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Hello! :D
I've been losing alot lately on ladder. Diamond Zerg. 4 wins 15 loses. Idk whats going on, it was much easier when i was in platnum and now im just getting absolutely destroyed. Is there something wrong with my mechanics? If so how do i learn how to time my injects 40 seconds seems so fast yet so long I want to get the feel of it like playing a piano or a guitar. Also, how do i know when and what time to build up units or buildings so i can counter what the enemy produces? It's been very tough and giving me a huge headache. I used to win, but now im losing. What just happened?  my MMR dropped so low that sometimes i face golds...win against them easily tho.
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Diamond, platinum, it doesn't matter. It's just a badge... it's all about your MMR. There is no "i got to diamond and suddenly started losing everything!". If you go on a large win streak (which you probably did a few days ago before you got promoted), you will likely go on a lose streak as the system places you against much higher people.
MMR is continuous, so if you just lose just when you got to diamond, it's just a lose streak for just a shitty run of luck, and as well probably the system balancing out a win streak of yours.
The system also places you against wildly varying people all the time too. Gold really is not very far from Diamond in terms of MMR (it's smaller than the distance between masters and diamond, and much smaller than low and high masters).
As for your general question, try to follow some semblance of a build, and have similar supplies to pros when playing the game. You will probably be 20 supply behind, but as long as you follow a similar build that's fine, something you should learn into diamond. But really the answers to your question, if I knew that I'd be in DRG's shoes.
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On July 21 2012 14:01 Belial88 wrote:
I haven't played any games where the ridge on the third was an issue, and if anything, it's more helpful to Zerg than not (great for mutas to swoop in imo). By the time you take your third you should have overlords all around it, and there's great airspace around your third, one of the best map features imo, the way the map sort of curves by the third so you can have overlords all around it. The third is close so it's easy to defend for zerg, but it's super wide open so it's hard for terran or toss. It's easier to defend for zerg than on cloud kingdom or entombed, yet it's harder for t/p to defend on those same maps.
What chokeable center? It also has routes to flank that are perfect. And on left/right, there is no choke like that, and just don't engage there, right before and after the center, is a huge open area, especialyl out front of your base. It's great
Antiga is a terrible map, are you kidding? The gold, yea, that's somewhat zerg favored, but on close spawns it's not practical at all, nor is it practical in zvt or zvz. The siege tank/blink abuse happened to me all the time when I played, maybe that's just different experiences, I don't know how that doesn't happen to you every game. Terran takes their third, which is right next to your main, or you take your third next to Terran's main, and they put a bunch of turrets up and siege tanks there and then start dropping into your third. Then close spawns, just the rush distance being smaller than steppes of war is a huge pain in the ass. warp gate all-ins are impossible to deal with. And a fourth is impossible to get too.
would much rather play vortex valley than antiga. Especially ladder antiga.
Eh. Probably still gonna veto ridge because its already halfway through the season and I'm not too familiar with it. Also doesn't seem like its used in many tournaments (if any).
I dunno... I play on NA but I haven't had any seige abuse since the beginning of Antiga's genesis, so Idk. Different play styles I guess, I don't really mind antiga that much.
On July 22 2012 02:26 whatevername wrote:
edit: to zergs, what do you do if you open 15 pool vs a 10 pool? I figured I could hold my hatch vs that [he went 10 pool gas actually] but I just didnt have the ling count and I lost it. Should I just cancel put up a spine crawler in my main, defend and take a big advantage due to my drone count?
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I think you mean 15 hatch vs 10 pool? 10 pool is a build order advantage against 15 hatch and you will be ahead if you can cancel the hatch and defend well. But you must cancel the hatch once you scout his build. Against a 10 pool gas you need to have a spine up to snipe banelings, as well as a queen if possible. You won't need to mine gas and you'll need to try to defend against banelings without gas (spines, queens, slow lings)
If you actually mean a 15 pool (pool first), you have a build order advantage so thats not a problem. Lings will be up before his arrive, so I think you mean 15 hatch :p
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^ You cannot hold a proper 10 pool (10 pool bane or 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled, single spine). It's a straight up build order loss. Technically, if you were to go, say, 17 pool first, you'd straight up lose to 10 pool too.
