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On July 11 2012 10:18 Hemingway wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 09:51 Belial88 wrote:P.S. I open gas rather than queens so that I force Terran to consider the possibility of early baneling and/or roach aggression (not to mention disguising it if I actually do want to go with that play), and since I prefer the options this gives me I doubt I'll be hopping on the mass queen bandwagon . Terrans know you aren't doing bane or roach aggression when they see you haven't taken a third. Or, they know you are doing it because you took a third. Opening gas doesn't really do much to change terran's build order, they still HAVE to get a bunker after CC if they go 1 rax FE (if they open 1 base or rax/gas then they dont care you got gas at all), and they'll just be cautious but won't be any less greedier or less thorough with scouting... i mean, why not open 6 pool to force people to consider the possibility of mass lings in their base? it hurts your econ too much. thats an extreme example... and if you like to get gas early on, that's fine, but dont think that you are somehow forcing terran to hurt himself more than you hurt yourself economically. Are you sure? Because I've seen posts from pros (notably Idra) saying that opening gas (I believe Idra was talking about Stephano specifically) can be advantageous because he can do a huge all-in or play greedy macro style and the opener doesn't give it away. On the other hand, mass queens is pretty indicative of playing for a longer game. And besides that, speed denies scouting so he'd have to use a scan to check on the third base, would he not? And that'd be the scan normally used to check tech path. On another note: queens seem to be weak to hellion run-bys, especially en masse. I've seen everyone from Jecho to Idra lose huge amounts of drones to a well-microed run-by from early hellion pressure, whereas when I open gas and get early roaches plus speedlings I completely shut down hellion play with barely a second thought. What's your stance on that?
Belial's point stands, opening gas isn't necessarily better because of the economic sacrifice. You can take double/triple gas later and threaten roach-bane all-in just fine, and queens deny any non-scan scouting, too. I don't think your arguments really suggest anything special about quick gas.
For clarity, you mean like 17 gas or 21 gas being a gas opening, yes?
I don't think either way is significantly better, else you'd see more of a skew in pro play. If anything, there's a bias towards mass queen and later gas now, isn't there?
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On July 11 2012 10:18 Hemingway wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 09:51 Belial88 wrote:P.S. I open gas rather than queens so that I force Terran to consider the possibility of early baneling and/or roach aggression (not to mention disguising it if I actually do want to go with that play), and since I prefer the options this gives me I doubt I'll be hopping on the mass queen bandwagon . Terrans know you aren't doing bane or roach aggression when they see you haven't taken a third. Or, they know you are doing it because you took a third. Opening gas doesn't really do much to change terran's build order, they still HAVE to get a bunker after CC if they go 1 rax FE (if they open 1 base or rax/gas then they dont care you got gas at all), and they'll just be cautious but won't be any less greedier or less thorough with scouting... i mean, why not open 6 pool to force people to consider the possibility of mass lings in their base? it hurts your econ too much. thats an extreme example... and if you like to get gas early on, that's fine, but dont think that you are somehow forcing terran to hurt himself more than you hurt yourself economically. Are you sure? Because I've seen posts from pros (notably Idra) saying that opening gas (I believe Idra was talking about Stephano specifically) can be advantageous because he can do a huge all-in or play greedy macro style and the opener doesn't give it away. On the other hand, mass queens is pretty indicative of playing for a longer game. And besides that, speed denies scouting so he'd have to use a scan to check on the third base, would he not? And that'd be the scan normally used to check tech path. On another note: queens seem to be weak to hellion run-bys, especially en masse. I've seen everyone from Jecho to Idra lose huge amounts of drones to a well-microed run-by from early hellion pressure, whereas when I open gas and get early roaches plus speedlings I completely shut down hellion play with barely a second thought. What's your stance on that?
First off, you can do a roach/bane all-in with DRG's build order, where he gets 3xGas at 45, which is his first gas ever taken with the build, and get speed in time for your roach/bane all-in when it hits at about 70 zerg supply, so it's not like if you dont open with gas, you just can't all-in at all. Same with ling/bane busts, you can take gas as 2x@40 and get speed in time.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post though - if you like to open gas because you like the option of reactively all-inning or not, that's fine (although i think thats' weird considering you can still get gas/speed in time even with no gas taken until 40's ...). I was just saying, if you ONLY get gas just to 'freak out' terran, it's not a good idea.
