EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 324
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On July 19 2012 07:30 Belial88 wrote: I dont believe you'll have contaminate in time... and you are probably just going to contaminate the warp prism or observer, which just flies over anyways, doesn't delay the push. imo. I can confirm this. I experiment with lots of stuff in ZvP like 3 overseer after lair, and if the Protoss has a well timed robo-sentry push, you will have contaminate after the first two immortals are out at least. Overseer contaminate works great to delay tech AFTER a protoss has done a gateway all in push because you get to delay robo units for a long time OR if the Protoss is planning to do a stalker-Collosus push, in which case you will delay the collosi numbers by a TON if you can contaminate twice. What I DO do to delay the protoss is gas steal in his main. Which means the Protoss has to wait for his natural nexus to finish to get 2 gas geysers running. I also play a hatch-first style with a gas at 17 so it tends to differ a lot from the 15 pool opening timing wise. | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
On July 19 2012 20:15 Asolmanx wrote: How do you go hatch first? do you pull 2 drones to make the hatch? How do you avoid being pylon blocked? I noticed that the problem with hatch first isn't much teh cannon rush, but making it without being blocked, and the fact that you have to have a drone checking around the hatch if some sort of cannon rush is coming, because i feel that if you just keep an overlorld he can do the "boss cannon rush" where he walls in his probe with 3 pylons, but if you have a drone you can follow the probe and not make it happen If you want to plant the hatch you have to sneak it against good protosses, pull a drone and make sure he doesn't see it going to natural, and you will have your hatch up before he realise that no pool was thrown down. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On July 19 2012 20:15 Asolmanx wrote: How do you go hatch first? do you pull 2 drones to make the hatch? How do you avoid being pylon blocked? I noticed that the problem with hatch first isn't much teh cannon rush, but making it without being blocked, and the fact that you have to have a drone checking around the hatch if some sort of cannon rush is coming, because i feel that if you just keep an overlorld he can do the "boss cannon rush" where he walls in his probe with 3 pylons, but if you have a drone you can follow the probe and not make it happen There are many ways to sneak out a drone for a hatch first. But my overall favourite one is to move a drone behind the mineral line to make it appear as if you are going for a pool, have the probe move over to block it, and then sneak in the drone to the natural to build a hatchery. Obviously there is the keep-a-drone-hidden near the natural as well, but most good protosses tend to go straight for the natural in case they don't see a pool, which makes this method sort of iffy because you're losing mining time as well as hoping that the probe doesn't go back to the natural. If I see the probe instantly bounce back to the natural, I go for a 15 pool instead. Otherwise, 14 hatch will do. Anyway, I got a decentish replay showing off the overlord-drop method for dealing with immortal-sentry all ins. Note that the protoss doesn't hit straight at 10:15 but at 10:49, and that my overlords are way out of position to save the hatch. I had the units prepared in time, but they were out in the wrong spot due to the scouting on my part being terrible. He had time to snipe the hatch and throw up forcefields before I could overwhelm him, hence the eventual loss. http://drop.sc/224203 Belial, you are correct that it won't hit in time for a 10:15 bust. But this is the closest I've come to coming up with a build that atleast deals with the Immortal-sentry all in consistantly without relying on clutch surrounds with Roach/Ling. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On July 19 2012 19:00 Chaosvuistje wrote: I can confirm this. I experiment with lots of stuff in ZvP like 3 overseer after lair, and if the Protoss has a well timed robo-sentry push, you will have contaminate after the first two immortals are out at least. Overseer contaminate works great to delay tech AFTER a protoss has done a gateway all in push because you get to delay robo units for a long time OR if the Protoss is planning to do a stalker-Collosus push, in which case you will delay the collosi numbers by a TON if you can contaminate twice. What I DO do to delay the protoss is gas steal in his main. Which means the Protoss has to wait for his natural nexus to finish to get 2 gas geysers running. I also play a hatch-first style with a gas at 17 so it tends to differ a lot from the 15 pool opening timing wise. Oh I hate stealing gas in Toss' base. Just makes everything so confusing, since you have to rely on scouting Toss' gas so much to see what's going on. Don't want to find out at 8:00 with 7 zealots in my base with warping in stalkers that Toss didn't take any gas in his main and went with an 8 gate ;/ It's interesting, but even still, that just means your drop tech is done while Toss is already shooting your hatch? I'd just have to see a rep of someone holding an immortal/sentry all-in that arrives by 10:30. I've never seen anyone hold it with drop tech... Could you please upload one of you holding it, or anyone holding it? I do agree roach/ling sucks ass, you can't fight immortals head on, but I've only seen base trading as the most secure way to beat it, which seems to work every time actually. