EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 329
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Rk0
Netherlands224 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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whatevername
471 Posts
 On July 23 2012 05:14 whatevername wrote: Alright, how do I deal with the +1 4 gate zealot pressure? I begin making roaches around 8:00 but like 6 zealots can hit my base by 8:30, they just sniped my hatch and bolted. Was that just a failure in my roach production or am I meant to hold it off with lings [???] | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
The roach warren finishing at 8 minutes lets you make 4-7 roaches at your 3rd base and they spawn in time to chase away his pressure. It's important to have a larva inject finishing at your 3rd base around this time (and also overlord space available) so that you can make the roaches if you need them. If you have a few lings running around, you can try to slow him down by pulling him back to defend his pylon, but you should not need to stall for long at all. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 23 2012 03:20 BurgherSC wrote: Okay, so now my ZvZ is great, but now my ZvT/P has completely died. In fact, I'm only winning in ZvT because my opponents keep disconnecting o.o How does one counter those contain builds like -> Hellion (force roaches) -> Marauder Tank? or Bunker -> Hellion contain (While opponent expands a million times) -> Thor push? What about Thor-Hellion-Banshee-Raven? If my opponent decides to sit back and macro, how do I break him? It was easy before with a ling-bling-muta bust but now it's just confusing. In addition, how do I kill a Protoss that just makes more bases and defends them with a million immortals and colossus? Replays? I just want to check that you're not missing something fundamental, often my frustrating ZvT "how do I beat this OP comp" moments turn out to be "oh I started missing injects because I freaked out" and other such nonsense. Your ZvT descriptions make it sound like you have serious issues droning up because you overreact to the hellions, which results in the followup killing you. While I'd need to see a replay to say for sure, I'd recommend that make sure you just make a few roaches to defend vs hellions, or make extra queens, but maximize drone production and take a third ASAP. Thor-hellion-banshee-raven sounds like he got away from you, he either went super greedy and you didn't punish him at low thor numbers, or did a lot of damage to you and just built up a deathball for the kill. BL-infestor still does decently and may be your best bet (though I don't have much personal experience against that comp), just be aware that thors can kill BLs fairly well if there's a lot of them with hellion support. Toss turtling with immortal and colo? Sounds like it's time for mutas. If you get a big ball of mutas, cannons no longer work against them just because the mutas become so dense, in terms of power applied in a certain area, and cannons take up enough space that at 20+ mutas with +1 atk, they need templar and storm, which take awhile to get if they've sunk so much into double robo and colossi. So yeah if they turtle and go really heavy robo, expand and take the gases, and pour everything into mutas. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
You should be scouting his main with a sacrificial overlord so you can see this. You should be able to get roaches out in time and easily hold off his pressure as long as you make the roaches at your third and you don't supply block yourself. Scouting this makes it even easier because you can just make your roaches a little bit earlier or look for hidden pylons and try to deny them while waiting for roaches. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 22 2012 18:29 Clarity_nl wrote: Hey guys I'm still looking for answers to two unrelated questions: 1. Why do people go mutas on Ohana a lot ZvT and ZvP? The map doesn't seem built for it with no open space behind the mains etc. 2. What fourth do people take on Cloud Kingdom.... let's pick ZvT to make it more exact. I've been told most take the lowground 4th right next to your third, but I've always preferred the corner expansion a bit farther away. Is this abusable by my T opponent? I generally spine it up quite heavily. Maybe the reason I'm not comfortable with taking the lowground is because my creepspread isn't the greatest so sometimes I won't have it back there... Thanks in advance! 1) Not too qualified for this and belial gave you a solid answer. 