A good example is JulyZerg vs... someone, on Ohana. July goes speedling expand vs 1 rax FE, and the terran 'overreacts' with a 2nd bunker, and is still just fine. But really, 1 rax FE always gets a bunker after CC, and that will hold any ling or speedling pressure just fine. People use safe builds for a reason. Based on what they scout, they cut corners, like not make that bunker or fast third, but that's all.
Terran will see your third with their initial hellions, you can't really deny it with speedlings. You dont realyl want to be making speedlings anyways, or any lings for that matter.
But I was just commenting on you saying "oh i get speed to freak out terran and because I deny scouting" and terran isn't going to get freaked out, he'll continue with his BO and still be safe, even if he adds a 2nd bunker he'll still be ahead, and as for denying scouting, Terran will see what's up so I don't think that's a good idea, as you'd have to commit so much to deny a scout that it wouldn't be worth it (ie enough speedlings to deny vision of the third).
But if you like early speed just to have options... even though you can get speed in time for an all-in as late as 45.... that's fine. Weird, but whatever, that's fine. I was just disagreeing with the idea of "I do a sub-optimal opening because I hope terran overreacts and does even more damage to himself than I did to myself!". Otherwise you'd just have really wacked out games where people just chain overreact and kill themselves and their own workers. i guess.
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On July 11 2012 07:54 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +edit:Belial said I should scout 2 base zvz all ins by watching the drone count at his natural, but on a lot of maps I either cant get an overlord to watch that or I cant get it in time, building 4 lings and morphing them into banes usually gets me killed [and I simply cant produce enough to react when I see it leave his base]. Is this just a micro/macro fail on my part or on bigger maps where I cant get that overlord near his natural mineral line, should I err on the side of caution and get a bit more early defence?
edit2: i always have a spine with a baneling nest obstructing it from ling surrounds. How can you not get an overlord to watch in time? Your starting overlord should be sent to the opponent's natural immediately. You should be able to get it to their base on every 2 player map, and on most 4 player maps, in time. Hotkey your first two overlords so you can re-direct them as necessary, especially on 4 player maps or against randoms. Sounds like you are just failing with micro/macro in the beginning stages of the game. If you watch pros, you will notice they always send their overlords out to very specific locations, along very specific routes, every single game, and 99% of people send their overlords in the exact same ways, every time. It's because every single zerg out there has figured out, for themselves, where to best send their overlord, and it just happens to be theres basically 1 correct answer for that. Show nested quote +
Sorry, repeating this because it never got answered: "
1-5 gates hes expoing? This might just be my league [diamond] but I've seen a 5 gate 1 robo immortal all in that cut probes completely at about 40. It was robo first too, so tons and tons of immortals. Is something like that bad enough I should just consider it an outlier and interpret 5 gates as an expo build?"
Sounds like you have some macro problems. Are you hitting at least 65 supply by 8:00? This should be easily attainable if you are in diamond. If he went robo first, that still only means he can get 3 immortals at most for his push, which would probably delay his push at least 20 seconds and means no warp prism to aggressively warp in your face, and/or no observer. But 5 gates just means he can't really make much at all. That or his push is late as shit. An immortal/sentry all-in should be shooting your base by 10:30, as in he's pushing out by 9:30 and already on creep around 10:15. Immortal/sentry all-in is pretty damn rough, but you should be massing roach/ling after 8:30, maybe 8:00. You can either go base trade by, if he pushes out (you have a ling at watch towers right?) and mass spines in your nat and just sac your third if he decides to commit and then you kill his nat (or like hyun, just striaght up full base trade) or you can just lose the third but kill his entire army off and end up ahead because you have a ton of units (leenock does this). It's not exactly easy to deal with, but 5 gate robo should be easy to deal with, if you face someone in diamond that does that... If he hits at 11:00+, then you should crush his army. The maps im talking about is something like entombed, I cant really get a good vision of the minerals due to the countour of the natural. Likewise condemned ridge, often, my overlord just cant reach it in time depending on his position.