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346148¤tpage=3 since that i did slight changes but overall you can work with that. start building lings @ 8:30 and morph some banelings as soon as blingnest finishes. rally ALL lings AND 6-8 banelings near his base so you can attack as soon as he moves out. after he FF: retreat immediately. you dont want to kill anything, just stall. do so again and again till your banelingdrop is ready. you will force some more warp ins before he can safely move out which is just the time you need. btw 800 points EU master here. will upload some replays next week since i am not at home till then. just remind me next week, since i will probably forget :D | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On July 19 2012 22:32 Belial88 wrote: Oh I hate stealing gas in Toss' base. Just makes everything so confusing, since you have to rely on scouting Toss' gas so much to see what's going on. Don't want to find out at 8:00 with 7 zealots in my base with warping in stalkers that Toss didn't take any gas in his main and went with an 8 gate ;/ This is actually VERY easy to scout. All you have to do is gas-steal his main while keeping an overlord over his natural to check when he takes gasses. You get a lot of scouting information in and generally if he hasn't taken 2 gasses by 4:30 he is doing something funky like a gateway allin, which is very easily held by just building roaches instead of going for the droptech. My scouting relies a lot around the gas of protoss and lot less about scouting robo, twilight or stargate tech. Since you can guess pretty effectively which is coming at you ( forge upgrading? Probably won't be stargate tech. Cybercore chronoing with only 1 or two gasses taken? Probably gateway allin. Quick 3 gasses taken? Get a spore at each base, probably stargate or dt tech ). On July 19 2012 22:32 Belial88 wrote: It's interesting, but even still, that just means your drop tech is done while Toss is already shooting your hatch? I'd just have to see a rep of someone holding an immortal/sentry all-in that arrives by 10:30. I've never seen anyone hold it with drop tech... Could you please upload one of you holding it, or anyone holding it? I do agree roach/ling sucks ass, you can't fight immortals head on, but I've only seen base trading as the most secure way to beat it, which seems to work every time actually. That replay was without me doing a gas steal, which normally delays the push by about 30 seconds. That usually gets droptech in time for me to hold it. To be fair this was the first protoss I met in a long time doing the Immo-sentry all in, so I'm not sure when I get to post the next replay of it. But I generally don't favour basetrading with Roach/Ling because of Sentries being so much fun to bump your head into. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
Here's a recent game: http://drop.sc/224494 At 12 minutes, have a big army lead, and don't attack. At 27 minutes, win the first big engagement, have a HUGE army lead and don't attack. (Of course other things lost me the game in the end, but it'd never have gotten to that point had I attacked earlier) This is becoming a bit of a theme in my losing games. Thoughts? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
so im confused why some people think drops or banelings are the answer? Chaos - check out the "nestea's anti-immortal sentry build' thread I made. I post a bunch of reps in there. Basically, what I do is when I see a robo, I'll respond by gassing up quickly (4th gas at 7:30 since I go 3xgas at 6:30, 5 and 6th gas at 8:00). I still usually make the roach warren in case of things like warp prism or 4 gate +1 as necessary, unless I scout lots of sentries and immortal production already, but whatever, just dont get roach speed or upgrades, and get a spire immediately while hiding all the overlords for eventual base trade. I then send an overseer to see his gateway count - if theres 6+, ie an all-in, I won't make a macro hatch and instead mass spines in natural, or start to. If I see only 1-5, I make a macro hatch. I bank gas, mass lings from 8:30+ as standard (massing units from 8:30, that is). Toss will probably kill my third, but only if they are good. By the time he arrives I'll have at least 10 spines in my natural to prevent him from going that way first, I'll send out drones in time around the map for the base trade, and by the time he's finished my third off, I've sniped his sentries and wall-off at his base and a million lings and 20+ mutas are in his base. If he goes robo expand, this response is even stronger, whereas any roach/ling based response (base trade or straight up fighting) is just terrible against robo expands. It's how I've found a way to beat immortal/sentry all-in consistently, without