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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On July 16 2012 22:48 InfCereal wrote:
I was wondering if it was at all possible to create a style of play that never engaged the opponent directly?
We have all these units that can infiltrate and cause damage, I feel like you could win simply by relying on baneling mines, infestor drops, utilizing roach burrow, maybe mutas.
Has anyone ever tried this? Is it possible?
Muta/ling ZvP often works out like that. Avoid big engagements and the Protoss commits to an attack, go for the base race.
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On July 16 2012 22:24 Zrana wrote:
Every so often i toy with the idea of building a hydra den if i think an all-in is coming, is that viable at a high level against those robo timings? Or do you get screwed by the collo transition?
Warning : Personnal opinions comming
Hydras are not meant to be the core unit of any build save roach/hydras/infestors in ZvZ. In ZvP i think putting down an hydra den to defend an all-in is a so-so idea since the collo follow up will make sure those hydras are wasted ressources. The only possible use i could see is if you get OV speed and drop tech and follow up the defence with a doom drop of hydras/lings in the main/nat to snipe the building / tech before he is able to resupply with collosus but i never tried this myself. On paper you might have a slight window of opportunity but i'd have to make a couple of test runs to know or sure if this can work out.
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http://drop.sc/223062
The above replay is a zvt featuring op mech. After days of practicing vs it, I think I may finally have a game plan, but, I need some input to its effectiveness from other players that may have tried something similar.
In essence, my newfound game plan vs mech, no matter the composition is a 3 base roach timing. If I scout hellion/tank/thor, I get drop tech and will include banelings as tanks actually help the push along with their friendly fire. If, however, I scout hellion/thor/banshee, the composition that was giving me the most problems lately, I do as much damage as I can with what I have, then I regroup, get infestor/roach and do another push after baiting them into a favorable position. The key to the engagement are the infested terrans as they do a crap ton of damage and tank more while your roaches go to work, as you'll see in the replay. If the T emphasizes banshees, add in a few overseers and corrupters.
That's my game plan that has been working vs CalmMind who I practice with regularly. On ladder, I mostly see tanks included in mech, and thus, usually win. The few times I see pure thor/hellion/banshee, I've always lost.
So, I'm just looking for some collaboration here as to its effectiveness and related theory-crafting but, from what I can tell, it seems pretty strong and a valid way of going about defeating mech.
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On July 17 2012 09:18 Amaterasu1234 wrote:http://drop.sc/223062The above replay is a zvt featuring op mech. After days of practicing vs it, I think I may finally have a game plan, but, I need some input to its effectiveness from other players that may have tried something similar. In essence, my newfound game plan vs mech, no matter the composition is a 3 base roach timing. If I scout hellion/tank/thor, I get drop tech and will include banelings as tanks actually help the push along with their friendly fire. If, however, I scout hellion/thor/banshee, the composition that was giving me the most problems lately, I do as much damage as I can with what I have, then I regroup, get infestor/roach and do another push after baiting them into a favorable position. The key to the engagement are the infested terrans as they do a crap ton of damage and tank more while your roaches go to work, as you'll see in the replay. If the T emphasizes banshees, add in a few overseers and corrupters. That's my game plan that has been working vs CalmMind who I practice with regularly. On ladder, I mostly see tanks included in mech, and thus, usually win. The few times I see pure thor/hellion/banshee, I've always lost. So, I'm just looking for some collaboration here as to its effectiveness and related theory-crafting but, from what I can tell, it seems pretty strong and a valid way of going about defeating mech.
Usually when I see mech the Terran will get quite a few more Tanks than cAlmMind did in that game (maybe 4 or 5, getting one thor in between) before starting the mass thor production. It just seems to me like that attack wouldn't really do much if a few more Tanks were involved rather than Thors. Also, it seems pretty situational map-to-map (i.e. I really can't see that attack working on Entombed). You seem to have experience doing this, though, so I'd like to hear how it works out on different maps and vs. more tanks.
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On July 16 2012 15:12 Belial88 wrote:
But when it's in masters+, it's ridiculously hard to handle, especially if you didn't go super fast mutas (which is what i always do vs robo play, but sometimes you can't really do that because you made a ton of roaches, like if toss opened 4 gate +1 or you just couldnt get a solid scout off). I guess the lesson is just if Toss doesn't push out by 10:00, grab your 5th and 6th gases and get some sort of tech going. I guess if they push like at 10:01, then just mass spines at your natural and go for the base trade with a much bigger army.
