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On July 15 2012 21:29 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 21:20 Pyrena wrote:
I really wish you'd commentate on the second half of my post.
It's not like 2 base all-in into 2base turtle into 200/200 unit composition of x is something you will
see in highlevel-play, because it isn't self rewarding.
Every minute the protoss is on 2base vs. 3, he actually gets more and more behind.
You absolutely have to prepare for it if he does move out in the next second, but you have to switch to a
more heavy weapon if he doesn't.
I really encourage you to try some baneling-play if you face that kind of problems. I was going to try saving you some face by not showing that part, but these are just really bad comments said in the face of overwhelming evidence. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337516That right there is a link to the long thread of discussion following a build and style suggested by EmpireMista. Other Protosses have since created variations of this build. These are progamers. The others that have been using variances of this build are GM at the top and continue all the way down to mineral-league levels. It IS self-rewarding in a very big way. You can even see Mista winning against Code S Stephano using this build in an embedded VOD. bane/ling is not effective either. The only option they really mentioned there was a base-trade with that army type. *Edit* I've suggested it before and I'll say it again, if they don't move out by 11:00, I'm making infestors. If they use this 14:30 move-out I'm just going to mass-fungal them and hope its enough to kill off a big portion of their push. However, even that is still close to a coin-toss if they go for this sort of build.
Why don't you address and discredit what I wrote on the matter, using this 'overwhelming evidence'
Literally every point I make works out against both a well timed immortal/sentry push, and one that comes 2-4 minutes later.
"Its a strategy that literally has do no multi-task that requires 0 skill and 0 effort"
Quit using arguments like this, they're nothing other than blatant whining. Is a 4gate easier to execute than the defense of one? How about the old roach/ling aggression vs a 3gate expo, easier to execute than defend? Regardless of the answers, these arguments hold no merit, as the fact of the matter is that they're quite defend-able. I challenge you to show me a replay in which the zerg player does everything right and still loses.
At a point, the person executing an allin puts the game into the opponents hands: they chose a strategy that if the other player identifies and executes proper defense they're helpless to win. You're not executing correctly.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 16 2012 04:17 KhAmun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 21:29 sCCrooked wrote:On July 15 2012 21:20 Pyrena wrote:
I really wish you'd commentate on the second half of my post.
It's not like 2 base all-in into 2base turtle into 200/200 unit composition of x is something you will
see in highlevel-play, because it isn't self rewarding.
Every minute the protoss is on 2base vs. 3, he actually gets more and more behind.
You absolutely have to prepare for it if he does move out in the next second, but you have to switch to a
more heavy weapon if he doesn't.
I really encourage you to try some baneling-play if you face that kind of problems. I was going to try saving you some face by not showing that part, but these are just really bad comments said in the face of overwhelming evidence. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337516That right there is a link to the long thread of discussion following a build and style suggested by EmpireMista. Other Protosses have since created variations of this build. These are progamers. The others that have been using variances of this build are GM at the top and continue all the way down to mineral-league levels. It IS self-rewarding in a very big way. You can even see Mista winning against Code S Stephano using this build in an embedded VOD. bane/ling is not effective either. The only option they really mentioned there was a base-trade with that army type. *Edit* I've suggested it before and I'll say it again, if they don't move out by 11:00, I'm making infestors. If they use this 14:30 move-out I'm just going to mass-fungal them and hope its enough to kill off a big portion of their push. However, even that is still close to a coin-toss if they go for this sort of build. Why don't you address and discredit what I wrote on the matter, using this 'overwhelming evidence' Literally every point I make works out against both a well timed immortal/sentry push, and one that comes 2-4 minutes later. "Its a strategy that literally has do no multi-task that requires 0 skill and 0 effort" Quit using arguments like this, they're nothing other than blatant whining. Is a 4gate easier to execute than the defense of one? How about the old roach/ling aggression vs a 3gate expo, easier to execute than defend? Regardless of the answers, these arguments hold no merit, as the fact of the matter is that they're quite defend-able. I challenge you to show me a replay in which the zerg player does everything right and still loses. At a point, the person executing an allin puts the game into the opponents hands: they chose a strategy that if the other player identifies and executes proper defense they're helpless to win. You're not executing correctly.
Last night at NASL when MC made a surprising comeback in game 4 or 5 on Ohana against Stephano.
The only thing that Stephano could have done is prepare for an attack, but he just defended a massive allin and was Droning up then BAM, even commentators were shocked as were people who are watching it (the stream chat), no one expected that, MC kept the ramp Force Fielded and Stephano couldn't do anything to save his main.
He won the series, but he lost that game, superb play by both players, but MC had his number.
Also, anyone that plays "perfectly" (you cannot play perfectly, that would require no worker ever trying to find a mineral patch on his own, splitting Marines so good that only 1 Baneling can hit them etc) and the opponent making some mistakes will win, regardless if he is Terran, Zerg or Protoss.