All you can hope for is the opponent is dumb enough not to send any drones (just constantly mineral walk and since he's dumb enough to not send drones he's probably dumb enough to let you get a surround) or all of his drones (just base trade, put a spine in his base with scouting worker, if you didnt scout it may be tough if you have to make extractor somewhere instead of spine in his base), or speedlings (nestea made this mistake once against drg, and went on to lose the game, never again did he do it - but you'll come out slightly behind if you micro well and just sacrifice one of the hatches and throw down spines).
That's why a lot players now either 10 drone scout hatch first (you see right as your drone gets to bottom to decide whether to plant hatch, or you should panic and plant pool) or 15p/15h. Just the existence of these 2 strategies also made 10 pool in general a lot weaker.
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Hey guys I'm still looking for answers to two unrelated questions:
1. Why do people go mutas on Ohana a lot ZvT and ZvP? The map doesn't seem built for it with no open space behind the mains etc.
2. What fourth do people take on Cloud Kingdom.... let's pick ZvT to make it more exact.
I've been told most take the lowground 4th right next to your third, but I've always preferred the corner expansion a bit farther away. Is this abusable by my T opponent? I generally spine it up quite heavily.
Maybe the reason I'm not comfortable with taking the lowground is because my creepspread isn't the greatest so sometimes I won't have it back there...
Thanks in advance!
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^
1. Mutas are still good units, and it's not the worst map, given how open it is. Mutas are usually done to force the opponent not to move out, so even if the map isn't that open, if he moves out, mutas move in for the base and it doesnt matter how little open space there is, they just go around your army, base trade, win. 8-15 mutas into fast hive, double upgrades, is the standard zvt right now too. And mutas are always good if you have a lead, they prevent stupid losses to deathballs and force lots of mistakes in the opponent as you stress them out and destroy them if they try to cut corners. I go mutas always in ZvT, and in ZvP if the opponent is doing an immortal/sentry all-in, or massing shit on 2 base, mutas are great because I'm not using them to harass, I'm using them to base trade. As long as people lose games against mutas, people will use them.
2. The forward one. Sucks, but it's closer to your army, and you have map control, and it's the fifth that's usually the problem, whcih either one is fine for taking. Corner expo is a little far in terms of dealing with drops or having creep out to.
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On July 22 2012 18:41 Belial88 wrote:
^
1. Mutas are still good units, and it's not the worst map, given how open it is. Mutas are usually done to force the opponent not to move out, so even if the map isn't that open, if he moves out, mutas move in for the base and it doesnt matter how little open space there is, they just go around your army, base trade, win. 8-15 mutas into fast hive, double upgrades, is the standard zvt right now too. And mutas are always good if you have a lead, they prevent stupid losses to deathballs and force lots of mistakes in the opponent as you stress them out and destroy them if they try to cut corners. I go mutas always in ZvT, and in ZvP if the opponent is doing an immortal/sentry all-in, or massing shit on 2 base, mutas are great because I'm not using them to harass, I'm using them to base trade. As long as people lose games against mutas, people will use them.
2. The forward one. Sucks, but it's closer to your army, and you have map control, and it's the fifth that's usually the problem, whcih either one is fine for taking. Corner expo is a little far in terms of dealing with drops or having creep out to.
That's why I spine it up though? Usually getting my fourth cues me to get some static defense at all my bases so I just focus most of it on my 4th.
The forward one just seems so damn vulnerable especially with the highground, if terran gets there I have a real hard time not losing that base.
Maybe it is a map control issue but I usually give it up the moment terran pushes out and am used to engaging his army at the last possible second, which makes the corner expansion better for me I THINK since there is a giant open area leading up to my 4th.
I hope I don't argue for the sake of arguing, clearly you are right since everyone takes that 4th, but I fail to see the reasoning other than "it's the closest one"... lings are pretty fast.
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eh i think a lot of zergs double expand when it comes to their fourth on that map too. I think that zergs in general get creep much quicker to that fourth than the other ones, so personally that's why I comfortable with it. I'd much rather fight on creep, and by the time I take that base I usually have creep over and up that ledge, especially when I got a queen down there injecting. I just don't like that pocket expansion too much, it's in the corner, it's far away, it's a huge choke, and although the area in front is open, the area leading up to it is on the low ground and by chokes, so it's not that great to engage (although, except for being on the low ground, the area at the fourth is much easier to engage with, especially with creep and coming from the side). I usually double expand for the 5th and 6th, and which point I literally put 10+ spines at each of them because being bullied back and forth due to drops, et cetera, really sucks.
