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Some interesting test results of Muta vs Marines/Mutas/Stalkers, to see the importance of upgrades. I basically just used Unit Tester Online, and had the system attack. With stim, I stimmed right before engaging, to ensure stim during the entire engagement. I did not attempt any micro or repositioning.
Some results were interesting, TLDR at bottom. I always made sure mutalisks won the fight, and I specifically used certain numbers of muta vs Unit to best exaggerate the differences in upgrade vs upgrade vs additional muta. X-Y-Z refers to the results of 3 test events, and the number in parenthesis is a quick average so you can quickly compare one test to another.
ZvT
15 vs 15 Stim, Combat Shield
0/0 vs 0/0 = 9-10-11 (~10)
1/0 = 10 - 11 - 10 (~10)
0/1 = 11 - 11 - 11 (11)
1 Additional Mutalisk = 11 - 11 - 12 (~11, almost 12).
So this shows that at first, it's best to get an additional mutalisk.
But what about higher numbers?
20 vs 20 Stim, Combat
0/0 vs 0/0 = 13-14-15 (~14)
1/0 = 14-13-14 (~14)
0/1 = 16/14/14 (~14)
1 Additional Mutalisk = 16-14-17 (~16)
So it it still shows that 1 more mutalisk is better than an upgrade!
Maybe 30 mutas?
30 vs 30
0/0 vs 0/0 = 18-20-18 (~19)
1/0 = 19-20-19 (~19)
0/1 = 22-23-21 (~22)
1 Additional Mutalisk = 19-20-22 (~21)
So when you hit 30 mutas, THAT'S when you get an upgrade lol!
So the lesson here? Get mutas instead of upgrades. Once about 20 mutas, start +1 carapace (meaning don't start your upgrade when spire pops, but after making the mutas).
So what about further on, in terms of upgrades, after you got +1 carapace. Should you go for +2 carapace, or +1 weapons?
30 vs 30
0/1 vs 0/0 = 22-23-21(~22)
0/2 vs 0/0 = 24-23-24 (~23)
1/1 vs 0/0 = 23/23/23 (~23, but less so).
It seems like 0/2 is better, but insignificantly so (as in statistically insignificant).
Given the 300/300 cost of +3 armor though, i think it's better to go for +2 weapons instead of +3 armor. Don't need to test to see that as obvious!
But what about medivacs?
30 mutas vs 30 marines + 6 medivacs
0/0 vs 0/0 = 10-14-12 (~12)
1/0 = 14-17-14 (~15)
0/1 = 14-17-17 (~16)
1 Additional Muta = 18-16-15 (~16)
Seems like it's borderline between carapace and another additional muta, but carapace still being better, showing similar results with no medivacs (and medivacs make results vary much more).
So what about the other match-ups?
ZvZ
We already know carapace is better, but maybe more mutas is more important?
20 Mutas vs 20 Mutas
0/1 vs 0/0 = 11-8-10 (~10)
1 Additional Muta = 8-8-8 (8)
Surprising how onesided just one additional muta can make, but it shows that +1 carapace is very important in muta vs muta, whereas upgrades aren't as important in ZvT. Also, just a quick test, but 2/2 beats 0/3 mutas, and 2/2 loses to 1/3 mutas.
ZvP
20 Mutas vs 15 Stalkers (no blink)
0/0 vs 0/0 = 11-11-12 (~11)
1/0 vs 0/0 = 12-13-13 (~13)
0/1 vs 0/0 = 13-12-12 (~12)
1 Additional Mutalisk = 13-13-13 (13)
It seems like 1 additional mutalisk is preferable, but not by much, and that actually attack is better than carapace, which seems to be against the trend. But to give it more thorough testing:
30 mutas vs 25 stalkers (no blink)
0/0 vs 0/0 = 11/12/12 (~12)
1/0 = 17-15-16 (~16)
0/1 = 16-16-16 (16)
1 Addtional Mutalisk = 16-16-15 (~16)
Also, on a side note, never focus fire with mutalisks. The muta has too short of a range that you lose DPS due to repositioning, and even conservative focus fire (just making sure to focus fire things in range so much don't move) doesn't work.
TLDR:
ZvT: Upgrades are extremely unimportant, and extra mutalisks is always better than upgrades. Only when approaching ~30 mutalisks, should you get upgrades, and in this case, carapace is better than attack. If your macro is good, you should avoid getting upgrades. If your macro is poor, then go for carapace. Either way, do not get upgrades when spire pops, you should very much delay on upgrades.
Go for 30 mutalisks, then 0/2, then 1/2, then 2/2. This isn't factoring in the extra cost of upgrades, which only make the argument for balancing your upgrades rather than racing to 3/0 or 0/3 stronger. (So start upgrade at 25 mutalisks, if you plan to keep making them, or, if you plan not to lose them but don't want to make any more, ie your teching to BL).