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^ Baneling drops take way too long to finish... if you start drop tech immediately, assuming a standard 7:15 lair (and most zergs dont even get lair that early anymore, by the way), your drop tech will finish at 10:45. That's 15 seconds after immortals are shooting your hatchery.
Saying that 'yea but it holds against the variation of immortal/sentry that hits later' doesn't really help either - you can't reliably scout to know if your opponent is doing an outdated version of the all-in (which is less popular anyways), and you could just do a type of hold that would survive against either version (base trade, basically).
I think sCCrooked's advice of saving supply after 170 against a 2 base Toss to get infestors is good advice. Although what happens if Toss switches into colossus I'm not sure.
I think what sCCrooked is talking about, is something I sparked - Toss who do some sort of 2 base robo all-in like immortal/sentry, except they don't push out and instead just mass units. I get what you are saying about talking about how easy or hard a build is to execute is not helpful, but even Naniwa has commented saying how much easier immortal/sentry all-in is to execute than to defend, and the discussion here is focused not on how to hold such pushes, but actually on the fact that it almost requires a different response to hold a 'good' 10:20 immortal/sentry all-in, and a diamond doing it where he just masses immortals on 2 base and pushes at 11:00.
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I haven't seen that immortal senty in action much, so I wonder how it is so effective. Both are low-dps vs zerglings, right? IF you have roaches in ranged e.g., it will hurt.
But they "ball" can't move close to a wall all game. So many forcefields will be lost if you attack and withdraw constantly, unless big portions of lings are "walled in" every time. But then they can damage the ball.
I mean... what good dps is this vs small light units? And more lings sent vs their bases to distract or damage, while attacking the main army, sounds like it could work?
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On July 16 2012 04:26 Belial88 wrote:
^ Baneling drops take way too long to finish... if you start drop tech immediately, assuming a standard 7:15 lair (and most zergs dont even get lair that early anymore, by the way), your drop tech will finish at 10:45. That's 15 seconds after immortals are shooting your hatchery.
Saying that 'yea but it holds against the variation of immortal/sentry that hits later' doesn't really help either - you can't reliably scout to know if your opponent is doing an outdated version of the all-in (which is less popular anyways), and you could just do a type of hold that would survive against either version (base trade, basically).
I think sCCrooked's advice of saving supply after 170 against a 2 base Toss to get infestors is good advice. Although what happens if Toss switches into colossus I'm not sure.
I think what sCCrooked is talking about, is something I sparked - Toss who do some sort of 2 base robo all-in like immortal/sentry, except they don't push out and instead just mass units. I get what you are saying about talking about how easy or hard a build is to execute is not helpful, but even Naniwa has commented saying how much easier immortal/sentry all-in is to execute than to defend, and the discussion here is focused not on how to hold such pushes, but actually on the fact that it almost requires a different response to hold a 'good' 10:20 immortal/sentry all-in, and a diamond doing it where he just masses immortals on 2 base and pushes at 11:00.
Why can't you lair earlier? The standard timing involves getting roach warrens at 7 minutes to deal with aggression. You can double gas at 5 minutes, lair at 6 minutes, and get ling/baneling with drops out by 9:30 and thus skip roaches entirely. This also allows you to harass his main and base race, just as with going muta/ling, without the vulnerability to direct timing attacks.
I've tried doing this, but I'm not very good at hitting injects while harassing with drops and stuff, so I always end up floating way too much money on 4 bases even with 2 macro hatches and just dying. So I can't really tell.... maybe someone better has tried this?
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On July 16 2012 04:26 Belial88 wrote:
^ Baneling drops take way too long to finish... if you start drop tech immediately, assuming a standard 7:15 lair (and most zergs dont even get lair that early anymore, by the way), your drop tech will finish at 10:45. That's 15 seconds after immortals are shooting your hatchery.
Saying that 'yea but it holds against the variation of immortal/sentry that hits later' doesn't really help either - you can't reliably scout to know if your opponent is doing an outdated version of the all-in (which is less popular anyways), and you could just do a type of hold that would survive against either version (base trade, basically).
I think sCCrooked's advice of saving supply after 170 against a 2 base Toss to get infestors is good advice. Although what happens if Toss switches into colossus I'm not sure.
I think what sCCrooked is talking about, is something I sparked - Toss who do some sort of 2 base robo all-in like immortal/sentry, except they don't push out and instead just mass units. I get what you are saying about talking about how easy or hard a build is to execute is not helpful, but even Naniwa has commented saying how much easier immortal/sentry all-in is to execute than to defend, and the discussion here is focused not on how to hold such pushes, but actually on the fact that it almost requires a different response to hold a 'good' 10:20 immortal/sentry all-in, and a diamond doing it where he just masses immortals on 2 base and pushes at 11:00.
