|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On July 24 2012 22:34 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvP, if i manage to do a 15 pool and sneak in a 15 hatch, what should i do after the 15 hatch? Should i build overlord immediatly? build drone? Also, very important, should i make 2 lings first, or is it ok to build the queen? I feel like building the queen gives the protoss a window where he can cannon rush me and win. Also, note i don't keep my second overlord on my natura and i do not plan to change it. I do send my third one over there tho
i usually go drone, overlord, queen just keep an overlrod over your natural, if they build a pylon or have the probe keep hanging around make the lings first if they dont then get the queen
unless they start the cannonwhen you make the queen you can still get the lings out in time to stop the cannon just make sure theres no pylon already there with yuor OV
|
On July 24 2012 22:36 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 22:34 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvP, if i manage to do a 15 pool and sneak in a 15 hatch, what should i do after the 15 hatch? Should i build overlord immediatly? build drone? Also, very important, should i make 2 lings first, or is it ok to build the queen? I feel like building the queen gives the protoss a window where he can cannon rush me and win. Also, note i don't keep my second overlord on my natura and i do not plan to change it. I do send my third one over there tho i usually go drone, overlord, queen just keep an overlrod over your natural, if they build a pylon or have the probe keep hanging around make the lings first if they dont then get the queen unless they start the cannonwhen you make the queen you can still get the lings out in time to stop the cannon just make sure theres no pylon already there with yuor OV
I do not keep an overlord at my natural, that's why i am asking this. If i go for queen, i must pull at least a drone to check around the hatch ebcause i have no vision around it. So, is it better to make the queen first and pull the drone, or just make 2 lings and then build the queen?
|
On July 24 2012 22:41 Asolmanx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 22:36 Forikorder wrote:On July 24 2012 22:34 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvP, if i manage to do a 15 pool and sneak in a 15 hatch, what should i do after the 15 hatch? Should i build overlord immediatly? build drone? Also, very important, should i make 2 lings first, or is it ok to build the queen? I feel like building the queen gives the protoss a window where he can cannon rush me and win. Also, note i don't keep my second overlord on my natura and i do not plan to change it. I do send my third one over there tho i usually go drone, overlord, queen just keep an overlrod over your natural, if they build a pylon or have the probe keep hanging around make the lings first if they dont then get the queen unless they start the cannonwhen you make the queen you can still get the lings out in time to stop the cannon just make sure theres no pylon already there with yuor OV I do not keep an overlord at my natural, that's why i am asking this. If i go for queen, i must pull at least a drone to check around the hatch ebcause i have no vision around it. So, is it better to make the queen first and pull the drone, or just make 2 lings and then build the queen?
if you dont have the OV at your nat then id say you have to make at least 2 lings to look for the probe
|
There is no reason not to keep your 9 overlord at your natural until the hatch finishes or at least until you get lings out. It does not prevent you from getting your overlord into good positions for scouting later on and lets you know whether or not you can go queen or lings first when your pool finishes.
|
On July 24 2012 22:34 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvP, if i manage to do a 15 pool and sneak in a 15 hatch, what should i do after the 15 hatch? Should i build overlord immediatly? build drone? Also, very important, should i make 2 lings first, or is it ok to build the queen? I feel like building the queen gives the protoss a window where he can cannon rush me and win. Also, note i don't keep my second overlord on my natura and i do not plan to change it. I do send my third one over there tho
I do
14drone
15ovie
queen
17drone
2 lings
21 third
|
Mid-High masters Z here.
I try to sum up everything, so i dont have to write a big block of text:
The current Metagame feels like its going away from 5-6-7-8-Gate-Blink-Whatever-Builds which i can actually hold quite nice with my timings into more and more Sentry-Immortal-Stalker-All in.
If i try to attack in the common roach-ling-style i will maybe 2-3 stalkers while losing everything.
if i dont attack, i have a crappy army and later tech
if i dont attack and dont build units, i have better tech but a timespan where i just hope that he wont attack me while getting brutlords.
If i cant deal any damage and he takes a xtreme secure 3rd, it feels like its over.
Whats your current way to play against this style? I tried fast baneling dropps - but it doenst seem also the way to go. Some people told me, they r going fast infestor with some hydra-ling.
