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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 12 2012 05:48 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:04 whatevername wrote:On July 11 2012 20:55 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 13:15 Bearwidme wrote:On July 11 2012 01:34 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 00:40 Bearwidme wrote:
The rough timing that a bunker can start for a bunker rush build is 2:50 (i think?) so if you aren't able to get up his ramp with a drone scout or you simply don't scout at all you should have a drone checking your natural hatch at this time. Once you establish how committed he his to doing the bunker rush (more than 1 scv = fairly all in) you should be pulling a lot of drones and targetting down the marines and building scvs. 1 or 2 marines can't kill drones without dieing quickly. It's also really important to stick to your build.. ie. Get at least 1 queen, get lings and maybe a spine if he's really all-in. If you sit there trying to micro your drones too much and you pile up 300 minerals you lose.
In regards to the ramp blocks with bunkers/pylon it's quite a simple answer, keep that drone out in front of the hatch (as long as you know there are no bunkers behind the mineral lines) and if you see an attempt at a ramp block you just stick your drone on hold position where the blocking buildings need to be then pull a lot of your drones to kill the impending marines/cannons. There's about 20 second window where these rushes can occur effectively, that scouting drone loses about 20 minerals. Are you really at a level where 20minerals is going to make a difference?
A: No. I wish you would look at the replay or at least read my post before making a response. Let me repeat what was in the post in response to yours in order: -I scouted his main. No gas. Barracks in position to make a wall had sufficient HP to not warrant suspicion. -He pulled multiple SCVs and perfectly sim citied the large ramp of my natural on Shakuras. You can't kill the SCVs because its blocked. You can't kill the marines because they're safely behind the bunker wall. -*Edit*- His SCVs sneaked around a back path so holding the zel'naga tower would've done nothing. Overlords aren't in position yet at the time of his scv move-out. -I did stick to my build. I got queens and spines and lings in response. -I did not stop making offensive units the instant the bunkers started going down. -There could be no drone micro since sim city. -Putting one drone there is insufficient to stop him. He puts down 1 cannon and then attacks the drone. When I move the drone and pull more from the line, by the time the drones from the line get down there its too late and he's sim citied the 2nd cannon in. -The window is much larger than 20 game seconds. In short I already know all the simple fixes that supposedly work but these rushes were at different timings than anything that has been mentioned or shown in detail on these forums and therefore I have great difficulty predicting these rushes (having never seen them or seen reference of them). - No gas is a warning sign that there's a possible proxy. I watched the replay and you're right, it is a different variation to a normal bunker rush, the terrible variation. It's a gimicky build that shouldn't work. In fact the only reason it did work is because your pool was 15 (ingame) seconds late. Watch the replay again and look at the timings of your queens/spines/lings and see what could have happened if you had them up 15 seconds earlier. To be fair though i don't know if you can hold that once the bunkers are up and repaired. It's a prevent it from starting thing, rather than a respond to it late thing. I agree with this assessment, I've been frustrated at finding a greedy-as-possible-without-losing-straight-up option. Hearing that once its up it really is unbreakable and not just some oversight by me does clear things up. From now on I'm just going earlier pool vs T if I see no gas in the main. I had been trying 16/17 pools vs T lately but I'm finding the couple of mins they give isn't worth the risks of Ts who have no skill so they just pull their whole economy and marine rush with every resource within the first 5 minutes. I dont think thats smart. 16 pool is pretty standard, no gas openings are basically the go-to terran opener lately. The amount of times a terran is going to pull all his scvs is like, what, 1%? Your just hurting yourself economically every single game for the ever so slightly better chance of catching that all in wiith a sliiiightly better pool timing. edit: possible suggestion to what that guy did to you is simply abandon your nat and secure your main, continue on with fast upgrades on one base while you crawler push the bunkers out. If hes cut so much to KILL you, I dont think one basing it for a bit will spell doom for you especially if you get faster upgrades. I've seen destiny pull that off a number of times against similar crappy shit from t. Its just incredibly hard to judge how behind I am or how to recover from that because of how much weirdness tends to follow. I actually did that slow crawler push into double expand once I saw he took his nat during the aggression in another game against another all-in Terran. I had absolutely no idea how to judge when I should be expecting pushes or anything despite scouting with overlords in his main to see what the heck he was making. He ended up using hellions to tick off my expos since I was stuck on 1 base with just queen/ling for so long, and then cloaked banshees since my lair was so delayed from having no expos. I'm trying to cross over into masters league before the end of this season so I'll need advice from high leaguers who might have faced something like this from people who know how to transition out or who might be able to tell me how you follow up and scout what they're doing. These are pretty much the only things that I fully have no clue about when I see them I just freeze up and think a big long "uhhhhhh.... SHIT" in my head. *Edit* I dunno if masters is much different, but dia so far has been at least 1 in 3 all-ins from all 3 races. When I check their histories, most of them don't have games past 10 minutes and that makes me feel even worse for having lost to such crap players doing crap builds that I just have never seen or know what to expect.