I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying. By no means am I saying you want drops to defend a standard immortal/sentry timing. You're saying that you need to react differently to a crisp immortal/sentry and a giant immortal sentry turtle push that comes 3-4 minutes later, I disagree:
In the first scenario, defending requires around 55-60 drone roach/ling max style, and you're typically (if i recall correctly) around 150 supply when they move out for a crisp timing. Okay, great, you engage in an open area on the map, waste some FF, pick off a few sentries, and hold the push either there or at your base.
In the second scenario: you assume they're going to hit a good timing, you react the same way. Only this time, you reach 170-80 supply without protoss having moved out yet, it's clear they're going to just turtle into a big 2base immortal/gateway ball and attack around 160 supply. So now you begin drop tech (I build baneling nest when lair is ~20% done for the instance they aren't hitting an earlier timing) and instead of having max roach/ling when you engage because you maxed out thinking they were about to move out, you have roach/ling baneling drops, which crushes immortal/gateway.
In the instance that they move out before you/re prepared. (contrasting my suggestion with crookeds)
If you wait at 170 supply for infestors, there is a window that you're expecting to have a bit of time, as you're pinning them on a certain timing. What if you don't have this time? What if instead of waiting for like 4-5 additional immortals as you were expecting, they were waiting for 2 more? You've just started-- or are preparing to start infestors that can't be relied upon to be out in time, and you're left with pure maxed roach/ling. Might you win this battle sometimes, yes, but it won't be consistent or reliable. If you can get those infestors out, and they were right about the number of immortals they were waiting for, good for you! But that won't be consistent.
Same scenario, only this time you weren't saving supply, as the tech you're investing in doesn't require additional supply to be utilized, it's morphed from your existing supply. So instead of making emergency units, you already have that supply, and are morphing banelings. So in the end you're maxed, but with roach/ling/bane rather than pure roach/ling.
You're only recognizing two timings: the crisp, early timing, and the super late one. going roach/ling and then saving supply for infestors can deal with both of those. My method also deals with both of those equally effectively.
The difference is if you miscalculate the timing, and get caught w/o infestors, you're left with a weaker army (pure roach/ling) to fight with than if were to keep making units, and could fight with roach/ling/baneling.
Even without drops roach/ling/baneling is much better than roach/ling in the instance you get caught while teching.
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On July 16 2012 04:25 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 04:17 KhAmun wrote:On July 15 2012 21:29 sCCrooked wrote:On July 15 2012 21:20 Pyrena wrote:
I really wish you'd commentate on the second half of my post.
It's not like 2 base all-in into 2base turtle into 200/200 unit composition of x is something you will
see in highlevel-play, because it isn't self rewarding.
Every minute the protoss is on 2base vs. 3, he actually gets more and more behind.
You absolutely have to prepare for it if he does move out in the next second, but you have to switch to a
more heavy weapon if he doesn't.
I really encourage you to try some baneling-play if you face that kind of problems. I was going to try saving you some face by not showing that part, but these are just really bad comments said in the face of overwhelming evidence. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337516That right there is a link to the long thread of discussion following a build and style suggested by EmpireMista. Other Protosses have since created variations of this build. These are progamers. The others that have been using variances of this build are GM at the top and continue all the way down to mineral-league levels. It IS self-rewarding in a very big way. You can even see Mista winning against Code S Stephano using this build in an embedded VOD. bane/ling is not effective either. The only option they really mentioned there was a base-trade with that army type. *Edit* I've suggested it before and I'll say it again, if they don't move out by 11:00, I'm making infestors. If they use this 14:30 move-out I'm just going to mass-fungal them and hope its enough to kill off a big portion of their push. However, even that is still close to a coin-toss if they go for this sort of build. Why don't you address and discredit what I wrote on the matter, using this 'overwhelming evidence' Literally every point I make works out against both a well timed immortal/sentry push, and one that comes 2-4 minutes later. "Its a strategy that literally has do no multi-task that requires 0 skill and 0 effort" Quit using arguments like this, they're nothing other than blatant whining. Is a 4gate easier to execute than the defense of one? How about the old roach/ling aggression vs a 3gate expo, easier to execute than defend? Regardless of the answers, these arguments hold no merit, as the fact of the matter is that they're quite defend-able. I challenge you to show me a replay in which the zerg player does everything right and still loses. At a point, the person executing an allin puts the game into the opponents hands: they chose a strategy that if the other player identifies and executes proper defense they're helpless to win. You're not executing correctly. Last night at NASL when MC made a surprising comeback in game 4 or 5 on Ohana against Stephano. The only thing that Stephano could have done is prepare for an attack, but he just defended a massive allin and was Droning up then BAM, even commentators were shocked as were people who are watching it (the stream chat), no one expected that, MC kept the ramp Force Fielded and Stephano couldn't do anything to save his main. He won the series, but he lost that game, superb play by both players, but MC had his number. Also, anyone that plays "perfectly" (you cannot play perfectly, that would require no worker ever trying to find a mineral patch on his own, splitting Marines so good that only 1 Baneling can hit them etc) and the opponent making some mistakes will win, regardless if he is Terran, Zerg or Protoss.