Please help me :D - last weekend i played 28 games - 24 zvp and its getting boring to lose against theese 2base immortal all ins 
i will try to post some replays if i find some 
|
On July 24 2012 22:34 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvP, if i manage to do a 15 pool and sneak in a 15 hatch, what should i do after the 15 hatch? Should i build overlord immediatly? build drone? Also, very important, should i make 2 lings first, or is it ok to build the queen? I feel like building the queen gives the protoss a window where he can cannon rush me and win. Also, note i don't keep my second overlord on my natura and i do not plan to change it. I do send my third one over there tho
I usually do 15 pool 16 hatch and if the hatch gets up I build an overlord right after. And yes, you need the two lings to find the probe and deflect cannon rushes. Your overlord scouting pattern is the same as mine. First two overlords will go to the protoss base and my third one will be sent to my third. I feel that pulling a drone off to spot early cannon rushes at my natural until my lings pop out is better because you need two overlords to scout the protoss - one to watch natural gasses (which is easy on maps like Antiga, Ohana, etc.) and one to suicide into the main.
On July 24 2012 22:41 Asolmanx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 22:36 Forikorder wrote:On July 24 2012 22:34 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvP, if i manage to do a 15 pool and sneak in a 15 hatch, what should i do after the 15 hatch? Should i build overlord immediatly? build drone? Also, very important, should i make 2 lings first, or is it ok to build the queen? I feel like building the queen gives the protoss a window where he can cannon rush me and win. Also, note i don't keep my second overlord on my natura and i do not plan to change it. I do send my third one over there tho i usually go drone, overlord, queen just keep an overlrod over your natural, if they build a pylon or have the probe keep hanging around make the lings first if they dont then get the queen unless they start the cannonwhen you make the queen you can still get the lings out in time to stop the cannon just make sure theres no pylon already there with yuor OV I do not keep an overlord at my natural, that's why i am asking this. If i go for queen, i must pull at least a drone to check around the hatch ebcause i have no vision around it. So, is it better to make the queen first and pull the drone, or just make 2 lings and then build the queen?
oh just saw this. You should actually always pull a drone in that situation if you don't use your second overlord to guard your natural. Make the two lings then the queen. Its not that big of a difference but it keeps you safe.
|
On July 25 2012 05:14 pAnatiC wrote:Mid-High masters Z here. I try to sum up everything, so i dont have to write a big block of text: The current Metagame feels like its going away from 5-6-7-8-Gate-Blink-Whatever-Builds which i can actually hold quite nice with my timings into more and more Sentry-Immortal-Stalker-All in. If i try to attack in the common roach-ling-style i will maybe 2-3 stalkers while losing everything. if i dont attack, i have a crappy army and later tech if i dont attack and dont build units, i have better tech but a timespan where i just hope that he wont attack me while getting brutlords. If i cant deal any damage and he takes a xtreme secure 3rd, it feels like its over. Whats your current way to play against this style? I tried fast baneling dropps - but it doenst seem also the way to go. Some people told me, they r going fast infestor with some hydra-ling. Please help me :D - last weekend i played 28 games - 24 zvp and its getting boring to lose against theese 2base immortal all ins i will try to post some replays if i find some
Here is a ton of information on theory crafting and stopping the immortal sentry push.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=immortal sentry
I think that as long as your macro is better, you can always stop this push with roach ling. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to stop it with roach ling and I think its actually the only way. Any fancy lair tech (infestors, drop play, banelings) will cut out of your army too harshly. If you still have problems, make spines - they help A LOT. But honestly, good creep spread / good macro / an ass load of roach ling should always stop it if you do everything properly. Its really difficult, but if you want to stop it everything has to be perfect.
If you manage to hold the push, I would follow up with drop play. You are going to have a huge army, but no way to use it because of sentry forcefields. Drops nullify that and allow you to crush the protoss in a straight up fight or just harass him in 84328470 places at once. Follow up with infestors and hive tech while grabbing your 4th and 5th.
|
Hey guys! What is the main difference between 6:00 2 extractor and 6:30ish 3 extractor(3 hatch zvp)? Do you decide the gas timing upon scouting, does it depend on the map?
|
^ 6:00 means the first 100 gas is quicker, so quicker lair/speed. 6:30 3x means a bit later for the first 100, but the first 200 comes much quicker (so if you go lair/speed first, speed/lair will finish quicker with 3xgas, but that first lair/speed will come quicker with 2x), but you get more drones, I'd say a 5-10 supply difference. I don't see anyone hit 80+ supply at 8:00 going 2xgas at 6:00.