relying on toss positioning badly on a ramp or hoping for a good map (no stupid cloud kingdom). | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Just show me a game where Toss does a 10:30 immortal/sentry all-in and it won't be very hard to convince me there might be something to it. As it stands, I just don't see it, especially since most zergs don't start lair these days until well after 7:15, more like 7:45 nowadays. All I'm hearing is "well ultras stop immortal/sentry all-in, dont knock it until you try it, just delay with roach/ling'. Toss is committed, he's going to be moving out, a good toss isn't going to be delayed that much by ling runby's as he walls off his base and already has pylons set up and you are just starting to pump units and don't have a significant amount to delay Toss. That's the whole point of the build, it's this timing that hits when you don't have many units. if you could just 'delay with ling/bane' or 'just delay with roach/ling then immortal/sentry would be very easy to hold, as by 11:30 you simply have enough speed roaches to straight up stomp it. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
i start lair at 7:40 so 11:10 is when drop is ready. if you get him to FF just once that means about 20 sec. so basically get him to FF twice und you crush him. even IF you lose your 3rd your can just kill him afterwards, but it shouldnt happen since you really can delay with mass ling bling. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Anyway, I got a decentish replay showing off the overlord-drop method for dealing with immortal-sentry all ins. Note that the protoss doesn't hit straight at 10:15 but at 10:49, and that my overlords are way out of position to save the hatch. I had the units prepared in time, but they were out in the wrong spot due to the scouting on my part being terrible. He had time to snipe the hatch and throw up forcefields before I could overwhelm him, hence the eventual loss. http://drop.sc/224203 You are at 46 supply at the 8:00 mark... I think that platinum zerg who asked for help was even past this. You can't possibly win with your supply being so low at this late in the game >< You go gas before third, that was weird. The toss in this game did not do a good immortal/sentry all-in. He didn't even start moving out until 10:30, which is when he should have been in your base killing you. At 10:30 all you have is 30 lings, and while you do have droptech, your baneling nest isn't finished, and you would have been completely destroyed. A simple immortal/sentry all-in would have won the game by now. The only reason you have drop tech so quickly is because of your weird, non-standard build that rushed lair really quickly. You start lair at 6:20 - most zergs don't even have any of their gases taken by this point, yet you have 2 gas taken and started lair already. You've just destroyed your economy, you only have 30 workers at the 7:00 mark! when most zergs have definitely at least 40 by this time, with a lot more on the way. By 8:00, you have only 40 workers. He kills your third anyways, and you do kill his entire army, but the game is just weird now... You could have done the exact same thing using roach/ling - anyone can beat immortal/sentry army with just straight up roach/ling, the problem is keeping the third alive in the process. But your drone count has been so low all game long and you rushed lair so fast, you really should have just gone 2 base lair baneling drop instead - you would have had your full 50 drones instead of 40, and wayyyy more lings, if you went 2 base instead of 3. Instead you just kill yourself economically because you essentially go 2 base lair, but take a third really quickly too. I don't think you did an optimal build, and you rushed lair way too quickly. I think your build doesnt make much sense, and it's evident in your drone count (yes, some of that is poor macro, but a lot of it is just your build with super fast gas and lair and then taking third). You can't both gas/third/lair like that and have drones, you have to cut it, hence why you either go third or lair as zerg. After you've killed his army, Toss is still ahead, and he wins the game. You say you lost because of positioning, but I say you lost because of just a bad build and super fast lair. You might as well just go 2 base lair mass roach, 2 base lair baneling drops, or 3 base roach/ling and just lose the third in the process like everyone else does (which I guess still loses, as you do.... i dont know). I don't really see this game as a proof of concept, because Toss his 2 minutes too late, he would have killed you if he did the build correctly (i get it, we aren't pros, but even diamonds can hit 4 gate at the right time, it's not a matter of being good or not he simply just screwed up the timing and couldnt pull off a build order), and even with the game going as it has, you lose. well yes you need to delay. but thats no problem since you will have a shitload of lings and some blings the time he wants to move out. after that you just CRUSH his push. i start lair at 7:40 so 11:10 is when drop is ready. if you get him to FF just once that means about 20 sec. so basically get him to FF