EPThttp://drop.sc/225755
I felt like I played well enough, but I was never 'ahead' and have no idea how to get ahead. My big mistake at the end was to send all my infestors to harrass his 4th which left me very vulnerable to his attack.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 327
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
http://drop.sc/225755 I felt like I played well enough, but I was never 'ahead' and have no idea how to get ahead. My big mistake at the end was to send all my infestors to harrass his 4th which left me very vulnerable to his attack. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On July 21 2012 20:58 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Terran. I have no idea. I've tried going fast upgrades ling/bling/infestor into ultra, but it seems like you can never beat a terran to 3/3 and that composition doesn't really trade efficiently. Here's a replay: http://drop.sc/225755 I felt like I played well enough, but I was never 'ahead' and have no idea how to get ahead. My big mistake at the end was to send all my infestors to harrass his 4th which left me very vulnerable to his attack. You open 14/14 which puts you behind. 15 hatch is simply better in every respect, 15 hatch can hold anything the T can throw at you. You simply do not need speed as early. 14/14 is actually worse against proxy 2 rax than 15 hatch. You make 8 zerglings which don't really do anything, you're better off making just two for scouting purposes, that's 3 more drones which is crucial at this stage! Your opponent prepares for a baneling bust, this is why he moves his rax and builds 2 bunkers, very clever play. This is the only saving grace of your opening, you scare your opponent for a little bit which delays his expansion. But at this point he's already way ahead. It is my personal belief that when analyzing a replay you find the first big mistake and fix that, ignoring everything else after that point because it is inaccurate. So the thing you should change is your opening. Learn how to 15 hatch and delay your gas. Double melee upgrades ling/infestor/ultra usually goes hand in hand with a 4-6 queen opening with super delayed gas, so you get as many minerals/larva as you can to drone incredibly hard. Then you take 2-3 gasses at the same time and get speed -> double evo -> lair. You weren't actually behind in upgrades that much all game, but you could have been ahead had your opening been smoother. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On July 21 2012 21:31 Clarity_nl wrote: You open 14/14 which puts you behind. 15 hatch is simply better in every respect, 15 hatch can hold anything the T can throw at you. You simply do not need speed as early. 14/14 is actually worse against proxy 2 rax than 15 hatch. You make 8 zerglings which don't really do anything, you're better off making just two for scouting purposes, that's 3 more drones which is crucial at this stage! Your opponent prepares for a baneling bust, this is why he moves his rax and builds 2 bunkers, very clever play. This is the only saving grace of your opening, you scare your opponent for a little bit which delays his expansion. But at this point he's already way ahead. It is my personal belief that when analyzing a replay you find the first big mistake and fix that, ignoring everything else after that point because it is inaccurate. So the thing you should change is your opening. Learn how to 15 hatch and delay your gas. Double melee upgrades ling/infestor/ultra usually goes hand in hand with a 4-6 queen opening with super delayed gas, so you get as many minerals/larva as you can to drone incredibly hard. Then you take 2-3 gasses at the same time and get speed -> double evo -> lair. You weren't actually behind in upgrades that much all game, but you could have been ahead had your opening been smoother. Ok cheers. Back to the drawing board. I was doing 15 hatch for a while, but didn't like it. I felt it gave the Terran too much freedom to 3CC and I just got plain outmacroed. That's why I switched to 14/14 to at least give me a little initiative in the match. Are you saying I'll never be able to get ahead using 14/14? | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
Question is, by opening 14/14, is there a particular timing that you can hit against a particular build, RIGHT AS your speed finishes, that can put you ahead? Because if when your speed is done, you do not use it in any circumstance, then you are better off not getting it because after all it's not doing anything for you. I do belive that you should only stop after the first BIG mistake when watching a replay, and trying to fix that one, but the opener, i do not belive it is a big mistake unless, as I said before, you get speed and do nothing with it. in that case it needs to change. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On July 21 2012 21:51 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Ok cheers. Back to the drawing board. I was doing 15 hatch for a while, but didn't like it. I felt it gave the Terran too much freedom to 3CC and I just got plain outmacroed. That's why I switched to 14/14 to at least give me a little initiative in the match. Are you saying I'll never be able to get ahead using 14/14? The best punish to 3OC play is a roach bane timing, and these hit harder if you get as much eco as you can early. You don't have to delay gas as much as I said, I only mentioned it's usually the case with the style you were describing. On July 21 2012 22:07 Asolmanx wrote: Question is, by opening 14/14, is there a particular timing that you can hit against a particular build, RIGHT AS your speed finishes, that can put you ahead? Because if when your speed is done, you do not use it in any circumstance, then you are better off not getting it because after all it's not doing anything for you. But that's the point... there is no such timing unless you do like a bad baneling all in. | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