2) ZvT on Cloud, always always take the low-ground fourth in front of your third, because BLs cannot defend the far fourth well because of the distance, and because the open ground and wide ramp invites marines to snipe random BLs. The low-ground fourth makes it easy for a small spine wall and a few infestors to deter those snipe attempts, because there's only one real entrance (he can't run all the way around to your third, because then you cut him off with BLs and those same infestors waddle a few steps to shut down that ramp too. Basically, the low-ground fourth has one small ground entrance, the far fourth is basically open ground. On top of that, the far fourth can be cut off by marine-tank, which means that any units that pop from the fourth will die until you remove that army, and you won't want to attack into it because it will be sieged. So if you take the far fourth because you see him floating out his third, and he pushes out to that spot, you're losing maybe 20% of your production. Whereas the low-ground fourth, units that spawn can run back to your third. I'd also suggest that the far fourth is actually significantly farther away than the distance suggests, because your army is always towards the center of the map in ZvT on Cloud (versus at your third). So if a drop hits and you send off 20 lings to stop it, the lings often make it to the low-ground fourth before the marines are all dropped, which sometimes forces a pickup. Whereas the extra 5 seconds it takes to get to the far base means the marines have almost certainly stimmed and the medivac is already healing them up by the time you get there. Just a lot of minor problems with the far base, and spines only really help with the drop issue. I'd say that spining the far base when you take it as your fifth is standard, so definitely spine it pretty well, regardless of whether it's your fourth or your fifth. For ZvP I'd say it's the same kind of deal (BLs issue especially), it's tough to get a clean blink (with the intention of sniping BLs) through the low-ground fourth unless the stalkers approach from the ramp. Zealot attacks on the far base can give you similar problems, as can dts (infestors too far to run back for fungal, need to have preemptive spore). And attacking into sentries is only slightly better than attacking into sieged tanks. | ||
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BongSniper69
27 Posts
Then when a third is taken I get all my gases as quickly as I can and drone hard, but a big ball comes and I die no matter what. It comes at close to 15 minutes, usually my composition is maxed with like 8 infestors, a lot of lings and roaches, with some corrupters. I have around 80 drones. My army just melts away instantly and my lings can never engage. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On July 23 2012 07:56 BongSniper69 wrote: At this point ZvP is impossible for me. I go roachling Stephano style, I either lose to an all-in or to a timing attack. Facing Immortal/Sentry I stop droning at around 60, and just make a shitload of lings and roaches, I engage on creep in an open area. I never have enough units at this point even if all I do is drone until 60 then non-stop units. He pushes back my army and gets into a choke at the third and I'm dead. For this isn't there a way to open mutas and go for a base race? I would try that if I knew how to do it. Then when a third is taken I get all my gases as quickly as I can and drone hard, but a big ball comes and I die no matter what. It comes at close to 15 minutes, usually my composition is maxed with like 8 infestors, a lot of lings and roaches, with some corrupters. I have around 80 drones. My army just melts away instantly and my lings can never engage. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354223 That thread has a lot of useful information concerning how to beat 3 base pushes. Personally, I'm still getting accustomed to make a crap ton of drones while taking a 4th and a 5th ('cause you can totally do that if they get a 3rd) and then fending off a 3 base push. | ||
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GuardianEU
Netherlands488 Posts
I've been trying to find a good gas timing, baneling nest timing and third timing when I'm going muta/ling/bling in zvt. the build I usually do is: 15 hatch 16 pool 15 gas at 100 gas start speed and take 2 drones off gas. build 4 queens total and 4 lings to get the xel naga towers and monitor their ramp. when I've reached minimal saturation I build 3 gasses and put 2 drones back on gas on my first one. first 100 gas is lair, when I start lair I build 2 evo chamber and upgrade melee and carapace when they're done. build lings to secure a third etcetcetc. are there any good strategies around that center around the ling bling muta style and is there a better way to time my baneling nest and more importantly, my third? thanks in advance! | ||
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Asarha
France71 Posts