I think 10:00 is a tad early. I think you should go up to 5 gas at 10:30 and get infestors out. Around this time also scout to see if they are hitting a collosus timing or just a heavy immortal one. I would take a 4th and spine up the 3rd, nat, and main but leave the 4th uncovered. You can defend 2 base collosus pushes without corrupters, since they usually only hit with 2.
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If I send in an Overlord to scout and see one refinery, what should I be expect from the Terran player? What about two refineries?
I see less people going Muta/Ling/Bane in ZvT anymore. Why is this the case?
If the enemy goes for a hellion expand, when should I take a third? What is the minimal amount of defense I should create to prevent any dead drones?
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On July 16 2012 14:42 Actinium_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 13:32 Drmooose wrote:
I know a lot of people have asked this but what is everyone's current go to strat vs each race at a high level? (Top 8 Masters atm but MMR is still between that and mid masters at the moment.)
I still stick with mostly outdate styles. (14/14 zvz into speedling bane for the longest time, mutas in ZvT, and normal ZvP stuff.) I'm just curious if I should really be dedicating my time to say infestor, ling or just try to fix my current style.
Obviously, pros switch because that style is seemingly better, but is it really worth forcing myself to learn? (I guess it is because I do want to get better, but how long has it taken some of you other players) I'm around a similar level. 14/14 is still perfectly valid opening even though most people tend to go hatch first. You just need to abuse the lack of scouting and map presence they have and you should come out of the early game even or ahead. In terms of mid game i go Ling infestor which is quite strong at the moment and if you can successfully defend your third against any all in then you will be in a great position to destroy them when your ultras come out. I believe it is way better than going roaches because of the counters and map presence you have with upgraded lings. Be warned though, you will lose a lot of games at first because it takes quite a while to learn all the defensive timings. ZvT i go no gas queen expo (@ around 6mins) into ling(bling) infestor and into quick hive (choose broods or ultras depending on unit comp of T, basically how many tanks theyre making). This style is quite easy to be honest. Mutas is actually a much harder style to master because of the multitasking it forces you to do in controlling mutas for harass and whatever else.
The only reason I still 14/14 is because I hate losing to 10 pool drone pull shit. Its a free win if I 14/14 and it happens a lot. (Whenever I go hatch first I seem to run into this...) So I go 14/'14 but feel behind. I just havent been able to develop a solid defense going hatch first. Yeah I'd like to switch over to that as my multitasking harass seems to be better than my opposition usually. (Its the defensive/droning that gets me bad usually.)
Yeah its something that I'll have to play with. I enjoy muta much more since I use infestors so much in the other match ups. Idlk.
ZvZ is the match up I'd like to fix the most I guess. If its ling/bane I can win most of the games but if it goes past that, unless roach infestor only I lose...
Thanks!@
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On July 17 2012 11:44 vizi wrote:
If I send in an Overlord to scout and see one refinery, what should I be expect from the Terran player? What about two refineries?
I see less people going Muta/Ling/Bane in ZvT anymore. Why is this the case?
If the enemy goes for a hellion expand, when should I take a third? What is the minimal amount of defense I should create to prevent any dead drones?
If they're getting gas before expanding, the current meta shows that you should get extra queens (6 is seeming to be the magic number, although feel free to get more depending on how long he 1bases for). They'll protect you against Hellion and Banshee all-ins. If you see 2 gas get an Evo chamber, just in case he goes cloaked banshee.
People don't go Muta/Ling as much anymore because they found out how to use Infestors and had an easier time winning with them.
If they go for a Hellion expand, try to expand around 5 minutes and get a couple of extra Queens and a Spine. Of course, you have to scout him to see if he could be doing an all-in attack and defend accordingly. The Spine/Queens are good enough for standard Hellion expand, though, if you have decent micro.
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If I go muta/ling/bane vs a pure bio terran do I only make like 10-15 mutas to control drops then focus rest on upgrades w lingbane? A clan mate of mine suggested this, but a flock of mutas sounds really effective to me, on paper at least, against pure bio. Yet when I actually experienced it and produced a normal amount of mutas, I simply couldnt keep up on upgrades.
And with that composition, how exactly do I keep the medivac count down?On July 17 2012 13:40 Drmooose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 14:42 Actinium_ wrote:On July 16 2012 13:32 Drmooose wrote:
I know a lot of people have asked this but what is everyone's current go to strat vs each race at a high level? (Top 8 Masters atm but MMR is still between that and mid masters at the moment.)
