The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 323

On July 18 2012 19:03 Chaosvuistje wrote:


No, burrowed banelings aren't effective at all against this type of build. All he has to do is get a third and he is ahead. He doesn't need to attack you if you went for banelings and delayed drop. Ofcourse you will meet a few numbnuts that just walk over the baneling minefield and lose all their sentries randomly, but most tosses that just have an observer with the army won't even find any difficulty in dealing with burrowed banelings.

Generally you can get baneling drops right after lair IF you scout a robo and 4 gasses. It is my favourite way of dealing with the Immo-sentry all in. Just get quicker gas than the stephano style ( I tend to get it around 19 supply, right before my third hatch ) and decide if you need lingspeed or lair first. You can take a later second gas this way to focus more on droning.

The timings are pretty rough to hit, but generally if you get the baneling drops up and have a large roach force to mop up, you will have a pretty good chance of destroying his army and just plowing through to his third to take it out.

Banelings burrowed are a complete gimmick in ZvP, and I would only use them burrowed in mineral lines of future expansions of the protoss.

On July 18 2012 19:13 Asolmanx wrote:


I love banelings, and i love banelings drops against protoss. I would love to hear more about your build, since i've been trying to do something similar but without much success

On July 18 2012 11:52 Belial88 wrote:


I don't know, it's a completely herpderp bullshit, skilless style, that's why I stopped playing good (3 hatch before lair roach based macro play) and just turtle herp derp. I take a third when the opponent takes a third, and if he's making roaches I mass a shitton of spines. If he attacks me, I chain FG your roaches and go counterattack and focus all of your bases down. Never fails.

My recommendation? Switch to it, it's completely bullshit and it's extremely strong.

I will say this though - of the people I've played, the best way to play against it is to turtle even harder. Roach based attacks against mass ling/infestor is not a good idea with 20 spines there. If you made any roaches before recognizing what was up or to secure your third, use a handful of them to delay the zerg's third as long as possible (you can't do that once infestors are out though, but you can sacrifice 10 roaches to delay their third) while making reinforcing roaches to your third and massing spines (unupgraded banes dont do shit against upgraded lings, so dont think leaving 6 banes at home will do anything).

Then, grab a really quick fourth, basically double expanding, as soon as you see what's going on, and start a hive faster then the opponent. Don't make any infestors, and maybe mass spines, some banes, to make sure ling attacks won't kill you (ling/infestor as an army can actually be quite strong, so be prepared if the opponent masses infestors and actually attacks, which won't really kill you if you have enough roaches but be sure to have at least something, but you are at least safe to get 75 drones before making any roaches). Play even more passive.

From there, you can either go ultras (ultras counter ling/infestor so hard, when its a game of ling/infestor vs ling/infestor, whoever gets ultras out first just wins the game straight up because ultras counter lings and less than 20 infestors so damn hard, so usually its a game of who makes the least infestors/quickest hive) and just do the same thing the opponent is doing and beat them at their own game because you got your third quicker and you only made 10 roaches and made lots of lings and spines and reactive banes with your quicker third and fourth, or on certain maps, like shakuras, you just make a million spines everywhere and turtle hardcore and make nothing and bank everything until you can afford a pure broodlord army all at once. This really only works on very, very specific maps where they can't just go around and kill your other bases, like shakuras if you wall off both your ramps to both your 1-2 base and 3-4 base, and less on maps like... im not sure...they only need 3 bases, and they will get mass corruptors soon enough anyways.

But really, I've just gone into if you cant beat it, join them. But what's worked strongest against me is people who were even more passive, made zero roaches, lots of spines, and made an even quicker hive than me, which is just partially a mistake on my part not getting hive enough, but if you just make zero infestors you can actually do it skillfully.



If you opened 14/14 or 6 pool you autowin. Otherwise, you need to grab gas as soon as you realize what's up (this is why I drone scout in ZvP, I'd recommend you do it too). You simply can't grab a third against gateway expands without ling speed, including 1 gate nexus expands. If you drone scout, you can respond quick enough that you can even get gas before expansion, which is what I'd really recommend.

That build is just a straight loss to 14/14, so if you scout it, react by being as close to that as possible and getting gas before expo, if you can. otherwise you will need to make a spine at your natural, two if it's wide open. MC punished Nestea for not getting gas when he did a gateway expand on Dual Sight in the GSL recently, last time they met up, so yea, you really NEED to get gas asap against gateway play or otherwise stalkers can ruin you, and if you dont get gas before expo, then you will need at least 1 spine, 2 if it's wide open.