I have to face a Zerg opponents who seems to make all-in/cheese in every ZvZ game. ('cause of lack of macro) So, what's the best & safest opening who'll not make me far behind if he didn't cheese ? I was thinking 14/14, into 17hatch, baneling nest before speedling, is it right ? Any tips against this kind of player? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Get speed first. baneling nest first if the opponent doesnt expand (no drone to take expo by time you start queens basically, he should be expanding like right after you take the queens if he isn't all-inning 100%). Then at 26, get a spine and baneling nest. You can pull 1 drone off gas after speed to be greedier, but really, i'd recommend you keep all 3 in gas and get bane nest asap until you figure shit out, since at the lower levels that 1 drone difference isn't that huge and it's better to be safe and macro well. Against 14/14, or anything really, build in this order: 2xqueens asap first Reactionary lings (ie the 2 overlords you have by his natural and in front of his base, meet his ling count, put them on ramp in a concave to win even ling battles or run away until queens pop) Spine in main, re-root to natural Speed, bane nest You should have banelings in time to stop any sort of mass ling or ling/bane. Once you get better, you can pull 1-2 drones off gas after speed, you can just have 2-4 lings at home hotkeyed, ready to morph into banes if you see him move out with a bunch of lings, and rely on queen micro and blocking the ramp with the queens and reaction time to morph the banes before he arrives. Ling/bane aggression is really all-in and kind of died out. No one uses 14/14 ling/bane all-in anymore at high level play because it simply doesn't work against hatch first (although in the lower levels it's very strong because people dont know how to play both safely and greedily). As long as you have that baneling nest, you are safe. | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
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Shousan
Mexico92 Posts
I also tried a 6 queen opener but if the terran just doesn't go for that many hellions or banshees it feels that the bio will just crush my bases, I'm not very good at this opening since I rarely do it, but don't know if I'm dealing with this the right way or just try to defend this opening with 4 queens and making more as I see fit. Terran seems to be just sending waves of this while expanding and it is difficult to really delay expos early on due to the hellions. I go for mutas-banes-speedlings, and this is against master players. Don't have any reps here but would love to hear how you deal with this effectively. | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
What's your favorite inject style? I feel I need to just pick one and do it over and over against the CPU until it's second nature. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
To add on to what other posters have already said, a 6:00 double gas and 6:45 warren isa generally safe against most pressures. (stephano style) On July 23 2012 04:42 Belial88 wrote: No one in pro play at GOM or MLG has come close to holding a 10 pool baneling or 10 pool 8 of 12 drones pulled single spine when going hatch first. It's impossible. A lot of people, like casters, keep insisting it's possible to survive, but it's because some people do bad variations of 10 pool. You cannot hold a check style 10 pool bane or nestea's 10 pool 8/12 drone single spine. If you can link that game, I'd love to see it. On July 23 2012 13:01 whatevername wrote: if a terran puts an eng bay at my nat, how many drones should I pull to kill it? I kept only one and went 15 pool queen etc and I feel like i came quite a bit behind for it. Also, the timing to sac an overlord zvt is 8:40 right? Would that allow me to respond adequately to a 3 OC or can I only tenably react to whatever his push composition with such a late sac? In general how do you respond to a 3 oc. I wouldn't pull any drones off to kill it, save one maybe that you used to kill the SCV. In my opinion it is better to pool first and get a faster speed since you won't have spines to defend against hellions. Having to do this is the best response, as you won't be terribly far behind thanks to a much faster queen. I'm not sure of the timing to sac an overlord, but as long as you can confirm there is no all in coming (eg. hellion marauder) or 3OC, you shouldn't have to sac an overlord. Scouting mech or bio isn't that important. On maps like Cloud Kingdom you can usually scout a third OC without losing your overlord. Honestly, you can stop most pushes that come just when the units come out of the Terran base. You should be having at least 6+ queens to spread creep and will have either 2-3 hatches up to pump lings and banelings if you have the tech. Against a 3OC you can either: roach/baneling/ling all in depending on how fast your gas was, or rush a third base. "Standard" metagame (most korean pros) now is to just have a super fast third, so it would naturally counter 3OC without having to scout it. On July 23 2012 13:43 Shousan wrote: Hi, I've been facing this 1rax FE followed by 6 hellions and banshees with cloak into