twice und you crush him. even IF you lose your 3rd your can just kill him afterwards, but it shouldnt happen since you really can delay with mass ling bling. Why would you have a shitload of lings and banelings when he moves out? You must be making lings wayy before 8:00 if this is the case, otherwise Toss should be able to move out just fine. And lair done started at 7:40, drops done by 11:10, you are not facing correct immortal/sentry pushes. Toss should be moving out and hitting you by 10:30. As in, you force some FF's and he hits at 10:30 instead of 10:15. You can just lose your third and then kill Toss' army using roach/ling, so I don't see the improvement, and the whole point is to not lose your third. Please, show me a replay of you beating an immortal sentry all-in that moves out by 9:30 and hits you by 10:30. if you delay toss, that's fine, show me how you delay toss, maybe if you delay him in a certain way that is sure-fire, I can see it, but I just don't see it right now. it just sounds like people are facing people who aren't doing true immortal/sentry all-ins. And I get it, I rarely face good immortal/sentry all-ins and my muta build just stomps Toss on ladder, my muta build might not even work against a true immortal/sentry all-in, but I think it would because I've faced immortal/sentry all-ins that was shooting my third by 10:30 and I sac'd it and base traded and massed spines in my nat and that was what won me the game, but I just dont see it with this baneling drop playstyle. it just sounds like you aren't playing immortal/sentry all-ins that are pulled off correctly. Sorry. You can do the 'wrong' answer and make it work with good macro for a long time, but if you are going to rely on just a build that won't work at higher level play, imo just go with mutas. Or infestors. Or mass burrow move roaches even. Or do a response that actually works if toss does it correctly, so when they do it wrong its even easier to hold. | ||
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Hemingway
United States55 Posts
However, where I run into problems is when my opponent is simply playing suboptimally. For example, I'll often see no gas at the usual time which indicates a gateway timing, so I'll drop a roach warren and build an army, then scout for proxy pylons. But then two gas will go down at 7:45 and I'll be left with a weak economy and an army which is totally useless against my idiot opponent who is doing some wonky two-base half-tech play wherein he forgets to add his gas. This ZvP is simply an example, and my question boils down to this: what's the best way to deal with opponents playing "wrong"? I can't exactly sac overlords all game to scout without getting behind an opponent who macros decently, and I can't simply play standard and tech to broodlords when my opponent may be planning to show up at my front door with a 3base army of voidrays and carriers which I can't hope to defend against unless I have a million bases. Should I become the aggressor and 12:00 max on roaches for ZvP and roach/ling/bane bust all my Terran opponents until I start playing against opponents who operate at the higher end of the metagame? Or should I put obscene focus on scouting and reactions and simply gut my way up, accepting losses to suboptimal builds that catch me off-guard? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
2. If you are losing to suboptimal play, sorry, its totally your macro. If you are in platinum, then your macro is definitely very deficient. You must be getting supply blocked at least once before 8:00, making multiple overlords at once before 33 supply, not constantly making workers, missing injects in the first 8:00. You need to iron this shit out. Your play should look like a pros in the first 8:00, there is no reason not to. Afterwards, you can fall apart, but if your macro is good enough in the first 8:00, you will likely just have a very easy time afterwards. If Toss gets 2 gas at 7:45, that is not sub-optimal. Toss having no gas by 6:30 means they are doing a gate all-in of some sort, and just grabbing those 2 gas because hell why not, they already have those 8 gateways thrown down. Get ready. Toss often do this, and Toss DOES need 4 gas on 2 base, what we are talking about when we say scouting gas, is no gas by 6:30, 2 gas by 6:30, et cetera. Every toss will have 4 gas by 6:30. (okay, maybe 7:00, but really, 2xgas thrown down as late as 6:31 should mean 4 gate +1 timing). If you pumped roach/ling and got speed before lair, you'll be fine, you already made those 55 drones anyways, and Toss' tech will be just as behind as yours because he got gas late and you got lair a bit later. Your economy should be just as strong either way, you drone up purely up to 8:00 regardless of what toss is doing, you just make a roach warren and get speed instead of lair up to 8:00 depending on what Toss is doing is all, and make units after 8:00 instead of drone for just 30 more seconds. Post a replay of this, maybe I can be more specific if you post a rep. If I don't reach 70 supply in a game, I pretty know I'm going to lose the game, so if I'm only at 62 supply at 8:00, or whatever, then it's pretty obvious why you lost that particular