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Really?
I feel like queens are way more useful than roaches later into the game. I go up to 5 queens, because you need 5 queens when you are 'settled' (3 for bases, 1 for macro hatch, 1 for creep spread, but a lot of pros recently go to 6 queens because they use 2 queens to spread creep - i find 5 is more than enough for defensive purposes and 1 creep spread queen is enough).
Roaches just kill your econ so much to get before third... just destroys it. They cost soooo much in supply, gas, etc.
I mean, I never had trouble with reactor hellion back in the day, when I would go 3 queens, 1 spine, some lings at 40. Maybe I am just not making those handful of lings, but your third is still delayed, and your forced to go 2 base macro hatch lair. i think with 5 queen and just a few lings at 40+, I could probably take my third earlier than normal, but still might have to make that macro hatch or lair before third...
I feel ling/bane is a lot better than roaches against marauder/hellion. I've had no problem against marauder/hellion using ling/bane and just getting a flank and good baneling control (make sure no banes hit marauders, just box or hotkey the banes so they run past marauders... but that's basic control, i dont think anyone in masters lets their banes hit anything other than marines).
It's not pressure, or anything I have trouble with, stim, marauders, banshees, mech, etc. It's just reactor hellion - I thought I could be greedier because of the new patch, but I just find I have to play exactly like I did before the patch, which makes me wonder wtf aren't terrans just using it since it still 'works' in delaying the third and creep spread.
I feel a roach warren at 375/75 for 3 roaches is just way too much of an investment. i dont think terrans will fear an all-in either if they see me go for a third or have extra queens. and wonder why terrans dont do it still
Sorry, i think I'm just knocking down advice when I asked for it. Back before the patch, when someone went reactor hellion, you had a choice basically - go 2 base macro hatch lair and be forced to make 50 drones on 2 base macro hatch lair before making lings up to about 60-70 then taking your third with them because making lings anytime before 2 base saturation just hurt your econ too much, or an early roach warren to secure your third. The roach warren into third was better for styles that didnt require a lot of gas at lair but a quicker hive (infestor play), while 2 base macro hatch was better if you needed a lot of gas at lair tech (mutas), but neither was particularly better than the other because the roach warren cost so damn much, but each pretty much evened out.
I guess I'll just play against it like I did back pre-patch, except with a 4th queen and 5th queen instead of 2 spines, and make sure to get a few lings out at 40.
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I tend to drop the roach warren after dropping my third. You shouldn't be afraid to let your third take some damage, hellions take years to do damage to buildings.
I don't see how any amount of hellions "forces" you to delay your third. Because of queen range you can spread creep even with hellions there.
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I havent played for half a year and just bought a new account to start playing again. I played Zerg on high master before but I'm in Diamond at the moment and I'm just wondering which maps are terrible and which ones are not hehe.
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On July 10 2012 20:25 Slakter wrote:
I havent played for half a year and just bought a new account to start playing again. I played Zerg on high master before but I'm in Diamond at the moment and I'm just wondering which maps are terrible and which ones are not hehe.
My vetoes are:
- Shakuras
- Entombed
- Tal'darim
Shakuras: Third is miles away and the middle is a giant choke. It's too easy to play a 50-50 map split which favors the other races imo. Once you get the close position natural as a third you basically get a free 4th as T or P.
Entombed: Close spawns is just horrendous, the little alleyway from base to base just makes it impossible to catch your opponent out in the open.
Tal'darim: Rocks on the third shouldn't exist. If it didn't I would love this map, despite some rotational symmetry weirdness with the lowground stuff at your natural.
I feel condemned ridge is extremely zerg favored due to the size and the third being really wide open.
I like cloud kingdom although the numbers indicate it's T/P favored due to the fairly safe third.
Ohana..... I think it's good, but the rush distance from natural to natural feels too short, it's probably me being spoiled though.
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@ Belial88
Yeah just protecting your ramps is the most crucial key in defending vs hellion damage. You can either do a pre-patch Ret style where he delays gas to get a quick 3rd hatch (uses it to help block natural, and ramp) then go into muta, or IdrA style with 2-hatch quick gas. In the IdrA case I usually use my Evo Chambers to block the ramps. More wall means you need less lings to prevent them from sneaking in.
