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He goes robo/twilight on 2 base, so I rush mutas. He actually masses cannons everywhere, he puts like 5 at his natural and a bunch by the wall-off he made at the ramp on cloud kingdom. Then he makes even more cannons at his third.
So there's no way for Zerg to really deny Toss from just massing cannons and sentries and evvveeentually taking his third, as is the case in this game.
I know exactly what he's doing, he's making a ton of archons and a mothership.
He isn't retarded, and this map is cloud kingdom. He proceeds to vortex me over and over, there's nothing I can really do against it. I split well, I never have all of my broods get caught in a single vortex (seems like he aimed more for my infestors than my broodlords).
god damnit. What's stopping diamonds from just massing cannons, mothership, archons (i guess that is why we see a million guides on it).
He goes robo/twilight on 2 base, so I rush mutas. He actually masses cannons everywhere, he puts like 5 at his natural and a bunch by the wall-off he made at the ramp on cloud kingdom. Then he makes even more cannons at his third.
So there's no way for Zerg to really deny Toss from just massing cannons and sentries and evvveeentually taking his third, as is the case in this game.
I know exactly what he's doing, he's making a ton of archons and a mothership.
He isn't retarded, and this map is cloud kingdom. He proceeds to vortex me over and over, there's nothing I can really do against it. I split well, I never have all of my broods get caught in a single vortex (seems like he aimed more for my infestors than my broodlords).
god damnit. What's stopping diamonds from just massing cannons, mothership, archons (i guess that is why we see a million guides on it).
The Stephano-max would've crushed that. Also you could've teched much faster since you saw so many cannons.
As soon as I saw the cannons I threw down an infestation pit, cut mutas, and started rushing hive. I don't think it was a problem of not having broodlords in time, was it?
And you're telling me 2 opposites - roach max, but tech faster. And you sure a roach max has a good chance against a robo expand? Especially on cloud kingdom?
He goes robo/twilight on 2 base, so I rush mutas. He actually masses cannons everywhere, he puts like 5 at his natural and a bunch by the wall-off he made at the ramp on cloud kingdom. Then he makes even more cannons at his third.
So there's no way for Zerg to really deny Toss from just massing cannons and sentries and evvveeentually taking his third, as is the case in this game.
I know exactly what he's doing, he's making a ton of archons and a mothership.
He isn't retarded, and this map is cloud kingdom. He proceeds to vortex me over and over, there's nothing I can really do against it. I split well, I never have all of my broods get caught in a single vortex (seems like he aimed more for my infestors than my broodlords).
god damnit. What's stopping diamonds from just massing cannons, mothership, archons (i guess that is why we see a million guides on it).
What do you think about your upgrades that game? and also what about your infestor usage - how did that effect the outcome.
^ I really don't think upgrades were the critical reason I lost.
I tried to NP a mothership that was lagging behind and he just vortexed them. This led me to clearing out his army with my mass broodlords and ground support but not very cost efficiently.
Why is it that many zergs get +1 ranged when executing the typical gasless 3 hatch into roach/ling? Does this give some sort of significant gain in efficacy against gateway units or could i forgo it in favour of melee upgrades in preparation for a ling/infestor/spine fast transition to hive?
+1 on roaches means they get +2 damage. Since upgrades are rounded, 16 damage roaches is close to 20, and a 10% increase of 16, rounded by 10's to 20, means it gets +2 damage. The same formula also means stalkers only get +1 damage, so they scale very poorly.
+1 ranged arguably is less useful later into the game when you want melee/carapace solely because of 'free' gasless lings, broodlords (broodlings with melee is the major source of dps on broodlords, not air attack), and ultras. So +1 ranged is looking more short term, like if you plan to max on roaches or just would rather have it to deal with early-midgame Toss pressure, while melee is better for the long game, and carapace is useful for both but is likely not that useful because Toss is going to be racing in weapons upgrades anyways, and is more expensive.
It's a trade-off. All 3 upgrades are viable, and useful. It's just what is your goal. And obviously, in general, armor upgrades are better if you plan to be defensive, and attack is better if you plan to be aggrsesive.
If you like to play a fast hive style and make as few roaches as possible, and are okay with Toss getting a third and would rather not pressure and try to deny it or end the game there but would rather instead race to the lategame, then yea, melee upgrades would probably be more useful. Personally, i go for melee - it costs less at a time you are starved for money, lings are more useful as dps for that dreaded immortal/sentry or stalker attacks, and it has more application into the lategame.