On an interesting note, if you take 4xgas and put 2 drones in each, you will get slightly more gas for the same overall drone cost as 3xgas. I think the only extra cost is one of the drones, instead of mining for that 30 seconds, he's turning into that 4th extractor. So I guess it costs you 20 extra minerals since a worker mines at 40 minerals/minute. It's something I'm considering doing. Also the absolute cost overall is lower with this 4xgas with 2 drones in each since you already made that 4th extractor while that 3 drones in 3x will eventually need to take that 4th extractor. I guess there's also the cost of the extra extractor when taking 4x gaso so it's really like it costs 45 minerals up front?
|
I've read on here a number of times 6 queen is way better than 4 queen, so are fast thirds etc, so how come some pros like catz and destiny still prefer the 4 queen ~ 40X4 gas timings? Are there some advantages of these builds over others, etc?
|
^ You would have to ask them.
If they are going 4 queen with 40x4gas, that sounds like they are doing a 2 base build. That just very simply means they are trading economy for more units. Maybe they feel it's safer, in which case in my humble opinion, I think is just a less optimal build, or maybe they are doing pressure, in which case they are just hoping to do damage and the opponent doesn't recognize their 2 base lair play.
6 queen is more made to counter 1 rax FE into pressure, especailly hellion/banshee. They probably don't run into hellion/banshee as much on ladder as you would in korean tournaments, so probably don't feel the need to use it as much. If the opponent doesn't go for a quick third, then the economic hit isn't as big.
I just don't agree with someone not doing a 5-6 queen build and lair on 2 base in zvt anymore, even if you go mutas I think 6 queen build is just superior, maybe 5 if you want to be greedier ;/
I have a question. Against a proxy 2 gate, should you make/cancel your hatchery?
So I'm chugging along, doing my build order - 14 pool, try to take a 16 hatch if i can, whatever. I drone scout, but some Toss try to fake you out and put a pylon on the low ground, nothing in the main, and make it look like a nexus first, but it will be really obvious what they are trying to do by the time my pool pops if a nexus still hasn't planted and he still hasn't sent down a second probe or gave up on the nexus block and just make a forge.
At this time, I've already made a hatchery. So, seeing what's up now with it being fishy, I make 2 spines in my gas, and a gas for ling speed asap. What I am asking, is should I cancel my hatchery?
What seems to happen a lot, is Toss will go in my main, easily get denied by drones + 2 spines, whatever. Then he'll go for my natural. I'll try to protect it, but i won't try too hard, and let it die if it need to. It's fine, I can afford the 2 spines, gas, queen, and lings with making the hatch, I dont need that money, but maybe Toss would back off his 2 proxy 2 gate and go for a 4 gate or something, i don't know. What I'm wondering, is should I cancel my hatchery now on, or not make it, against 2 gate, or should I keep it?
The pros:
- He attacks the hatch (if he's stupid, keyword), it buys time and I save a few drones that don't have to fight zealots trying to protect the spines
- A hatch! More production, since I may be focused on micro'ing the queen away from zealots that it's not safe to inject or I'll want to transfuse the spines
The cons:
- some money i guess, although I don't really need it
- if he kills it, i dont know if that matters, but maybe he could get back into the game if he kills it and then backs off and does something like a 4 gate against a 1 base zerg?
Anyways... just curious. i never lose to 2 gate, so i guess it doesn't really matter, but just wondering what you guys do. Maybe if i cancel it I could get like a 2nd queen quicker or something. Once speedlings are out he just dies so...
|
On July 25 2012 14:22 Belial88 wrote:
^ 6:00 means the first 100 gas is quicker, so quicker lair/speed. 6:30 3x means a bit later for the first 100, but the first 200 comes much quicker (so if you go lair/speed first, speed/lair will finish quicker with 3xgas, but that first lair/speed will come quicker with 2x), but you get more drones, I'd say a 5-10 supply difference. I don't see anyone hit 80+ supply at 8:00 going 2xgas at 6:00.
