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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
They don't take a 3rd CC with this so its basically a 2 base all in, its the only Terran build that just owns me every single time and it's starting to get frustrating. Is there a specific point to stop droning? It's hard to scout because an overlord sack wont neccesarily see anything and on most maps I can't really use overlords to spot... T.T | ||
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ncsix
1370 Posts
On July 23 2012 19:36 Host- wrote: Whats the best way to deal with 3 Rax 1 Fact hellion/marine; hitting around 9 mins. They don't take a 3rd CC with this so its basically a 2 base all in, its the only Terran build that just owns me every single time and it's starting to get frustrating. Is there a specific point to stop droning? It's hard to scout because an overlord sack wont neccesarily see anything and on most maps I can't really use overlords to spot... T.T You should be able to see this coming or at least sense it coming with overlords, typically you can count gas and sac an overlord just to see the amount of marines he has. Most large maps with xel'naga towers, and some lings with give you enough time to spot the all-in. When the initial hellions harass, it can be a good idea to learn from Stephano and build a roach warren. The important keys are having a good creep spread and enough forces to kite and slow it down till you definitely have enough defenses to pull through, normally having 3-4 spines built can save you. Some other tricks you might try are burrowed banelings. As with forum guidelines, you should post a replay for analysis. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On July 23 2012 15:42 whatevername wrote: Yeah, if you could get a rep that would be really helpful. Replays are just so much easier to see all the little timings and such.  Not in my home country right now and my replays are on my computer, sorry :/ @Belial: Eh, I take all 4 at 40 supply. Just a variation I guess. | ||
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Cuber
Poland48 Posts
On July 23 2012 19:36 Host- wrote: Whats the best way to deal with 3 Rax 1 Fact hellion/marine; hitting around 9 mins. They don't take a 3rd CC with this so its basically a 2 base all in, its the only Terran build that just owns me every single time and it's starting to get frustrating. Is there a specific point to stop droning? It's hard to scout because an overlord sack wont neccesarily see anything and on most maps I can't really use overlords to spot... T.T It's really easy to stop if you play roach style. Just take a fast 3rd and half saturate it. Build a banelings nest and morph 6-7 banelings as the push comes. Roaches on auto atack, micro your banelings into marines and/or hellions, support with lings only  When the push comes I have around 50 drones (3 gases, for roaches, few banelings and +1 for lings) and lair under way. high master z here. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On July 23 2012 22:26 Cuber wrote: It's really easy to stop if you play roach style. Just take a fast 3rd and half saturate it. Build a banelings nest and morph 6-7 banelings as the push comes. Roaches on auto atack, micro your banelings into marines and/or hellions, support with lings only When the push comes I have around 50 drones (3 gases, for roaches, few banelings and +1 for lings) and lair under way. high master z here.I think fast third builds in general are really good against this type of attack. Roach/ling/bane would completely crush it, but you should have enough economy and larva to hold with queen/ling or queen/ling/bane. I think the main thing that would kill you is if you cut drones too early and don't have the Econ to reinforce. | ||
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Thezereus
Poland5 Posts
Im gold league zerg and i have problems on my macro game, i have too much minerals. Since i have 2 full saturated bases im starting to get surplus of minerals and i have no clue what to do with them, should i make more drones, third, start to do army ? how do i improve my macro ? here is my replay http://www.sendspace.com/file/m207e5 | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
What is the best response to a Protoss going 3 immortal 6-7 gate +1+1 timing push. I see this all the time, spot it, know its coming and still can't stop it. I've tried lots of roach ling off 3 base but I just can't seem to get around all the force fields and the immortals / stalkers with warp in re-inforements are typically just to much. The only work around I've found to stop this is 2 base base drop timing for 9 min but, this puts a serious dent into the econ if you can't stop the attack / do damage as your still on 2 base vs 2 base afterwards which isn't a good situtation to be in. So with the typical 3 base expansion in ZvP when you see the FFE and spot the early robo what is the best way to do this. Do I just need to cut drones sooner and build waaay more lings. The last game I saw this coming I had a 120 over 88 supply lead and his stupid 234234324 centries never ran out of energy by the time all my lings and roach died. I even got a full 360 surround and it was't enough. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On July 23 2012 22:02 GenesisX wrote: Not in my home country right now and my replays are on my computer, sorry :/ @Belial: Eh, I take all 4 at 40 supply. Just a variation I guess. That's why you don't have any drones. That is WAY too much gas. Most pros don't even start their 3rd and 4th gas until 70+ supply, and will start lair before getting that extra gas. | ||
