EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 317
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Hemingway
United States55 Posts
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Maxamix
Canada165 Posts
It is a very hard push to stop and i still fall to it a lot of times, at some point i tried messing around with banelings for the hellions but it just does not seem to work once he gets his critical mass | ||
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Fearless7
4 Posts
I've been finding myself regretting not going with the latter lately because of incessant drops and lack of ability to harass a well turtling terran, but I'm curious if I wouldn't regret not going with infestor should I make that change. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 14 2012 03:19 Fearless7 wrote: Why is ling/bling/infestor the composition to go for these days? What does it have to offer over ling/bling/muta? I've been finding myself regretting not going with the latter lately because of incessant drops and lack of ability to harass a well turtling terran, but I'm curious if I wouldn't regret not going with infestor should I make that change. ling/bane/infestor leads to faster hive and faster tier 3 tech. Ling/bane/muta delays hive a few minutes longer. I personally prefer muta/ling/bane but it really depends on the map. On maps like cloud kingdom/antiga/ohana I do not think mutalisks are a good unit on those type of maps, on a map like daybreak/condemned ridge, bigger maps I think mutas are a great option to deal with drops and what not. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
I went the usual 3 base roach/ling but still got forcefielded to death. Is it just better execution? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 14 2012 04:43 KaiserJohan wrote: What is the proper response to ZvP where P does a 10minute imortal/sentry push of FFE? Got annihilated by it on close spawns Entombed (close spawns sucks.... but have to live with the ladder maps). So tight chokes and tons of sentries + immortals. I went the usual 3 base roach/ling but still got forcefielded to death. Is it just better execution? I usually want to stray away from Stephano roach/ling style since most Protoss blindly go for Immortal/Sentry allin. Before the game starts, I have a game plan of: - Ling/Muta - Dimaga's Bainrain - 8min Nydus Ling/Roach allin - if I scout Immortal/Sentry allin, I go Ling/Hydra If however I decide to go with Stephano style, I have lost to Immortal/Sentry allin too many times, and I realized, it's all about engagements AND the fact that I MUST NOT let the Protoss army come to my third with all Sentries at full energy. The key is to constantly engage them on the way to your third. You should have some lings outside of their natural and see when they are moving out, while your Roaches should be mid-map (you first must confirm that there are no DTs for this to work). As soon as he starts moving out, bait force-fields, engage and back off. He moves forward, you engage him again with reinforcements, trying to snipe Sentries with Roaches/Lings who are trapped in the FF. It is a difficult push to hold off as it is a direct counter to Stephano style, but it can be done, the whole thing is trying to trade while baiting Force Fields, you do not want to engage in choke points (for example, at his natural's ramp on Daybreak, or on any ramp on Cloud Kingdom), you want to have a huge area so that he has to use even more energy to keep his army safe. Also, almost all Zergs I know have Entombed Valley vetoed. | ||
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GameOfDrones
United States1 Post
Playing ZvZ on Antiga. I am starting 14 pool/gas and expanding at about 20. I was able to scout opponent's position damn late and all I saw was 14gas/pool and 1 queen. no lings... I've spent as much time with this drone on his base as possible and lost it eventually... 1-2 minutes later I put an overlord to his base and saw pretty much the same thing, except he has just finished a baneling nest. overlord was under attack so had to pull it away.. 1 minute later I got about 30 lings (at about 6 minutes) rushing my base with no chance for me to defend.... I loaded the replay and it turnes out as soon as he got 14 pool he started to build lings only and stopped all drone production... Since I scouted him too late and saw nothing with overlord as well, I assumed he was expanding as well and was going to check it out but got killed before I had a chance. What's the best approach in ZvZ to defend ling-only 1 base semi-allin? even if i send my first lings to his base and see a lot of lings and no expand here I guess I don't have enough time to build lings to defend his 30 lings push since I spent lots of minerals on drones/queens/hatch-expand while all he was doing is getting lings meanwhile. Crawlers take 50 sec to build so they won't be up in time as well. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