He goes robo/twilight on 2 base, so I rush mutas. He actually masses cannons everywhere, he puts like 5 at his natural and a bunch by the wall-off he made at the ramp on cloud kingdom. Then he makes even more cannons at his third.
So there's no way for Zerg to really deny Toss from just massing cannons and sentries and evvveeentually taking his third, as is the case in this game.
I know exactly what he's doing, he's making a ton of archons and a mothership.
He isn't retarded, and this map is cloud kingdom. He proceeds to vortex me over and over, there's nothing I can really do against it. I split well, I never have all of my broods get caught in a single vortex (seems like he aimed more for my infestors than my broodlords).
god damnit. What's stopping diamonds from just massing cannons, mothership, archons (i guess that is why we see a million guides on it).
Watched the whole game.
Can't believe you downplay losing all your infestors at 21:00. BL-infestor is the unbeatable endgame comp, naked BL is mostly trash against mothership-archon-stalker. Hell, pure stalker beats pure BL if you get a good blink. You lost every infestor but one out-of-energy straggler into that vortex. You might as well have gotten every BL but one vortexed, it's nearly the same effect (critical piece of army gone, have to retreat, both halves suck by themselves so now you lose). You lost there, at that one vortex, no question about it. It sucks that it came down to that, but at least toss is sitting in fear of getting their mothership NP'd while zerg tries to avoid vortex.
I would recommend doing the mass corruptor-style mothership snipe when you're that far ahead, don't try for NP unless that's your only option. When you're that far ahead, sinking a lot into corruptors, then sending corruptors+leftover mutas at the mothership is your best option. I know corruptors don't help in the end battle after the mothership goes down, but the vortex is everything, worst case you force a vortex on the corruptors and lose them (well absolute worst, you don't even force the vortex). Try that next time you're ahead. I know there's a game from some time ago (on entombed I think) where corruptors keep sniping the mothership and eventually BL-infestor runs rampant.
Hope that helps. You know I'm a level below you so take all this with a grain of salt I guess. But yeah, watch your infestors, that's really about all there is to say about this game.
Can't believe you downplay losing all your infestors at 21:00. BL-infestor is the unbeatable endgame comp, naked BL is mostly trash against mothership-archon-stalker. Hell, pure stalker beats pure BL if you get a good blink. You lost every infestor but one out-of-energy straggler into that vortex. You might as well have gotten every BL but one vortexed, it's nearly the same effect (critical piece of army gone, have to retreat, both halves suck by themselves so now you lose). You lost there, at that one vortex, no question about it. It sucks that it came down to that, but at least toss is sitting in fear of getting their mothership NP'd while zerg tries to avoid vortex.
damn, i was thinking about that. Next time I'm going to make more infestors, and spam more IT. It was a ripe spot to spam them (by his fourth). I thought I was okay since I made all those banes, and I didn't really lose all my bl at that time or any econ. I remade my bl/infestor army again... it just sucked because he just vortexed that army too.
Just felt lame I couldn't do anything against a toss who literally just masses cannons everywhere at 12:00, loses his third anyways, and whatever. I guess my anger should be a blizz ><
That's interesting what you say about the corruptor snipe, but i dont know how good an idea that would be when Toss has so many archons. Sniping a unit requires stacking, stacking requires splash, splash requires death...
Just felt lame I couldn't do anything against a toss who literally just masses cannons everywhere at 12:00, loses his third anyways, and whatever. I guess my anger should be a blizz ><
That's interesting what you say about the corruptor snipe, but i dont know how good an idea that would be when Toss has so many archons. Sniping a unit requires stacking, stacking requires splash, splash requires death...
your advice is helpful. Thanks.
Yeah, the whole turtle toss thing bothers me, too. The "counter", in terms of RTS canon, is to outexpand the guy and let him waste money on cannons... but the mothership messes that up because it means out-expanding someone isn't a winning move, and it's not even always advantageous, because vortex by itself decides endgame battles (that's barely even hyperbole), so you want to force a fight before he has it if possible... but he's turtled up so you can't... sigh. Vortex. It's the most ridiculous instant aoe in the game, fungal is downright terrible compared to it.
Corruptor snipe is easier than you think if you remember to use corrupt, and I can manage it even without air weapons (not a big muta player so I don't often get air upgrades). Your muta tendencies should mean that you will generally have +1, and you can throw your excess mutas into the attack, too. And in terms of archon splash, pre-splitting corruptors is fairly simple, as is flanking with them to prevent the mothership from running. You'll usually have the space to do either or both, since the mothership army is almost always at a forward, more exposed base. Just don't try to box-split them mid-fight, they get way too bunched up, and 9/10 times you'll just end up moving every single one around, resulting in none firing and all wandering into some lucky archon. Oh and don't forget that you can also sneak an infestor forward at the same time, either for NP or just to fungal the thing so it can't run (or if you forget NP like I tend to haha).