game. If your opponent is doing a 3 base anything, you should have broodlords in time. Void rays dont exactly counter broodlords, if he shows up with 3 base mass void ray, well, you already made 10 infestors and probably have a couple corruptors lying around so it'll be easy to handle that army. If he's doing carriers, that should have been obvious when you poked around with an overseer and with your ling army... it should be no surprise. You shouldn't necessarily be the aggressor and max roaches every game, but that is a viable way to play (if somewhat all-innish). What I recommend you do, is drone up to 70-odd drones if you can asap, but that is just like up to 9:00 of the game, so aftterwards, if you want to be not allinnish and tech and macro more, just mass lings, since they are basically free since they cost no gas (and you actually need them with infestors to hold pushes before hive tech anyways). With that ling army you should always be poking around to see what Toss is doing... Just post a rep, your questions seem sort of open ended. If you are suddenly surprised by 3 base carrier you are doing something wrong. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On July 20 2012 00:31 Belial88 wrote: You are at 46 supply at the 8:00 mark... I think that platinum zerg who asked for help was even past this. You can't possibly win with your supply being so low at this late in the game >< You go gas before third, that was weird. The toss in this game did not do a good immortal/sentry all-in. He didn't even start moving out until 10:30, which is when he should have been in your base killing you. At 10:30 all you have is 30 lings, and while you do have droptech, your baneling nest isn't finished, and you would have been completely destroyed. A simple immortal/sentry all-in would have won the game by now. The only reason you have drop tech so quickly is because of your weird, non-standard build that rushed lair really quickly. You start lair at 6:20 - most zergs don't even have any of their gases taken by this point, yet you have 2 gas taken and started lair already. You've just destroyed your economy, you only have 30 workers at the 7:00 mark! when most zergs have definitely at least 40 by this time, with a lot more on the way. By 8:00, you have only 40 workers. Well yeah, I do have a lot fewer workers because I intend to drone up after an all in, not right up until 50 just because you can't get droptech that fast in that case. I understand your viewpoint since you're used to having more drones at that point due to going for a third before gas, but this is generally what a gas-at-17 build looks like. It's not designed to be vastly economically ahead against Protoss, but rather to keep up with the probe count while getting faster tech out, it's an economical trade off to stop a specific all in incase I scout it. On July 20 2012 00:31 Belial88 wrote: He kills your third anyways, and you do kill his entire army, but the game is just weird now... You could have done the exact same thing using roach/ling - anyone can beat immortal/sentry army with just straight up roach/ling, the problem is keeping the third alive in the process. But your drone count has been so low all game long and you rushed lair so fast, you really should have just gone 2 base lair baneling drop instead - you would have had your full 50 drones instead of 40, and wayyyy more lings, if you went 2 base instead of 3. Instead you just kill yourself economically because you essentially go 2 base lair, but take a third really quickly too. I don't think you did an optimal build, and you rushed lair way too quickly. I think your build doesnt make much sense, and it's evident in your drone count (yes, some of that is poor macro, but a lot of it is just your build with super fast gas and lair and then taking third). You can't both gas/third/lair like that and have drones, you have to cut it, hence why you either go third or lair as zerg. If I did keep my third ( which absolutely WOULD have happened if my overlords weren't out of the picture for 10 whole seconds ) I am easily ahead due to me having a third and the protoss lacking one. Sure his probecount might be higher, but three hatches with queens injecting tend to catch up to dronecount real fast. If you want to drone up to 50 with this build, you obviously won't reach that. The point is to destroy the sentries and flood in with reinforcing army and stop the push right in its tracks. You take a third to lure the Protoss out of his base, because otherwise he will just turtle up and fend off 2 base pushes. Trust me, it's better to have a lamely saturated third to lure out all ins with this build than to just stick on two bases and watch the protoss turtle up and take a third at the same time as me. I haven't faced these mythical perfect immortal-sentry all ins yet, but I've been doing decent with this style rather than just rolling over and dying because of good forcefields. | ||
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sathin
United States46 Posts