And yeah im hitting 65 supply by 8:00, robo first I meant after an FE expand. Its not a question of holding off the push just scouting information. You said 1-5 gates=going for a third, but that 5 gate robo was an all in. Was just double checking on the basis of how I interpret it, but given you said its not very strong and I'll be able to notice the delayed third [now that i know when it should be down] I think i'll be able to stop it if I see it. thanks 
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I usually don't have big problems fending off 2rax, but there are certain situations when I can't click the SCV even when I'm turning the camera.
Is there a way to shiftattack the SCV no matter where it is?
It's incredibly frustrating to lose to 2rax just because I can't click the SCV.
Edit: Just wanted to emphasize that this is not about 2rax in general, but just about the unclickable SCV.
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On July 11 2012 11:54 Jebediah wrote:
I usually don't have big problems fending off 2rax, but there are certain situations when I can't click the SCV even when I'm turning the camera.
Is there a way to shiftattack the SCV no matter where it is?
It's incredibly frustrating to lose to 2rax just because I can't click the SCV.
Edit: Just wanted to emphasize that this is not about 2rax in general, but just about the unclickable SCV.
Yes, you can shift click the scv and ur drone should follow and attack the scv, however if the scv is against a wall ofc, the drone won't be able to atk it 
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On July 11 2012 11:54 Jebediah wrote:
I usually don't have big problems fending off 2rax, but there are certain situations when I can't click the SCV even when I'm turning the camera.
Is there a way to shiftattack the SCV no matter where it is?
It's incredibly frustrating to lose to 2rax just because I can't click the SCV.
Edit: Just wanted to emphasize that this is not about 2rax in general, but just about the unclickable SCV.
I have had some luck with a-clicking (once) near the bunker, which occasionally results in the drone auto-targeting the scv. I then get ready to re-spam click once the scv moves.
I assume you tried zooming in as well?
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On July 11 2012 01:34 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 00:40 Bearwidme wrote:
The rough timing that a bunker can start for a bunker rush build is 2:50 (i think?) so if you aren't able to get up his ramp with a drone scout or you simply don't scout at all you should have a drone checking your natural hatch at this time. Once you establish how committed he his to doing the bunker rush (more than 1 scv = fairly all in) you should be pulling a lot of drones and targetting down the marines and building scvs. 1 or 2 marines can't kill drones without dieing quickly. It's also really important to stick to your build.. ie. Get at least 1 queen, get lings and maybe a spine if he's really all-in. If you sit there trying to micro your drones too much and you pile up 300 minerals you lose.
In regards to the ramp blocks with bunkers/pylon it's quite a simple answer, keep that drone out in front of the hatch (as long as you know there are no bunkers behind the mineral lines) and if you see an attempt at a ramp block you just stick your drone on hold position where the blocking buildings need to be then pull a lot of your drones to kill the impending marines/cannons. There's about 20 second window where these rushes can occur effectively, that scouting drone loses about 20 minerals. Are you really at a level where 20minerals is going to make a difference?
A: No. I wish you would look at the replay or at least read my post before making a response. Let me repeat what was in the post in response to yours in order: -I scouted his main. No gas. Barracks in position to make a wall had sufficient HP to not warrant suspicion. -He pulled multiple SCVs and perfectly sim citied the large ramp of my natural on Shakuras. You can't kill the SCVs because its blocked. You can't kill the marines because they're safely behind the bunker wall. -*Edit*- His SCVs sneaked around a back path so holding the zel'naga tower would've done nothing. Overlords aren't in position yet at the time of his scv move-out. -I did stick to my build. I got queens and spines and lings in response. -I did not stop making offensive units the instant the bunkers started going down. -There could be no drone micro since sim city. -Putting one drone there is insufficient to stop him. He puts down 1 cannon and then attacks the drone. When I move the drone and pull more from the line, by the time the drones from the line get down there its too late and he's sim citied the 2nd cannon in. -The window is much larger than 20 game seconds. In short I already know all the simple fixes that supposedly work but these rushes were at different timings than anything that has been mentioned or shown in detail on these forums and therefore I have great difficulty predicting these rushes (having never seen them or seen reference of them).
- No gas is a warning sign that there's a possible proxy.
