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On July 14 2012 16:16 LyraD wrote:
So if say we managed to defend against all in, at what timings do I drop the roach warren or evo chamber? And when do I go for lair and 3rd hatch? I always get these timings wrong and lost to a large incoming army.
Also, when do I take gas? I always seem to have too much or too little gas.
After succesfully defending the allin, there really isn't much what your opponent can do.
His options are basically:
- leave the game
- try to bust you again
- do some 1base roach/muta (it's stupid, but you'll face it on ladder)
- try to catch up by being super greedy
your opponent is heavily gas starved because he invested so much gas,
and you are ahead on econ and production, and equal on tech.
Be sure to scout for hidden expansions, check what your opponent is up to.
If he continues the bling aggression, just keep on as you did.
Get 2base saturation (you should almost have it anyway), start your roach warren and +1 attack, mass roaches until +1 finishes and end the game. There is no way your opponent can match your econ and get appropriate defense against
your army.
if he goes for 1base muta, start producing double queens (until 7 or so), maybe get a single spore at each base and end the game with your roaches. (to be honest, this is incredibly overkill, you can get away with much less)
It really doesn't matter what you do after the baneling allin hit, because you are just so far ahead.
To the gases: generally, you want to stay on only one gas in the early game, because you just don't need more.
If you're goin 2base roach, you can afford constant roach production off of 3 geysers, you need additional ones if you want to tech.
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Quick question, how in gods name do i beat toss. All the scrubs do is immortal all in every game. It's a joke
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 14 2012 15:58 DarkBaneling wrote:
Can someone give me a few basic timings/overview for zvp baneling drop to stop immortal sentry all in? Do you get 1 gas quicker than usual for speed or just get the standard 2 gas around 6:00? I would think you would want a quicker speed? What about 3rd/4th gasses and lair timing? Do I want enough gas to start drops and ovi speed immediately when lair finishes? Does the Baneling nest just needs to be down in time for it to be done when drops finish?
I tried freestyling the build a second ago on ladder and lost to a 6 gate with +1 zealot, which seems like a good counter to this kind of build.
I've been doing the roach max forever in zvp but it hasn't been working as well for me lately, been having a terrible time with well executed immortal sentry all ins so figured I'd try to get a different build down. Thanks.
9 Overlord
14 Pool
15 Overlord
16 Hatch
15 Ling
16 Queen
21 Hatch (4:00)
20 Queen
24 Overlord
25 Gas (4:30)
32 Overlord
36 Queen
43 Speed (5:55)
44 Overlord x2
46 Gas (6:30)
62 Evolution Chamber x2 (7:15)
60 Overlord x3
60+ Ling production
8:00 +1 Melee/+1 Carapace
8:00 Gas x2
8:10 Lair
8:25 Baneling Nest
8:45 Macro Hatch w/Queen
9:35 Gas x2
10:00 Overlord Drops
10:18 Overlord Speed
10:50 Baneling Speed
10:50 +2 Melee/+2 Carapace
Taken from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346148
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On July 14 2012 20:43 TTOMZ wrote:
Quick question, how in gods name do i beat toss. All the scrubs do is immortal all in every game. It's a joke
Don't call people scrubs, it's makes you look unintelligent. Thank you.
You can hold immortal sentry all-ins with the standard stephano max out stuff, but you have to deny pylons and you have to engage him in front of his base or in the middle of the map, kill sentries mainly. If he just gets to walk up to your third or natural, you die to forcefields.
Your macro needs to be impeccable. If you get supply blocked once during your opening and your opponent didn't, odds are you'll lose unless you get a really good engagement.
Also: Spines are not the answer.
Other ways to beat this style is Dimaga ling/baneling style and 3hatch fast muta (which can die to other timings so never do it blindly)
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I lost a ZvZ today, where we went lings first, then ling roach, into ling roach infestors and from here he massed roaches and I went ultra roach infestor ling.