I play mutas myself more oten than not, and I prefer the Ret style. More larva just makes me feeler safer, as opposed to banking on my earlier mutas needing to do damage.
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So I've been running into nothing but early game aggression. After the games (6 out of 8 just in the last few hours) I'm told the reason they all-in is because "Zerg OP" and that I should get better instead of getting mad. However, I am simply stumped at what to do. The real problem I find is that there's certain map features that make them unbelievably imbalanced and powerful and thusly I have absolutely no clue how to stop them.
For starters, I give you a replay of a ZvT in which the Terran goes for 1 rax in his main to make it look normal but then 1 proxy rax somewhere out on the map. Normally I figure I can hold an 11/11 and go into a normal game, but not this time.
Although I do not suspect a proxy rax anywhere due to the HP on his rax in his main being about where it should be, almost as soon as my natural is about to finish, I see a bunch of surprise SCVs show up and instantly build 3 bunkers. Here's the catch, the 3 bunkers are a perfect sim city on that ramp. Of course since his SCVs finish the bunkers and line up on the opposite side, I can't even kill them so the 3-4 SCVs can just repair the bunkers forever. He has a good amount of marines filling them too and since there's 3 bunkers there's no chance to save the natural. Even once the hatch died and I tried breaking it with 2 spines 2 queens and a bunch of lings, I came to the realization that I couldn't figure out an option that would allow me to even break out. The perfect sim city prevented even touching the SCVs. With 3 bunkers and so many marines in them, the DPS was far too strong for even 2 spines 2 queens and a bunch of lings to crack one of them.
Now aside from the obvious "well you opened 15 hatch", is there any way to break this if a T sets it up? He could've sent his workers or his marines at any given time so its not a "well you should scout it better" easy-fix. I suppose I could've pulled earlier to the ramp but then he would've just chased me back into the nat with his scv/marine combo.
Replay
Another thing a Terran did on Shakuras was box the bottom of my ramp in with 2 bunkers and proceed to move marines up. With my nat cut off from my main and effectively sim citied, there was next to nothing I could figure out how to do except build 2 spines and queens and then double-expand once I got through.
What's really killing me is these "perfect sim city" early cheese builds that are so effective mostly because the maps seem really shitty. The bunkers clearly have room around them and even a small path between them that units should be able to get through, but for some reason can't. Its just as bad as a pylon/cannon wall except it only requires 2 bunkers instead of 3 pylons + cannon or two.
Although I didn't upload a replay for the other thing that killed me, I think describing it will be sufficient.
Its ZvP and basically after a pylon block of the natural hatch, I go with my drone to simply make a hatch at the third base. While I was making my hatch, I move a drone down to the natural to check for if he canceled the pylon or let it finish. Not only did he let it finish but I saw two cannons warping in right at the bottom of the ramp. What baffled me even more was that these 2 small cannons actually sim citied the ramp very tightly. Again, its these stupid sim-cities that can be made for practically no cost and putting them in a significant lead without any way for me to counter it. So of course I couldn't even get drones out or attack or do anything at all so I just left.
Is there any way to stop these cheap as hell and very easy to do at no cost to P or T rushes? Seriously 2 bunkers while just rallying the 1-2 marines at a time from the main feels like a retarded build, yet there was nothing I felt I could do. Nor should 2 measly cannons be able to not only be ling/drone-tight, but then give a significant advantage from not putting P behind (just like the bunkers didn't put T behind at all).
I know that things like this can be stopped with a simple adding of a supply depot at the bottom of the ramps, but Blizz is too retarded to do that. Do I really have to hurt the hell out of my economy by pulling 3-4 drones in every matchup but mirror and running around like a madman trying to see if they did anything like this?
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The rough timing that a bunker can start for a bunker rush build is 2:50 (i think?) so if you aren't able to get up his ramp with a drone scout or you simply don't scout at all you should have a drone checking your natural hatch at this time. Once you establish how committed he his to doing the bunker rush (more than 1 scv = fairly all in) you should be pulling a lot of drones and targetting down the marines and building scvs. 1 or 2 marines can't kill drones without dieing quickly. It's also really important to stick to your build.. ie. Get at least 1 queen, get lings and maybe a spine if he's really all-in. If you sit there trying to micro your drones too much and you pile up 300 minerals you lose.
