EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 322
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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whatevername
471 Posts
On July 17 2012 19:19 NoNonsense wrote: Do I keep my muta count lower than normal or go up to the traditional 22~ ish?Why couldn't you keep up on upgrades? Just prioritize both ground upgrades over everything. Your muta count should be used to prevent drops and clean up the medivacs after every battle. I find that against pure bio muta is excellent. You have ling/bane to clean up the army(without tank banes are so much more powerful) and muta to keep medivac count low. Depending on the situation, sometimes i will engage the battle with my ling/bane while my muta are shift clicked on medivacs. Mutas don't do that much damage anyway. So engagement goes like this. Ling surround/flank and attack move at the right position Bling right click at the marines running away/splitting Muta shift click on medivacs. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On July 17 2012 10:19 WahMyNose wrote: Usually when I see mech the Terran will get quite a few more Tanks than cAlmMind did in that game (maybe 4 or 5, getting one thor in between) before starting the mass thor production. It just seems to me like that attack wouldn't really do much if a few more Tanks were involved rather than Thors. Also, it seems pretty situational map-to-map (i.e. I really can't see that attack working on Entombed). You seem to have experience doing this, though, so I'd like to hear how it works out on different maps and vs. more tanks. http://drop.sc/223546 I had the fortune of meeting a meching terran on entombed that got around 4-5 tanks and started producing thors, just like you said. I still did the drop and, like you said, it really didn't do much. (I guess I'll have to rethink this part of the strat) I think it killed a tank or two and some hellions. Nothing major. Behind the push, however, I got infestors, and when he pushed out, I threw down IT's everywhere! and attacked with roaches to mop up his thors. Then I was able to just bumrush him maxed out on roaches ftw. ---- Edit: Looking at the army/supply graph from the game, that drop attack did more harm than good...but then the power of infested terrans shines through shortly after as his supply plummets. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
For ling bling muta in zvp and zvt when should i expand and take my gasses/evos. I'm just kind of clueless. Maybe a build order would help Fourth is pretty automatic these days. you should be taking it as soon as you see T/P posturing for their third. You can still do any sort of pressure with taking that fourth anyways (3 base econ is pretty good), and there's no reason not to take it. Like I state in my guides - Zerg defends 2 base aggression from opponent while taking their third (almost always before lair), then their economy kicks in and tech catches up (lair finishes and roach speed, infestors, mutas, etc), then they have total map control and control of the flow of the game and the opponent has to defend their third. People don't quite do the whole 'well i'll just take a fourth instead of a macro hatch' thing anymore, but you really do get that 4th almost automatically nowadays, as soon as you see the opponent going for their third or you know they are. Even if they aren't, it's basically once you have control of the game, ie map control. Map control is everything for zerg. It's not even about muta vs infestor vs mass roach or whatever, you just take that fourth asap, unless the opponent is obviously all-inning and you dont have an army and sweating if you'll survive. Hey guys, I have a question: What do you think of ultras/NP as opposed to broodlord/corruptor/infestor vs Mech? In ZvT, I always just go straight into broodlords vs mech play, and in general against Terran, no matter how many vikings they have or whatever, I just make more broodlord/corruptor/infestor. I have a very high win rate in ZvT, and I never fail with this, (thors are useless against corruptors, and vikings are a pain but if it's really a problem I'll mass spores under my broods). But the one weakness of BL/Infestor is that it's very weak to mass raven (yes, i know, something that never happens). So I was just wondering, do you guys use ultras vs mech? In what ways is it better than broodlords? | ||
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sLBoGoRoH
Netherlands126 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
personally i handle it with super fast mutas and base trading though, mass spines in nat. if he goes for third i dont mass spines in nat and instead make a macro hatch, fourth, etc. | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