I watched the replay and you're right, it is a different variation to a normal bunker rush, the terrible variation. It's a gimicky build that shouldn't work. In fact the only reason it did work is because your pool was 15 (ingame) seconds late. Watch the replay again and look at the timings of your queens/spines/lings and see what could have happened if you had them up 15 seconds earlier.
To be fair though i don't know if you can hold that once the bunkers are up and repaired. It's a prevent it from starting thing, rather than a respond to it late thing.
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On July 11 2012 12:09 XXhkXX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 11:54 Jebediah wrote:
I usually don't have big problems fending off 2rax, but there are certain situations when I can't click the SCV even when I'm turning the camera.
Is there a way to shiftattack the SCV no matter where it is?
It's incredibly frustrating to lose to 2rax just because I can't click the SCV.
Edit: Just wanted to emphasize that this is not about 2rax in general, but just about the unclickable SCV. Yes, you can shift click the scv and ur drone should follow and attack the scv, however if the scv is against a wall ofc, the drone won't be able to atk it
I know how to shiftclick on a SCV, my problem is not being able to select the SCV because the bunker model is in the way.
On July 11 2012 12:39 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 11:54 Jebediah wrote:
I usually don't have big problems fending off 2rax, but there are certain situations when I can't click the SCV even when I'm turning the camera.
Is there a way to shiftattack the SCV no matter where it is?
It's incredibly frustrating to lose to 2rax just because I can't click the SCV.
Edit: Just wanted to emphasize that this is not about 2rax in general, but just about the unclickable SCV. I have had some luck with a-clicking (once) near the bunker, which occasionally results in the drone auto-targeting the scv. I then get ready to re-spam click once the scv moves. I assume you tried zooming in as well?
I tried a-clicking near the SCVs a couple of times while switching camera positions and it works from time to time, but if the SCV stays in the safe spot long enough, another SCV can easily finish the bunker before I have the chance to pick it off.
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What are are some good all in builds for me to pick up and grind games with? I'm about gold right now and need to work on my mechanics
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On July 11 2012 13:15 Bearwidme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 01:34 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 00:40 Bearwidme wrote:
The rough timing that a bunker can start for a bunker rush build is 2:50 (i think?) so if you aren't able to get up his ramp with a drone scout or you simply don't scout at all you should have a drone checking your natural hatch at this time. Once you establish how committed he his to doing the bunker rush (more than 1 scv = fairly all in) you should be pulling a lot of drones and targetting down the marines and building scvs. 1 or 2 marines can't kill drones without dieing quickly. It's also really important to stick to your build.. ie. Get at least 1 queen, get lings and maybe a spine if he's really all-in. If you sit there trying to micro your drones too much and you pile up 300 minerals you lose.
In regards to the ramp blocks with bunkers/pylon it's quite a simple answer, keep that drone out in front of the hatch (as long as you know there are no bunkers behind the mineral lines) and if you see an attempt at a ramp block you just stick your drone on hold position where the blocking buildings need to be then pull a lot of your drones to kill the impending marines/cannons. There's about 20 second window where these rushes can occur effectively, that scouting drone loses about 20 minerals. Are you really at a level where 20minerals is going to make a difference?
A: No. I wish you would look at the replay or at least read my post before making a response. Let me repeat what was in the post in response to yours in order: -I scouted his main. No gas. Barracks in position to make a wall had sufficient HP to not warrant suspicion. -He pulled multiple SCVs and perfectly sim citied the large ramp of my natural on Shakuras. You can't kill the SCVs because its blocked. You can't kill the marines because they're safely behind the bunker wall. -*Edit*- His SCVs sneaked around a back path so holding the zel'naga tower would've done nothing. Overlords aren't in position yet at the time of his scv move-out. -I did stick to my build. I got queens and spines and lings in response. -I did not stop making offensive units the instant the bunkers started going down. -There could be no drone micro since sim city. -Putting one drone there is insufficient to stop him. He puts down 1 cannon and then attacks the drone. When I move the drone and pull more from the line, by the time the drones from the line get down there its too late and he's sim citied the 2nd cannon in. -The window is much larger than 20 game seconds. In short I already know all the simple fixes that supposedly work but these rushes were at different timings than anything that has been mentioned or shown in detail on these forums and therefore I have great difficulty predicting these rushes (having never seen them or seen reference of them). - No gas is a warning sign that there's a possible proxy. I watched the replay and you're right, it is a different variation to a normal bunker rush, the terrible variation. It's a gimicky build that shouldn't work. In fact the only reason it did work is because your pool was 15 (ingame) seconds late. Watch the replay again and look at the timings of your queens/spines/lings and see what could have happened if you had them up 15 seconds earlier. To be fair though i don't know if you can hold that once the bunkers are up and repaired. It's a prevent it from starting thing, rather than a respond to it late thing.