I feel a flaw in zerg is that it's very hard to split your army up when it comes to being defensive, if terran does a triple drop or something or sends a hit squad, you really gotta bring your entire army or else it's a lost base, which just sucks if terran does like 2 double drops or sends a double drop and then his army to the other one.
i dont think there's a right or wrong answer here though. I mean I just take that fourth due to creep basically, and at that time in the game I'm not worried about pressure, I would prefer just a more convenient location so i can have a queen there to both inject and aggressively spread creep with excess energy, and have my bases less spread out so I can deal with drops and such. It's the fifth base that's usually the point of contention for zerg.
I just played a zvz where even though the opponent was way ahead of me, and had wayyy more ultras, he 1a'd his entire army to get rid of a burrowed zergling on ohana that at that 5th base tucked next to your main, so I sent my entire army to 4th to abuse him being of position, spammed IT and FG'd his drones, and then returned to my own 4th in time (as he went for it seeing me attack his 4th) to prevent him from killing it (a few spines and ultras bought time).
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On July 22 2012 18:11 Belial88 wrote:
^ You cannot hold a proper 10 pool (10 pool bane or 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled, single spine). It's a straight up build order loss. Technically, if you were to go, say, 17 pool first, you'd straight up lose to 10 pool too.
All you can hope for is the opponent is dumb enough not to send any drones (just constantly mineral walk and since he's dumb enough to not send drones he's probably dumb enough to let you get a surround) or all of his drones (just base trade, put a spine in his base with scouting worker, if you didnt scout it may be tough if you have to make extractor somewhere instead of spine in his base), or speedlings (nestea made this mistake once against drg, and went on to lose the game, never again did he do it - but you'll come out slightly behind if you micro well and just sacrifice one of the hatches and throw down spines).
That's why a lot players now either 10 drone scout hatch first (you see right as your drone gets to bottom to decide whether to plant hatch, or you should panic and plant pool) or 15p/15h. Just the existence of these 2 strategies also made 10 pool in general a lot weaker.
You can hold a "proper" 10 pool with 15 hatch. Even if they send drones and build spines. Stop saying it's impossible. The solution is not base trading.
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On July 22 2012 22:17 Catgroove wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 18:11 Belial88 wrote:
^ You cannot hold a proper 10 pool (10 pool bane or 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled, single spine). It's a straight up build order loss. Technically, if you were to go, say, 17 pool first, you'd straight up lose to 10 pool too.
All you can hope for is the opponent is dumb enough not to send any drones (just constantly mineral walk and since he's dumb enough to not send drones he's probably dumb enough to let you get a surround) or all of his drones (just base trade, put a spine in his base with scouting worker, if you didnt scout it may be tough if you have to make extractor somewhere instead of spine in his base), or speedlings (nestea made this mistake once against drg, and went on to lose the game, never again did he do it - but you'll come out slightly behind if you micro well and just sacrifice one of the hatches and throw down spines).
That's why a lot players now either 10 drone scout hatch first (you see right as your drone gets to bottom to decide whether to plant hatch, or you should panic and plant pool) or 15p/15h. Just the existence of these 2 strategies also made 10 pool in general a lot weaker. You can hold a "proper" 10 pool with 15 hatch. Even if they send drones and build spines. Stop saying it's impossible. The solution is not base trading.
How?
I'm afraid to go 15 hatch in zvz. I always go 14 pool -> 15 hatch or extractor depending on what my opponent is doing.
Especially on 4 player maps. Is it actually possible for your opponent to spawn at any of the three other locations on shakura's for example? Because I've always been scouting every position but I haven't had any opponent at the same side of the map ever lol.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 22 2012 23:13 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 22:17 Catgroove wrote:On July 22 2012 18:11 Belial88 wrote:
^ You cannot hold a proper 10 pool (10 pool bane or 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled, single spine). It's a straight up build order loss. Technically, if you were to go, say, 17 pool first, you'd straight up lose to 10 pool too.
All you can hope for is the opponent is dumb enough not to send any drones (just constantly mineral walk and since he's dumb enough to not send drones he's probably dumb enough to let you get a surround) or all of his drones (just base trade, put a spine in his base with scouting worker, if you didnt scout it may be tough if you have to make extractor somewhere instead of spine in his base), or speedlings (nestea made this mistake once against drg, and went on to lose the game, never again did he do it - but you'll come out slightly behind if you micro well and just sacrifice one of the hatches and throw down spines).