In regards to the ramp blocks with bunkers/pylon it's quite a simple answer, keep that drone out in front of the hatch (as long as you know there are no bunkers behind the mineral lines) and if you see an attempt at a ramp block you just stick your drone on hold position where the blocking buildings need to be then pull a lot of your drones to kill the impending marines/cannons. There's about 20 second window where these rushes can occur effectively, that scouting drone loses about 20 minerals. Are you really at a level where 20minerals is going to make a difference?
A: No.
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I think the main thing is holding the watchtower with your scouting drone or just checking his front to see if he has more than 1 scv out. If he does you have to overreact. Pull all but a couple of workers and just kill whatever shows up until you have lings.
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On July 11 2012 00:40 Bearwidme wrote:
The rough timing that a bunker can start for a bunker rush build is 2:50 (i think?) so if you aren't able to get up his ramp with a drone scout or you simply don't scout at all you should have a drone checking your natural hatch at this time. Once you establish how committed he his to doing the bunker rush (more than 1 scv = fairly all in) you should be pulling a lot of drones and targetting down the marines and building scvs. 1 or 2 marines can't kill drones without dieing quickly. It's also really important to stick to your build.. ie. Get at least 1 queen, get lings and maybe a spine if he's really all-in. If you sit there trying to micro your drones too much and you pile up 300 minerals you lose.
In regards to the ramp blocks with bunkers/pylon it's quite a simple answer, keep that drone out in front of the hatch (as long as you know there are no bunkers behind the mineral lines) and if you see an attempt at a ramp block you just stick your drone on hold position where the blocking buildings need to be then pull a lot of your drones to kill the impending marines/cannons. There's about 20 second window where these rushes can occur effectively, that scouting drone loses about 20 minerals. Are you really at a level where 20minerals is going to make a difference?
A: No.
I wish you would look at the replay or at least read my post before making a response. Let me repeat what was in the post in response to yours in order:
-I scouted his main. No gas. Barracks in position to make a wall had sufficient HP to not warrant suspicion.
-He pulled multiple SCVs and perfectly sim citied the large ramp of my natural on Shakuras. You can't kill the SCVs because its blocked. You can't kill the marines because they're safely behind the bunker wall.
-*Edit*- His SCVs sneaked around a back path so holding the zel'naga tower would've done nothing. Overlords aren't in position yet at the time of his scv move-out.
-I did stick to my build. I got queens and spines and lings in response.
-I did not stop making offensive units the instant the bunkers started going down.
-There could be no drone micro since sim city.
-Putting one drone there is insufficient to stop him. He puts down 1 cannon and then attacks the drone. When I move the drone and pull more from the line, by the time the drones from the line get down there its too late and he's sim citied the 2nd cannon in.
-The window is much larger than 20 game seconds.
In short I already know all the simple fixes that supposedly work but these rushes were at different timings than anything that has been mentioned or shown in detail on these forums and therefore I have great difficulty predicting these rushes (having never seen them or seen reference of them).
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On July 10 2012 17:53 Belial88 wrote:
Really?
I feel like queens are way more useful than roaches later into the game. I go up to 5 queens, because you need 5 queens when you are 'settled' (3 for bases, 1 for macro hatch, 1 for creep spread, but a lot of pros recently go to 6 queens because they use 2 queens to spread creep - i find 5 is more than enough for defensive purposes and 1 creep spread queen is enough).
Roaches just kill your econ so much to get before third... just destroys it. They cost soooo much in supply, gas, etc.
I mean, I never had trouble with reactor hellion back in the day, when I would go 3 queens, 1 spine, some lings at 40. Maybe I am just not making those handful of lings, but your third is still delayed, and your forced to go 2 base macro hatch lair. i think with 5 queen and just a few lings at 40+, I could probably take my third earlier than normal, but still might have to make that macro hatch or lair before third...