I still stick with mostly outdate styles. (14/14 zvz into speedling bane for the longest time, mutas in ZvT, and normal ZvP stuff.) I'm just curious if I should really be dedicating my time to say infestor, ling or just try to fix my current style.
Obviously, pros switch because that style is seemingly better, but is it really worth forcing myself to learn? (I guess it is because I do want to get better, but how long has it taken some of you other players) I'm around a similar level. 14/14 is still perfectly valid opening even though most people tend to go hatch first. You just need to abuse the lack of scouting and map presence they have and you should come out of the early game even or ahead. In terms of mid game i go Ling infestor which is quite strong at the moment and if you can successfully defend your third against any all in then you will be in a great position to destroy them when your ultras come out. I believe it is way better than going roaches because of the counters and map presence you have with upgraded lings. Be warned though, you will lose a lot of games at first because it takes quite a while to learn all the defensive timings. ZvT i go no gas queen expo (@ around 6mins) into ling(bling) infestor and into quick hive (choose broods or ultras depending on unit comp of T, basically how many tanks theyre making). This style is quite easy to be honest. Mutas is actually a much harder style to master because of the multitasking it forces you to do in controlling mutas for harass and whatever else. The only reason I still 14/14 is because I hate losing to 10 pool drone pull shit. Its a free win if I 14/14 and it happens a lot. (Whenever I go hatch first I seem to run into this...) So I go 14/'14 but feel behind. I just havent been able to develop a solid defense going hatch first. Yeah I'd like to switch over to that as my multitasking harass seems to be better than my opposition usually. (Its the defensive/droning that gets me bad usually.) Yeah its something that I'll have to play with. I enjoy muta much more since I use infestors so much in the other match ups. Idlk. ZvZ is the match up I'd like to fix the most I guess. If its ling/bane I can win most of the games but if it goes past that, unless roach infestor only I lose... Thanks!@ Why dont you just go 15pool? It defends 10 pool drone pull easily enough and is more economical than 14/14.
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I've seen and heard a lot about the ling/infestor/ultra style in zvz, and I'm wondering if somebody can provide me with the optimal build order.
I like to 15h/15p/15g, drone up/defend a 1-2 base ling/bane all in. From there, what are the gas timings/when should lair be and upgrades and third. I've heard you should use lots of spines, but just how many? When should you drop infestation pit, how many infestors should you get? When should hive be?
Also, how should you react to things like roach/ling all ins or muta play and stuff like that.
I'm just sick of playing roach/hydra/infestor, and it feels like ling/infestor/ultra is stronger in the late game.
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On July 17 2012 15:50 whatevername wrote:
If I go muta/ling/bane vs a pure bio terran do I only make like 10-15 mutas to control drops then focus rest on upgrades w lingbane? A clan mate of mine suggested this, but a flock of mutas sounds really effective to me, on paper at least, against pure bio. Yet when I actually experienced it and produced a normal amount of mutas, I simply couldnt keep up on upgrades.
And with that composition, how exactly do I keep the medivac count down?
Why couldn't you keep up on upgrades? Just prioritize both ground upgrades over everything. Your muta count should be used to prevent drops and clean up the medivacs after every battle. I find that against pure bio muta is excellent. You have ling/bane to clean up the army(without tank banes are so much more powerful) and muta to keep medivac count low.
Depending on the situation, sometimes i will engage the battle with my ling/bane while my muta are shift clicked on medivacs. Mutas don't do that much damage anyway.
So engagement goes like this.
Ling surround/flank and attack move at the right position
Bling right click at the marines running away/splitting
Muta shift click on medivacs.
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On July 17 2012 19:00 trevaur wrote:
I've seen and heard a lot about the ling/infestor/ultra style in zvz, and I'm wondering if somebody can provide me with the optimal build order.
I like to 15h/15p/15g, drone up/defend a 1-2 base ling/bane all in. From there, what are the gas timings/when should lair be and upgrades and third. I've heard you should use lots of spines, but just how many? When should you drop infestation pit, how many infestors should you get? When should hive be?
Also, how should you react to things like roach/ling all ins or muta play and stuff like that.
I'm just sick of playing roach/hydra/infestor, and it feels like ling/infestor/ultra is stronger in the late game.