Likewise just playing it out it very fast I got my gases at like 60 or something just mass droning and taking a third just before my gases, but that leaves me with a really really late zergling speed. Can 4 queens ACTUALLY hold like an early bundle of marines rushing out? I dont really see pro terrans ever try that, and regardless its just...im in a bit of disbeleif that I can remain safe with basically no army. TLDR: 6 queen hotkey issues edit: nvm I took my gases at 48 and my third hatch immediately after at 50, just before 7:00. Were the gases too fast? | ||
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BongSniper69
27 Posts
1. How do I beat Ling/Infestor into Ultras going Roach/Hydra/Infestor? Watching pro gamers play and from self expereince I understand that commiting to roach attacks before fully getting a good economy off 4 hatches (1 macro) is very risky, due to upgraded lings, spines, and infestors. Therefore I tend to attack with Roach/Infestor or Roach/Hydra/Infestor when I have a sizable army that can be refilled. Usually I tend to do very heavy economic damage, however almost every time he eventually fights back my army, gets a shitload of ultras out due to banking minerals, and even when he's lost his third base he manages to come out because of how innefective my units become to upgraded ultra/infestor. The only time I'm able to beat this is I got so far ahead in the early-mid game I am able to beat him with by Infestor push. What's the answer? 2. How do I deal with 1Gate Nexus expands? The first stalker pressure is incredibly annoying, and I cannot take a third right away. Usually I make some lings, get 3 queens, drone up, and slowly tech to +1 roaches. However, I almost always die to gateway pushes at my third. Watching the replay I'm never more than 5 drones ahead, yet I still get overwhelmed, usually only getting a few roaches out before I die. I can deal with forge FE pushes perfectly fine, being able to stop gateway timings and other 2 base aggression while being able to secure a much better economy. 3. What is the best way to prepare for marine timings attacking your third in zvt? I do the typical 2gas at 40 getting 3 queens for creep and defense. Sometimes I can get enough lings out, sometimes I can't. I'm not sure about the correct timings. I get my third hatch at 6:30 to 7:00. Also another ZvT question, what is the best time to scout? I scout after getting my 15hatch down, but I might start scouting earlier at 13 because of responding to certain builds. On July 18 2012 02:58 9-BiT wrote: For ling bling muta in zvp and zvt when should i expand and take my gasses/evos. I'm just kind of clueless. Maybe a build order would help. Not sure about ZvP, for ZvT DRG does the gasless queen build then takes 2 gases at 45. He gets speed, bane nest, then adds another 2 extractors. With 2 evo chambers starts melee and carapace before getting lair. Upon lair completion you should have bane nest and spire. By the time you're building the spire you will typically have 6 gases if you did not take damage and got the right hatch timing. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
1. How do I beat Ling/Infestor into Ultras going Roach/Hydra/Infestor? Watching pro gamers play and from self expereince I understand that commiting to roach attacks before fully getting a good economy off 4 hatches (1 macro) is very risky, due to upgraded lings, spines, and infestors. Therefore I tend to attack with Roach/Infestor or Roach/Hydra/Infestor when I have a sizable army that can be refilled. Usually I tend to do very heavy economic damage, however almost every time he eventually fights back my army, gets a shitload of ultras out due to banking minerals, and even when he's lost his third base he manages to come out because of how innefective my units become to upgraded ultra/infestor. The only time I'm able to beat this is I got so far ahead in the early-mid game I am able to beat him with by Infestor push. What's the answer? I don't know, it's a completely herpderp bullshit, skilless style, that's why I stopped playing good (3 hatch before lair roach based macro play) and just turtle herp derp. I take a third when the opponent takes a third, and if he's making roaches I mass a shitton of spines. If he attacks me, I chain FG your roaches and go counterattack and focus all of your bases down. Never fails. My recommendation? Switch to it, it's completely bullshit and it's extremely strong. I will say this though - of the people I've played, the best way to play against it is to turtle even harder. Roach based attacks against mass ling/infestor is not a good idea with 20 spines there. If you made any roaches before recognizing what was up or to secure your third, use a handful of them to delay the zerg's third as long as possible (you can't do that once infestors are out though, but you can sacrifice 10 roaches to delay their third) while making reinforcing roaches to your third and massing spines (unupgraded banes dont do shit against upgraded lings, so dont think leaving 6 banes at home will do anything). Then, grab a really quick fourth, basically double expanding, as soon as you see what's going on, and start a hive faster then the opponent. Don't make any infestors, and maybe mass spines, some banes, to make sure