In short, 30 mutas, 0/2, 1/2, 2/2, 2/3.
ZvZ: Carapace is actually pretty important, and you want 0/2 asap. Also, you might want to hold off on +3 carapace in favor of more mutalisks and going for the attack upgrades (this is based solely on relative costs, of course 3 carapace is very beastly).
You should always be upgrading at the spire in Muta vs Muta, for 0/2, then catching back up on weapons.
In short, 0/2, 1/2, 1/3.
ZvP: Upgrades are semi-important. You'll want +1 attack, but it's not much better than +1 carapace or an additional mutalisk if you have a reason for it (maybe you want armor to deal with critical number of shots from other Toss units, or attack for more harass). You may want to hold off on getting +2 or higher in favor of more mutalisks, and you might want to balance upgrades due to cost being a very important factory here.
In short, 1/0, More Mutalisks.
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Now obviously if your macro slips, or the supply cap is an issue, go for upgrades. But, now you know which upgrade is better in each match-up. I was surprised by the results.
Also, given how unfavorably attack stacks against just an extra most of the time, you might want to reconsider the whole "but I get attack because I never engage and want to kill buildings". Against Toss, attack is better anyways, but extra mutas dish out extra damage against buildings too. Against Terran, yes, attack is worse, but you want to be going for more mutas anyways. In ZvZ, going for attack instead of carapace can lose you the game, so I wouldn't recommend going for attack 'just to harass' unless the opponent was going with a roach based play (in which case I'd recommend attack, actually).
Here's a few random tips about mutas:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. In ZvZ, it's useful to have lings underneath your mutas in muta vs muta battles. While attacks of any unit always have a priority (that's why buildings and mining workers aren't attacked when enemy units are around), glaive wurm bounce is pretty random and goes towards any unit, even mining workers (overlords seem to be disliked, but will get hit, although less than any other unit or worker). So add some lings to your control group of mutas. In a muta vs muta battle, some of the enemy bounce will go to the lings, and you can come out way ahead in a battle doing this tactic.
2. In ZvZ, muta vs muta is wildly unpredictable. Any attempt at micro will always make you worse off, so just a-move. Don't ball up your mutas before, don't try to spread your mutas before the engagement, just a-move. This is generally why once both players have about 20+ mutas the game goes towards infestors, but a +1 muta advantage can lead to 8 mutas for that side at the end of a total battle. Be careful, just a-move.
3. And not micro'ing goes for anything, actually. Marines, stalkers, don't micro your mutas. Besides sniping warping in targets or tanks, in an actual fight with units that can hit your mutas, don't focus fire, don't micro. A single muta repositioning itself is disastrous, and for some reason, any sort of micro always hurts more than helps. Exceptions exist for sniping medivacs real quick then leaving, blinking stalkers, or sniping stray marines or units, obviously.
4. I didn't include mech because in a real game, thor shots work out that your armor upgrades really don't matter. There's a few critical hit zones, but generally Thors will 3 shot your mutas (3 shot right?), especially since it's unlikely you'll have 0/3 mutas vs 0/0 thors. Attack is okay.
That's all. If anyone has more thorough or better testing, or anything else interesting to add, go for it.
Edit: I'd like to add that carapace can also mean you can harass longer, where with attack you would normally have to leave prematurely. These tests don't say everything, but should definitely influence your play (ie for example, now you know in ZvT you should not start upgrades when spire starts, but rather after getting the mutas).
Finally, these numbers do not factor in bad macro, supply cap, or corruptors or broodlords, all of which can influence you to upgrade earlier or upgrade differently than the results shown here.
Edit 2: A few random tests I've done due to responses in this thread:
1 Muta vs 3 SCVs, bounce damage test:
+ Show Spoiler +
Attack Upgrade Level = Main Hit/Bounce1/Bounce2
0 = -9/-3/-1
1 = -10/-4/-2
2 = -11/-4/-2
3 = -12/-4/-2
How many volleys for 1 mutalisk, with X upgrade, to kill 4 SCVs.
+ Show Spoiler +
Should you focus Medivacs with Mutas?
+ Show Spoiler +
0/0 vs 0/0, no stim, no combat shield
8 Mutas vs 8 marines + Medivac = 6-6-7 (~6)
8 Mutas vs 8 Marines + Medivac, Focusing Medivac = 5-4-5 (~5)
What is the best choice to make if you want to use your mutas to snipe, or
What choice will result in the most Mutas at the end, if I want to snipe a tank covered by 15 marines?