ZvZ was my worst MU because I did not understand it and I had the need to be aggressive, suddenly, when I started playing ULTRA safe, I've won almost all ZvZs, it is actually my best MU now (although, 85% of my total games in the past several days ARE ZvZs so...). Anyhow, I open up with 14p/16h, get my gas right as my Overlord at 18 pops. If I see an expansion, I know I'm safe from all allin attacks for next couple of minutes, then I return to droning. My overall game-plan is Roaches or Mutas into Roaches. The first 50 gas, I spend on Bling nest and I keep the Drones on gas. I make 8 lings+4 Blings and at 40 supply, I drop Roach Warren (I do not even get speed early in the game). Almost all Zerg players back off when they see I have blings before they do and either bring shitton of Blings of their own (but by that time, you should have 5-7 Roaches), and it is micro wars. Since I have Roaches (if I see an allin, I deliberately hurt my economy by building Roaches early on) and I know I am safe. You can easily scout an allin by having your Overlord over their natural, if it is a 2base allin, keep him in the dead space near the mineral line, every now and then poke in and count Drones, if there are a lot of Drones, yeah, he's Droning, most likely going for Roaches, if you see 4 Extractors, he's most likely going for Mutas, but double check this with an Overseer before going panic mode with Spore Crawlers. If he has very few Drones in the mineral line (5-10), go panic mode against allin. If you do not know the difference between that, check your own natural if you have been Droning as well, let's say you have 18 Drones and 3 on gas, he is at 7 Drones, the difference is obvious, or he's just very bad (considering your league, no pun intended) and you should outright win that easily since you have a much better economy than he does. Also, what I've seen IdrA do, and I grew quite fond of doing it, if you are unsure if your opponent is doing a very early allin, throw a Spine Crawler at your natural. Sometimes, when I meet a player that I know allined me before, I actually do this with my first Drone at the natural. ALWAYS have 4 morphed Banelings, always. If you lose some, remake them and then transition into whatever mid-game you want. Also, do not keep your Blings at the front, you don't want them to aggro a single ling and lose it. Keep them on the ramp of your main (effectively protecting your main from a huge run-by and much much lower chance of Blings aggroing a loner ling) Edit: also, if you do not see an expansion, prepare like mad for an allin, and if you see that there is no allin coming soon, send out one ling in all direction and look for a hidden base. These are bad especially for Zerg since they rely on their Hatcheries to produce units, and when your units are being produced at 2 different locations, it is difficult to defend well enough. | ||
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Pyrena
7 Posts
On July 14 2012 06:09 GameOfDrones wrote: What's the best approach in ZvZ to defend ling-only 1 base semi-allin? even if i send my first lings to his base and see a lot of lings and no expand here I guess I don't have enough time to build lings to defend his 30 lings push since I spent lots of minerals on drones/queens/hatch-expand while all he was doing is getting lings meanwhile. Crawlers take 50 sec to build so they won't be up in time as well. You will only face this kind of allin in silver-league, as it's actually really really bad. As you said, because your opponent stockpiled lings much earlier, there is no way to match his Ling-count. You also saw no expo at 21 supply, which indicates an all-in. At this moment, you should get some spines at your natural, and a second queen as fast as possible to block the ramp. As you saw no roach-warren, you need to get a baneling-nest to deal with his lings. If you see him moving out, just block the ramp with your queens and protect your drones at your natural with your banelings. There is no way he could possibly attack into that, even with 30 lings. take a look at some videos or guides on how to defend a ling/baneling allin, as that's what this kind of allin actually is, just without the banelings. I'd appreciate it if someone would confirm this, as this is the first time I feel comfident enough in giving advice my own. | ||
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Nezi
62 Posts
On July 14 2012 06:44 Pyrena wrote: You will only face this kind of allin in silver-league, as it's actually really really bad. As you said, because your opponent stockpiled lings much earlier, there is no way to match his Ling-count. You also saw no expo at 21 supply, which indicates an all-in. At this moment, you should get some spines at your natural, and a second queen as fast as possible to block the ramp. As you saw no roach-warren, you need to get a baneling-nest to deal with his lings. If you see him moving out, just block the ramp with your queens and protect your drones at your natural with your banelings. There is no way he could possibly attack into that, even with 30 lings. take a look at some videos or guides on how to defend a ling/baneling allin, as that's what this kind of allin actually is, just without the banelings. I'd appreciate it if someone would confirm this, as this is the first time I feel comfident enough in giving advice my own. This is solid advice. Though I am not sure you could get banelings out in time, since there is no replay to watch. If you hatch first and you see that he hasn't started an expansion by the time you pool finishes make 2 queens and a spine right when your pool finishes. Delay the inital lings. If he still hasn't expanded keep pumping lings until he drops his hatchery. The moment he leaves his base with speedlings block your ramp with your queens and put them on hold position. If you have drones at your natural move them to your main. There really shouldn't be any way for him to kill you, unless he did a 10p speed opener where he stockpiles lings. | ||