ling attacks won't kill you (ling/infestor as an army can actually be quite strong, so be prepared if the opponent masses infestors and actually attacks, which won't really kill you if you have enough roaches but be sure to have at least something, but you are at least safe to get 75 drones before making any roaches). Play even more passive. From there, you can either go ultras (ultras counter ling/infestor so hard, when its a game of ling/infestor vs ling/infestor, whoever gets ultras out first just wins the game straight up because ultras counter lings and less than 20 infestors so damn hard, so usually its a game of who makes the least infestors/quickest hive) and just do the same thing the opponent is doing and beat them at their own game because you got your third quicker and you only made 10 roaches and made lots of lings and spines and reactive banes with your quicker third and fourth, or on certain maps, like shakuras, you just make a million spines everywhere and turtle hardcore and make nothing and bank everything until you can afford a pure broodlord army all at once. This really only works on very, very specific maps where they can't just go around and kill your other bases, like shakuras if you wall off both your ramps to both your 1-2 base and 3-4 base, and less on maps like... im not sure...they only need 3 bases, and they will get mass corruptors soon enough anyways. But really, I've just gone into if you cant beat it, join them. But what's worked strongest against me is people who were even more passive, made zero roaches, lots of spines, and made an even quicker hive than me, which is just partially a mistake on my part not getting hive enough, but if you just make zero infestors you can actually do it skillfully. 2. How do I deal with 1Gate Nexus expands? The first stalker pressure is incredibly annoying, and I cannot take a third right away. Usually I make some lings, get 3 queens, drone up, and slowly tech to +1 roaches. However, I almost always die to gateway pushes at my third. Watching the replay I'm never more than 5 drones ahead, yet I still get overwhelmed, usually only getting a few roaches out before I die. I can deal with forge FE pushes perfectly fine, being able to stop gateway timings and other 2 base aggression while being able to secure a much better economy. If you opened 14/14 or 6 pool you autowin. Otherwise, you need to grab gas as soon as you realize what's up (this is why I drone scout in ZvP, I'd recommend you do it too). You simply can't grab a third against gateway expands without ling speed, including 1 gate nexus expands. If you drone scout, you can respond quick enough that you can even get gas before expansion, which is what I'd really recommend. That build is just a straight loss to 14/14, so if you scout it, react by being as close to that as possible and getting gas before expo, if you can. otherwise you will need to make a spine at your natural, two if it's wide open. MC punished Nestea for not getting gas when he did a gateway expand on Dual Sight in the GSL recently, last time they met up, so yea, you really NEED to get gas asap against gateway play or otherwise stalkers can ruin you, and if you dont get gas before expo, then you will need at least 1 spine, 2 if it's wide open. From there just grab your third once speed kicks in, and play it out like against a 1 gate sentry expand, i suppose. Here's a replay where I played against something like this recently (i think he did a 3 stalker rush into expand, i dont know, i was very distracted and had to answer the door and the guy was a real douchebag and wouldn't let me pause it, and then he QQ'd about balance when he lost, but you can see I focus down his expansion with a ton of speedlings that he forced with his 3 stalker push and I knew I could do that because he wasn't making sentries): http://drop.sc/223614 3 gate expand is similar to 1 gate expand - i think they both can do similar pressure at similar timings. Anyways probably should make third before roach warren (but still both about same time though, which is like 35-40). 3. What is the best way to prepare for marine timings attacking your third in zvt? I do the typical 2gas at 40 getting 3 queens for creep and defense. Sometimes I can get enough lings out, sometimes I can't. I'm not sure about the correct timings. I get my third hatch at 6:30 to 7:00. Also another ZvT question, what is the best time to scout? I scout after getting my 15hatch down, but I might start scouting earlier at 13 because of responding to certain builds. Sounds like a weird build. If you do the 5-6 queen build, your queens can easily handle them with pullback micro, transfuse, and a spine or rallying lings if necessary, just make sure to have vision of towers at all times (so make that pair of lings at like 30), since he won't have hellions (and you should still take towers against hellion play anyways). With an overlord sac at ~40 you should have seen he had a ton of rax. As I state in my zvt guide, linked in profile, sac an