I'm not sure how this story is relevant, what does it illustrate in the current discussion? And I didn't say playing perfectly, I said doing everything right, which in the context was regarding a proper defense of a specific allin: meaning drone count, unit composition, positioning and engagement. Not splitting workers without flaw.
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On July 16 2012 00:17 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 23:54 wcr.4fun wrote:
What's the best way to handle with early pressure from a Toss when you're going the standard 3 hatch (14 pool 15 hatch as opening) before gas. Lings don't waste any gass, but most often they'll have +1 on their zealots which means you need even more lings. You could get roaches but that means you'd have to get your roach warren at 6 minutes or earlier to have some roaches to hold that off (typically hits at 7.30 or something).
Same question to the early 3 zealot pressure (after FFE).
Is it acceptable to make spine crawlers or just mass lings (both situations)? I feel 1 spine crawler + your queen can sure scare the toss a lot (which might end up being a lot less intense on your larvae). You'll have to be a bit more specific with "early pressure" as in "from how many gates?" but I'll try to give a generalized answer. The biggest thing is scouting his gate count and when they're up. Its also a good idea to send in a ling every 30 seconds to his front to just keep an eye on his move-out time and his zealot count. If they're indeed waiting for +1 to finish, I'm guessing this is a 4 gate +1 zealot pressure into delayed robo+warpgate all-in. There's a way to see this coming with an overlord at his natural and look at his gas geysers. If he has no geysers at 6:45, you should be worried about this potentially coming. Plop down your roach warren immediately (if he has no gas by 6:30, you can put it down then too to be safer but it will cost you a little economy) and cut your droning up at about 7:00-7:15 depending on his move-out timing. Switch into pure roach/ling and you should be able to hold it. There's another variation which is more of a 2 or 3 gate expand (its kind of bad and weird but you'll see it on ladder). The way I handle this is scouting the earlier gates and making sufficient lings accordingly. Then, I watch carefully during the zealot attack with an overlord in their main to see when they add on the secondary wave of gates and pump robo units. There's a small window where you have enough to hold off their zealot pressure and you can get a round of drones in. This should boost your economy to over 60 drones and thusly enough to hold off the next all-in push. If I didn't answer your concern here, please make another post and be more specific about which variation you meant (or supply a replay, that helps!)
My apologies, I should have been more specific.
I meant more something in the lines of: They fast expand with forge. And use their one gate at the wall to make 3 zealots and go.
And the other situation was more something along the lines of them having one gate constantly producing some stalkers and zealots. He makes a robo and adds some gates (at 7 minutes or something). The push came around 7.45. So he built a robo and was taking an expansion behind this. He just pressured me with these units he built from one base and also took a probe with him and warped in some extra units. He was in no way all-in and took his gasses at his natural.
I can hold this, but I'm just wondering what's the most optimal way to handle these situations (especially versus the 3 zealot push immediately after FFE) -> should I just make a spine or two, or make a bunch of lings (these 3 zealots, possibly a stalker as well, can kill quite a lot of lings so that's a heavy blow to your economy (larvae)).
I'll try to post a replay if I get to play versus it again. The other replays are really bad play from both sides (diamond lvl).
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In the first scenario, defending requires around 55-60 drone roach/ling max style, and you're typically (if i recall correctly) around 150 supply when they move out for a crisp timing. Okay, great, you engage in an open area on the map, waste some FF, pick off a few sentries, and hold the push either there or at your base.
I don't know... Toss pushes out by 9:30, you can maybe delay Toss' push and waste some FF, but you can't straight up hold the push there...
In the GSL when I see people fight the immortal/sentry all-in, with roach/ling, it's more like outside their third, and just barely fighting. Every single time I've seen this approach, the Zerg loses their third, although twice the Zerg kills the Toss army after losing the third (you could say these were mistakes on Toss' part with overcommitting though).
But I don't know if it's like, max on roach/ling, hold it, then get baneling drop tech. That would be like just throwing in a quick pre-9:00 lair vs a 7 gate +1 gateway all-in, where you really need roach/ling pumped constantly to hold.
In the second scenario: you assume they're going to hit a good timing, you react the same way. Only this time, you reach 170-80 supply without protoss having moved out yet, it's clear they're going to just turtle into a big 2base immortal/gateway ball and attack around 160 supply. So now you begin drop tech (I build baneling nest when lair is ~20% done for the instance they aren't hitting an earlier timing) and instead of having max roach/ling when you engage because you maxed out thinking they were about to move out, you have roach/ling baneling drops, which crushes immortal/gateway.