I made mistakes (upgraded melee/carapace and not missile) and I feel I should have outmacroed him with roaches instead of teching to ultras. Is that really true? Infestor, ultra, ling, roach loses to infestor roach? Or did I do it right, and just need to focus on engagements and macro (which I could have done better)?
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On July 15 2012 06:00 eXeel wrote:
I lost a ZvZ today, where we went lings first, then ling roach, into ling roach infestors and from here he massed roaches and I went ultra roach infestor ling.
I made mistakes (upgraded melee/carapace and not missile) and I feel I should have outmacroed him with roaches instead of teching to ultras. Is that really true? Infestor, ultra, ling, roach loses to infestor roach? Or did I do it right, and just need to focus on engagements and macro (which I could have done better)?
Too many variables, would need a replay.
If he stayed on roach infestor for a very long time while you added tech it's fine, but if you're trying to do too many things and he just masses roach with 4-6 infestors you could just die. But as I said.... it's too complicated to answer from the information in your post.
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http://drop.sc/221997
There it is. I didn't post it because I found several problems I made that could have changed a lot.
It was more of a general question.
If my enemy goes mass roach and some infestors, are inf, ultra, roach, ling the answer or does mass roaches have an advantage over that combo?
And then I didn't upgrade ranged because I aimed for ultras, so that hurt me a lot too, I guess.
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Sorry for the delay in replying.
If you are maxed on ultra infestor roach ling with equal upgrades to your opponents maxed roach/infestor you should win.
But it's not that simple....
Going over the replay:
The ultralisk transition was not timed well.
It's kind of weird going mass roach infestor with melee upgrades into ultras, but you were ahead by miles. Especially when you sniped his third.
If you had continued making either lings or roaches you would have held your fourth and simply won because of your better income.
The other problem was that you did not remake the drones that you lost at any point.
High tech units like ultras require high incomes, or you'll be struggling to hit max ever again.
So because this was a low econ game, the more leen army mix (roach infestor) won.
50 drones is not enough to make ultra/roach/infestor/ling.
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Thanks, it also felt silly doing the 1/1 upgrades for melee and armor. I was trying to think ahead, but I guess I should focus on missile upgrades vZ and vP? And melee vs bio T, maybe missile vs mech T?
Or isnøt it that simple?
True with the drones. And my army didn't defend the 4th so it was tought getting one up. Silly me.
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I'm sure this has been asked but I can't find an answer:
I recently changed my inject method to the backspace method (rebound to space bar) and I'm finding that sometimes my queens are taking a jog across the map to inject a hatchery. Is there a way to avoid this? I like the method on 3 base, but, in the late game, it becomes pretty bad.
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On July 15 2012 08:55 shadogi wrote:
I'm sure this has been asked but I can't find an answer:
I recently changed my inject method to the backspace method (rebound to space bar) and I'm finding that sometimes my queens are taking a jog across the map to inject a hatchery. Is there a way to avoid this? I like the method on 3 base, but, in the late game, it becomes pretty bad.
This only happens if you have insufficient queens to go to each hatchery. If you say have 3 queens and 4 base hatches you hit the inject for, logically one of them has to go to 2 places so whatever the LAST one is that you hit (probably the newest popping one) is where one of the 3 queens is going to ignore the first inject command for and head across to wherever the new base hatch is.
Solution? Simply build enough queens. That's about it.
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On July 15 2012 08:55 shadogi wrote:
I'm sure this has been asked but I can't find an answer:
I recently changed my inject method to the backspace method (rebound to space bar) and I'm finding that sometimes my queens are taking a jog across the map to inject a hatchery. Is there a way to avoid this? I like the method on 3 base, but, in the late game, it becomes pretty bad.
don't hotkey your queens. just box each one from base to base. nestea does this with the backspace method and it's really not going to slow you down or require much more APM.