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Shousan
Mexico92 Posts
BTW I've read your guides today as well and found a lot of useful things on them, they'll definetely help me improve. :D | ||
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Shousan
Mexico92 Posts
On July 24 2012 00:46 rustypipe wrote: Quick question for all the good zergs out there. What is the best response to a Protoss going 3 immortal 6-7 gate +1+1 timing push. I see this all the time, spot it, know its coming and still can't stop it. I've tried lots of roach ling off 3 base but I just can't seem to get around all the force fields and the immortals / stalkers with warp in re-inforements are typically just to much. The only work around I've found to stop this is 2 base base drop timing for 9 min but, this puts a serious dent into the econ if you can't stop the attack / do damage as your still on 2 base vs 2 base afterwards which isn't a good situtation to be in. So with the typical 3 base expansion in ZvP when you see the FFE and spot the early robo what is the best way to do this. Do I just need to cut drones sooner and build waaay more lings. The last game I saw this coming I had a 120 over 88 supply lead and his stupid 234234324 centries never ran out of energy by the time all my lings and roach died. I even got a full 360 surround and it was't enough. I think the way to defend this is to pick the correct place to fight, it needs to be a very open area and you should be able to come from more than one side, 3 bases and a macro hatch should be enough, I've held it against low masters using 3 gases for roaches and all the rest on lings (kinda like stephano's 200 roaches), creep is essential and should be pretty far from your bases, if you see them moving out you can use lings to force a couple FF while positioning your army, for this I make an overseer over my army earlier so I know there's no observer, that way you can really surprise him. Maybe a more experienced Z can enlighten us both, since I'm only low masters and maybe doing something wrong. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On July 24 2012 00:51 Belial88 wrote: That's why you don't have any drones. That is WAY too much gas. Most pros don't even start their 3rd and 4th gas until 70+ supply, and will start lair before getting that extra gas. It's so I can: get lair get ling speed start +1/+1 have an assload of infestors to stop any 10 minute+ push It's a really greedy style but I can bank a ton of gas for both infestors and broodlords. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
generally when i scout an all-in i just go crazy OMG make units and sometimes i jsut get overwhelmed and not sure if i had too few or too many drones also is there a point in the game where you jsut stop droning and pool larvae until you know its safe? sorry if these questions are too vague >< | ||
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Maxamix
Canada165 Posts
On July 24 2012 12:56 Forikorder wrote: when you scout a Protoss gateway all-in is there a certain drone count your trying to aim for? generally when i scout an all-in i just go crazy OMG make units and sometimes i jsut get overwhelmed and not sure if i had too few or too many drones also is there a point in the game where you jsut stop droning and pool larvae until you know its safe? sorry if these questions are too vague >< Well normally if you macro decently and have been using your larvae you should be at least at 60 supply. Belial's guide inform you that it is way easier to hold an all in with 60+ drones than with less. I was reluctant at first but this is really working. I'd suggest you take a look @ belial's guide to ZvP, he details all the "standard" all-in from the toss | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On July 24 2012 13:24 Maxamix wrote: Well normally if you macro decently and have been using your larvae you should be at least at 60 supply. Belial's guide inform you that it is way easier to hold an all in with 60+ drones than with less. I was reluctant at first but this is really working. I'd suggest you take a look @ belial's guide to ZvP, he details all the "standard" all-in from the toss i dont see a link in the OP so hopefully somoene wouldnt mind giving me a link i think the answer i was more looking for was "at XX:XX/at XX drones i stop droning if i think they might be thinking of getting aggressive" or "theres no reasons to stop making drones until they move out with there almost at your third" maybe its just not one of those questions that can really be answered | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On July 24 2012 12:41 GenesisX wrote: It's so I can: get lair get ling speed start +1/+1 have an assload of infestors to stop any 10 minute+ push It's a really greedy style but I can bank a ton of gas for both infestors