I feel ling/bane is a lot better than roaches against marauder/hellion. I've had no problem against marauder/hellion using ling/bane and just getting a flank and good baneling control (make sure no banes hit marauders, just box or hotkey the banes so they run past marauders... but that's basic control, i dont think anyone in masters lets their banes hit anything other than marines).
It's not pressure, or anything I have trouble with, stim, marauders, banshees, mech, etc. It's just reactor hellion - I thought I could be greedier because of the new patch, but I just find I have to play exactly like I did before the patch, which makes me wonder wtf aren't terrans just using it since it still 'works' in delaying the third and creep spread.
I feel a roach warren at 375/75 for 3 roaches is just way too much of an investment. i dont think terrans will fear an all-in either if they see me go for a third or have extra queens. and wonder why terrans dont do it still
Sorry, i think I'm just knocking down advice when I asked for it. Back before the patch, when someone went reactor hellion, you had a choice basically - go 2 base macro hatch lair and be forced to make 50 drones on 2 base macro hatch lair before making lings up to about 60-70 then taking your third with them because making lings anytime before 2 base saturation just hurt your econ too much, or an early roach warren to secure your third. The roach warren into third was better for styles that didnt require a lot of gas at lair but a quicker hive (infestor play), while 2 base macro hatch was better if you needed a lot of gas at lair tech (mutas), but neither was particularly better than the other because the roach warren cost so damn much, but each pretty much evened out.
I guess I'll just play against it like I did back pre-patch, except with a 4th queen and 5th queen instead of 2 spines, and make sure to get a few lings out at 40.
If you get an early roach warren, you can play defensively with roach/speedling instead of speedling/slow baneling.
I usually go fast 3rd with 6 queens, sending 2 queens to cover the 3rd while it builds, and then make roach warren and double gas. If he is bugging you with hellions you make the roaches before speed, if he doesn't make enough hellions, you get speed first and can skip the roaches.
Then as a reaction to any pushes you can make up to 10-12 roaches and mass speedling, so you don't need a defensive baneling nest at this point in the game.
You are right that this style suits infestor better than it suits mutalisk, but I think it is always better than staying two base.
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I havent played for half a year and just bought a new account to start playing again. I played Zerg on high master before but I'm in Diamond at the moment and I'm just wondering which maps are terrible and which ones are not hehe.
Shakuras isn't as bad anymore because Terran can no longer derp onto 3 base eventually with siege tanks and mass ghosts and win every fucking game with split map. Ghosts were soo bad... I veto Entombed, TDA, Antiga. Antiga has close spawns more often than not, you can get sieged by main/third on close spawns, terran dropping you from their third/main to your main/third is a huge pain in the ass, the map is useless for mutas, can't take a fourth while T/P takes an easy third. Cliff abuse. I'd much rather play Shakuras than Antiga. Shakuras isn't that bad anymore with no more ghosts, and yea T/P get an easier 4th, but their 3rd is much harder to defend, lots of airspace to use mutas, and their 5+ bases are really hard to get.
If you get an early roach warren, you can play defensively with roach/speedling instead of speedling/slow baneling.
I usually go fast 3rd with 6 queens, sending 2 queens to cover the 3rd while it builds, and then make roach warren and double gas. If he is bugging you with hellions you make the roaches before speed, if he doesn't make enough hellions, you get speed first and can skip the roaches.
I never see pros make roaches against 1 rax FE reactor hellion though, nor do I ever have trouble with it. I go 5 queen with gas around 30 for speed. I find queen/speeling stops any 2 base all-in pretty easily though.
It's just reactor hellion expands, like from back in the day, that I am having trouble with.
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On July 10 2012 17:53 Belial88 wrote:
Really?
I feel like queens are way more useful than roaches later into the game. I go up to 5 queens, because you need 5 queens when you are 'settled' (3 for bases, 1 for macro hatch, 1 for creep spread, but a lot of pros recently go to 6 queens because they use 2 queens to spread creep - i find 5 is more than enough for defensive purposes and 1 creep spread queen is enough).
Roaches just kill your econ so much to get before third... just destroys it. They cost soooo much in supply, gas, etc.