As soon as I see I am up against a Diamond player, I play extremely safe, my openers in all MUs are now 14p/16h, unless the Zerg is doing a ling/bling allin, then I don't even go for expansion until I feel safe to take it.
I've played Protoss as my first race and ONLY did 4gate or aggressive 3gate/robo and got into Diamond league (when I was a complete noob), switched to Zerg and having problems against Diamond players since all they do is cheese.
I've kept track of all of my Diamond games once I got demoted to Platinum for some reason (even though I'm constantly in top 5, I get to rank 1, then lose to some random Gold League Zerg who went for some weird allin), and out of 26 Diamond games, 22 were cheeses, half of them wins, half not. Diamond league is like a huge cheese wasteland that you just have to face and go through, I occasionally meet a demoted Masters player who just wins me in a straight-on macro/greed game (played against a Terran who had 5 bases at 15 minutes), still haven't found a way to punish such a greedy player as Zerg, but that will come with practice.
All I can suggest is to have a safe build against everything and constantly keep an eye out what they're doing. If I run into some Diamond cheese newbie I actually sac 3-4 Overlords by the 12min mark, simply because I have no frickin' idea what are they doing.
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On July 12 2012 08:05 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:48 sCCrooked wrote:On July 12 2012 05:04 whatevername wrote:On July 11 2012 20:55 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 13:15 Bearwidme wrote:On July 11 2012 01:34 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 00:40 Bearwidme wrote:
The rough timing that a bunker can start for a bunker rush build is 2:50 (i think?) so if you aren't able to get up his ramp with a drone scout or you simply don't scout at all you should have a drone checking your natural hatch at this time. Once you establish how committed he his to doing the bunker rush (more than 1 scv = fairly all in) you should be pulling a lot of drones and targetting down the marines and building scvs. 1 or 2 marines can't kill drones without dieing quickly. It's also really important to stick to your build.. ie. Get at least 1 queen, get lings and maybe a spine if he's really all-in. If you sit there trying to micro your drones too much and you pile up 300 minerals you lose.
In regards to the ramp blocks with bunkers/pylon it's quite a simple answer, keep that drone out in front of the hatch (as long as you know there are no bunkers behind the mineral lines) and if you see an attempt at a ramp block you just stick your drone on hold position where the blocking buildings need to be then pull a lot of your drones to kill the impending marines/cannons. There's about 20 second window where these rushes can occur effectively, that scouting drone loses about 20 minerals. Are you really at a level where 20minerals is going to make a difference?