overlord at 40+. Drone scouting is becoming standard in ZvT again, although at our level we should always drone scout. You really just want to be drone scouting for cc first or not 1 rax FE play i guess. On July 18 2012 02:58 9-BiT wrote: For ling bling muta in zvp and zvt when should i expand and take my gasses/evos. I'm just kind of clueless. Maybe a build order would help. for some reason I thought he said when should i take my fourth... just play more, you'll figure out gas timings and evo timinjgs. Watch a few pro games and take note when they take it. In ZvT people get 2xGas at about 40-50 when planning to take a third before lair, then get the other 2 maybe 10 supply later, and an evo chamber around 50+. In ZvP evo is around 7:15, as should your lair, and 2x gas around 6:00 (i prefer DRG's 3xGas at 6:30, it actually leads to about 3-5 more drones than 2xgas at 6:00, and things time similarly, although your first 100 gas is a bit later, 200 gas total comes much quicker, and I think its much smoother with 3xgas at 6:30 than 2x at 6:00, but its just preference, basically some form of 2xgas at 6:00, or more gas later, or less gas earlier, ie 1 gas at 5:30 and 2nd at 7:00, whatever). | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On July 18 2012 08:33 Amaterasu1234 wrote: http://drop.sc/223546 I had the fortune of meeting a meching terran on entombed that got around 4-5 tanks and started producing thors, just like you said. I still did the drop and, like you said, it really didn't do much. (I guess I'll have to rethink this part of the strat) I think it killed a tank or two and some hellions. Nothing major. Behind the push, however, I got infestors, and when he pushed out, I threw down IT's everywhere! and attacked with roaches to mop up his thors. Then I was able to just bumrush him maxed out on roaches ftw. ---- Edit: Looking at the army/supply graph from the game, that drop attack did more harm than good...but then the power of infested terrans shines through shortly after as his supply plummets. Infested terrans are amazing against mech - I'm glad you didn't try chain fungalling his thors like so many people do. Check his thor/viking count before trying a drop like that. I only recommend dropping on his army if he is really skimping on anti-air (ie 1-2 thors, the kind of situation where you'd switch back to mutalisks if you had a spire). If he is massing tanks with almost no anti-air, I will drop on his army while attacking, but if he has a respectable thor count, no way. Instead, drop those roaches in his main and kill tech labs, armories, and depots, and if he moves too many units to defend, you can punch into his 3rd base with the rest of your roaches. | ||
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quarkral
58 Posts
Liquipedia says ground carapace is done even before lair tech, which tbh I don't find viable every game. If T opens gas, I want the fast mutas to take my third against large hellion openings. I don't want to digress into roaches, and lings are just not effective unless T does something stupid with his hellions. Obviously on maps with easily connected creep, I can use queens, but that doesn't always happen. And well once I'm teching lair, I don't really want to spend gas on ground upgrades, and then after I get muta tech, there's way too much other stuff to spend gas on, and eventually my lings just start dying too fast. So yeah... when is a good time? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I know Leenock has done it... but I really gotta say, I don't think double spire is a good idea at all. Yes, this is just really my own personal opinion, although I'm sure many others would agree (come on who else goes double spire?). But I believe double spire is bad for more than just an opinion or playstyle. Upgrades on mutas just seem a little... bleh. Upgrades on marines have a wayyyy bigger impact on muta vs marine than upgrades on the mutas. And I actually did some testing a while back, check out this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312419 But basically, upgrades are not very good on mutas at all. It's much more cost efficient for you to just get another additional muta. This holds true up to about 20+ mutas (in muta vs marine, that is)! There are arguments to be made for the following though: 1. Carapace upgrades benefit broodlords later on (and corruptors) since vikings shoot twice (though I tested this too, and actually, upgrades on carapace for broodlords vs vikings, is nice and usually results in -1 shot needed to kill, it doesnt scale well and it's not a 1/1 ratio between weapons/armor of viking/broodlord, and at some critical upgrade points, another armor upgrade actually does nothing). But, in general, +1 armor for broodlords mean +1 shot to kill from vikings. It doesn't scale perfectly 1:1, and it's a little bit tipped in favor of vikings, but it's still something (as opposed to, say, armor on lings or roaches vs thors or tanks where after you have +1 carapace or mech has +1 weapons, it doesnt give a shit whether you have 0 armor or 3 armor). 