I mean, I never had trouble with reactor hellion back in the day, when I would go 3 queens, 1 spine, some lings at 40. Maybe I am just not making those handful of lings, but your third is still delayed, and your forced to go 2 base macro hatch lair. i think with 5 queen and just a few lings at 40+, I could probably take my third earlier than normal, but still might have to make that macro hatch or lair before third...
I feel ling/bane is a lot better than roaches against marauder/hellion. I've had no problem against marauder/hellion using ling/bane and just getting a flank and good baneling control (make sure no banes hit marauders, just box or hotkey the banes so they run past marauders... but that's basic control, i dont think anyone in masters lets their banes hit anything other than marines).
It's not pressure, or anything I have trouble with, stim, marauders, banshees, mech, etc. It's just reactor hellion - I thought I could be greedier because of the new patch, but I just find I have to play exactly like I did before the patch, which makes me wonder wtf aren't terrans just using it since it still 'works' in delaying the third and creep spread.
I feel a roach warren at 375/75 for 3 roaches is just way too much of an investment. i dont think terrans will fear an all-in either if they see me go for a third or have extra queens. and wonder why terrans dont do it still
Sorry, i think I'm just knocking down advice when I asked for it. Back before the patch, when someone went reactor hellion, you had a choice basically - go 2 base macro hatch lair and be forced to make 50 drones on 2 base macro hatch lair before making lings up to about 60-70 then taking your third with them because making lings anytime before 2 base saturation just hurt your econ too much, or an early roach warren to secure your third. The roach warren into third was better for styles that didnt require a lot of gas at lair but a quicker hive (infestor play), while 2 base macro hatch was better if you needed a lot of gas at lair tech (mutas), but neither was particularly better than the other because the roach warren cost so damn much, but each pretty much evened out.
I guess I'll just play against it like I did back pre-patch, except with a 4th queen and 5th queen instead of 2 spines, and make sure to get a few lings out at 40.
Hm, I think it's mostly a style thing then. I am uncomfortable leaving terran with hellion based map control, and a few hellions actively blocking the third almost always loses me that first drone I send to take it, even with an overlord spotting for hellions and sending queens forward. I really like a fast third though, and my lair is as late as I can get away with., I guess I am catching back up after roaches after that? Roach does eat into econ, but so does 3 extra queens, if we're thinking longer term. Also, gainst random earlier pushes (pre-9 min I guess), my experience is that roaches are more reliable than banes. Could just be that my low queen count reduces creep spread and so I can't get the most out of slow banes, and my lair is later so I can't count on bane speed. Very different.
I guess the best way I can put it is that roaches smooth out the transition to lair and third. You never feel stuck on queens and slow lings or whatever, and you don't lose because some gosu splitting and target fire took out all 4-6 banes you had at the tine. But again, it sounds like you play a different kind of zvt than I do. Wish I could be of more help; i guess best bet is watch ret play (almost always 6 queens) and study his hellion denial? He's done both good and bad with it recently (I think I'm talking NASL games in the last few weeks), he wins a game off the ridiculous econ it gives him and I heard he lost a game by losing 30+ drones to a hellion runby. Will try to find them and edit them in.
EDIT: Ret vs thorzain in NASL wildcards (http://youtu.be/B_D7vAmrwzQ); reactor hellion (yeah thorzain really passive) meets well-controlled 6 queen into muta ling bane. This game makes me want to use the 6 queen build more, but brings up something else--third before muta on 6 queens, which sounds different from what you're doing. ret gets lair a little before his third finishes, which is probably a full minute after what it sounds like you're doing. Dunno if it's a greed thing or a vs thorzain thing, but maybe worth considering.
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Sorry, repeating this because it never got answered: "
1-5 gates hes expoing? This might just be my league [diamond] but I've seen a 5 gate 1 robo immortal all in that cut probes completely at about 40. It was robo first too, so tons and tons of immortals. Is something like that bad enough I should just consider it an outlier and interpret 5 gates as an expo build?"
edit:Belial said I should scout 2 base zvz all ins by watching the drone count at his natural, but on a lot of maps I either cant get an overlord to watch that or I cant get it in time, building 4 lings and morphing them into banes usually gets me killed [and I simply cant produce enough to react when I see it leave his base]. Is this just a micro/macro fail on my part or on bigger maps where I cant get that overlord near his natural mineral line, should I err on the side of caution and get a bit more early defence?
edit2: i always have a spine with a baneling nest obstructing it from ling surrounds.