I agree with this assessment, I've been frustrated at finding a greedy-as-possible-without-losing-straight-up option. Hearing that once its up it really is unbreakable and not just some oversight by me does clear things up. From now on I'm just going earlier pool vs T if I see no gas in the main. I had been trying 16/17 pools vs T lately but I'm finding the couple of mins they give isn't worth the risks of Ts who have no skill so they just pull their whole economy and marine rush with every resource within the first 5 minutes.
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Hi, I just switched to zerg from terran, I was diamond as terran and I am currently in plat as zerg. Could anybody look at this ZvZ replay (I'm NIght in the rep) and tell me what am I doing wrong?
http://drop.sc/218644
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What is the best way for a zerg to burn money when they have some. If I play bad during the midgame I can end up with something like 1k mins, and I don't know how to spend it. With T or P you could just build production, just not sure with Z.
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On July 11 2012 20:55 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 13:15 Bearwidme wrote:On July 11 2012 01:34 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 00:40 Bearwidme wrote:
The rough timing that a bunker can start for a bunker rush build is 2:50 (i think?) so if you aren't able to get up his ramp with a drone scout or you simply don't scout at all you should have a drone checking your natural hatch at this time. Once you establish how committed he his to doing the bunker rush (more than 1 scv = fairly all in) you should be pulling a lot of drones and targetting down the marines and building scvs. 1 or 2 marines can't kill drones without dieing quickly. It's also really important to stick to your build.. ie. Get at least 1 queen, get lings and maybe a spine if he's really all-in. If you sit there trying to micro your drones too much and you pile up 300 minerals you lose.
In regards to the ramp blocks with bunkers/pylon it's quite a simple answer, keep that drone out in front of the hatch (as long as you know there are no bunkers behind the mineral lines) and if you see an attempt at a ramp block you just stick your drone on hold position where the blocking buildings need to be then pull a lot of your drones to kill the impending marines/cannons. There's about 20 second window where these rushes can occur effectively, that scouting drone loses about 20 minerals. Are you really at a level where 20minerals is going to make a difference?
A: No. I wish you would look at the replay or at least read my post before making a response. Let me repeat what was in the post in response to yours in order: -I scouted his main. No gas. Barracks in position to make a wall had sufficient HP to not warrant suspicion. -He pulled multiple SCVs and perfectly sim citied the large ramp of my natural on Shakuras. You can't kill the SCVs because its blocked. You can't kill the marines because they're safely behind the bunker wall. -*Edit*- His SCVs sneaked around a back path so holding the zel'naga tower would've done nothing. Overlords aren't in position yet at the time of his scv move-out. -I did stick to my build. I got queens and spines and lings in response. -I did not stop making offensive units the instant the bunkers started going down. -There could be no drone micro since sim city. -Putting one drone there is insufficient to stop him. He puts down 1 cannon and then attacks the drone. When I move the drone and pull more from the line, by the time the drones from the line get down there its too late and he's sim citied the 2nd cannon in. -The window is much larger than 20 game seconds. In short I already know all the simple fixes that supposedly work but these rushes were at different timings than anything that has been mentioned or shown in detail on these forums and therefore I have great difficulty predicting these rushes (having never seen them or seen reference of them). - No gas is a warning sign that there's a possible proxy. I watched the replay and you're right, it is a different variation to a normal bunker rush, the terrible variation. It's a gimicky build that shouldn't work. In fact the only reason it did work is because your pool was 15 (ingame) seconds late. Watch the replay again and look at the timings of your queens/spines/lings and see what could have happened if you had them up 15 seconds earlier. To be fair though i don't know if you can hold that once the bunkers are up and repaired. It's a prevent it from starting thing, rather than a respond to it late thing. I agree with this assessment, I've been frustrated at finding a greedy-as-possible-without-losing-straight-up option. Hearing that once its up it really is unbreakable and not just some oversight by me does clear things up. From now on I'm just going earlier pool vs T if I see no gas in the main. I had been trying 16/17 pools vs T lately but I'm finding the couple of mins they give isn't worth the risks of Ts who have no skill so they just pull their whole economy and marine rush with every resource within the first 5 minutes. I dont think thats smart. 16 pool is pretty standard, no gas openings are basically the go-to terran opener lately. The amount of times a terran is going to pull all his scvs is like, what, 1%? Your just hurting yourself economically every single game for the ever so slightly better chance of catching that all in wiith a sliiiightly better pool timing.