Check out this guide by Blade55555:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344989
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Ok enough with all these strategy questions, I have a mechanics question. What are you guys using your map hot keys for? I have my queens individually hotkeyd so I dont need map hot keys set to my bases. I do the thing that stephano does to add the units to my hot keys right as soon as I make them in their egg form so I don't need a map hotkey for my rally point. Maybe one on my upgrades but they are usually so close to my queens that I just use my queen hotkey to go to them. I'm an ex masters Protoss so I can use my map hotkeys, I just can't figure out what I should use them for as zerg now that I am playing zerg.
To be a little more specific I have control groups 7,8, and 9 rebound to Q, W, and E and that is where I put my first 3 queens (Q = main, W = nat, E = 3rd). I also have control group 0 rebound to ` which I usually use for an important over lord or something random like that (4th queen if really really late game). Build extractor and queen are moved to t along with metabolic boost and melee attack upgrade. A few other micro things are moved over too like neural parasite moved over to v and a couple other unimportant changes. Control group 4 is always creep spredding/extra queens, then 1-3 are units and change depending on what style I'm playing that game.
Any mechanics tips are welcome and any changes you think I should make to my hotkey set up are welcome and I will consider them.
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Hey fellow cerebrates,
my main problem at the moment are the early game gas timings.
I.e. when to take how many geysirs depending on what i scout?
In ZvZ its pretty easy, i stay on 1gas during ling / bane wars phase, go to 3 gas when roach production starts, add more gas when higher tech starts.
But in ZvP and ZvT, i have no clue. How do you figure out, when you take how many geysirs and what is the desicion making process behind it?
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On July 17 2012 23:30 reapsen wrote:
Hey fellow cerebrates,
my main problem at the moment are the early game gas timings.
I.e. when to take how many geysirs depending on what i scout?
In ZvZ its pretty easy, i stay on 1gas during ling / bane wars phase, go to 3 gas when roach production starts, add more gas when higher tech starts.
But in ZvP and ZvT, i have no clue. How do you figure out, when you take how many geysirs and what is the desicion making process behind it?
Need more information. What builds are you doing zvp and zvt?
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At what time does a protoss typically have 2 colossi or the range upgrade?
I'm trying a linghydra nydus build in zvp and with the standard 3 base opener I can get maxed on hydra ling at 12:50(first try) with +1 ranged attack and hydra range.
I use the nydus to either try for a nydus in his base which is an easy win if he doesn;t ahev range or 2 colossi. or to create shortcut right to their wall.
what typical colossi timing should I look out for with this approach?
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On July 17 2012 23:35 MstrJinbo wrote:
Need more information. What builds are you doing zvp and zvt?
I try to do ling heavy builds in both matchups. Only build the aboslute minimum amount of roaches that are needed (e.g. for pushing hellions away), because i think roaches are pretty shitty units in general.
So i'll try to survive with ling/bane only in the early game and then work on building the ling/infestor/broodlord comp, which hopefully wins the game. Situationally mix in drop play or burrowed banemines.
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On July 17 2012 23:50 GuardianEU wrote:
At what time does a protoss typically have 2 colossi or the range upgrade?
I'm trying a linghydra nydus build in zvp and with the standard 3 base opener I can get maxed on hydra ling at 12:50(first try) with +1 ranged attack and hydra range.
I use the nydus to either try for a nydus in his base which is an easy win if he doesn;t ahev range or 2 colossi. or to create shortcut right to their wall.
what typical colossi timing should I look out for with this approach?
Depends on how late the robo was, but if it's fairly early, Toss can definitely scout what you're doing with an obs and have 2+ colossi out with range when your nydus hits. 13 minutes is too much time.
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Base racing a Protoss because you can't engage his army without getting rolled seems like a bad idea. Any Protoss worth anything will bring a probe with them to make a proxy pylon or two. So you may destroy his main/natural/third first before he gets yours, but then you need to get through his army to kill his final pylons. And the whole point of the base race was that you can't get through his army.
What am I missing here?
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On July 18 2012 00:34 Falcon-sw wrote:
Base racing a Protoss because you can't engage his army without getting rolled seems like a bad idea. Any Protoss worth anything will bring a probe with them to make a proxy pylon or two. So you may destroy his main/natural/third first before he gets yours, but then you need to get through his army to kill his final pylons. And the whole point of the base race was that you can't get through his army.
What am I missing here?
If the Zerg expanded on the opposite corner of the map, the Protoss will have a difficult time defending the last pylon or nexus and killing the remaining Zerg bases. Either the Protoss needs to huddle around its last nexus and rebuild the base or split its army up. Either way the Zerg army has an advantage.
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EPT