Drop tech takes a long time. I don't know if you can get a 130 second research done by the time they hit. So you see Toss is doing this 'stupid' sort of push, and instead of hitting your base at 10:30, they hit at 12:00. Well that would probably mean you realize what's up at 10:00, but it takes more than 2 minutes for drop research to finish.
If you wait at 170 supply for infestors, there is a window that you're expecting to have a bit of time, as you're pinning them on a certain timing. What if you don't have this time? What if instead of waiting for like 4-5 additional immortals as you were expecting, they were waiting for 2 more? You've just started-- or are preparing to start infestors that can't be relied upon to be out in time, and you're left with pure maxed roach/ling. Might you win this battle sometimes, yes, but it won't be consistent or reliable. If you can get those infestors out, and they were right about the number of immortals they were waiting for, good for you! But that won't be consistent.
You could say the same thing about drop tech, but yea, I kind of agree.
This is why, personally, when I see someone opening robo, what i do is throw down a spire, cancel or not do any roach upgrades/warren, and go for a quick nestea style muta base trade.
This is similar to what blade55555 has advocated, and what the only 2 people who's held an immortal/sentry all-in at gomtv, has done (hyun and nestea) - base traded by massing spines in your natural, sac the third, and then base trade, with roach/ling (hyun, blade555555) or mutas (what I like to do, and nestea did).
You can check out the 'nesteas anti immortal/sentry' thread about this, but I've had great success doing this - if Toss goes for the all-in, it's a very close game but I think it is the correct solution (base trading, although mutas work as well as roach/ling), but the added plus is that going mutas is it just crushes any sort of 1-5 gate robo expand, as well as 'stupid' play like double robo or 12:00 'bad' sentry/immortal.
I guess when I've lost to these 'stupid' pushes, it was against someone who did, like, a 4 gate +1 timing, or some sort of weird opening like that, i crush the opening using roach/ling as you need to, and then the Toss transitions into robotech for a sentry/immortal mass and well it's too late (imo) to go mutas, so I go infestors, but then toss just gets a ridiculous amount of immortals, maybe even adds colossi, and I lose.
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On July 16 2012 07:07 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +In the first scenario, defending requires around 55-60 drone roach/ling max style, and you're typically (if i recall correctly) around 150 supply when they move out for a crisp timing. Okay, great, you engage in an open area on the map, waste some FF, pick off a few sentries, and hold the push either there or at your base. I don't know... Toss pushes out by 9:30, you can maybe delay Toss' push and waste some FF, but you can't straight up hold the push there... In the GSL when I see people fight the immortal/sentry all-in, with roach/ling, it's more like outside their third, and just barely fighting. Every single time I've seen this approach, the Zerg loses their third, although twice the Zerg kills the Toss army after losing the third (you could say these were mistakes on Toss' part with overcommitting though). But I don't know if it's like, max on roach/ling, hold it, then get baneling drop tech. That would be like just throwing in a quick pre-9:00 lair vs a 7 gate +1 gateway all-in, where you really need roach/ling pumped constantly to hold. Show nested quote +In the second scenario: you assume they're going to hit a good timing, you react the same way. Only this time, you reach 170-80 supply without protoss having moved out yet, it's clear they're going to just turtle into a big 2base immortal/gateway ball and attack around 160 supply. So now you begin drop tech (I build baneling nest when lair is ~20% done for the instance they aren't hitting an earlier timing) and instead of having max roach/ling when you engage because you maxed out thinking they were about to move out, you have roach/ling baneling drops, which crushes immortal/gateway.
Drop tech takes a long time. I don't know if you can get a 130 second research done by the time they hit. So you see Toss is doing this 'stupid' sort of push, and instead of hitting your base at 10:30, they hit at 12:00. Well that would probably mean you realize what's up at 10:00, but it takes more than 2 minutes for drop research to finish. Show nested quote +If you wait at 170 supply for infestors, there is a window that you're expecting to have a bit of time, as you're pinning them on a certain timing. What if you don't have this time? What if instead of waiting for like 4-5 additional immortals as you were expecting, they were waiting for 2 more? You've just started-- or are preparing to start infestors that can't be relied upon to be out in time, and you're left with pure maxed roach/ling. Might you win this battle sometimes, yes, but it won't be consistent or reliable. If you can get those infestors out, and they were right about the number of immortals they were waiting for, good for you! But that won't be consistent. You could say the same thing about drop tech, but yea, I kind of agree. This is why, personally, when I see someone opening robo, what i do is throw down a spire, cancel or not do any roach upgrades/warren, and go for a quick nestea style muta base trade. This is similar to what blade55555 has advocated, and what the only 2 people who's held an immortal/sentry all-in at gomtv, has done (hyun and nestea) - base traded by massing spines in your natural, sac the third, and then base trade, with roach/ling (hyun, blade555555) or mutas (what I like to do, and nestea did). You can check out the 'nesteas anti immortal/sentry' thread about this, but I've had great success doing this - if Toss goes for the all-in, it's a very close game but I think it is the correct solution (base trading, although mutas work as well as roach/ling), but the added plus is that going mutas is it just crushes any sort of 1-5 gate robo expand, as well as 'stupid' play like double robo or 12:00 'bad' sentry/immortal. I guess when I've lost to these 'stupid' pushes, it was against someone who did, like, a 4 gate +1 timing, or some sort of weird opening like that, i crush the opening using roach/ling as you need to, and then the Toss transitions into robotech for a sentry/immortal mass and well it's too late (imo) to go mutas, so I go infestors, but then toss just gets a ridiculous amount of immortals, maybe even adds colossi, and I lose.