On an interesting note, if you take 4xgas and put 2 drones in each, you will get slightly more gas for the same overall drone cost as 3xgas. I think the only extra cost is one of the drones, instead of mining for that 30 seconds, he's turning into that 4th extractor. So I guess it costs you 20 extra minerals since a worker mines at 40 minerals/minute. It's something I'm considering doing. Also the absolute cost overall is lower with this 4xgas with 2 drones in each since you already made that 4th extractor while that 3 drones in 3x will eventually need to take that 4th extractor. I guess there's also the cost of the extra extractor when taking 4x gaso so it's really like it costs 45 minerals up front?
I tried it out, and your first 200 gas will be mined like 15 seconds earlier with 2 gas @ 6:00. ^^
I think 6:00 is safer against the easy pressures, but less economical. So if you see the forge spinning really early, and many chronos on the cybernetics core you should make 2 extractors @6:00, otherwise 3 around 6:30.
In the first game @8:20, with 6:00 2 extractor + 7:00 2 extractor, i had 556 gas. 100 gas @ 7:03, 200 gas @ 7:29
In the second game @8:20 with 6:30 3 extractor (no fourth), i had gas. 412 gas @ 7:26, 200 gas @ 7:44
With the 3 extractor i had more mineral ofc. (+350)
Ofc my play wasn't optimal.^^
|
On July 25 2012 14:41 Belial88 wrote:
I have a question. Against a proxy 2 gate, should you make/cancel your hatchery?
So I'm chugging along, doing my build order - 14 pool, try to take a 16 hatch if i can, whatever. I drone scout, but some Toss try to fake you out and put a pylon on the low ground, nothing in the main, and make it look like a nexus first, but it will be really obvious what they are trying to do by the time my pool pops if a nexus still hasn't planted and he still hasn't sent down a second probe or gave up on the nexus block and just make a forge.
At this time, I've already made a hatchery. So, seeing what's up now with it being fishy, I make 2 spines in my gas, and a gas for ling speed asap. What I am asking, is should I cancel my hatchery?
What seems to happen a lot, is Toss will go in my main, easily get denied by drones + 2 spines, whatever. Then he'll go for my natural. I'll try to protect it, but i won't try too hard, and let it die if it need to. It's fine, I can afford the 2 spines, gas, queen, and lings with making the hatch, I dont need that money, but maybe Toss would back off his 2 proxy 2 gate and go for a 4 gate or something, i don't know. What I'm wondering, is should I cancel my hatchery now on, or not make it, against 2 gate, or should I keep it?
The pros:
- He attacks the hatch (if he's stupid, keyword), it buys time and I save a few drones that don't have to fight zealots trying to protect the spines
- A hatch! More production, since I may be focused on micro'ing the queen away from zealots that it's not safe to inject or I'll want to transfuse the spines
The cons:
- some money i guess, although I don't really need it
- if he kills it, i dont know if that matters, but maybe he could get back into the game if he kills it and then backs off and does something like a 4 gate against a 1 base zerg?
Anyways... just curious. i never lose to 2 gate, so i guess it doesn't really matter, but just wondering what you guys do. Maybe if i cancel it I could get like a 2nd queen quicker or something. Once speedlings are out he just dies so...
You can actually scout it just by seeing the probe count and nexus energy. Most 2 gate pushes will cut probes harshly and bank chronoboost for faster zealots.
Obviously, it would be preferable to keep the hatch, and if you can defend it you pretty much win since he will have no tech, a very late expansion, and two random gates and a pylon sitting in the middle of nowhere. Being on one base is a huge disadvantage because 4 gates against 1 base zerg is (in my opinion) the most common follow up and is really hard to hold even with spines on one base.
|
I tried it out, and your first 200 gas will be mined like 15 seconds earlier with 2 gas @ 6:00. ^^
I think 6:00 is safer against the easy pressures, but less economical. So if you see the forge spinning really early, and many chronos on the cybernetics core you should make 2 extractors @6:00, otherwise 3 around 6:30.
Ah, really? Sorry to be wrong, it was how I understood it.
I've always handled pressure fine with 3xgas style. But very cool how you tested it out instead of speaking out of your ass cough me cough.