mass bio with upgrades and don't really know how to properly deal with the constant harrass made by hellions first, then hellions + banshees and then drops with upgraded bio, I usually open with 4 queens but even if I manage to somehow defend the first attacks I get my third, I've been able to clean many waves of attacks but eventually I just get outnumbered. I also tried a 6 queen opener but if the terran just doesn't go for that many hellions or banshees it feels that the bio will just crush my bases, I'm not very good at this opening since I rarely do it, but don't know if I'm dealing with this the right way or just try to defend this opening with 4 queens and making more as I see fit. Terran seems to be just sending waves of this while expanding and it is difficult to really delay expos early on due to the hellions. I go for mutas-banes-speedlings, and this is against master players. Don't have any reps here but would love to hear how you deal with this effectively. 6 queen opener is the best opener currently. With 6 queens you can pretty much stop anything and spread creep, which is essential to stop what you are talking about. Against bio play, you need to know when to start adding gas so you can have speed and banelings ready for any real pushes. Any pokes can be stopped with your queens, but for big bio pushes (eg, the popular 16 marines and 2 medivacs), you should have lings and a safety baneling nest ready. I still use a 40-supply-take-all-gasses opening popularized by Spanishiwa, except I will constantly make queens until 6 or more. First 100 gas goes to lair unless I scout any aggression. If so, first 100 gas goes towards speed and next 50 goes towards baneling nest. I think the most important part to stopping such pushes is actually spreading creep. Doing so decreases the effectiveness of hellions and makes your units 2x stronger, ESPECIALLY slow banelings. Queens > everything right now. | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
if a terran puts an eng bay at my nat, how many drones should I pull to kill it? I kept only one and went 15 pool queen etc and I feel like i came quite a bit behind for it. Also, the timing to sac an overlord zvt is 8:40 right? Would that allow me to respond adequately to a 3 OC or can I only tenably react to whatever his push composition with such a late sac? In general how do you respond to a 3 oc. You should see the SCV coming with your scouting worker or the drone you use to plant the hatch. Immediately pull 2-3 drones, have all of them on a-move, except one of them, which you micro around in front of the SCV to make sure it can't throw anything down (kind of like stopping a pylon block). It should be pretty easy to prevent an ebay block because the building is so goddamn big. Also if they actually get it down, your drones should then be able to instantly kill the SCV so the building only needs a few shots to it. You shouldn't be surprised by an ebay block. Soon as you realize the SCV is going to get there before the drone, pull 2 more workers. Timing to sac an overlord is similar to zvp, like 7:00, 6:00 if he doesnt' have an expo on the low ground. Like 40 supply, 30 if he doesn have an expo. Since ZvT isn't as rock solid in the beginning as ZvP, going by supply is a better indicator than time. But you'll probably figure the time is about 7:00 since that's around 40 supply. Hi, I've been facing this 1rax FE followed by 6 hellions and banshees with cloak into mass bio with upgrades and don't really know how to properly deal with the constant harrass made by hellions first, then hellions + banshees and then drops with upgraded bio, I usually open with 4 queens but even if I manage to somehow defend the first attacks I get my third, I've been able to clean many waves of attacks but eventually I just get outnumbered. With 2xgas taken at the standard time, after third, ~45, you should have speed in time. Right before speed kicks in, like 60-70 supply, you should make some speedlings because queens alone might have some trouble, especially if he splits up. The lings buy time if he does that, and slows him down, so the queens can deal with them. Prevents runby's. Also, a single spine after 2xgas, about 45, helps too. Watch what the pros do, you'll see they do all of this. As for banshees, yea, that can be a pain. You really just have to put a spore in each base, and then I'd recommend 1-2 extra spores, where he's likely to attack with hellion/banshee (the third, or up right into the natural, so he can fight you, win the fight, then run all the hellions into your base to win the game). You really need 6 queens to deal with hellion/banshee. Otherwise you will have to heavily rely on speedlings. With 6 queens, you should be able to deal with the hellion/banshee and only have to make a handful of lings. 