A: No. I wish you would look at the replay or at least read my post before making a response. Let me repeat what was in the post in response to yours in order: -I scouted his main. No gas. Barracks in position to make a wall had sufficient HP to not warrant suspicion. -He pulled multiple SCVs and perfectly sim citied the large ramp of my natural on Shakuras. You can't kill the SCVs because its blocked. You can't kill the marines because they're safely behind the bunker wall. -*Edit*- His SCVs sneaked around a back path so holding the zel'naga tower would've done nothing. Overlords aren't in position yet at the time of his scv move-out. -I did stick to my build. I got queens and spines and lings in response. -I did not stop making offensive units the instant the bunkers started going down. -There could be no drone micro since sim city. -Putting one drone there is insufficient to stop him. He puts down 1 cannon and then attacks the drone. When I move the drone and pull more from the line, by the time the drones from the line get down there its too late and he's sim citied the 2nd cannon in. -The window is much larger than 20 game seconds. In short I already know all the simple fixes that supposedly work but these rushes were at different timings than anything that has been mentioned or shown in detail on these forums and therefore I have great difficulty predicting these rushes (having never seen them or seen reference of them). - No gas is a warning sign that there's a possible proxy. I watched the replay and you're right, it is a different variation to a normal bunker rush, the terrible variation. It's a gimicky build that shouldn't work. In fact the only reason it did work is because your pool was 15 (ingame) seconds late. Watch the replay again and look at the timings of your queens/spines/lings and see what could have happened if you had them up 15 seconds earlier. To be fair though i don't know if you can hold that once the bunkers are up and repaired. It's a prevent it from starting thing, rather than a respond to it late thing. I agree with this assessment, I've been frustrated at finding a greedy-as-possible-without-losing-straight-up option. Hearing that once its up it really is unbreakable and not just some oversight by me does clear things up. From now on I'm just going earlier pool vs T if I see no gas in the main. I had been trying 16/17 pools vs T lately but I'm finding the couple of mins they give isn't worth the risks of Ts who have no skill so they just pull their whole economy and marine rush with every resource within the first 5 minutes. I dont think thats smart. 16 pool is pretty standard, no gas openings are basically the go-to terran opener lately. The amount of times a terran is going to pull all his scvs is like, what, 1%? Your just hurting yourself economically every single game for the ever so slightly better chance of catching that all in wiith a sliiiightly better pool timing. edit: possible suggestion to what that guy did to you is simply abandon your nat and secure your main, continue on with fast upgrades on one base while you crawler push the bunkers out. If hes cut so much to KILL you, I dont think one basing it for a bit will spell doom for you especially if you get faster upgrades. I've seen destiny pull that off a number of times against similar crappy shit from t. Its just incredibly hard to judge how behind I am or how to recover from that because of how much weirdness tends to follow. I actually did that slow crawler push into double expand once I saw he took his nat during the aggression in another game against another all-in Terran. I had absolutely no idea how to judge when I should be expecting pushes or anything despite scouting with overlords in his main to see what the heck he was making. He ended up using hellions to tick off my expos since I was stuck on 1 base with just queen/ling for so long, and then cloaked banshees since my lair was so delayed from having no expos. I'm trying to cross over into masters league before the end of this season so I'll need advice from high leaguers who might have faced something like this from people who know how to transition out or who might be able to tell me how you follow up and scout what they're doing. These are pretty much the only things that I fully have no clue about when I see them I just freeze up and think a big long "uhhhhhh.... SHIT" in my head. *Edit* I dunno if masters is much different, but dia so far has been at least 1 in 3 all-ins from all 3 races. When I check their histories, most of them don't have games past 10 minutes and that makes me feel even worse for having lost to such crap players doing crap builds that I just have never seen or know what to expect. As soon as I see I am up against a Diamond player, I play extremely safe, my openers in all MUs are now 14p/16h, unless the Zerg is doing a ling/bling allin, then I don't even go for expansion until I feel safe to take it. I've played Protoss as my first race and ONLY did 4gate or aggressive 3gate/robo and got into Diamond league (when I was a complete noob), switched to Zerg and having problems against Diamond players since all they do is cheese. I've kept track of all of my Diamond games once I got demoted to Platinum for some reason (even though I'm constantly in top 5, I get to rank 1, then lose to some random Gold League Zerg who went for some weird allin), and out of 26 Diamond games, 22 were cheeses, half of them wins, half not. Diamond league is like a huge cheese wasteland that you just have to face and go through, I occasionally meet a demoted Masters player who just wins me in a straight-on macro/greed game (played against a Terran who had 5 bases at 15 minutes), still haven't found a way to punish such a greedy player as Zerg, but that will come with practice. All I can suggest is to have a safe build against everything and constantly keep an eye out what they're doing. If I run into some Diamond cheese newbie I actually sac 3-4 Overlords by the 12min mark, simply because I have no frickin' idea what are they doing.