That's why a lot players now either 10 drone scout hatch first (you see right as your drone gets to bottom to decide whether to plant hatch, or you should panic and plant pool) or 15p/15h. Just the existence of these 2 strategies also made 10 pool in general a lot weaker. You can hold a "proper" 10 pool with 15 hatch. Even if they send drones and build spines. Stop saying it's impossible. The solution is not base trading. How? I'm afraid to go 15 hatch in zvz. I always go 14 pool -> 15 hatch or extractor depending on what my opponent is doing. Especially on 4 player maps. Is it actually possible for your opponent to spawn at any of the three other locations on shakura's for example? Because I've always been scouting every position but I haven't had any opponent at the same side of the map ever lol.
Condemned Ridge - they can spawn wherever.
Entombed Valley - they can spawn wherever. (not too sure about this one, as I have it vetoed)
Shakuras - close-air or cross spawn
Tal'Darim - close air or cross spawn (not too sure, same as for entombed)
Antiga Shipyard - they can spawn wherever
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Imagine shakuras close positions oh god..... It's The Shattered Temple all over again.
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On July 22 2012 18:11 Belial88 wrote:
^ You cannot hold a proper 10 pool (10 pool bane or 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled, single spine). It's a straight up build order loss. Technically, if you were to go, say, 17 pool first, you'd straight up lose to 10 pool too.
All you can hope for is the opponent is dumb enough not to send any drones (just constantly mineral walk and since he's dumb enough to not send drones he's probably dumb enough to let you get a surround) or all of his drones (just base trade, put a spine in his base with scouting worker, if you didnt scout it may be tough if you have to make extractor somewhere instead of spine in his base), or speedlings (nestea made this mistake once against drg, and went on to lose the game, never again did he do it - but you'll come out slightly behind if you micro well and just sacrifice one of the hatches and throw down spines).
That's why a lot players now either 10 drone scout hatch first (you see right as your drone gets to bottom to decide whether to plant hatch, or you should panic and plant pool) or 15p/15h. Just the existence of these 2 strategies also made 10 pool in general a lot weaker.
Maybe at a lower level? Top tier play 15 hatch is the superior build and you can actually hold 10 pool even if you don't scout (see Jaedong vs Soulkey Ace Match in Proleague). Depending on map size you can even have lings out before spines are up. But yeah I agree with you mostly. 15p > 10p > 15 hatch > 15p. Yay ZvZ.
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Is it possible to hold a third against that +1 roach all in that happens a lot in zvz with roaches of my own, or should I just squeeze out a few more drones and expand when he does?
Whats the correct response to that +1 1 gate zealot pressure thing into 4 gate?
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Okay, so now my ZvZ is great, but now my ZvT/P has completely died.
In fact, I'm only winning in ZvT because my opponents keep disconnecting o.o
How does one counter those contain builds like -> Hellion (force roaches) -> Marauder Tank? or Bunker -> Hellion contain (While opponent expands a million times) -> Thor push?
What about Thor-Hellion-Banshee-Raven?
If my opponent decides to sit back and macro, how do I break him? It was easy before with a ling-bling-muta bust but now it's just confusing.
In addition, how do I kill a Protoss that just makes more bases and defends them with a million immortals and colossus?
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No matter what I do I cannot survive midgame in ZvP. I always try to get Infestor/Blord but I almost always die to big robo pushes off 3 bases and sometimes even right when he gets a fourth off. I go Roach/Ling with Infestors with Spire. I watch Stephano and he always crushes these pushes yet I can never engage properly. Every single game my lings are held back by forcefields while my roaches do nothing and my Infestors slowly die. At most I can kill the Colossus with the corrupters eventually, but my entire ground army has died.
At least on some maps (Shakuras), I have help with a spine wall covering all 4 bases. But on maps like on Antiga that's impossible.
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On July 22 2012 23:41 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 23:13 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 22 2012 22:17 Catgroove wrote:On July 22 2012 18:11 Belial88 wrote:
^ You cannot hold a proper 10 pool (10 pool bane or 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled, single spine). It's a straight up build order loss. Technically, if you were to go, say, 17 pool first, you'd straight up lose to 10 pool too.
All you can hope for is the opponent is dumb enough not to send any drones (just constantly mineral walk and since he's dumb enough to not send drones he's probably dumb enough to let you get a surround) or all of his drones (just base trade, put a spine in his base with scouting worker, if you didnt scout it may be tough if you have to make extractor somewhere instead of spine in his base), or speedlings (nestea made this mistake once against drg, and went on to lose the game, never again did he do it - but you'll come out slightly behind if you micro well and just sacrifice one of the hatches and throw down spines).