what are peoples thoughts to this i put this in help because i just want help on seeing if this is good so that i can feel safe throwing it into my standard play | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Well yeah, I do have a lot fewer workers because I intend to drone up after an all in, not right up until 50 just because you can't get droptech that fast in that case. I understand your viewpoint since you're used to having more drones at that point due to going for a third before gas, but this is generally what a gas-at-17 build looks like. It's not designed to be vastly economically ahead against Protoss, but rather to keep up with the probe count while getting faster tech out, it's an economical trade off to stop a specific all in incase I scout it. That's because you get lair wayyy too quickly and gas too early. You are just killing yourself economically to get something that arguably won't even work. If you did baneling drops as a 2 base build, I think you'd have much more success as you'd have way more drones, more lings, and quicker tech. You are simply spreading yourself way too thin, and you are basically killing yourself to get drop tech. If Toss had simply expanded he would have a commanding lead in the game (not to mention if he did the push right he would have won too). You aren't stopping an all-in is the problem - if someone did the build right, they'd kill you, even in this game he doesn't do the build right and killed you (lets say he hit 20 seconds earlier and you were positioned correctly, and that's still more than a minute late of a push). There's a reason people don't get at 17 and get a third - it's all-in (which is why zenio's 3 hatch baneling bust looks very similar, really). Any robo expand build would just be wayyy ahead of you, and even in the case of a well executed all-in you won't hold. You just can't get lair and a third like that as zerg, or else your drone count falls. That's what happened here - you have to kill your drone count even more than it's already killed, just to possibly hold an all-in that isn't even executed well. If I did keep my third ( which absolutely WOULD have happened if my overlords weren't out of the picture for 10 whole seconds ) I am easily ahead due to me having a third and the protoss lacking one. Sure his probecount might be higher, but three hatches with queens injecting tend to catch up to dronecount real fast. If you want to drone up to 50 with this build, you obviously won't reach that. The point is to destroy the sentries and flood in with reinforcing army and stop the push right in its tracks. You take a third to lure the Protoss out of his base, because otherwise he will just turtle up and fend off 2 base pushes. Trust me, it's better to have a lamely saturated third to lure out all ins with this build than to just stick on two bases and watch the protoss turtle up and take a third at the same time as me. I haven't faced these mythical perfect immortal-sentry all ins yet, but I've been doing decent with this style rather than just rolling over and dying because of good forcefields. There would have been no way you could have held if Toss did the build correctly, and you struggled with a Toss and eventually lost with one who did the build absolutely terribly, hitting 2 minutes late, etc. And any sort of timing would have done damage to you in this game, any sort of blink all-in or whatever would have won too. You just don't have enough drones to sustain yourself at all. You aren't 'ahead' of Toss if you have a third... you are just breaking even. If Toss did a robo expand build he just wins because he's so far ahead of you. "Sure his probe count might be higher' is a huge mistake! It's game ending! That shouldn't happen! It's like you are completely sacrificing your economy to hopefully hold a poorly executed all-in. If the build was executed correctly, you lose (you still lose even to a bad execution, and it has nothing to do with being out of position and everything to do with you simply not having enough stuff). If Toss played a macro oriented game, you lose. You are basically doing an all-in, so if Toss does an all-in, you might hold, but after it's all said and done Toss is still ahead as he has the tech and just remakes army while you have to drone up to what normal builds already had for minutes. Sorry, I just don't see what you are doing as viable at all. No one gets a gas like that unless they are doing an all-in. And against a well executed push you'd die. And you die in this game too. I don't think it's viable ;/ I mean the guy kills your hatch when you try to remake it because you still can't beat his army. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
What can you do against those 1 gate - Nexus - Forge - Core openers? Really irritating when I run into them. I react by getting speed and trying to play a macro game, but I just feel like I'm too far behind these builds. My third is too late by taking gas, and just because I didn't open 14/14, they get away with a build that's ridiculous. It would just build order lose to 14/14, and since I drone scout I will react as quick as going 14p/15g/16h, but it's just not enough to try to do any sort of pressure (and ive tried before). Is there maybe some sort of roach all-in I could do that would autowin against these builds? | ||
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