On July 21 2012 19:00 ysnake wrote: I had like two roaches and a handful of lings, literally everything was broordlord infestor otherwise. I know the engagement was poor obviously, I'm looking for an explanation as to what I should want to be doing in that part of the game, because it was a poor engagement for me despite dodging a vortex completely and blanketing his army in fungals with 12 infestors.If you died to Stalkers, it was probably due to poor engagement, what was your ground army composition? Also, provide a replay. edit: to zergs, what do you do if you open 15 pool vs a 10 pool? I figured I could hold my hatch vs that [he went 10 pool gas actually] but I just didnt have the ling count and I lost it. Should I just cancel put up a spine crawler in my main, defend and take a big advantage due to my drone count? | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
On July 21 2012 23:00 Clarity_nl wrote: The best punish to 3OC play is a roach bane timing, and these hit harder if you get as much eco as you can early. You don't have to delay gas as much as I said, I only mentioned it's usually the case with the style you were describing. But that's the point... there is no such timing unless you do like a bad baneling all in. I don't know, i saw some koreans do a speedling timing against fast expand. They get the gas after the hatch, so i guess that if you make it before the hatch you can hit earlier and do more damage. Unfortunately i don't know much about the build, i only saw it once at ESV. Maybe that's a good timing, who knows. No need for a pro to do it to make it good, it can just work so you just do it when you play | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On July 22 2012 03:39 Asolmanx wrote: + Show Spoiler + On July 21 2012 23:00 Clarity_nl wrote: The best punish to 3OC play is a roach bane timing, and these hit harder if you get as much eco as you can early. You don't have to delay gas as much as I said, I only mentioned it's usually the case with the style you were describing. But that's the point... there is no such timing unless you do like a bad baneling all in. I don't know, i saw some koreans do a speedling timing against fast expand. They get the gas after the hatch, so i guess that if you make it before the hatch you can hit earlier and do more damage. Unfortunately i don't know much about the build, i only saw it once at ESV. Maybe that's a good timing, who knows. No need for a pro to do it to make it good, it can just work so you just do it when you play The speedling timing is a good one for taking map control and securing a very early 3rd, but it doesn't really "punish". Maybe you've noticed that almost all pro terrans no longer build their first bunker at the front of their natural - they build it behind the minerals or up against a wall or something. This is to thwart the speedling timing. An exposed bunker in front gets immediately surrounded and killed and you are forced to surrender your natural and whatever SCVs are down there, but a well-placed bunker can fend it off with minimal losses. It's not as good as it once was  you go 15 hatch drone to about 28 or so, and with the first inject coming off of both hatcheries you make about 20 zerglings and move out as soon as speed finishes, and it gives you a great timing against 1 rax expand (even if he follows up with hellion, you arrive as the first 2 hellions pop out), but a solid bunker placement kind of screws it up. You use it to establish a very early 3rd base and drone behind it. It's not really necessary after the queen buff though. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
I feel a mutalisk 'opening' in zvz (regardless of what's been going on in the early game) to always give a big edge. I also feel that at my level (diamond currently) it's a lot easier to play mutalisks than to play against them. If necessary I'll upload a replay, but my biggest problem against mutalisks is that their economy just gets better than mine. What are the decisions you need to make when you are on 2 base vs 2 base and you just scout your opponent going mutalisks? I try to get my third up as quickly as possible, but it's kind of a hit and miss to succesfully defend it (baneling ling wars -_- ). And once those mutalisks get out, I'm confined to my base and he's getting his economy up. He's got a lot of speedlings so i'm hesitant to leave my base and I've never had any success with roach busts. (I'm probably doing them wrong, his muta's always see my roaches leaving and start attacking them as soon as I leave + lings surround them and eventually kill the roaches with me barely doing any economical damage). I try to get queens, drones, spores and spread my creep. I have banelings and my queens to repel mutalisks and try to root some spores at my thirds location and then build the hatchery. That's all good and well, I get my third up, but it's in 99 percent of the cases later than his third. I get some infestors and then add hydras so I have a roach/hydra/infestor army. Then I should push out, but most of the time these guys switch to roaches. As of now, I again have the problem that it's pretty hard to determine wether he's switching to roaches or is gathering a larger pack of muta's to surprise me. Any tips on how to scout this? I'll guess I'll just have to try multiple things at once, perhaps upgrading overlord speed, sending some zlings and changelings etc. I'll come back to post a replay. Any help is appreciated! I could go mutalisks myself in zvz but I don't like that as much. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You should be spewing creep with overlords around the third if your lair is done, otherwise spreading creep with queens. It's very important you saw when he took his gas at natural, if he took 2x at nat at like 30, it probably means he's going to commit a ton to mutas. You can't really move out against mutas, that's the whole point, they take map control. Don't worry if your third is later than your opponent's... and by the way, a bit confused... If you go third before lair, it should be quite easy to hold the opponent's aggression with spores everywhere and your third is up really quickly. If you are going 2 base infestor (dont make roaches until after third since oponent isn't making them), it should just be very very easy to hold the mutas because you made infestors come out the same time the mutas come out. I'd say don't worry about adding hydras until you drone up your 3 bases enough. You should have a huge tech advantage over the opponent if you defended well that you should do reasonable damage, at least enough to deny his fourth while taking yours and getting hive for 3/3 before him. You should have an overseer tucked in a corner near his base to make changelings to see if he threw down a roach warren yet, or just send 2 speedlings toward his base to see if he has roaches yet. Overlord speed is not a bad idea either. Here's a game I played recently where I defend mutas going 2 base infestor, but if you go third before lair it's also quite easy to deal with doing the same thing (just with more queens, less gas, more spores). http://drop.sc/225652 | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/14126/showtime_vs_Mikusevic I've uploaded the replay here. I've actually watched the replay 2 times now and I have so many glaring errors I was afraid to post it. But a second opinion would be greatly appreciated. I had some terrible macro moments (supply block, inject larvae etc), but the worst (strategic?) mistakes imo were: 1)letting my third get cancel by those speedlings while my banelings were idling at my natural 2) losing 4 queens to surprise speedlings at the ramp of my natural. I panicked. I should have remorphed some banelings but if I had just taken my units with them, I wouldn't have lost those queens. My creepspread should have been better as well. 3) Forgetting my upgrades. I was floating a lot of money... 4) Should have grabbed fourth earlier. 5) Should have scouted better. 6) My attack failed astronomically And when he was threatening me with tons of speedlings in the early game I should have put those overlords in front of my natural a lot sooner, so I could see what he was doing. There were actual times I was ahead in supply and army and could have pushed him, but I was too scared to move out. Hydra's are also so slow off creep. After my hydras popped, If I had macro'd well from that point on, I could have won. If I had pushed at that time, I might have done some serious damage to him. PS: I'm showtime. Edit: I check out your replay. You played well and I learned quite a few things, but I can't help but wonder how the game would have went if red your opponent had made a baneling nest himself. Your ling pressure on his third was vital to delay his mutalisks from killing your third. If he had some banelings, the game could have gone quite different? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Edit: I check out your replay. You played well and I learned quite a few things, but I can't help but wonder how the game would have went if red your opponent had made a baneling nest himself. Your ling pressure on his third was vital to delay his mutalisks from killing your third. If he had some banelings, the game could have gone quite different? The same thing would have happened. If you noticed, my zerglings were upgraded. unupgraded banelings actually don't do shit against 1/1 lings, much less lings with 2/2. Obviously though, not everyone gets 1/1 upgrades, i was playing a particular style that gets upgraded, so what would have happened is I would have micro'd against the banes, and the mutas would still be forced back. I may not kill his third, but I would have bought plenty of time for my third to not die as queens, infestors, and spores go online there. He committed a ton to mutas, and when he failed to do damage with them he basically lost the game. My goal was never to kill his third, I just happened to capitalize on a bad opponent. In a normal game though, those lings would just force the mutas back while I put spores and queens around my bases to buy time (doing this with roaches is a bad idea, and just lik in zvp, you want to go more lings than roaches against air). The ling pressure just delayed his mutas from pressuring my third, not killing it. As timings works out, he HAS to turn around or risk losing his third just as much as I lose mine - he simply won't have more lings than I will because he made all those mutas. It's a standard technique. But if he had banes he still would have had to turn around against that many lings. | ||