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On July 11 2012 04:43 whatevername wrote:
Sorry, repeating this because it never got answered: "
1-5 gates hes expoing? This might just be my league [diamond] but I've seen a 5 gate 1 robo immortal all in that cut probes completely at about 40. It was robo first too, so tons and tons of immortals. Is something like that bad enough I should just consider it an outlier and interpret 5 gates as an expo build?"
edit:Belial said I should scout 2 base zvz all ins by watching the drone count at his natural, but on a lot of maps I either cant get an overlord to watch that or I cant get it in time, building 4 lings and morphing them into banes usually gets me killed [and I simply cant produce enough to react when I see it leave his base]. Is this just a micro/macro fail on my part or on bigger maps where I cant get that overlord near his natural mineral line, should I err on the side of caution and get a bit more early defence?
edit2: i always have a spine with a baneling nest obstructing it from ling surrounds.
EDIT: that's the 1 base robo you're talking about? either way, should be in belial's zvp guide.
I can't think of a single map where you can't get an overlord there except metropolis, and even then you can poke in with an overlord without issues, it's just not 95% safe like antiga or others.
4 banes is a lot of anti ling defense, sounds like a micro issue. Macro issue is possible, of course, but those 4 banes plus spine to snipe enemy banes plus double queen block (ideally with transfuses) beats everything.
Note that belial doesn't block with bane nest. I also put nest in main, just safer that way.
Erring on the side of defense is not as strong here as just scouting. send in a ling to check army, have an extra overlord near their base, make sure you have overlords over attack paths or bane morph spots near your base. Stopping 2 base is about scouting, an extra 4 lings are nothing compared to a full two inject of lings that you can prepare should you spot his all-in coming.
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edit:Belial said I should scout 2 base zvz all ins by watching the drone count at his natural, but on a lot of maps I either cant get an overlord to watch that or I cant get it in time, building 4 lings and morphing them into banes usually gets me killed [and I simply cant produce enough to react when I see it leave his base]. Is this just a micro/macro fail on my part or on bigger maps where I cant get that overlord near his natural mineral line, should I err on the side of caution and get a bit more early defence?
edit2: i always have a spine with a baneling nest obstructing it from ling surrounds.
How can you not get an overlord to watch in time? Your starting overlord should be sent to the opponent's natural immediately. You should be able to get it to their base on every 2 player map, and on most 4 player maps, in time. Hotkey your first two overlords so you can re-direct them as necessary, especially on 4 player maps or against randoms.
Sounds like you are just failing with micro/macro in the beginning stages of the game. If you watch pros, you will notice they always send their overlords out to very specific locations, along very specific routes, every single game, and 99% of people send their overlords in the exact same ways, every time. It's because every single zerg out there has figured out, for themselves, where to best send their overlord, and it just happens to be theres basically 1 correct answer for that.
Sorry, repeating this because it never got answered: "
1-5 gates hes expoing? This might just be my league [diamond] but I've seen a 5 gate 1 robo immortal all in that cut probes completely at about 40. It was robo first too, so tons and tons of immortals. Is something like that bad enough I should just consider it an outlier and interpret 5 gates as an expo build?"
Sounds like you have some macro problems. Are you hitting at least 65 supply by 8:00? This should be easily attainable if you are in diamond.
If he went robo first, that still only means he can get 3 immortals at most for his push, which would probably delay his push at least 20 seconds and means no warp prism to aggressively warp in your face, and/or no observer. But 5 gates just means he can't really make much at all. That or his push is late as shit.
An immortal/sentry all-in should be shooting your base by 10:30, as in he's pushing out by 9:30 and already on creep around 10:15.
Immortal/sentry all-in is pretty damn rough, but you should be massing roach/ling after 8:30, maybe 8:00. You can either go base trade by, if he pushes out (you have a ling at watch towers right?) and mass spines in your nat and just sac your third if he decides to commit and then you kill his nat (or like hyun, just striaght up full base trade) or you can just lose the third but kill his entire army off and end up ahead because you have a ton of units (leenock does this). It's not exactly easy to deal with, but 5 gate robo should be easy to deal with, if you face someone in diamond that does that... If he hits at 11:00+, then you should crush his army.