edit: possible suggestion to what that guy did to you is simply abandon your nat and secure your main, continue on with fast upgrades on one base while you crawler push the bunkers out. If hes cut so much to KILL you, I dont think one basing it for a bit will spell doom for you especially if you get faster upgrades. I've seen destiny pull that off a number of times against similar crappy shit from t.
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On July 12 2012 04:47 9-BiT wrote:
What is the best way for a zerg to burn money when they have some. If I play bad during the midgame I can end up with something like 1k mins, and I don't know how to spend it. With T or P you could just build production, just not sure with Z.
I usually make a whole lot of spine crawlers and replace the drones used. The spines are good in drop defend, map control and controlling the map. In ZvZ it's a little different. I make a whole lot of lings off a macro hatch and go for ling runbys since it's really effective. The reason i don't go for spines in ZvZ is because lings can over run that easily. If you opt to make spines in ZvZ make sure you have actual units with it to defend your position.
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How do you beat a mech terran? It seems that they can just push out so many vikings with their somewhat unlimited gas income and destroy your broods. I can't get enough gas to win the air and just lose. So broods wont win, and even if i do win the air the thors just rip me apart even if i spread.
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On July 12 2012 05:04 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 20:55 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 13:15 Bearwidme wrote:On July 11 2012 01:34 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 00:40 Bearwidme wrote:
The rough timing that a bunker can start for a bunker rush build is 2:50 (i think?) so if you aren't able to get up his ramp with a drone scout or you simply don't scout at all you should have a drone checking your natural hatch at this time. Once you establish how committed he his to doing the bunker rush (more than 1 scv = fairly all in) you should be pulling a lot of drones and targetting down the marines and building scvs. 1 or 2 marines can't kill drones without dieing quickly. It's also really important to stick to your build.. ie. Get at least 1 queen, get lings and maybe a spine if he's really all-in. If you sit there trying to micro your drones too much and you pile up 300 minerals you lose.
In regards to the ramp blocks with bunkers/pylon it's quite a simple answer, keep that drone out in front of the hatch (as long as you know there are no bunkers behind the mineral lines) and if you see an attempt at a ramp block you just stick your drone on hold position where the blocking buildings need to be then pull a lot of your drones to kill the impending marines/cannons. There's about 20 second window where these rushes can occur effectively, that scouting drone loses about 20 minerals. Are you really at a level where 20minerals is going to make a difference?