On July 16 2012 07:07 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +In the first scenario, defending requires around 55-60 drone roach/ling max style, and you're typically (if i recall correctly) around 150 supply when they move out for a crisp timing. Okay, great, you engage in an open area on the map, waste some FF, pick off a few sentries, and hold the push either there or at your base. I don't know... Toss pushes out by 9:30, you can maybe delay Toss' push and waste some FF, but you can't straight up hold the push there...
Yeah you aren't supposed to actually hold the push there, only waste FF, and when they cut off a few roaches/lings use them to focus full energy sentries. As for the GSL games, I don't know which ones you're referring to, and I don't know if their losing can be chalked up to using roach/ling specifically, one would have to review drone count, positioning, and the actual engagement. I do believe roach/ling is the proper way to hold directly, you can also base trade (which is particularly good vs this strategy, as typically they don't have a probe/pylons on the map.)
I don't understand your analogy to the 7gate +1 timing, I feel the need to reiterate I'm not suggesting having drop tech out by 10 or 11 minutes, but rather by around 13:00, as that is around when you would need it to defeat a ~160 immortal deathball on 2base.
On a side note I love the muta style, I use it regularly.
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Hello I need help with my ZvX macro.
After Lair finishes I usually drop down infestation pit and spire.
Make a round of mutas and use it throughout the game to deny drops/harass/map control.
As well as starting 2/2 and getting infestors and hive out.
The problem I have is, I tend to float a LOT of minerals and my end game goal is to get brood lords so I don't really want to waste all my supply on zerglings.
Does anyone know how I can fix this problem?
Or here is a replay and I would like some help please.
http://drop.sc/222673
I did win this game, but there is a lot of problems with my macro and I would really appreciate some constructive criticism.
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I know a lot of people have asked this but what is everyone's current go to strat vs each race at a high level? (Top 8 Masters atm but MMR is still between that and mid masters at the moment.)
I still stick with mostly outdate styles. (14/14 zvz into speedling bane for the longest time, mutas in ZvT, and normal ZvP stuff.) I'm just curious if I should really be dedicating my time to say infestor, ling or just try to fix my current style.
Obviously, pros switch because that style is seemingly better, but is it really worth forcing myself to learn? (I guess it is because I do want to get better, but how long has it taken some of you other players)
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On July 16 2012 13:32 Drmooose wrote:
I know a lot of people have asked this but what is everyone's current go to strat vs each race at a high level? (Top 8 Masters atm but MMR is still between that and mid masters at the moment.)
I still stick with mostly outdate styles. (14/14 zvz into speedling bane for the longest time, mutas in ZvT, and normal ZvP stuff.) I'm just curious if I should really be dedicating my time to say infestor, ling or just try to fix my current style.
Obviously, pros switch because that style is seemingly better, but is it really worth forcing myself to learn? (I guess it is because I do want to get better, but how long has it taken some of you other players)
I'm around a similar level. 14/14 is still perfectly valid opening even though most people tend to go hatch first. You just need to abuse the lack of scouting and map presence they have and you should come out of the early game even or ahead. In terms of mid game i go Ling infestor which is quite strong at the moment and if you can successfully defend your third against any all in then you will be in a great position to destroy them when your ultras come out. I believe it is way better than going roaches because of the counters and map presence you have with upgraded lings. Be warned though, you will lose a lot of games at first because it takes quite a while to learn all the defensive timings.
ZvT i go no gas queen expo (@ around 6mins) into ling(bling) infestor and into quick hive (choose broods or ultras depending on unit comp of T, basically how many tanks theyre making). This style is quite easy to be honest. Mutas is actually a much harder style to master because of the multitasking it forces you to do in controlling mutas for harass and whatever else.