On July 20 2012 08:49 Belial88 wrote: As soon as I saw the cannons I threw down an infestation pit, cut mutas, and started rushing hive. I don't think it was a problem of not having broodlords in time, was it?
And you're telling me 2 opposites - roach max, but tech faster. And you sure a roach max has a good chance against a robo expand? Especially on cloud kingdom?
No I didn't. I said the Stephano-max would have crushed that, but you didn't use that strategy. You tried to tech, but you could've done that so much faster. And yes I'm sure it has a good chance. If you do it properly you will be maxed around 11:00-11:30. At that point he had what, five sentries and 80 supply?
On July 20 2012 08:49 Belial88 wrote: As soon as I saw the cannons I threw down an infestation pit, cut mutas, and started rushing hive. I don't think it was a problem of not having broodlords in time, was it?
And you're telling me 2 opposites - roach max, but tech faster. And you sure a roach max has a good chance against a robo expand? Especially on cloud kingdom?
No I didn't. I said the Stephano-max would have crushed that, but you didn't use that strategy. You tried to tech, but you could've done that so much faster. And yes I'm sure it has a good chance. If you do it properly you will be maxed around 11:00-11:30. At that point he had what, five sentries and 80 supply?
Cloud Kingdom is one of those maps where you simply should not roach-max on unless you gain a huge advantage early because he cannon rushes you and it failed or something. The third is just so damn easy to hold, and you can wall the natural ramp as well.... 1 sentry holds that choke, 2 if you spend time killing the rocks.
You shouldn't begrudge someone's choice in strategy because "it would have worked that specific game"
On July 20 2012 08:49 Belial88 wrote: As soon as I saw the cannons I threw down an infestation pit, cut mutas, and started rushing hive. I don't think it was a problem of not having broodlords in time, was it?
And you're telling me 2 opposites - roach max, but tech faster. And you sure a roach max has a good chance against a robo expand? Especially on cloud kingdom?
No I didn't. I said the Stephano-max would have crushed that, but you didn't use that strategy. You tried to tech, but you could've done that so much faster. And yes I'm sure it has a good chance. If you do it properly you will be maxed around 11:00-11:30. At that point he had what, five sentries and 80 supply?
Cloud Kingdom is one of those maps where you simply should not roach-max on unless you gain a huge advantage early because he cannon rushes you and it failed or something. The third is just so damn easy to hold, and you can wall the natural ramp as well.... 1 sentry holds that choke, 2 if you spend time killing the rocks.
You shouldn't begrudge someone's choice in strategy because "it would have worked that specific game"
I didn't begrudge anything. You should focus on major macro flaws before anything else. In my opinion, the mistake he made was teching too late even though he saw P turtling like crazy. Why bother with small micro mistakes 10 minutes after? If you have better macro in the first place, mistakes like that usually fix themselves.
On July 20 2012 07:38 Belial88 wrote: Hi I have a question:
What can you do against those 1 gate - Nexus - Forge - Core openers?
Really irritating when I run into them. I react by getting speed and trying to play a macro game, but I just feel like I'm too far behind these builds. My third is too late by taking gas, and just because I didn't open 14/14, they get away with a build that's ridiculous. It would just build order lose to 14/14, and since I drone scout I will react as quick as going 14p/15g/16h, but it's just not enough to try to do any sort of pressure (and ive tried before).
Is there maybe some sort of roach all-in I could do that would autowin against these builds?
You can try to get a fast third and proceed by taking a fast 4:30 gas. That's what dimaga does every game, also, i saw DRG do this against naniwa after scouting gate expand. As for the roach allin, i don't know maybe the Leenock's 10 roach-allin with cancel at expo could work. Or you can try to prevend a full wall of at the natural's ramp with a hatch, and then try to rush for speedlings. If you let the hatch finish, or maybe build an evo, you can try taking it down to get broodlings. Or else, you can jsut cancel it, providing an opening for your units. Since the forge is delayed, it will be harder for him to save the natural, he is only going to have zealots and maybe a cannon i guess. Just an idea, i've never tried it, i'm just theorycrafting.
I have a question about ZvT. What is the 3 hatch 6 queen weak against? And is it ok to get 4 gas at 54 supply approx, if i want to transition into ling bane infestor? When should i drop a macro hatch?
On July 20 2012 07:38 Belial88 wrote: Hi I have a question:
What can you do against those 1 gate - Nexus - Forge - Core openers?