Actually, you bring up another situation I've found myself in lately. In ZvT if I open with say 4 queen mass drone into double evo ling/festor style, the Terran will get up to their medivac-spam stage and start doing double drop play at my third and main while doing a marine/maurader/medivac/tank(sometimes) push at my nat or third from the front. Its not this aggression that really hurts because I have learned how to split my army and put up spores at edges to catch the medivacs.
What really hurts is that while they have this big push and harassment going on, they double expand to a third and fourth and have bunkers + planetary by the time I have cleaned up all the stuff in my bases. Planetaries with bunkers/turrets and turtled tank or hellion + MMM balls are REALLY hard to break in the ling/festor stage. If I don't figure out some way to punish them harshly for this greed, they simply macro up this enormous army that they can keep being aggressive with. Its almost impossible to stop the flow of units. Even if I kill one entire army they have more defending the planetaries somehow if I try to counter them. If I do manage to take out a planetary, they just make another one elsewhere and drop+push one of my expos which usually kills it and then I'm way behind.
I'm looking into some of the bane burrowing tricks to lessen the time they have control of the map and have me playing defensively or into blowing up their mineral lines once they have established the bases.
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I am a diamond zerg (obviously) who wants to try out some of the more modern styles of ZvT, with fast 3rds, r/l/b aggression and such. I made a thread about my standard ZvT style, but if you read it you will see that it is pretty outdated and doesn't abuse the queen buff a lot. So if you could link me to some more modern styles I would be pretty happy 
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On July 12 2012 08:27 sCCrooked wrote:
Actually, you bring up another situation I've found myself in lately. In ZvT if I open with say 4 queen mass drone into double evo ling/festor style, the Terran will get up to their medivac-spam stage and start doing double drop play at my third and main while doing a marine/maurader/medivac/tank(sometimes) push at my nat or third from the front. Its not this aggression that really hurts because I have learned how to split my army and put up spores at edges to catch the medivacs.
What really hurts is that while they have this big push and harassment going on, they double expand to a third and fourth and have bunkers + planetary by the time I have cleaned up all the stuff in my bases. Planetaries with bunkers/turrets and turtled tank or hellion + MMM balls are REALLY hard to break in the ling/festor stage. If I don't figure out some way to punish them harshly for this greed, they simply macro up this enormous army that they can keep being aggressive with. Its almost impossible to stop the flow of units. Even if I kill one entire army they have more defending the planetaries somehow if I try to counter them. If I do manage to take out a planetary, they just make another one elsewhere and drop+push one of my expos which usually kills it and then I'm way behind.
I'm looking into some of the bane burrowing tricks to lessen the time they have control of the map and have me playing defensively or into blowing up their mineral lines once they have established the bases.
Sounds like you're not really holding it off, you're trading cost-inefficiently against the drops/push and it eats up so much of your army that you have nothing left with which to punish a double expand. If he can field enough army to fight you head on while dumping 800 minerals or more into those two expos, you're doing something wrong. It sounds like this is just one or two games where you got outplayed. And note that this is akin to muta harass to secure expos, followed by trading over and over on a higher econ to wear your opponent out. So just as a good terran defends against mutas by warding them away, you aren't succeeding by just holding against the drops, you want to be able to push them away with minimal damage.
And way back somewhere, someone mentioned that you autolose if 2rax terrans get a bunker up--that's not necessarily true, especially with the trend being to build the first bunker out of sight and range of the hatch to ensure that the first one goes up (or so I've seen demuslim prefer to do). Spined are the key to defending against that next bunker (well, against bunkers in general), which is the one that actually threatens your hatch, and queens now can help target down the scv, since this second bunker is later.
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On July 11 2012 23:59 huehuehuehue wrote:Hi, I just switched to zerg from terran, I was diamond as terran and I am currently in plat as zerg. Could anybody look at this ZvZ replay (I'm NIght in the rep) and tell me what am I doing wrong? http://drop.sc/218644
First of all, you scouted a 14/14 into expansion. This means you will see some light-medium ling pressure. You saw none, meaning your opponent was droning.
There's really no reason for two geysers that early in the game. An early roach all-in will use 1 while a later, 2 base all-in uses 3 (in my experiences as a high plat zerg 3 gas always means a roach all-in is incoming).