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On July 16 2012 09:08 KhAmun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 07:07 Belial88 wrote:In the first scenario, defending requires around 55-60 drone roach/ling max style, and you're typically (if i recall correctly) around 150 supply when they move out for a crisp timing. Okay, great, you engage in an open area on the map, waste some FF, pick off a few sentries, and hold the push either there or at your base. I don't know... Toss pushes out by 9:30, you can maybe delay Toss' push and waste some FF, but you can't straight up hold the push there... In the GSL when I see people fight the immortal/sentry all-in, with roach/ling, it's more like outside their third, and just barely fighting. Every single time I've seen this approach, the Zerg loses their third, although twice the Zerg kills the Toss army after losing the third (you could say these were mistakes on Toss' part with overcommitting though). But I don't know if it's like, max on roach/ling, hold it, then get baneling drop tech. That would be like just throwing in a quick pre-9:00 lair vs a 7 gate +1 gateway all-in, where you really need roach/ling pumped constantly to hold. In the second scenario: you assume they're going to hit a good timing, you react the same way. Only this time, you reach 170-80 supply without protoss having moved out yet, it's clear they're going to just turtle into a big 2base immortal/gateway ball and attack around 160 supply. So now you begin drop tech (I build baneling nest when lair is ~20% done for the instance they aren't hitting an earlier timing) and instead of having max roach/ling when you engage because you maxed out thinking they were about to move out, you have roach/ling baneling drops, which crushes immortal/gateway.
Drop tech takes a long time. I don't know if you can get a 130 second research done by the time they hit. So you see Toss is doing this 'stupid' sort of push, and instead of hitting your base at 10:30, they hit at 12:00. Well that would probably mean you realize what's up at 10:00, but it takes more than 2 minutes for drop research to finish. If you wait at 170 supply for infestors, there is a window that you're expecting to have a bit of time, as you're pinning them on a certain timing. What if you don't have this time? What if instead of waiting for like 4-5 additional immortals as you were expecting, they were waiting for 2 more? You've just started-- or are preparing to start infestors that can't be relied upon to be out in time, and you're left with pure maxed roach/ling. Might you win this battle sometimes, yes, but it won't be consistent or reliable. If you can get those infestors out, and they were right about the number of immortals they were waiting for, good for you! But that won't be consistent. You could say the same thing about drop tech, but yea, I kind of agree. This is why, personally, when I see someone opening robo, what i do is throw down a spire, cancel or not do any roach upgrades/warren, and go for a quick nestea style muta base trade. This is similar to what blade55555 has advocated, and what the only 2 people who's held an immortal/sentry all-in at gomtv, has done (hyun and nestea) - base traded by massing spines in your natural, sac the third, and then base trade, with roach/ling (hyun, blade555555) or mutas (what I like to do, and nestea did). You can check out the 'nesteas anti immortal/sentry' thread about this, but I've had great success doing this - if Toss goes for the all-in, it's a very close game but I think it is the correct solution (base trading, although mutas work as well as roach/ling), but the added plus is that going mutas is it just crushes any sort of 1-5 gate robo expand, as well as 'stupid' play like double robo or 12:00 'bad' sentry/immortal. I guess when I've lost to these 'stupid' pushes, it was against someone who did, like, a 4 gate +1 timing, or some sort of weird opening like that, i crush the opening using roach/ling as you need to, and then the Toss transitions into robotech for a sentry/immortal mass and well it's too late (imo) to go mutas, so I go infestors, but then toss just gets a ridiculous amount of immortals, maybe even adds colossi, and I lose. Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 07:07 Belial88 wrote:In the first scenario, defending requires around 55-60 drone roach/ling max style, and you're typically (if i recall correctly) around 150 supply when they move out for a crisp timing. Okay, great, you engage in an open area on the map, waste some FF, pick off a few sentries, and hold the push either there or at your base. I don't know... Toss pushes out by 9:30, you can maybe delay Toss' push and waste some FF, but you can't straight up hold the push there... Yeah you aren't supposed to actually hold the push there, only waste FF, and when they cut off a few roaches/lings use them to focus full energy sentries. As for the GSL games, I don't know which ones you're referring to, and I don't know if their losing can be chalked up to using roach/ling specifically, one would have to review drone count, positioning, and the actual engagement. I do believe roach/ling is the proper way to hold directly, you can also base trade (which is particularly good vs this strategy, as typically they don't have a probe/pylons on the map.) I don't understand your analogy to the 7gate +1 timing, I feel the need to reiterate I'm not suggesting having drop tech out by 10 or 11 minutes, but rather by around 13:00, as that is around when you would need it to defeat a ~160 immortal deathball on 2base. On a side note I love the muta style, I use it regularly.