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What's the best way to deal with masses of marines in the (relative) early game? I played a game just now where my opponent did a bizarre 2rax + 1 proxy rax opening where he managed to pump out 9 marines in time to arrive at my natural at 34 supply (all without cutting SCVs). I caught him coming with my ling in front of his base, but there wasn't time to morph any spines, and I had to defend with 9 lings and 2 queens. I obviously got slaughtered, and was left wondering what I could have done. He walled so I couldn't scout after my initial drone, of course, and this wasn't a true 2rax to begin with so there weren't any of the typical warning signs. Speed wasn't done (I open with gas rather than 4queens), and we were close spawns on Entombed so he arrived when my static defense was half done.
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On July 11 2012 08:31 Hemingway wrote:
What's the best way to deal with masses of marines in the (relative) early game? I played a game just now where my opponent did a bizarre 2rax + 1 proxy rax opening where he managed to pump out 9 marines in time to arrive at my natural at 34 supply (all without cutting SCVs). I caught him coming with my ling in front of his base, but there wasn't time to morph any spines, and I had to defend with 9 lings and 2 queens. I obviously got slaughtered, and was left wondering what I could have done. He walled so I couldn't scout after my initial drone, of course, and this wasn't a true 2rax to begin with so there weren't any of the typical warning signs. Speed wasn't done (I open with gas rather than 4queens), and we were close spawns on Entombed so he arrived when my static defense was half done.
Excellent detail in the post! For close positions, it becomes extra extra tricky, and you have to invest in a little defense and not get overly greedy. (2 Queens, 0 Spine with Gas is greedy) You have to blindly commit to getting extra queens, up to 3-5 (This is slowly becoming a norm anyway) or make just a single spine or a few extra lings to be safe.
I don't consider Zerglings, or even Speed Zerglings larva + cost efficient early on for a Zerg. Much rather just leave it to queens, spines, forcing him not to engage, or banelings. It becomes a game of chance that early on, I believe your best response is to throw down a blind baneling nest in close positions considering you open gas. (What if he brings all his scvs? You still can lose with a few spines or extra queens)
If he continues just massing marines, safest bet is to continue adding spines as you need them and saturate 2-base as fast as you can. The important thing in this scenario is to scout his gas (suicide Overlord) he'll probably have an expansion, if not and you have spines+banes he can't bust you off 1 base and he's doomed. I remember a Losira game where the T massed marines (Proxy 2rax, expansion behind it, more rax+marines, late gas) and he just built 8 SPINES. He won by saturating 2base, and following up with lots of ling+bane busting.
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On July 11 2012 08:52 Slardar wrote:
Excellent detail in the post! For close positions, it becomes extra extra tricky, and you have to invest in a little defense and not get overly greedy. (2 Queens, 0 Spine with Gas is greedy) You have to blindly commit to getting extra queens, up to 3-5 (This is slowly becoming a norm anyway) or make just a single spine or a few extra lings to be safe.
I don't consider Zerglings, or even Speed Zerglings larva + cost efficient early on for a Zerg. Much rather just leave it to queens, spines, forcing him not to engage, or banelings. It becomes a game of chance that early on, I believe your best response is to throw down a blind baneling nest in close positions considering you open gas. (What if he brings all his scvs? You still can lose with a few spines or extra queens)
If he continues just massing marines, safest bet is to continue adding spines as you need them and saturate 2-base as fast as you can. The important thing in this scenario is to scout his gas (suicide Overlord) he'll probably have an expansion, if not and you have spines+banes he can't bust you off 1 base and he's doomed. I remember a Losira game where the T massed marines (Proxy 2rax, expansion behind it, more rax+marines, late gas) and he just built 8 SPINES. He won by saturating 2base, and following up with lots of ling+bane busting.