+ Show Spoiler +
15 Mutas vs 15 Marines + 1 tank.
I set the tank on a specific spot, the mutas somewhere, and the marines somewhere. I have the mutas snipe the tank, and run back, and I have the marines stim forward. The set up is so that the tank is in between the marines and tank, on the "Arena" terrain of Unit Tester Online. I am testing to see which choice of attack, armor, and 1 more muta, snipes the tank with the most mutas left over.
15 0/0 Mutas vs 1/1 15 Marines with Stim/Shield
... = 11-12-12 (~12)
1/0 Mutas = 13-13-12 (~13)
0/1 Mutas = 12-13-13 (~13)
1 Additional Muta = 14-13-14 (~14)
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Very interesting thread, thanks for the knowledge and testing!
Im actually surprised about the ZvT results, I wouldn't have thought upgrades were so irrelevant.
I'd also like to see if pros can micro in such a way that they make mutas more effective. Not to insult your micro, but, you know, you aren't Leenock or IdrA.
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Cool... except Mutas in general aren't really supposed to fight marines directly.
You're not getting upgrades so that you can kill more marines/stalkers better, you're getting upgrades so that you can do more burst damage. This would include sniping buildings (like Turrets), workers, and tanks especially.
Also, when it comes to 0/0 mutas against 3/3 marines... it's practically not even worth engaging a dropful even with like 10 mutas. You have to keep your upgrades going so that you can not just get raped later in the game.
It's interesting to know where stalker vs muta or marine vs muta things help, but you need to consider more than straight up fights.
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On February 16 2012 12:58 spacebob42 wrote:
Very interesting thread, thanks for the knowledge and testing!
Im actually surprised about the ZvT results, I wouldn't have thought upgrades were so irrelevant.
I'd also like to see if pros can micro in such a way that they make mutas more effective. Not to insult your micro, but, you know, you aren't Leenock or IdrA.
I'm not playing a battle here or anything. I have the game issue the attack command, and just once or twice in the battle, do something like focus fire a unit within range of all selected mutas, or ball up my mutas before a muta vs muta engagement. In multiple tests, it showed that the results were worse than just a-move.
So yea, it's kind of insulting what you say. No shit I'm not leenock or idra, but it doesn't take a pro to say, blink micro in a controlled environment. And that's not even what it's about.
I guess to correct myself though, the only relevant micro would be pulling back a red muta real quickly. That is actually helpful, sometimes (not in muta vs muta though).
Cool... except Mutas in general aren't really supposed to fight marines directly.
You're not getting upgrades so that you can kill more marines/stalkers better, you're getting upgrades so that you can do more burst damage. This would include sniping buildings (like Turrets), workers, and tanks especially.
Also, when it comes to 0/0 mutas against 3/3 marines... it's practically not even worth engaging a dropful even with like 10 mutas. You have to keep your upgrades going so that you can not just get raped later in the game.
It's interesting to know where stalker vs muta or marine vs muta things help, but you need to consider more than straight up fights.
I agree, but the results also showed that getting more mutas is better than upgrades, which helps with burst damage as well. Yes, 0/0 mutas get raped by 3/3 marines, but an 1 more muta > +1 carapace +1 attack against 3/3 marines.
20 vs 15 marines, stim, combat shield
0/0 vs 3/3 = 7-8
1/0 = 10-10
0/1 = 9-10
1 Additional Muta = 12-11
You know, you could say "Hey, i wonder how 3/3 marines would fare" or "Did you try with 3/3?" What you are saying is kind of presumptuous. Even against 3/3, it's still better to have an additional muta.
Anyways, if you watch DRG, or many pros, they often will engage marines. In ZvP, it's very much about trying to kill off the stalkers as much as possible. I understand your point, but I disagree. You are engaging AA units very often with your mutas. Ideally, in scenarios where you will win overwhelmingly, and you run from situations where the fight is even, but even when sniping things, you will get shot at, or shoot at, arriving units. Also, a lot of the data seems to support the whole "What about the idea that you will never engage", like getting more mutas as opposed to attack. And in ZvZ, you are definitely engaging with your mutas.
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Does the OP understand that in a 30 muta vs 30 marine fight the angle of attack and micro during fight (flying over, or over-firing vs single marines) will affect the outcome in a big way.
Having the mutas spread in a circle hitting a pack of marines in the center would be way different from a ball vs ball.
Even a concave of mutas vs a ball of marines would fair better because less mutas would over-fire against marines and fewer mutas would die instantly (damage spread among them).
Cant just say 30 mutas vs 30 marines, cuz that fight could go way differently especially when your outcomes are 23 mutas vs 24 as the reason to get an upgrade or not.
Edit: a picture or video would help ^^
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^ Yes. I used a unit tester, which basically a-moves them toward eachother. The units are non stacked, in a group, at the start. As long as each test is uniform, it doesn't matter.