There have many games where Toss goes immortal/sentry all-in vs Zerg, and zerg almost never beats wins. These are the only occassions they have:
1. Very recently, leenock vs someone on daybreak... leenock loses his third, but with broodlings, drones, queens, and his roach/ling army, he beats the immortal/sentry army that backed itself into a corner. i believe that the Toss lost by making mistakes (wasting wayyy too much FF, really bad positioning, overcommitting instead of backing off), but maybe Leenock planned to lose his third, as the situation became Zerg having a big army, Toss having no army, both on 2 base, but Zerg can take his third while Toss can't.
2. Cloud Kingdom. Forgot who was it, gstl. Toss simply forgets 2 of his 3 immortals, and isn't paying attention at the first engagement and lets all of his sentries die to like 15 lings. I'd definitely chalk this up to a mistake on Toss.
3. A while back, on cloud kingdom. symbol i think? Or bbongbbong. Someone like that. Again, Toss overcommits, he takes out the third, Zerg goes for roach burrow, Toss tries to bust up natural, loses his entire army when he should have just backed off.
4. Nestea - lots of lings after 8;30, but rushed spire, no roach warren, 4xgas by 7:30,6xgas by 8:00 (ie very very quickly). Nestea starts massing spines in his natural, and makes pure lings, and leaves the rest at home when Toss pushes. Wins with a base trade.
5. Hyun - Just like nestea's hold, but with roach/ling instead. Abandons third, makes spines at home.
I have never seen anyone hold with baneling drops, and I haven't seen anyone hold by doing the 'just bait ff's on his way over and then when he arrives you can hold!' approach - Toss just has way too many sentries, you won't have enough army to really bait enough FF to be worthwhile, and you can't make a ground army to hold anyways, Toss is just committing too much to an anti-roach/ling army.
I really think base trading is the only reliable way to beat roach/ling. Furthermore, while roach/ling mass counterattack is a great way to hold immortal/sentry all-in, I think the problem with is that this type of approach does not work as well if Toss goes for a robo expand instead, and I also think it wouldn't hold up as well to someone doing something like turtle robo mass, or twilight/robo, or basically pushes out later so he has enough to steamroll through the main and have enough income to mass cannons at home, army, etc.
I guess drop tech would work. I'm not arguing it wouldn't. I'm sure that among many things would work against a Toss doing some sort of 'bad' turtle on 2 base. I don't think I should be knocking against it. I think personally, i would prefer quick muta route vs robo openings, or going infestors once you identify Toss is turtling and you couldn't go the muta route for whatever reason, but whatever.
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The debate here regarding the delay in protoss move out is completely silly. In most of the current maps, a protoss army move out should be detected by you immediately. A protoss push has to walk across the map, maybe plant a pylon, and hug walls, which gives us zergs time to prepare.
Abuse our larvae mechanic. We can't expect one round of larvae to allow us to build our entire army, but if you don't see the initial force moving out at a time that they should, throw down the infestation pit. Put down some spines and exchange it for new drones. Drone a little,even. Even if you have the bad luck that they move out the moment you threw down your infestation pit, it's only 100m 100g. If you doubt you can hold because of the resources cost, cancel it. The time where the protoss move out from their base to when we should engage will take more time then the 27 sec a roach takes to build.
P.S. Posturing with your army infront of the protoss base can delay their advance across the map for a long time.
2 base protosses that delay their all in timing, especially below masters are ridiculously easy to handle.
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But when it's in masters+, it's ridiculously hard to handle, especially if you didn't go super fast mutas (which is what i always do vs robo play, but sometimes you can't really do that because you made a ton of roaches, like if toss opened 4 gate +1 or you just couldnt get a solid scout off). I guess the lesson is just if Toss doesn't push out by 10:00, grab your 5th and 6th gases and get some sort of tech going. I guess if they push like at 10:01, then just mass spines at your natural and go for the base trade with a much bigger army.
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How do you deal with 1 rax CC to 4 rax marine pressure when you open gasless into 4-6 queens? The marines come when third is not done yet and when baneling nest just started or about halfway. They usually come with 12+ marines and it's really hard to deal with with slow lings.
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On July 16 2012 18:51 nicke10 wrote:
How do you deal with 1 rax CC to 4 rax marine pressure when you open gasless into 4-6 queens? The marines come when third is not done yet and when baneling nest just started or about halfway. They usually come with 12+ marines and it's really hard to deal with with slow lings. Try to get creep close to your third and root your spine there and make a few slowlings and defend with them + queen.
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Every so often i toy with the idea of building a hydra den if i think an all-in is coming, is that viable at a high level against those robo timings? Or do you get screwed by the collo transition?
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I was wondering if it was at all possible to create a style of play that never engaged the opponent directly?
We have all these units that can infiltrate and cause damage, I feel like you could win simply by relying on baneling mines, infestor drops, utilizing roach burrow, maybe mutas.
Has anyone ever tried this? Is it possible?
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EPT