2. Attack upgrades benefit mutas in the sense that you hit critical hit numbers much quicker. There's a balance number somewhere between 15-20 mutas to 1-shot a tank and a medivac, a number that, with +1 attack, is actually more resourceful than 2 mutas, if I recall correctly. Now this doesnt really matter if you plan to go past that critical number i think of around 18, but just saying, there is that argument to justify attack upgrades. However, upgrades are not so great on mutas (or air in general) that double spire is really that great. Even broodlrods get most of their dps from melee ground attack from their broodlings than from their air attack. Obviously, if it's extreme lategame and you have the money for it, by all means, go for it. But going double spire as an actual build? Well, I think jakji vs leenock is actually a good example proving that double spire really isn't that great. It just doesn't hit some magical number that is much better than just having a single spire. But generally, if you want to get upgrades (double spire or double evo), you really can't make more than 15 mutas (15 is kind of pushing it, realyl dont want to go past 12). That's just how that sort of style is played - if you plan to make more than 15 mutas, you are going to have to sacrifice upgrades (you are really already sacrificing tech, something you have to live with if you go heavy muta, and you cant really go ultras anymore if you go heavy muta because they come too late to be useful, so you really are forced to go straight into broodlord, not necessarily a bad thing, just how it's played, which leaves an uncomfortable timing that fast third macro terrans can really hurt you if you with rine/tank with upgrades and all that jazz). So if you plan to go that old, classic style of heavy mutas, ie 15+ - and by the way, I'm not knocking it, this is actually how I play my ZvTs, I find it perfectly fine at 800 points masters -, you can really only go single evo. If you go double evo, it has to be for good reason (ie not many tanks, since double evo is great against heavy bio, it's really worthless against mech since +1 weapons then on out doesnt give a shit if you are +0 armor or +3 armor on lings roaches or banes), because it WILL delay your tech significantly, which is already significantly delayed as it is for making so many mutas. Standard muta play is no longer about getting quick mutas anymore. Zerg is more focused on economy and getting 3 bases up. There is some cute 2 base muta timings you can do, but it';s really only good against 1 rax FE/cc first into super fast third play, which is super metagamey. And hey, I go mutas every TvZ, and I make 20+ of them every game, but I'm just saying, I don't get my mutas out for a long time, and I rarely get into terran's base using them. I use my mutas more to pick apart terran's force as he pushes out, and delay his 3 base push for a long time, and rely on superior micro and control to beat a terran's 3 base rine/tank push (im sure ill one day reach a level where this won't work anymore, but I'm stil far from that level). You can check out my ZvT guide for replays of how I play, and I'll try to post one if I play a zvt tonight. It just kind of sounds you are rushing lair too quickly, and you definitely shouldnt be getting mutas to secure your third in ZvT... you should be using queens or slowlings (maybe speedlings) to secure your third. Sounds like your third is wayyy too late, your lair should not even be started, and you should have just taken your first 2 gas when taking your third. Mutas are great units, you dont need to surprise terran with them. if you want to go double spire, just check out jakji vs leenock gsl finals. he does it. I'd really recommend against double spire until extreme lategame, and for your pure broodlord army, not for your mutas. Its just such a huge investment, you could literally have hive tech done with that money instead. This is all just my opinion, so do you what you want i guess... just go into unit tester and see what you think is important in terms of upgrades for mutas. | ||
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IceFire
United States183 Posts
How do you beat and scout mass hellions in ZvT. I normally am unable to find out in time that he is doing it and normally only have lings. He easily kills them off and just kills all my drones. I;m not sure how to properly scout if he is doing it and even if I do scout it I don't know how i'm supposed to stop them. Any help? Thanks in advance. | ||
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quarkral
58 Posts