2xgas at 45, you'll have it in time as long as, say, you hotkey your pool so you can get it asap, as the timing is quite tight. You also should throw down the evo chamber at 70 supply, as you making spores immediately when it pops will make sure they will be out right when the banshee arrives, and not too early to hurt your econ unnecessary and not too late to just miss the banshee. My ZvT guide goes in-depth on this. 2x queens, 2x queens, then the next 2 made one at a time, basically out of the same hatch (doesnt have to, but just to give an idea of the timings). I feel like I'm stuck in Platinum partly because I don't have any method for managing injects. I trust my sense of timing to know when a hatchery will need one, then manually mouse over each of them in turn and inject. In battles this means it never happens. What's your favorite inject style? I feel I need to just pick one and do it over and over against the CPU until it's second nature. I used a 'queen inject timer' for the longest time, up to about masters. You can get it as an app for your phone, just have your phone next to you when you play. Personally, I use backspace inject method (remap backspace 'center over base' to space bar, or whatever you like best, spacebar at default is a useless command anyways, ie look at last event). There's just no comparing to the larva it gives you, and you can inject much faster. The drawback is that if you dont have a queen per hatch, you'll have queens running around, but a simple stop command issued after a round of injects will prevent the queens from running around like chickens, and I think having 5 queens up to 4 bases is really all the injects you need, after 5+ bases I think you'll have more than enough normal larva production to continue and you can then use your queens for lategame broodlord/infestor mass transfuse and fighting AA. I'll often have those queens at my most forward expansion, or the one that's most important/likely to be attacked/newest most exposed expo, so they can defend it or transfuse it if it took damage due to harass, and I'll often put down a hatchery in the middle of the map for these queens to just inject during the game. Really, some people knock backspace for the whole queens running around thing, but I've never had a problem with it. Just use stop if you don't have all the hatches, and you can also just NOT inject that hatchery. I mean, the other inject methods are manual, look at the base, inject it, so it's not any slower than any other method than simply slowing down a bit when doing the backspace inject, and when the hatch with no queen comes up, not injecting it. genesis, if you take all gases at 40 yet constantly produce to 6 queen *and* take like a 6;00 third [thats the correctish timing right?] how...how do you afford that? Wouldnt you be really delayed on gas etc. Can you give me a rep or something along those lines? It's 2xgases at 45, not 40, and it's because you didn't take any gas earlier or make any units or static defense earlier than that. Check out my zvt guide, I have a vod of drg doing it, maybe I can find a rep of me playing it out though if you like. 2x gas at 45, and you'll have speed in time against any stim push, otherwise, terran is doing a semi-all-in push because he delayed his third, in which case slowlings on creep and 6 queens will destroy them anyways, and speed will likely finish in time against it anyways (i mean he cant make enough mariens in time to overpower slow ligns on creep before your speed is done around 60 supply). | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
6 queen opener. i lose in the lategame, but that's way later. its just a game i happened to play where i went 6 queen opener, defended some aggression (i think he made a bunch of marines to atack my third or something?). In hindsight i think i lost the game going ultras (or, not making enough ultras and going broods after making ultras), and just didnt have enough t3 tech out that i slowly died. anyways. recently ive been seeing zergs go third ~36 instead of ~40-45. What happens is at ~36 supply, you have about 300+ minerals and a bunch of larva popping from 2xinjects. Most zergs I think, make a huge round of ~8 drones there, then take the third, but I, along with some pros I've observed recently doing this, make the third first ~36 supply, and THEN the drones. doesn't really matter which order you do it in, imo, but I think making that round of drones than taking the third ~40-45 is what people have been doing longer. For all intents and purposes, build is the same. Also, make sure you send the drone out at like 0-100 minerals, dont select a drone in your mineral line and then queue the make hatchery command. That ties up 300 minerals for no reason for that 10-15 seconds the drone walks to the third, which essentially means your 5th queen (and 6th, because made after that one) is delayed, as well as more drones. Just a mistake I see a lot of people make. | ||
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