That's fair, at least one blind spine shouldn't hurt me too badly economically, especially while my macro isn't good enough to make it matter. However, I'd rather not throw down a baneling nest that early every game, especially since I generally pull drones for a larva cycle once I hit 100 gas. Perhaps I'll move my third queen (the one I use to spread creep) up in the supply order a bit. If I keep losing to this kind of stuff, I'll certainly take your advice and go blind baneling nest when it's close positions. Thanks!
P.S. I open gas rather than queens so that I force Terran to consider the possibility of early baneling and/or roach aggression (not to mention disguising it if I actually do want to go with that play), and since I prefer the options this gives me I doubt I'll be hopping on the mass queen bandwagon  .
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If he doesn't have a base by 30 supply at the natural, which your overlord directly to spot for, your starting overlord, then you should be extremely alarmed.
Dont just write off what you scout too - you saw he blocked off his base. Scouting means you can be greedier. If you don't get to scout, you have to play honest, do things like make a spine or 2 extra queens (why aren't you making 4+ queens anyways?), get gas for speed, etcetera.
Dont worry about in-base CC - if it's not at the new base, it's not a new base. Yea, mule and scv production is nice, but it doesn't really do much compared to actually taking another base. If that were true terran would just go 4 OC on 1 base and win, but you can't do that, you need your other base.
2 spines would easily own any 2-3 rax scv all-in (which is how you deal with such all-ins). You should have made a single spine in case of mass rax all-ins, while continuing with your normal build (4 queen, gas for speed, whatever you do normally), and get evo and some lings and banes at the necessary timings. Seeing him walk out from his base is also plenty of time to throw down a spine, I dont know why you say it isn't, and also, you can make more than 1 spine. Make 3 spines, because you know he'll probably force a cancel on 1 of them, et cetera.
P.S. I open gas rather than queens so that I force Terran to consider the possibility of early baneling and/or roach aggression (not to mention disguising it if I actually do want to go with that play), and since I prefer the options this gives me I doubt I'll be hopping on the mass queen bandwagon .
Terrans know you aren't doing bane or roach aggression when they see you haven't taken a third. Or, they know you are doing it because you took a third. Opening gas doesn't really do much to change terran's build order, they still HAVE to get a bunker after CC if they go 1 rax FE (if they open 1 base or rax/gas then they dont care you got gas at all), and they'll just be cautious but won't be any less greedier or less thorough with scouting...
i mean, why not open 6 pool to force people to consider the possibility of mass lings in their base? it hurts your econ too much. thats an extreme example... and if you like to get gas early on, that's fine, but dont think that you are somehow forcing terran to hurt himself more than you hurt yourself economically.
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On July 11 2012 09:51 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +P.S. I open gas rather than queens so that I force Terran to consider the possibility of early baneling and/or roach aggression (not to mention disguising it if I actually do want to go with that play), and since I prefer the options this gives me I doubt I'll be hopping on the mass queen bandwagon . Terrans know you aren't doing bane or roach aggression when they see you haven't taken a third. Or, they know you are doing it because you took a third. Opening gas doesn't really do much to change terran's build order, they still HAVE to get a bunker after CC if they go 1 rax FE (if they open 1 base or rax/gas then they dont care you got gas at all), and they'll just be cautious but won't be any less greedier or less thorough with scouting... i mean, why not open 6 pool to force people to consider the possibility of mass lings in their base? it hurts your econ too much. thats an extreme example... and if you like to get gas early on, that's fine, but dont think that you are somehow forcing terran to hurt himself more than you hurt yourself economically.
Are you sure? Because I've seen posts from pros (notably Idra) saying that opening gas (I believe Idra was talking about Stephano specifically) can be advantageous because he can do a huge all-in or play greedy macro style and the opener doesn't give it away. On the other hand, mass queens is pretty indicative of playing for a longer game. And besides that, speed denies scouting so he'd have to use a scan to check on the third base, would he not? And that'd be the scan normally used to check tech path.
On another note: queens seem to be weak to hellion run-bys, especially en masse. I've seen everyone from Jecho to Idra lose huge amounts of drones to a well-microed run-by from early hellion pressure, whereas when I open gas and get early roaches plus speedlings I completely shut down hellion play with barely a second thought. What's your stance on that?
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EPT