Something about massing mutalisks just seems satisfying to me, lol, although you're probably right in that it's not very efficient. But there's really no other way to be aggressive vs T in the midgame, infestor based play is just too passive, and I don't really think drops are viable much against T. Is there any way to micro mutas vs marine in this game, maybe spam click on their center of mass to clump and patrol click or something like that? As for my third timing, I typically take it very quickly before gas if I scout a gasless rax or something like that from T. on the other hand if he goes reactor hellion, I'll gas from 2 bases. if he makes more than 2 hellions, then I'll 2 base lair and rush mutas. I don't really like using lings/queens off creep to fight large hellion numbers, plus if he invests that much in hellions my mutas should do some damage. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
diamond zerg here How do you beat and scout mass hellions in ZvT. I normally am unable to find out in time that he is doing it and normally only have lings. He easily kills them off and just kills all my drones. I;m not sure how to properly scout if he is doing it and even if I do scout it I don't know how i'm supposed to stop them. Any help? Thanks in advance. Mass hellions means the minerals aren't being put into marines. Sac an overlord at ~40 (30 if he still hasn't expanded), it should be really obvious. He can't make enough marines to kill the overlords quick enough or else it will delay the hellions by a lot. Plus, you should always take the watch towers, when hellions kill it and he's on 1 base, it should be really obvious. If you don't find out until 20 hellions kill your ling at the watch tower, use hold position on the ramp with your queens, make some spines, start some wall-offs. It shouldn't be that hard. 5 spines will shut it down pretty cold if you find out that late, otherwise just get a roach warren and some roaches. Roaches shut them down very easily, but if your in a bind, speedlings, queens, and some banes mixed even, will help in a pinch. Hellions should never just end the game, you should be quick with hold position on the ramp and be aware of the map. It sounds like you don't scout well. Drone scout, always have 2 overlords by Terran's base, one by his natural to spot for an expansion (no expansion like 1 rax FE should seriously raise questions about 1 base all-in), and another by his main (this one is tricky to get on a lot of maps, but it shouldn't be hard, just make the overlord you put by the natural, take a sneaky route, even on cloud kingdom you can get there, or you can just send it straight toward terrans base right away and use a drone to patrol the bottom to make sure he isnt making a bunker out of vision). @Belial: Something about massing mutalisks just seems satisfying to me, lol, although you're probably right in that it's not very efficient. But there's really no other way to be aggressive vs T in the midgame, infestor based play is just too passive, and I don't really think drops are viable much against T. Is there any way to micro mutas vs marine in this game, maybe spam click on their center of mass to clump and patrol click or something like that? As for my third timing, I typically take it very quickly before gas if I scout a gasless rax or something like that from T. on the other hand if he goes reactor hellion, I'll gas from 2 bases. if he makes more than 2 hellions, then I'll 2 base lair and rush mutas. I don't really like using lings/queens off creep to fight large hellion numbers, plus if he invests that much in hellions my mutas should do some damage. That's fine, and I completely agree. Again, this is all opinion here, but based on what I found out in my "Upgrades on Mutas" thread (please check it out if you havent yet), is that mutas vs marines, more mutas is almost always better than upgrades - of course, you'll want an upgrade if you plan to go 15+ mutas, but the focus is on more mutas, not more upgrades (ie level 2 isn't that useful, just single spire constantly upgrading is more than enough, go for 1/1 before 2/0 or 0/2, etc). Muta play is extremely aggressive in the midgame, I don't know what you are talking about. Watch recent GSL ZvT games, no, you can't surprise Terran with the mutas and tear up his base, but what you can do against current terrans these days, is use your large 15+ mutas with a very maxed out ling/bane army, and do some serious hurt on his third, especially if he's playing a newer metagame style of less/later tanks, it's pure win. Don't overreact to hellions though. If he's going 1 rax FE reactor hellion banshee (or whatever) play, you should have speed in time, in conjunction with 6 queens + 1 spine, to deal with them. Speedlings on creep, especially with queen support, really wrecks hellions. Also, a lot of zergs like to get a roach warren after third in case of hellion play (personally, I don't like this, but much better zergs than me do this, like blade55555 who's GM). If he goes reactor hellion, what I like to do is just get gas around 23 and only make 4 queens, and a handful of lings at about 35+ (like 10) and that is enough to secure my third usually with my 4 queens pushing forward, and speed kicking in, in time to prevent him from running around them up a ramp (lings on ramps vs hellions is very strong). There's lots of other things you can do too, like go standard 