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On July 14 2012 21:26 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 20:43 TTOMZ wrote:
Quick question, how in gods name do i beat toss. All the scrubs do is immortal all in every game. It's a joke Don't call people scrubs, it's makes you look unintelligent. Thank you. You can hold immortal sentry all-ins with the standard stephano max out stuff, but you have to deny pylons and you have to engage him in front of his base or in the middle of the map, kill sentries mainly. If he just gets to walk up to your third or natural, you die to forcefields. Your macro needs to be impeccable. If you get supply blocked once during your opening and your opponent didn't, odds are you'll lose unless you get a really good engagement. Also: Spines are not the answer. Other ways to beat this style is Dimaga ling/baneling style and 3hatch fast muta (which can die to other timings so never do it blindly)
You know, I really dislike the roach max approach for this reason: if the person you are playing actually is a total scrub, and does something like herp derp doesn't push out until 8 immortals, or gets robo/blink, or double robo, or even masses colossus off 2 base, you will get destroyed for maxing on roach/ling. If you try to bleed off supply, Toss will take it as an opportunity to go fucking kill you as well, so you can't really do that either (attacking into a choke vs ff+immortal,yay...).
I've been playing the Nestea style muta play, but I think in general the answer is mass spines in your nat if you see he's going to push (no expo by 10:00, or posturing to take one by 9:00), and base trade if he pushes out and sac your third (save the drones when he arrives, all new units keep at home to help defend with mass spines). Roach/ling, super fast muta...
I guess the idea is you can eventually beat the army head on using infestors, but that takes a ridiculously long time and if you maxed out on roach/ling, you simply won't be able to get enough infestors on 3 base gas after maxing out on roach/ling...
Which is just retarded. It's literally like I have a harder time playing... well, stupid people, than I do against a Toss who macros well and pushes out at 9:20 and hits me by 10:20, those scrub Tosses who just herp derp on 2 base, get supply blocked every time, and then push out with something stupid double robo, or just maxes out on 2 base, 2 base colossus deathball, etc... Mutas normally counter such play but expecting they are good, you don't go mutas (unless you decide early enough to go quick muta)..
I have the worst times with 3 gate sentry expands into immortal/sentry all-ins... You have to mass roach/ling in preparation for things like gateway all-ins off 2 base, but then you find out it's immortals or even colossus and oop, your screwed.
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^ if you have trouble in masters imagine in dia where every toss is too bad to have proper timing and just turtles up until +2 immortal/sentry ball or something dumb. We actually get punished for playing well T_T
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On July 15 2012 10:14 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 21:26 Clarity_nl wrote:On July 14 2012 20:43 TTOMZ wrote:
Quick question, how in gods name do i beat toss. All the scrubs do is immortal all in every game. It's a joke Don't call people scrubs, it's makes you look unintelligent. Thank you. You can hold immortal sentry all-ins with the standard stephano max out stuff, but you have to deny pylons and you have to engage him in front of his base or in the middle of the map, kill sentries mainly. If he just gets to walk up to your third or natural, you die to forcefields. Your macro needs to be impeccable. If you get supply blocked once during your opening and your opponent didn't, odds are you'll lose unless you get a really good engagement. Also: Spines are not the answer. Other ways to beat this style is Dimaga ling/baneling style and 3hatch fast muta (which can die to other timings so never do it blindly) You know, I really dislike the roach max approach for this reason: if the person you are playing actually is a total scrub, and does something like herp derp doesn't push out until 8 immortals, or gets robo/blink, or double robo, or even masses colossus off 2 base, you will get destroyed for maxing on roach/ling. If you try to bleed off supply, Toss will take it as an opportunity to go fucking kill you as well, so you can't really do that either (attacking into a choke vs ff+immortal,yay...). I've been playing the Nestea style muta play, but I think in general the answer is mass spines in your nat if you see he's going to push (no expo by 10:00, or posturing to take one by 9:00), and base trade if he pushes out and sac your third (save the drones when he arrives, all new units keep at home to help defend with mass spines). Roach/ling, super fast muta... I guess the idea is you can eventually beat the army head on using infestors, but that takes a ridiculously long time and if you maxed out on roach/ling, you simply won't be able to get enough infestors on 3 base gas after maxing out on roach/ling... Which is just retarded. It's literally like I have a harder time playing... well, stupid people, than I do against a Toss who macros well and pushes out at 9:20 and hits me by 10:20, those scrub Tosses who just herp derp on 2 base, get supply blocked every time, and then push out with something stupid double robo, or just maxes out on 2 base, 2 base colossus deathball, etc... Mutas normally counter such play but expecting they are good, you don't go mutas (unless you decide early enough to go quick muta).. I have the worst times with 3 gate sentry expands into immortal/sentry all-ins... You have to mass roach/ling in preparation for things like gateway all-ins off 2 base, but then you find out it's immortals or even colossus and oop, your screwed.