You can actually scout it just by seeing the probe count and nexus energy. Most 2 gate pushes will cut probes harshly and bank chronoboost for faster zealots.
Ah, that's pretty cool. I just block the nexus, if he still hasn't thrown anything down by like the time pool pops, i check his main to see if he has a pylon or not in there (sometimes I'll run into gate-nexus-core and it'll look the same as in nothing in natural but a pylon for a long time).
Obviously, it would be preferable to keep the hatch, and if you can defend it you pretty much win since he will have no tech, a very late expansion, and two random gates and a pylon sitting in the middle of nowhere. Being on one base is a huge disadvantage because 4 gates against 1 base zerg is (in my opinion) the most common follow up and is really hard to hold even with spines on one base.
I mean, you pretty much win if you have speed though, you just run like 4 lings to his base to kill off probes, and he can't do anything because if he tries to go into your main, you have 2 spines (or 1, whatever), not to mention a queen or two, and larva inject lings coming out that overpowers the production of 2xplain gate by a lot.
I've never had a 4 gate follow-up work if I went speedlings instead of roaches.
Here's a replay of a game I played, I lost the hatch but still win easily.:
http://drop.sc/227494
|
This was a PM I sent to Belial, but after a second thought posting this here could be more relevant to what I want to do.
I am currently in the process of creating a Zerg Strategy Portal on the Liquipedia, similar to what has been done for the Protoss Strategy Portal.
To give you an idea on what I am doing, this is the Protoss Strategy Portal.
This is the Zerg Strategy Portal.
And this is the Zerg Portal (WIP) I'm currently working on.
The big issue I'm having is that the Zerg Strategy Articles are sometimes outdated. And while I follow the SC2 scene closely and try to keep track of the metagame, I am not a good player by any means. For this reason, I'm trying to gather a small team of motivated people that could have a look at all the Zerg Strategy Articles in order to sort those between three categories:
1°) FUBAR
2°) Requires some updating, but pretty up-to-date
3°)Up-to date.
If anyone is interested in this project, and would have some time on his hands to help me with this, please send me a PM !
Together, we can make the Zerg Strategy Section a better place !
Thanks in advance for you answer and your help,
|
ZvT Endgame Unbeatable Terran? (Bronze-Z Silver-T)
At work right now but will get a replay up later, basically went 14 pool 15 hatch. Defended a few attacks around the 7minute mark (3tanks, 10marines, 3-5 marauders) with ling/baneling/roach. Moved into spire/ling/roach play and teched to hive to go into broodlords. I was able to hold him on two bases till about 12mins i had three since about the 8minute mark. Game went to about the 45min mark fyi.
Endgame-
I did not make some of the most cost efficient trades but with an extra base up i figured i was in good shape.
Heres my issue, whats the possible counter for this army composition when you have nearly infinite resources
His:
6-7 Vikings
4 Ravens
Mass Rine/Tank/Maurader
5Medivac
3/3 land (not sure on air)
Mine:
5Broodlords
6Corruptor
30 roach
Lings
2 infestors(orig. 5 but 3 died)
3/3 land
2/0 (air)
Numbers are probably some what off but this is the basic idea, Any land effort i had was crushed by tanks with marine maurader medivac support. And my broodlords and corruptors were demolished by marine/viking/raven. Only thing i can thing is just not let them get to the end game or replace roaches with infestors. Even with a significant econ(always stayed 1 base ahead and constantly harassed his third with infestor) he was able to keep matching armys with me. Was i just out played? or is this a hard comp to beat
|
Brood Lord Armor or Attack?
Which is more beneficial?
|
On July 26 2012 01:17 repulsive wrote:
Brood Lord Armor or Attack?
Which is more beneficial?
I'd go with armor since the majority of the DPS on these bad boys comes from the ground attack of the broodlings, and you want your brood to be as hard as possible to kill when you engage with them.
|
On July 25 2012 14:30 whatevername wrote:
I've read on here a number of times 6 queen is way better than 4 queen, so are fast thirds etc, so how come some pros like catz and destiny still prefer the 4 queen ~ 40X4 gas timings? Are there some advantages of these builds over others, etc?
4 queens means faster tech, less drones and a delayed third. 6 queens means late tech, more drones and a really fast third and a SHIT TON of creep spread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