From there just grab your third once speed kicks in, and play it out like against a 1 gate sentry expand, i suppose. Here's a replay where I played against something like this recently (i think he did a 3 stalker rush into expand, i dont know, i was very distracted and had to answer the door and the guy was a real douchebag and wouldn't let me pause it, and then he QQ'd about balance when he lost, but you can see I focus down his expansion with a ton of speedlings that he forced with his 3 stalker push and I knew I could do that because he wasn't making sentries):

http://drop.sc/223614

3 gate expand is similar to 1 gate expand - i think they both can do similar pressure at similar timings.


Anyways probably should make third before roach warren (but still both about same time though, which is like 35-40).




Sounds like a weird build. If you do the 5-6 queen build, your queens can easily handle them with pullback micro, transfuse, and a spine or rallying lings if necessary, just make sure to have vision of towers at all times (so make that pair of lings at like 30), since he won't have hellions (and you should still take towers against hellion play anyways). With an overlord sac at ~40 you should have seen he had a ton of rax.

As I state in my zvt guide, linked in profile, sac an overlord at 40+. Drone scouting is becoming standard in ZvT again, although at our level we should always drone scout. You really just want to be drone scouting for cc first or not 1 rax FE play i guess.



for some reason I thought he said when should i take my fourth...

just play more, you'll figure out gas timings and evo timinjgs. Watch a few pro games and take note when they take it. In ZvT people get 2xGas at about 40-50 when planning to take a third before lair, then get the other 2 maybe 10 supply later, and an evo chamber around 50+. In ZvP evo is around 7:15, as should your lair, and 2x gas around 6:00 (i prefer DRG's 3xGas at 6:30, it actually leads to about 3-5 more drones than 2xgas at 6:00, and things time similarly, although your first 100 gas is a bit later, 200 gas total comes much quicker, and I think its much smoother with 3xgas at 6:30 than 2x at 6:00, but its just preference, basically some form of 2xgas at 6:00, or more gas later, or less gas earlier, ie 1 gas at 5:30 and 2nd at 7:00, whatever).

On July 19 2012 01:30 gronnelg wrote:
Hey guys.
I've being doing a stephano-like style for some time now. I make units until I know I'll break the protoss 3rd, and then start macroing and teching towards BL/infestor deathball. Lately, something has been bugging me though.

When I do break the 3rd, the protoss army is usually in shambles. So I'm wondering, maybe I could just kill the protoss there and then instead? So, that kinda means that I already pretty much won the game, but that I just let him live until I have my deathball?

How does the pro go about it? Do they kill the protoss 3rd, to get enough space to get their deathball up? Isnt that the entire point of the stephano attack? What am I missing?

On July 18 2012 19:03 Chaosvuistje wrote:

Generally you can get baneling drops right after lair IF you scout a robo and 4 gasses. It is my favourite way of dealing with the Immo-sentry all in. Just get quicker gas than the stephano style ( I tend to get it around 19 supply, right before my third hatch ) and decide if you need lingspeed or lair first. You can take a later second gas this way to focus more on droning.

The timings are pretty rough to hit, but generally if you get the baneling drops up and have a large roach force to mop up, you will have a pretty good chance of destroying his army and just plowing through to his third to take it out.
.

On July 19 2012 02:00 Asolmanx wrote:
Whats the best composition ZvT against pure bio (MMM) ?

On July 19 2012 02:00 Asolmanx wrote:
Whats the best composition ZvT against pure bio (MMM) ?

On July 19 2012 06:11 neversleeping wrote:
Trying to search through this thread for previous answers but not sure how? 323 pages is a lot to try and sort through. I know this is probably common, but I've recently begun getting lots of Plat-level Terrans on ladder doing variations on heavy marauder / hellion aggression if not completely all-in'ing with it. I've been trying to do 6-8 queen openings (into roaches if they seem to be meching, into ling/infestor if they seem to be going bio or marine / tank) and I just get rolled by this. I'm high Gold so not playing perfectly, but injects are okay-ish; I usually have 4-5 queens and a handful of lings when they hit me and I just can't hold it. I'm guessing I just need to try and scout it sooner? And then what? More lings? Try to get roaches sooner? Thanks.

On July 19 2012 02:58 Belial88 wrote:


Can you PLEASE provide a replay of this because I have never seen anyone hold it like this, I've never seen anyone in the GSL attempt this, and standard lair at 7:15 means drop tech finishes at 10:45, which is at least 15 seconds too late before the push is already shooting a hatchery....