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BongSniper69
27 Posts
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On July 14 2012 06:09 GameOfDrones wrote: I am really a silver league noob here and I have a pretty stupid situation as well. Playing ZvZ on Antiga. I am starting 14 pool/gas and expanding at about 20. I was able to scout opponent's position damn late and all I saw was 14gas/pool and 1 queen. no lings... I've spent as much time with this drone on his base as possible and lost it eventually... 1-2 minutes later I put an overlord to his base and saw pretty much the same thing, except he has just finished a baneling nest. overlord was under attack so had to pull it away.. 1 minute later I got about 30 lings (at about 6 minutes) rushing my base with no chance for me to defend.... I loaded the replay and it turnes out as soon as he got 14 pool he started to build lings only and stopped all drone production... Since I scouted him too late and saw nothing with overlord as well, I assumed he was expanding as well and was going to check it out but got killed before I had a chance. What's the best approach in ZvZ to defend ling-only 1 base semi-allin? even if i send my first lings to his base and see a lot of lings and no expand here I guess I don't have enough time to build lings to defend his 30 lings push since I spent lots of minerals on drones/queens/hatch-expand while all he was doing is getting lings meanwhile. Crawlers take 50 sec to build so they won't be up in time as well. If you both go 14/14, keep 1-2 guys in gas, and when you reach 50 gas make a baneling nest, and keep (i recommend) 2 in gas after the nest goes down. From here: If he's rallying-- Your overlord or lings should be aware of the number of lings your opponent is making, and if you're made any drones rather than lings after your pool has completed you will need to bring your queen down to your natural, as his lings will outnumber yours if he hasn't made drones after pool. your queen swings the engagement into your favor, and you can morph 2 banes on the side or up your ramp as you use your queen +lings to buy time. If he's pooling-- since you're following the same baneling nest timing, it will be ready before he moves out with enough lings to beat your inital+reactionary lings with 1-2 queens. Build 2 defensive banelings blindly if you haven't scouted him, and 4 blind if he hasn't expanded. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 14 2012 06:55 Nezi wrote: This is solid advice. Though I am not sure you could get banelings out in time, since there is no replay to watch. If you hatch first and you see that he hasn't started an expansion by the time you pool finishes make 2 queens and a spine right when your pool finishes. Delay the inital lings. If he still hasn't expanded keep pumping lings until he drops his hatchery. The moment he leaves his base with speedlings block your ramp with your queens and put them on hold position. If you have drones at your natural move them to your main. There really shouldn't be any way for him to kill you, unless he did a 10p speed opener where he stockpiles lings. You should have banes. You should also be able to see his low drone count, and realize that the missing larvae are going into units. If you hatch first, you should ALWAYS make two queens to block the ramp. And almost always get one spine. Regardless of your build, you need defensive banes unless you scout a really early roach warren, and you'll want two queens ready to block runbys. A spine is recommended to prevent single lings from running in and baiting a baneling hit. | ||
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DarkBaneling
United States13 Posts
I tried freestyling the build a second ago on ladder and lost to a 6 gate with +1 zealot, which seems like a good counter to this kind of build. I've been doing the roach max forever in zvp but it hasn't been working as well for me lately, been having a terrible time with well executed immortal sentry all ins so figured I'd try to get a different build down. Thanks. | ||
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quarkral
58 Posts