and broodlords. right, i'm sure it's fine, but most pros get 2xgas at 45+, after that round of drones and a third is taken, and they will maybe take a third gas when those 2 geysers finish, but they won't take 4th and more until after 70 supply. You are cutting drones. You will have lair, speed, and 1/1 in time with 2xgas at 45, getting it earlier seems a bit overkill. i dont really know what the point of getting earlier gas would be, it would make more sense if you made only 5 queens or did only 5 queens a 1xgas at ~30 and the 2nd at 60+, but 2x40 seems a bit much. just imo. i just dont understand why youd take gas so quickly when 2x at 45 is quick enough to stop any timing, and the 6 queens alone keep you safe. when you scout a Protoss gateway all-in is there a certain drone count your trying to aim for? generally when i scout an all-in i just go crazy OMG make units and sometimes i jsut get overwhelmed and not sure if i had too few or too many drones also is there a point in the game where you jsut stop droning and pool larvae until you know its safe? sorry if these questions are too vague >< It's more like how good is your macro and drone up to a certain timing, rather than a specific point. If you are good, you can have 70 drones, full 3 base saturation, at the 8 minute mark in a real game. But even DRG doesn't do that consistently, so it's unlikely lower level players will (although you might hit it once in a while, good job! ive done it twice on ladder). 8:00-8:30 for 3 hatch vs ffe, for 1 base you want to aim around 25-35 drones (25 for 4 gate, 35 for 4 gate immortal). 60 supply is too low nowadays i think. You should be at least 68 supply i think to be competitive. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
It's more like how good is your macro and drone up to a certain timing, rather than a specific point. If you are good, you can have 70 drones, full 3 base saturation, at the 8 minute mark in a real game. But even DRG doesn't do that consistently, so it's unlikely lower level players will (although you might hit it once in a while, good job! ive done it twice on ladder). 8:00-8:30 for 3 hatch vs ffe, for 1 base you want to aim around 25-35 drones (25 for 4 gate, 35 for 4 gate immortal). 60 supply is too low nowadays i think. You should be at least 68 supply i think to be competitive. so its really more like how many drones you can make until they start pressuring then needing to only make a certain amount of drones and needing to start army at a certain point then moving on to ZvT sometimes i jsut feel really lost, i generally do the 4 queens style but once i have the queens its like im jsut in the total dark, im never sure around when i should take my gases, when its safe to take a third how much i should drone when i should get lair, if i need roachs or banelings if i should start double upgrades before or after lair when to drop spire/infestation pit e.t.c generally once i get past that awkward before 3 base period and dont have to worry too mcuh about building an economy im fine i generally can defend drops and handle pushs without having all my banelings exploding on tanks/wiffing fungals im not really after extensive BO's (although if you have some general ones that would be nice) but maybe some general ques you can get from scouting or seeing how much of what the terran is being aggressive with that can help me get a better picture of how to really play ZvT | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On July 24 2012 14:15 Belial88 wrote: right, i'm sure it's fine, but most pros get 2xgas at 45+, after that round of drones and a third is taken, and they will maybe take a third gas when those 2 geysers finish, but they won't take 4th and more until after 70 supply. You are cutting drones. You will have lair, speed, and 1/1 in time with 2xgas at 45, getting it earlier seems a bit overkill. i dont really know what the point of getting earlier gas would be, it would make more sense if you made only 5 queens or did only 5 queens a 1xgas at ~30 and the 2nd at 60+, but 2x40 seems a bit much. just imo. i just dont understand why youd take gas so quickly when 2x at 45 is quick enough to stop any timing, and the 6 queens alone keep you safe. Meh yeah I guess. I can experiment with it, but I like having a big bank of gas to have infestors for the "first push". Gas is good to have. Plus I find marine medivac pushes hard to hold without either a baneling nest or roach warren, and I'd rather not invest into that tech since I don't use banelings much at all. (Aim for a ling/infestor --> infestor/ultra or broodlord comp) I think having a later third is fine if you can pressure Terran mid game and get a faster 4th. | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
On July 23 2012 05:14 whatevername wrote: Alright, how do I deal with the +1 4 gate zealot pressure? I begin making roaches around 8:00 but like 6 zealots can hit my base by 8:30, they just sniped my hatch and bolted. Was that just a failure in my roach production or am I meant to hold it off with lings [???] Spot no gas at natural by 6:30, make instant roach warren, make roaches from third hatch | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
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