And actually, having the mutas in a ball is worse, than having them spread. Basically, any sort of micro or pre-positioning is detrimental for the mutas. Yes, it flies against common sense. And concaves aren't something mutas need. They are air units.
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Your spoiler tags are broken. It's [ spoiler ] not [ spoilers ], you can use the grey [s] button to insert those tags.
Other than that interesting thread, thanks for sharing 
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If you get upgrades earlier on (rather than after 30 mutas as you say), it will apply earlier to your current mutas as well as all other mutas you will make throughout the game. You're going to get air upgrades eventually because unupgraded mutas vs upgraded marines is suicide. So, I don't this is the correct way to determine if upgrades are worth getting or not (compared to getting X extra mutas).
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^ For ZvT, what I'm basically saying is don't get any upgrades until the point when, having started it, it would finish when you have ~30 mutas.
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the point of attack in ZvT for mutas is to make them better at picking off tanks/scvs/structures, not to directly engage marines.
i think double spire builds are the best way to upgrade your mutas if you intend to use them in direct engagments
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^ I addressed that already. That's why the conclusion is "get more mutas instead of upgrades" is not contradictory with the philosophy that you should never engage with your mutas.
And, if you watch the muta player in the world, DRG, he is extremely aggressive with his mutas. I think that's how he became the best so quickly, he was the first to really use his mutas so aggressively, to punish greedy terrans or terrans out of position, something terrans never expected from pro zergs.
And even then, your mutas will still get shot at by marines when they are sniping turrets. They have to deal with drops.
I'm just telling you what the best options are. I would much rather survive many more shots so I can stay around longer with my mutas, or have more mutas to soak damage, than get attack upgrade on more fragile mutas.
As for double spire, no. The results here clearly show that double spire is a HUGE waste in ZvT.
The only match-up double spire would be useful in is ZvZ, but even then, you are so gas starved, and you want to move past muta vs muat into infestor vs infestor, that it's not practical, and the cost of 100/100+200/200 for getting +1 attack quicker and simultaneously is not worth it. Besides, 0/2 and more mutas is better than less mutas and 1/1.
Double spire, in short, is a bad idea, anytime before being maxed.
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Hrm, once you factor in thors it becomes much more difficult to justfy number of upgrades though.
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^Well like I said in the post...
Thors have an issue where upgrades basically don't matter. They kill mutas in I believe 3 hits, and unless you have 3 armor mutas to 1 weapons thors, in a realistic game (particularly against mech which gets armory on 2 base and has very good reason to upgrade), upgrades are meaningless. They have a lot of armor too, so while attack upgrades on low damage units vs high health/armor units is always okay, it's not better then getting more mutas. My point is, is even including medivacs or thors, the upgrade priority is still the same - more mutas > upgrades in ZvT. Against mech, upgrades are even less useful, in general, due to the high damage weapons they use.
So yea, in ZvT, thors or not, you want to get more mutas instead of upgrades, if your macro is good. If it slips and you are fighting mech, then you may want to go with weapons, but against mech you generally want to max out on 0/0 roaches or maybe 1/0 roaches and then tech extremely quick into infestors and then broodlords (then get upgrades).
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i've been getting 0/2 for mutas in every MU for a long time now after i realised that it somehow helps staying alive..
this is very interesting from now on i'll go for the extra muta instead of 0/1 especially in zvt, as that is my main MU for getting mutas
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You're not factoring in Terran upgrades, which would lead to more deviations in the situation.
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I can think of a few reasons why you might want upgrades over one extra muta, but many of them boil down to making up for being terrible. The don't micro thing is very interesting though, thanks.
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people don't upgrade their air damaage so that mutas do more damage, they do it so that BLs do more damage late game
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On February 16 2012 14:11 Belial88 wrote:
Double spire, in short, is a bad idea, anytime before being maxed.
Care to show this revolutionary find with Dimaga?
And despite you quickly adressing it I still want to point out that ZvT, your mutas arent used to fight marines.
So many people get attack upgrades because you want to do as much damage in the opponents base as possible (turrets, depots, scvs, add-ons), and get out once marines show up.
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Hmmm... I always get +1 attack the second my spire finishes. The logic is that I want to do more damage so that I can do the damage i need and get the mutas OUT before I have to engage things directly. then comes a quick +2 and I'll sometimes even get a second spire while my hive is building, so I can go for +3 +1 broodlords late game. I like to rely on control to avoid losing mutas (doesnt always work :-) ) I just think that getting upgrades early is important for having a good late game.
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As day9 said.. This is one the problems with sc2.. It's better to A-move then to micro mutas. I played BW and I still add an ovy to my control group of mutas lol, and I still feel like microing them when I know it's not favorable. Really nice write up though, taking notes on the upgrade portion of this for sure.
Thanks for the info.
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EPT