It's ok if you want to go +1 ranged earlier than roach warren, but you don't need a platoon of roaches to take an expansion. You saw your opponent expand, so it was the right move to take your own, but you can usually hold it with lings and banelings if you take it around 7 minutes (earlier with little pressure, later if suspecting an all-in).
On the previous note, defensive banelings enable you to drone hard during the early game. I usually take two drones off after speed and put down the baneling nest when gas goes past 50.
Saturation in the main was low. Since zerg takes more bases you can stick with 16 drones per 8 mineral patches and spread them out for optimal mining efficiency.
Anyway, the biggest reason you lost is because your opponent had 41ish drones for several minutes while you had 29 for that same period. Later it was 45 drones vs. 65 drones across the three bases. You could have competed with the army (especially with your upgrade advantage), but you didn't have the bank for it. Also decide if you want your midgame composition to be roach/infestor, roach/hydra, or infestor/ling. Actually, knowing your full game plan beforehand is essential for every matchup, so start deciding if you don't already have one!
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I have a question following on from my new infestor/ling/ultra style in Z v Z. I feel very vulnerable to Mutas because when I go double upgrades first, my lair is so late that I can't get an overseer into his base until very late.
What is the remedy to this problem?
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On July 12 2012 15:49 Walitgon wrote:
I have a question following on from my new infestor/ling/ultra style in Z v Z. I feel very vulnerable to Mutas because when I go double upgrades first, my lair is so late that I can't get an overseer into his base until very late.
What is the remedy to this problem?
In my opinion just make sure you have spores in main and nat and build extra queens, (I prefer to have at least 4 across all my MU's preferably). I find thats enough to at least ward off Muta play until your lair comes and you can invest into options to properly deal with it (Hydra and or Infestor).
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On July 12 2012 15:49 Walitgon wrote:
I have a question following on from my new infestor/ling/ultra style in Z v Z. I feel very vulnerable to Mutas because when I go double upgrades first, my lair is so late that I can't get an overseer into his base until very late.
What is the remedy to this problem?
You should have an overlord behind your opponents base. If he is taking gases 3/4 early you should be expecting mutalisks and get spores up at a point you think mutas are going to be out. The ling/infestor/ultra style is really really strong vs a muta player because you can get your third before him and drone it up once you see the mutalisks. With ling/infestor/spine support if he tries an early roach attack with muta you will just crush it.
He will also be behind in upgrades since most muta players start upgrades after mutalisks are out so you will be going 2/2 when he is starting +1 or 1/1 if he is double upgrading. Then when you get hive you will have a great economy and better upgrades then him.
Make sure to get burrow though so you can potentially trap the mutalisks since they can't see burrowed units and you can unburrow, fungel and throw some IT's down to kill them.
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On July 12 2012 16:11 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:49 Walitgon wrote:
I have a question following on from my new infestor/ling/ultra style in Z v Z. I feel very vulnerable to Mutas because when I go double upgrades first, my lair is so late that I can't get an overseer into his base until very late.
What is the remedy to this problem? You should have an overlord behind your opponents base. If he is taking gases 3/4 early you should be expecting mutalisks and get spores up at a point you think mutas are going to be out. The ling/infestor/ultra style is really really strong vs a muta player because you can get your third before him and drone it up once you see the mutalisks. With ling/infestor/spine support if he tries an early roach attack with muta you will just crush it. He will also be behind in upgrades since most muta players start upgrades after mutalisks are out so you will be going 2/2 when he is starting +1 or 1/1 if he is double upgrading. Then when you get hive you will have a great economy and better upgrades then him. Make sure to get burrow though so you can potentially trap the mutalisks since they can't see burrowed units and you can unburrow, fungel and throw some IT's down to kill them. Your guide said it was very situational when you take your third base, could you expound a little on what those situations are?
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Ok thanks, will try to tighten up my play against muta, and watch the gases at his nat.
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Where do people send their 2nd overlord?
I'm used to sending it to my natural and then rally to the ramp.
That way I know if anything is coming in or not...but recently after watching GSL, I've noticed a lot of zergs don't do this and instead rally their 2nd overlord in the direction of the enemy base.
Just wondering why pro gamers don;t put overlord at natural
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 12 2012 17:18 repulsive wrote:
Where do people send their 2nd overlord?