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Monsyphon
Canada190 Posts
If so, what do I do once I hit 100 gas, in other words, what should my next "gas thing" be, upgrades, lair? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Hatch first, 15h/15p/17g, 10 drone scout (14/14, 15p/15h/17g, whatever) Speed first (unless opponent doesn't expand, in which case you go banelings, it will be obvious because he has no drone at the bottom of the ramp like when you start the queens) 2x queens first reactionary lings to meet the lings opponent makes Speed first, remove 1 drone from gas, get banelings. Removing 2 drones from gas results in your baneling nest being late that you might die. By having 2 guys in gas, you can rely solely on the banelings being in time against aggression from expand, even if they make only lings after pool and just throw down a hatch. Afterwards, just keep the 2 drones in gas. You might need to morph 8 banes, so you need a little bit of gas to be safe. Morph lair at 40+ for mutas, 50+ for infestor play, +1 from evo at 40+ if you go ~50 third before lair, roach warren 55+ lair. You always need a little gas in case for banelings in zvz. It'll smooth out by delaying your gases if you have 200+, although with 2 drones in gas it should work out well that you won't go over 300 as you'll get evos or lair before that occurs. | ||
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maracuja123
Brazil419 Posts
lets say its a early base trade ZXZ , you got a spine and lings in the opponent`s base and kills every stucture, same goes for him. how do you best use the spine without losing its health when there`s no creep? | ||
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AlmightyRaiden
Mexico59 Posts
Appreciate advice as the other match ups i tend to win a lot and toss is keeping me way behind. Thanks! | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 22 2012 10:27 maracuja123 wrote: when u unroot spine or spore does it immediately start losing health off creep? lets say its a early base trade ZXZ , you got a spine and lings in the opponent`s base and kills every stucture, same goes for him. how do you best use the spine without losing its health when there`s no creep? Uproot it and root it somewhere else? On July 22 2012 10:59 AlmightyRaiden wrote: Hi, Plat Zerg here recently demoted to gold as i can't win a single match vs Toss!? try max roach, mutas etc but either lose to strong 2 base timings or i lose anyways later, only composition i'm confident against is colossus (using corruptors) but anything else with lots of immortals i tend to die no matter what. Appreciate advice as the other match ups i tend to win a lot and toss is keeping me way behind. Thanks! Provide replays so that the players can comment on your gameplay, gameplan, decisions etc. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
when u unroot spine or spore does it immediately start losing health off creep? lets say its a early base trade ZXZ , you got a spine and lings in the opponent`s base and kills every stucture, same goes for him. how do you best use the spine without losing its health when there`s no creep? As my anti-6 pool guide says, no, an uprooted spine/spore does not lose health off creep. That's why spines/spores are great in base trade scenarios - it's essentially zerg's floating rax. There's actually a couple replays in my guide showing specifically this. This is why I recommend when someone does a 6/7/8 pool with every drone pulled, that you base trade, AND you drone scout, and with that drone scout, make a spine, as your last building, instead of an extractor out on the map, because it can be mobile so you can take it with your army, slowly, back to their base and focus their spine down. It's also why I say in order to always beat drone all-ins, even against someone with superior micro and you making blunders, you should drone scout. You don't have to, but it makes it a lot easier to have a walking spine than an extractor, as well you can force a stalemate by not killing his hatch, keeping the spine on creep, and just forcing the game to end as he can't kill you and you can't kill him (as opposed if you make an extractor, in which case he'll just kill you, or he can force the stalemate instead of you forcing it). | ||
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
What does their third gas mean? What do the timings signal? What does their fourth gas mean? What do the timings signal? I know a fast 4 gas is supposed to be high tech - but I heard that it is also for immortal sentry all-in? I keep finding bits of information scattered throughout the interwebs. Can someone just give me a quick rundown of what gas timings to look for, and what they mean? Thank a million -Andy | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It's about combining the gas count, with your overlord sac into his main, to paint a picture. ie 2x gas taken quickly and empty base, double stargate, with lots of gateways, blink, maybe DTs. 3 gas, especially late third gas like 6:00 3rd gas, is usually single stargate, could be anything, shouldnt really make you panic as much. zero gas, basically a gateway all-in. combine this with maybe little tips you get like chronos on the nexus (not a gateway all-in like 6/7/8 gate), chronos on cybercore or forge, and you can really figure out what's up. also, some specifics exist like 2xgas same time, usually 6:00-6:15, is almost always immortal/sentry all-in, and late 3rd gas is stargate, etc. | ||
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