It's an issue I have as well, and I think the problem is in not scouting the Toss army often enough.
I think you should never bleed supply unless you're actually "accidentally" maxed. I generally never go over 160-170 supply ZvP unless I really have to, or already have my dream army.
I wish hydras were better against protoss but they're simply so slow and your creep can't really be spread out far enough away from your expansion.
The reason I say spines are not the answer is because, sadly, spines are not cost-effective against sentry immortal until you get a good number of them (considering drone cost and lost mining). If you make 4-6 spines spread across your nat and third, you have to remake the drones. And if you're doing stephano max out style you simply lose too much eco while they're building.
I guess if your gameplan from the start is to go 3 hatch quick muta.... it's possible to hold anything with enough counter-attacking and willingness to sack the third if they all-in, but it's extremely hard and I can't say I've seen it in pro play where there wasn't some metagaming involved.
PS: I don't see a real reason to call people who make mistakes "scrubs" or "stupid people", can't learn without making mistakes, and no one just macros perfectly all of a sudden, it takes time.
On July 15 2012 10:28 sCCrooked wrote:
^ if you have trouble in masters imagine in dia where every toss is too bad to have proper timing and just turtles up until +2 immortal/sentry ball or something dumb. We actually get punished for being superior in every way T_T
I don't agree with this mindset. Imagine pros in poker would play some amateur and afterwards say: "Well I did this high level tell, but because he was so awful he didn't catch it so I lost"
Instead, the lower the level of your opponent, the simpler you have to play. If you truly are better than your opponent you will win (within a tiny margin of error, this is why we have Best Of X).
If you want to beat a diamond protoss you can macro like a masters player and do the stephano max out at 11:30/11:45 and win.
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Against a bad protoss who doesn't know how to hit a timing and sits to a big army, it's much like how you would play against someone who goes 3 base into a pre-hive timing too. Just get infestors and spines, mix in corrupters if there are colossi. Infestors are the main reason 2 base turtle toss doesn't work much anymore.
Symbol lost to Squirtle who did this and he lost when Seed also turtled a bit longer than he expected. Infestors are the key and you have to be able to get them for larger supply engagements.
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On July 15 2012 10:43 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Against a bad protoss who doesn't know how to hit a timing and sits to a big army, it's much like how you would play against someone who goes 3 base into a pre-hive timing too. Just get infestors and spines, mix in corrupters if there are colossi. Infestors are the main reason 2 base turtle toss doesn't work much anymore.
Symbol lost to Squirtle who did this and he lost when Seed also turtled a bit longer than he expected. Infestors are the key and you have to be able to get them for larger supply engagements.
Yep and the only difference is you have to delay hive and toss is much more all-in. Once they move out they can't just go like: uh.... nvm.
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On July 15 2012 10:34 Clarity_nl wrote:
I don't agree with this mindset. Imagine pros in poker would play some amateur and afterwards say: "Well I did this high level tell, but because he was so awful he didn't catch it so I lost"
Instead, the lower the level of your opponent, the simpler you have to play. If you truly are better than your opponent you will win (within a tiny margin of error, this is why we have Best Of X).
If you want to beat a diamond protoss you can macro like a masters player and do the stephano max out at 11:30/11:45 and win.
Well I was a pro poker player in the WSOP and WPT circuits back in 2006-2007 and I've run into plenty of opponents that were quite literally "too dumb to play right". People who call ridiculous raises on worse-than-playing-the-lottery chances of gutshot straight draws or other situations where literally there is ONE card that can win it for you and you aren't even considering someone might've gotten that card in their hole cards and folded it. Perhaps this is why my mindset is just like this. When you spend days on end socializing with people like Daniel Negreanu and Phil Ivey, I guess the mentality sticks.