I'm used to sending it to my natural and then rally to the ramp.
That way I know if anything is coming in or not...but recently after watching GSL, I've noticed a lot of zergs don't do this and instead rally their 2nd overlord in the direction of the enemy base.
Just wondering why pro gamers don;t put overlord at natural
Some players know others' playerstyles and are not afraid of a small cannon rush or anything, some though, take a gamble. I send that exact Overlord above my natural to be sacrificed as soon as the natural is done, it gets to the enemy base (depending on the map ofc) right around time I need it to be sacrificed.
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On July 12 2012 16:32 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:11 blade55555 wrote:On July 12 2012 15:49 Walitgon wrote:
I have a question following on from my new infestor/ling/ultra style in Z v Z. I feel very vulnerable to Mutas because when I go double upgrades first, my lair is so late that I can't get an overseer into his base until very late.
What is the remedy to this problem? You should have an overlord behind your opponents base. If he is taking gases 3/4 early you should be expecting mutalisks and get spores up at a point you think mutas are going to be out. The ling/infestor/ultra style is really really strong vs a muta player because you can get your third before him and drone it up once you see the mutalisks. With ling/infestor/spine support if he tries an early roach attack with muta you will just crush it. He will also be behind in upgrades since most muta players start upgrades after mutalisks are out so you will be going 2/2 when he is starting +1 or 1/1 if he is double upgrading. Then when you get hive you will have a great economy and better upgrades then him. Make sure to get burrow though so you can potentially trap the mutalisks since they can't see burrowed units and you can unburrow, fungel and throw some IT's down to kill them. Your guide said it was very situational when you take your third base, could you expound a little on what those situations are?
Well that's what I more meant. If you see roach warren on 2 bases you definitely don't want to take a third unless he has started his then you could start yours. The reason being is if he is going to do a 2 base roach timing you aren't going to hold your third.
If you see fast 4 gas you should take your third asap as he is obviously teching to either mutalisks or infestors (normally mutalisks as infestors would be weird but I have seen it  ).
Those are 2 timings you want to look out for when to take your third ^^.
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Hey, I can't find a way to beat 2 base 8gate timing with 2 colossus and lots of sentries. Here's a replay: http://drop.sc/220831
I thought I did everything perfect (dealt with the warp prism, baited lots of FF's) but still couldn't win. What should I do otherwise to beat this? Is there any way to punish this build (6pool/baneling bust etc)?
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Got a question for ZvP.
When Protoss FFE's and you go 3hatch before gas, and he techs to robo, how do you know if he is gonna attack or not?
If he goes for an expansion i take my fourth and tech to infestors/spines brood lords but obviously if he all ins instead im dead.
Any sort of timing/gateway count/whatever i need to look for?
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On July 13 2012 09:40 Guamshin wrote:
Got a question for ZvP.
When Protoss FFE's and you go 3hatch before gas, and he techs to robo, how do you know if he is gonna attack or not?
If he goes for an expansion i take my fourth and tech to infestors/spines brood lords but obviously if he all ins instead im dead.
Any sort of timing/gateway count/whatever i need to look for?
The thing to look is the gas taken between 6 and 8 min
No gas at 7min usually mean a gateway push is coming, Get speed and units ASAP
One gas usually mean Stargate play
Two gas means something gas heavy is coming, can be everything (Immortal all-in, Double stargate, 2base colo etc) and means you're safe to drone until the 8:30min mark
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On July 13 2012 09:55 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:40 Guamshin wrote:
Got a question for ZvP.
When Protoss FFE's and you go 3hatch before gas, and he techs to robo, how do you know if he is gonna attack or not?
If he goes for an expansion i take my fourth and tech to infestors/spines brood lords but obviously if he all ins instead im dead.
Any sort of timing/gateway count/whatever i need to look for? The thing to look is the gas taken between 6 and 8 min No gas at 7min usually mean a gateway push is coming, Get speed and units ASAP One gas usually mean Stargate play Two gas means something gas heavy is coming, can be everything (Immortal all-in, Double stargate, 2base colo etc) and means you're safe to drone until the 8:30min mark
This is not necessarily the case. I've seen some weird build where they take the 2 nat gas before 5 minutes and they stop at like 33 workers and just make a bajillion sentries after getting an incredibly early set of zealots and stalkers (7:00 push).