A: No. I wish you would look at the replay or at least read my post before making a response. Let me repeat what was in the post in response to yours in order: -I scouted his main. No gas. Barracks in position to make a wall had sufficient HP to not warrant suspicion. -He pulled multiple SCVs and perfectly sim citied the large ramp of my natural on Shakuras. You can't kill the SCVs because its blocked. You can't kill the marines because they're safely behind the bunker wall. -*Edit*- His SCVs sneaked around a back path so holding the zel'naga tower would've done nothing. Overlords aren't in position yet at the time of his scv move-out. -I did stick to my build. I got queens and spines and lings in response. -I did not stop making offensive units the instant the bunkers started going down. -There could be no drone micro since sim city. -Putting one drone there is insufficient to stop him. He puts down 1 cannon and then attacks the drone. When I move the drone and pull more from the line, by the time the drones from the line get down there its too late and he's sim citied the 2nd cannon in. -The window is much larger than 20 game seconds. In short I already know all the simple fixes that supposedly work but these rushes were at different timings than anything that has been mentioned or shown in detail on these forums and therefore I have great difficulty predicting these rushes (having never seen them or seen reference of them). - No gas is a warning sign that there's a possible proxy. I watched the replay and you're right, it is a different variation to a normal bunker rush, the terrible variation. It's a gimicky build that shouldn't work. In fact the only reason it did work is because your pool was 15 (ingame) seconds late. Watch the replay again and look at the timings of your queens/spines/lings and see what could have happened if you had them up 15 seconds earlier. To be fair though i don't know if you can hold that once the bunkers are up and repaired. It's a prevent it from starting thing, rather than a respond to it late thing. I agree with this assessment, I've been frustrated at finding a greedy-as-possible-without-losing-straight-up option. Hearing that once its up it really is unbreakable and not just some oversight by me does clear things up. From now on I'm just going earlier pool vs T if I see no gas in the main. I had been trying 16/17 pools vs T lately but I'm finding the couple of mins they give isn't worth the risks of Ts who have no skill so they just pull their whole economy and marine rush with every resource within the first 5 minutes. I dont think thats smart. 16 pool is pretty standard, no gas openings are basically the go-to terran opener lately. The amount of times a terran is going to pull all his scvs is like, what, 1%? Your just hurting yourself economically every single game for the ever so slightly better chance of catching that all in wiith a sliiiightly better pool timing. edit: possible suggestion to what that guy did to you is simply abandon your nat and secure your main, continue on with fast upgrades on one base while you crawler push the bunkers out. If hes cut so much to KILL you, I dont think one basing it for a bit will spell doom for you especially if you get faster upgrades. I've seen destiny pull that off a number of times against similar crappy shit from t.
Its just incredibly hard to judge how behind I am or how to recover from that because of how much weirdness tends to follow. I actually did that slow crawler push into double expand once I saw he took his nat during the aggression in another game against another all-in Terran.
I had absolutely no idea how to judge when I should be expecting pushes or anything despite scouting with overlords in his main to see what the heck he was making. He ended up using hellions to tick off my expos since I was stuck on 1 base with just queen/ling for so long, and then cloaked banshees since my lair was so delayed from having no expos.
I'm trying to cross over into masters league before the end of this season so I'll need advice from high leaguers who might have faced something like this from people who know how to transition out or who might be able to tell me how you follow up and scout what they're doing. These are pretty much the only things that I fully have no clue about when I see them I just freeze up and think a big long "uhhhhhh.... SHIT" in my head.
*Edit* I dunno if masters is much different, but dia so far has been at least 1 in 3 all-ins from all 3 races. When I check their histories, most of them don't have games past 10 minutes and that makes me feel even worse for having lost to such crap players doing crap builds that I just have never seen or know what to expect.
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On July 12 2012 05:48 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 05:04 whatevername wrote:On July 11 2012 20:55 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 13:15 Bearwidme wrote:On July 11 2012 01:34 sCCrooked wrote:On July 11 2012 00:40 Bearwidme wrote:
The rough timing that a bunker can start for a bunker rush build is 2:50 (i think?) so if you aren't able to get up his ramp with a drone scout or you simply don't scout at all you should have a drone checking your natural hatch at this time. Once you establish how committed he his to doing the bunker rush (more than 1 scv = fairly all in) you should be pulling a lot of drones and targetting down the marines and building scvs. 1 or 2 marines can't kill drones without dieing quickly. It's also really important to stick to your build.. ie. Get at least 1 queen, get lings and maybe a spine if he's really all-in. If you sit there trying to micro your drones too much and you pile up 300 minerals you lose.
In regards to the ramp blocks with bunkers/pylon it's quite a simple answer, keep that drone out in front of the hatch (as long as you know there are no bunkers behind the mineral lines) and if you see an attempt at a ramp block you just stick your drone on hold position where the blocking buildings need to be then pull a lot of your drones to kill the impending marines/cannons. There's about 20 second window where these rushes can occur effectively, that scouting drone loses about 20 minerals. Are you really at a level where 20minerals is going to make a difference?