That's why a lot players now either 10 drone scout hatch first (you see right as your drone gets to bottom to decide whether to plant hatch, or you should panic and plant pool) or 15p/15h. Just the existence of these 2 strategies also made 10 pool in general a lot weaker. You can hold a "proper" 10 pool with 15 hatch. Even if they send drones and build spines. Stop saying it's impossible. The solution is not base trading. How? I'm afraid to go 15 hatch in zvz. I always go 14 pool -> 15 hatch or extractor depending on what my opponent is doing. Especially on 4 player maps. Is it actually possible for your opponent to spawn at any of the three other locations on shakura's for example? Because I've always been scouting every position but I haven't had any opponent at the same side of the map ever lol. Condemned Ridge - they can spawn wherever. Entombed Valley - they can spawn wherever. (not too sure about this one, as I have it vetoed) Shakuras - close-air or cross spawn Tal'Darim - close air or cross spawn (not too sure, same as for entombed) Antiga Shipyard - they can spawn wherever
Veto Condemned, Entombed and Tal'Darim.
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On July 23 2012 03:25 BongSniper69 wrote:
No matter what I do I cannot survive midgame in ZvP. I always try to get Infestor/Blord but I almost always die to big robo pushes off 3 bases and sometimes even right when he gets a fourth off. I go Roach/Ling with Infestors with Spire. I watch Stephano and he always crushes these pushes yet I can never engage properly. Every single game my lings are held back by forcefields while my roaches do nothing and my Infestors slowly die. At most I can kill the Colossus with the corrupters eventually, but my entire ground army has died.
At least on some maps (Shakuras), I have help with a spine wall covering all 4 bases. But on maps like on Antiga that's impossible.
http://drop.sc/226188
The reason I quote the guy above is because I'm having the exact same problem. In the above replay, the guy does a 3 base push that I know for sure is coming, I just don't know when. I made corrupters this time for the colossus but, in a previous game, had a ton of spines instead. Either way, neither did nothing to prevent my demise. I'm at a loss as to what exactly is the problem, here, but my main guess is my unit composition. Lings blow balls vs everything en masse.
I'm getting the feeling that I can't afford to tech to broods, but I can afford to get extremely close, to the point that I can get hive and corrupters, then deal with the push with a maxed out roach/infestor army and reinforce with lings, then go broods. That's just a theory, but I haven't tried it.
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Is it possible to hold a third against that +1 roach all in that happens a lot in zvz with roaches of my own, or should I just squeeze out a few more drones and expand when he does?
Whats the correct response to that +1 1 gate zealot pressure thing into 4 gate?
No, a roach/ling all-in is kind of like zerg's 4 gate. You can't hold a 4 gate with a third taken either. You should hold it with lings 4+ spines, because you aren't going to have more roaches from someone who spent the last 5 minutes making only roaches, and if you did make roaches that wouldn't make sense because you couldn't capitalize on the situation. You want to not have to make as many units as the opponent. Then, win with a huge tech advantage with 2 base lair mutas or speed roaches or whatever.
Maybe at a lower level? Top tier play 15 hatch is the superior build and you can actually hold 10 pool even if you don't scout (see Jaedong vs Soulkey Ace Match in Proleague). Depending on map size you can even have lings out before spines are up. But yeah I agree with you mostly. 15p > 10p > 15 hatch > 15p. Yay ZvZ.
You can hold a "proper" 10 pool with 15 hatch. Even if they send drones and build spines. Stop saying it's impossible. The solution is not base trading.
No one in pro play at GOM or MLG has come close to holding a 10 pool baneling or 10 pool 8 of 12 drones pulled single spine when going hatch first.
It's impossible. A lot of people, like casters, keep insisting it's possible to survive, but it's because some people do bad variations of 10 pool. You cannot hold a check style 10 pool bane or nestea's 10 pool 8/12 drone single spine.
If you can link that game, I'd love to see it.
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Alright, how do I deal with the +1 4 gate zealot pressure? I begin making roaches around 8:00 but like 6 zealots can hit my base by 8:30, they just sniped my hatch and bolted. Was that just a failure in my roach production or am I meant to hold it off with lings [???]
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EPT