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On July 13 2012 09:40 Guamshin wrote:
Got a question for ZvP.
When Protoss FFE's and you go 3hatch before gas, and he techs to robo, how do you know if he is gonna attack or not?
If he goes for an expansion i take my fourth and tech to infestors/spines brood lords but obviously if he all ins instead im dead.
Any sort of timing/gateway count/whatever i need to look for?
It is extremely difficult to tell them apart. The problem is that the deviation for them choosing to expand or attack comes very late, after a normal 7:30 overlord scout. Both builds add 3 more gates and a robo (usually the robo is before the gates, but they are dropped at about the same time). A protoss who wants to expand usually drops the nexus after adding these 3 gates, usually between 8:45 and 9:15. The push instead adds 3-4 more gateways and attacks. Gas timings are the same with both builds. Note that there are many variations of immortal expands and pushes so the gas timings at the nat can vary slightly, but usually gas 3 and 4 are taken at no later than 6:40.
Now the problem is that you must start producing units before 8:45 if protoss is pushing, otherwise you are dead. Even if you morph an overseer when your lair completes and scout if he is adding gates, and make units if you see the gates, it is probably too late. So you must ASSSUME he is pushing until you see the nexus. This means if you scout a robo and 3 extra gates going down, you cut drones at around 55-60 and make pure roach/ling until you see the expansion. This is also not too bad if he decides to expand, because you can pressure with these units and probably get at least 1 sentry while droning behind it (and either choosing to expand or just add 1 round of drones before switching back to units to try to kill protoss).
Also if he pushes and does it optimally you pretty much MUST base trade. You cannot stop the push with roach/ling without base trading. Hide your units somewhere off of his attack path and spine up your nat. When I say spine up your nat, I mean it. Like 8 spines at the very least. When he moves out and is sufficiently far enough away from his base attack his natural. When he is about to hit your 3rd pull all drones/queens away to your nat with the spines. Kill his nat and return home, since if he is good he should have sentries at the top of his ramp to prevent his main from getting destroyed.
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On July 13 2012 03:54 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:32 whatevername wrote:On July 12 2012 16:11 blade55555 wrote:On July 12 2012 15:49 Walitgon wrote:
I have a question following on from my new infestor/ling/ultra style in Z v Z. I feel very vulnerable to Mutas because when I go double upgrades first, my lair is so late that I can't get an overseer into his base until very late.
What is the remedy to this problem? You should have an overlord behind your opponents base. If he is taking gases 3/4 early you should be expecting mutalisks and get spores up at a point you think mutas are going to be out. The ling/infestor/ultra style is really really strong vs a muta player because you can get your third before him and drone it up once you see the mutalisks. With ling/infestor/spine support if he tries an early roach attack with muta you will just crush it. He will also be behind in upgrades since most muta players start upgrades after mutalisks are out so you will be going 2/2 when he is starting +1 or 1/1 if he is double upgrading. Then when you get hive you will have a great economy and better upgrades then him. Make sure to get burrow though so you can potentially trap the mutalisks since they can't see burrowed units and you can unburrow, fungel and throw some IT's down to kill them. Your guide said it was very situational when you take your third base, could you expound a little on what those situations are? Well that's what I more meant. If you see roach warren on 2 bases you definitely don't want to take a third unless he has started his then you could start yours. The reason being is if he is going to do a 2 base roach timing you aren't going to hold your third. If you see fast 4 gas you should take your third asap as he is obviously teching to either mutalisks or infestors (normally mutalisks as infestors would be weird but I have seen it ). Those are 2 timings you want to look out for when to take your third ^^. Everyoine in diamond takes 4 gas regardless of what they're doing and generally put a roach warren in their main, so I cant reliable discern they're tech until I actually see it at lair tech [overlords on most maps die since shakuras has a big main for ex, etc]. What should I do until build orders actually become...sensical? I mean whats a safe way to play in the dark :\
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What's a solid, first build to begin practicing for every possible matchup? Thinking of switching races and I don't know much.
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EPT