I suppose the argument of "well you should've thought to dumb down your play" sort of works but seriously think about what you just said. I should when playing a diamond, purpose fuck up my build and only make it to like 55-60 supply by 8 minutes with late gasses and a messed up warren/evo timing to "counter" his play level? That makes little sense to me.
It exposes a very serious game flaw which is that you get punished for being better. The only way I've found that settles this is if he hasn't moved out by 11:00, I just cut supply at 170 and get infestors added in. Its still stupid that if you macro for 11:30 and max out, you're actually somehow behind someone that didn't have the APM or multi-task or strategic brainpower to have proper move-out timings or economy-to-army ratio timings. In BW, those tiny mistakes of a few seconds meant you undoubtedly lost the game. Just ask any decent Protoss what happens when they mess up macroing enough units or moving out properly against a Zerg with good macro.
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On July 15 2012 10:14 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 21:26 Clarity_nl wrote:On July 14 2012 20:43 TTOMZ wrote:
Quick question, how in gods name do i beat toss. All the scrubs do is immortal all in every game. It's a joke Don't call people scrubs, it's makes you look unintelligent. Thank you. You can hold immortal sentry all-ins with the standard stephano max out stuff, but you have to deny pylons and you have to engage him in front of his base or in the middle of the map, kill sentries mainly. If he just gets to walk up to your third or natural, you die to forcefields. Your macro needs to be impeccable. If you get supply blocked once during your opening and your opponent didn't, odds are you'll lose unless you get a really good engagement. Also: Spines are not the answer. Other ways to beat this style is Dimaga ling/baneling style and 3hatch fast muta (which can die to other timings so never do it blindly) You know, I really dislike the roach max approach for this reason: if the person you are playing actually is a total scrub, and does something like herp derp doesn't push out until 8 immortals, or gets robo/blink, or double robo, or even masses colossus off 2 base, you will get destroyed for maxing on roach/ling. If you try to bleed off supply, Toss will take it as an opportunity to go fucking kill you as well, so you can't really do that either (attacking into a choke vs ff+immortal,yay...). I've been playing the Nestea style muta play, but I think in general the answer is mass spines in your nat if you see he's going to push (no expo by 10:00, or posturing to take one by 9:00), and base trade if he pushes out and sac your third (save the drones when he arrives, all new units keep at home to help defend with mass spines). Roach/ling, super fast muta... I guess the idea is you can eventually beat the army head on using infestors, but that takes a ridiculously long time and if you maxed out on roach/ling, you simply won't be able to get enough infestors on 3 base gas after maxing out on roach/ling... Which is just retarded. It's literally like I have a harder time playing... well, stupid people, than I do against a Toss who macros well and pushes out at 9:20 and hits me by 10:20, those scrub Tosses who just herp derp on 2 base, get supply blocked every time, and then push out with something stupid double robo, or just maxes out on 2 base, 2 base colossus deathball, etc... Mutas normally counter such play but expecting they are good, you don't go mutas (unless you decide early enough to go quick muta).. I have the worst times with 3 gate sentry expands into immortal/sentry all-ins... You have to mass roach/ling in preparation for things like gateway all-ins off 2 base, but then you find out it's immortals or even colossus and oop, your screwed.
Well even if they are waiting a long time to push after you're maxed, if their composition remains immortal/gateway, after you max on roach/ling you can add baneling nest and drop tech, and your army with so many lings has a ton of room for growth via baneling drops, you'll crush any 2base immortal/gateway army they can muster.
And if you're having trouble with 2 base collosus allins, you just need to identify early, and prepare differently than a gateway or immortal/gateway allin.
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^ It's more like people who add a robo bay after making 4 immortals. Just a dumb game I played, that's all.
I like sCCrooked's advice of just not going past 170 supply and going for infestors before maxing.
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EPT