Really irritating when I run into them. I react by getting speed and trying to play a macro game, but I just feel like I'm too far behind these builds. My third is too late by taking gas, and just because I didn't open 14/14, they get away with a build that's ridiculous. It would just build order lose to 14/14, and since I drone scout I will react as quick as going 14p/15g/16h, but it's just not enough to try to do any sort of pressure (and ive tried before).
Is there maybe some sort of roach all-in I could do that would autowin against these builds?
You can try to get a fast third and proceed by taking a fast 4:30 gas. That's what dimaga does every game, also, i saw DRG do this against naniwa after scouting gate expand. As for the roach allin, i don't know maybe the Leenock's 10 roach-allin with cancel at expo could work. Or you can try to prevend a full wall of at the natural's ramp with a hatch, and then try to rush for speedlings. If you let the hatch finish, or maybe build an evo, you can try taking it down to get broodlings. Or else, you can jsut cancel it, providing an opening for your units. Since the forge is delayed, it will be harder for him to save the natural, he is only going to have zealots and maybe a cannon i guess. Just an idea, i've never tried it, i'm just theorycrafting.
I have a question about ZvT. What is the 3 hatch 6 queen weak against? And is it ok to get 4 gas at 54 supply approx, if i want to transition into ling bane infestor? When should i drop a macro hatch?
Very weak against bio actually since your speed and banelings are so late. Check this and jump to six minutes: .
Lower players actually lose to that pressure. You have to be spot on with your timings to defend properly. The terran didn't even touch the third for some reason.
On July 20 2012 12:18 734pot wrote: Why is it that many zergs get +1 ranged when executing the typical gasless 3 hatch into roach/ling? Does this give some sort of significant gain in efficacy against gateway units or could i forgo it in favour of melee upgrades in preparation for a ling/infestor/spine fast transition to hive?
I actually think that +1 ranged is more commonly upgraded because of the heavy roach/ling midgame. During engagements, your lings won't be doing much damage anyways because +1 zealots will completely rip them to shreds. +1 ranged means the main damage dealers of your composition, roaches, get the more important upgrade. +1 range might also be upgraded just because its cheaper than carapace, but I think that +1 armor is much more important. +1 armor means zealots will still take 3 hits to kill lings even with a +1 weapons for the protoss, which is 99% of the time the first upgrade from the forge and completed very quickly thanks to the now standard FFE opening. Fast hive transitions definitely benefit from melee upgrades though. Your main units (broodlords, zerglings, ultralisks sometimes) all benefit from melee upgrades and infestors don't have a normal attack. Infested terrans need ranged upgrades however, so I think both upgrades are important.
There was a lot of back and forth throughout, I lost a hatch here and there but I thought we were fairly even most of the time.
We both opened economically, then picking up thirds, then that's where he started making units and I started defending and it went downhill from there I guess? The game was done at the fight at my 4th but I don't know what led to that being such a steam roll. rep
I have a question about ZvT. What is the 3 hatch 6 queen weak against? And is it ok to get 4 gas at 54 supply approx, if i want to transition into ling bane infestor? When should i drop a macro hatch?
My zvt guide answers all these questions. 6 queen is a solid build, it's not really too weak... hellion/banshee fast third can really push you since you have late gas, you might not have speed in time to deal with the hellions that flood in. im not sure, that's more a micro issue. drop a macro hatch when third is done. yes 4 gas at 54 is fine, although that's actually a little heavy, try 2xgas at 54 and 2x more around 60-70. you are in no rush to get lair, you especially if you are going infestor style, quick hive.
its not weak to bio... if terran is doing a semi all-innish play and not taking his third, you will need units of course. A single spine would have done a lot more for smix there than lings, and his macro was kind of weak.
+1 armor means zealots will still take 3 hits to kill lings even with a +1 weapons for the protoss, which is 99% of the time the first upgrade from the forge and completed very quickly thanks to the now standard FFE opening.
Toss will usually have +2 though, that's the problem.
I have a pretty quick question: I am a mid/high plat zerg and i have all my hatches on hotkey 3 and my individual queens on 4,5,6,7 respective of base im aware of the all queens on one hotkey but i havent gotten used to it just yet.
My main question is about the hatcheries. is it okay to have them as 3 leaving only 2 control groups for army? I usualy dont have a problem with it but occasionally i will want to have a 3rd hotkey.
My first question is if my hatcheries on 3 is a good idea and the second question is if I were to change my hotkeys what is the best way to get used to them? Meaning should i go straight to ladder/ custom games/ practice somehow etc.
EPT