6 queen play but build a spine around 30 if the opponent goes reactor hellion. reactor hellion is kind of rare these days. im not sure why, reactor hellion into fast third seems really fucking strong, i know they buffed the queen but i still cant take my third against it... not realyl sure why terrans insist on not using it and that queens are just so OP... they aren't powerful if they are off creep, and you can't exactly spread creep to your third by 50 supply. but whatever, yea, 2 base lair is what i do against reactor hellions, although ill still try to take my third and i guess sometimes it works if terran isnt paying attention or something? i dont know, i asked this same question just recently here too, all i got from it is just make up to 4 queens and then get a handful of lings after 40 to make sure he doesnt runby and just try to get your third somehow. | ||
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quarkral
58 Posts
I saw a thread about roach/hydra zvt on these forums a while ago, might give that a try. Possible transition from muta play? Since mutas will discourage tanks and allow me to get a 3rd/4th up. | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
I've being doing a stephano-like style for some time now. I make units until I know I'll break the protoss 3rd, and then start macroing and teching towards BL/infestor deathball. Lately, something has been bugging me though. When I do break the 3rd, the protoss army is usually in shambles. So I'm wondering, maybe I could just kill the protoss there and then instead? So, that kinda means that I already pretty much won the game, but that I just let him live until I have my deathball? How does the pro go about it? Do they kill the protoss 3rd, to get enough space to get their deathball up? Isnt that the entire point of the stephano attack? What am I missing? | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
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NoNonsense
Malaysia43 Posts
On July 18 2012 03:45 whatevername wrote: Do I keep my muta count lower than normal or go up to the traditional 22~ ish? Now that i open with the multiple queen build, i find that i never fail to operate on 3 bases. I am able to handle even SEA GM level Terran harass with the opening, so i think you may wanna try to learn the build. I say the above because with that opening, i have a minimum of 6 gases, and what i do is spend gas on upgrades, everything else on muta. When i spend the minerals well, i'll hit 200/200 so quickly that i can just go herp derp harass or even engage if he is out on the map, trading lings for any part of his army. Then i'll spend the freed supply on more muta or tech to infestors with the gas pouring in from my bases. My point here is that there is no 'right' amount of mutas in this case because every game goes differently. If you do plan on committing to muta tech, just build up to 200/200 according to your economy, and then u can start considering whether it's time to tech to hive with the accumulated resources. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On July 18 2012 18:35 Asolmanx wrote: What do you think about holding the immortal sentry allin with burrowed banelings? If you make an overseer in your main, you should be able to intercept the observer that should be checking if you went spire, also in a lot of cases they may just skip the observer or have it somewhere else on the map. The burrow upgrade only costs 100/100, and in the worst case scenario you could send an overseer over his army (which only has senties as AA) to check if the has a obs with him. At that point, if he doesn't have an obs you morph banelings, if he does you go for the base trade, of maybe grab all your queens and try to snipe it: after all they have 7 range No, burrowed banelings aren't effective at all against this type of build. All he has to do is get a third and he is ahead. He doesn't need to attack you if you went for banelings and delayed drop. Ofcourse you will meet a few numbnuts that just walk over the baneling minefield and lose all their sentries randomly, but most tosses that just have an observer with the army won't even find any difficulty in dealing with burrowed banelings. Generally you can get baneling drops right after lair IF you scout a robo and 4 gasses. It is my favourite way of dealing with the Immo-sentry all in. Just get quicker gas than the stephano style ( I tend to get it around 19 supply, right before my third hatch ) and decide if you need lingspeed or lair first. You can take a later second gas this way to focus more on droning. The timings are pretty rough to hit, but generally if you get the baneling drops up and have a large roach force to mop up, you will have a pretty good chance of destroying his army and just plowing through to his third to take it out. Banelings burrowed are a complete gimmick in ZvP, and I would only use them burrowed in mineral lines of future expansions of the protoss. | ||
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