A: No. I wish you would look at the replay or at least read my post before making a response. Let me repeat what was in the post in response to yours in order: -I scouted his main. No gas. Barracks in position to make a wall had sufficient HP to not warrant suspicion. -He pulled multiple SCVs and perfectly sim citied the large ramp of my natural on Shakuras. You can't kill the SCVs because its blocked. You can't kill the marines because they're safely behind the bunker wall. -*Edit*- His SCVs sneaked around a back path so holding the zel'naga tower would've done nothing. Overlords aren't in position yet at the time of his scv move-out. -I did stick to my build. I got queens and spines and lings in response. -I did not stop making offensive units the instant the bunkers started going down. -There could be no drone micro since sim city. -Putting one drone there is insufficient to stop him. He puts down 1 cannon and then attacks the drone. When I move the drone and pull more from the line, by the time the drones from the line get down there its too late and he's sim citied the 2nd cannon in. -The window is much larger than 20 game seconds. In short I already know all the simple fixes that supposedly work but these rushes were at different timings than anything that has been mentioned or shown in detail on these forums and therefore I have great difficulty predicting these rushes (having never seen them or seen reference of them). - No gas is a warning sign that there's a possible proxy. I watched the replay and you're right, it is a different variation to a normal bunker rush, the terrible variation. It's a gimicky build that shouldn't work. In fact the only reason it did work is because your pool was 15 (ingame) seconds late. Watch the replay again and look at the timings of your queens/spines/lings and see what could have happened if you had them up 15 seconds earlier. To be fair though i don't know if you can hold that once the bunkers are up and repaired. It's a prevent it from starting thing, rather than a respond to it late thing. I agree with this assessment, I've been frustrated at finding a greedy-as-possible-without-losing-straight-up option. Hearing that once its up it really is unbreakable and not just some oversight by me does clear things up. From now on I'm just going earlier pool vs T if I see no gas in the main. I had been trying 16/17 pools vs T lately but I'm finding the couple of mins they give isn't worth the risks of Ts who have no skill so they just pull their whole economy and marine rush with every resource within the first 5 minutes. I dont think thats smart. 16 pool is pretty standard, no gas openings are basically the go-to terran opener lately. The amount of times a terran is going to pull all his scvs is like, what, 1%? Your just hurting yourself economically every single game for the ever so slightly better chance of catching that all in wiith a sliiiightly better pool timing. edit: possible suggestion to what that guy did to you is simply abandon your nat and secure your main, continue on with fast upgrades on one base while you crawler push the bunkers out. If hes cut so much to KILL you, I dont think one basing it for a bit will spell doom for you especially if you get faster upgrades. I've seen destiny pull that off a number of times against similar crappy shit from t. Its just incredibly hard to judge how behind I am or how to recover from that because of how much weirdness tends to follow. I actually did that slow crawler push into double expand once I saw he took his nat during the aggression in another game against another all-in Terran. I had absolutely no idea how to judge when I should be expecting pushes or anything despite scouting with overlords in his main to see what the heck he was making. He ended up using hellions to tick off my expos since I was stuck on 1 base with just queen/ling for so long, and then cloaked banshees since my lair was so delayed from having no expos. I'm trying to cross over into masters league before the end of this season so I'll need advice from high leaguers who might have faced something like this from people who know how to transition out or who might be able to tell me how you follow up and scout what they're doing. These are pretty much the only things that I fully have no clue about when I see them I just freeze up and think a big long "uhhhhhh.... SHIT" in my head. *Edit* I dunno if masters is much different, but dia so far has been at least 1 in 3 all-ins from all 3 races. When I check their histories, most of them don't have games past 10 minutes and that makes me feel even worse for having lost to such crap players doing crap builds that I just have never seen or know what to expect. I'm literally in the exact position you are, including race. ;] I agree its really hard to judge, but generally if you go fast upgrades they're economy wont be able to keep on par with your own upgrades. Play turtley and you upgrade advantage SHOULD snowball-- I just cant see how a terran would have the gas to double eng bay after what he did to you.
edit: that diamond feeling = your last 9 zvz's have been against a 6 pool.
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On July 12 2012 04:47 9-BiT wrote:
What is the best way for a zerg to burn money when they have some. If I play bad during the midgame I can end up with something like 1k mins, and I don't know how to spend it. With T or P you could just build production, just not sure with Z.
Midgame, add a macro hatch. Lategame, if you have enough production and gas income so that you can produce the correct army for what is happening, expo once or twice, or build a spine wall.
Hatcheries and queens are zerg production.
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EPT