I can't seem to get a hydra/ling bust or a ling/baneling drop out earlier than 10 or 9 minutes respectively without sacrificing too much economy. Both are like just a minute too late <_< Roaches seem far too weak for early timing attacks against any turtling P who doesn't suck with FF.... Basically I want a way to transition into a muta/ling midgame by putting some pressure on P early on instead of just passively macroing. Slightly weaker economy is acceptable since I can double expand behind the push, take 6-8 gas, spam muta and drone behind that to catch up. I don't want to do baneling busts at the front cause even if it works my entire army is gone anyway, and I don't feel safe to make muta. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I have a few questions to you guys about how to play against Terran, build order wise. These are my builds: 1 rax/gas, etc '1 base openings' like reactor hellion 2xQueen ~24 Gas, Speed, take off 2 from gas (or whatever) 4 queen total, asap 10 lings at 40+ 1 rax FE: ~31 Gas, speed, (usually leave on) 5xQueen ~45 Third ~50-55, Macro hatch i just sorta feel with the 6 queen gasless play, the hellion/banshee stuff is really strong because you need speedlings to take care of mass hellions... i had some people critisize this as my drone count being too low. | ||
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LyraD
Singapore13 Posts
 So if say we managed to defend against all in, at what timings do I drop the roach warren or evo chamber? And when do I go for lair and 3rd hatch? I always get these timings wrong and lost to a large incoming army. Also, when do I take gas? I always seem to have too much or too little gas. Is there a BO for this? | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On July 14 2012 16:09 Belial88 wrote: ^ Check out my ZvP guide... I have a few questions to you guys about how to play against Terran, build order wise. These are my builds: 1 rax/gas, etc '1 base openings' like reactor hellion 2xQueen ~24 Gas, Speed, take off 2 from gas (or whatever) 4 queen total, asap 10 lings at 40+ 1 rax FE: ~31 Gas, speed, (usually leave on) 5xQueen ~45 Third ~50-55, Macro hatch i just sorta feel with the 6 queen gasless play, the hellion/banshee stuff is really strong because you need speedlings to take care of mass hellions... i had some people critisize this as my drone count being too low. I generally don't vary my gas/queen timings based on their build, but rather based on map (unless of course it's forced by a committal build by T.) I find both a gas opener and a queen opening plenty flexible to deal with a gas or cc opening from terran. I would much rather my strategy be catered to the map-- if I'm playing daybreak, the early map control and threat of allin is much less impacting than the large creep spread, and general higher drone count. However on smaller maps, the value of the greater overall threat and flexibility of gas openings is relatively higher than on larger maps, which I personally feel is enough to tip into the gas openings favor. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 14 2012 16:09 Belial88 wrote: ^ Check out my ZvP guide... I have a few questions to you guys about how to play against Terran, build order wise. These are my builds: 1 rax/gas, etc '1 base openings' like reactor hellion 2xQueen ~24 Gas, Speed, take off 2 from gas (or whatever) 4 queen total, asap 10 lings at 40+ 1 rax FE: ~31 Gas, speed, (usually leave on) 5xQueen ~45 Third ~50-55, Macro hatch i just sorta feel with the 6 queen gasless play, the hellion/banshee stuff is really strong because you need speedlings to take care of mass hellions... i had some people critisize this as my drone count being too low. Any questions in particular? The builds look fine. I could nitpick and say that your 5 queen thing gets gas too early, should put down spine to be safe, take third based on scouting (ASAP when clearly not anything more than hellions). Replays? On July 14 2012 16:16 LyraD wrote: Hi all, I have some questions on ZvZ as well. I really like the comments on how to defend against bane ling all ins, because they are effective and straight to the point! Hopefully I can take a leaf from the books of you pros So if say we managed to defend against all in, at what timings do I drop the roach warren or evo chamber? And when do I go for lair and 3rd hatch? I always get these timings wrong and lost to a large incoming army. Also, when do I take gas? I always seem to have too much or too little gas. Is there a BO for this? The standard timings I use are Belial's +1 missile roach transition standard, the 40 evo 50 roach warren. Since you've built lings and may have some left over from the defense, just subtract anything more than the 4 defensive banes (i.e. 2 supply) from your current supply to get roughly back on track. You want +1 missile started ASAP, and if you're being properly defensive, you don't want to add roaches until it's close to completion (i.e. scout and be ready with banes). Third before lair, protected by a few banes, is supposed to be the "right" way to play. Nowadays there's some double upgrade ling-infestor on two base madness, and two base mutas is still around. Take your pick. I wouldn't take the third until after you've got a good drone count for two bases, though, and I always seem to end up dropping the evo and roach warren before the third even when being fairly greedy. However, I am far from an expert on the nuances of third timings, I tend to just do it when I feel safe. Somebody else is going to have to help you with gas, I do it on feel and can't even seem to remember roughly when I will normally add gases. Sorry. | ||
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