Thor First note: Please only add discussion points that relate to at least 1k+ diamonds at least, also do not spoil any GSL game results.
Baseline Optimistic theory: Thor First seems safe against everything, can be used to hit banshees, is very good against tanks in smaller numbers, especially with repair. To break a tank line, send the thors in then your tanks, letting the thors tank while you have time to siege. Can scout with barracks allowing more minerals for early CC while getting information that would have required a scan. Allows upgrades early (quick armory). Baseline Pessimistic Theory: So slow enemy will take map control. Banshees outmaneuver Thor, can escape even if scanned if only 1 Thor, 300/200 + armory, and extreme gas cost kinda suck. The main thing is the lack of any mobility, even compared to tanks. It's anti air role is just lol because the air units are so fast comparatively. Even the investment in banshee with cloak, will most likely pay for itself in requiring turrets/etc throughout the game, the thor becomes harder to replace (300/200 vs 150/100) and mix in lightly later.
If in an attacking role to soak up damage, a bunker will counter it for much cheaper. As any opponent that quickly contains a thor based build will want a bunker, which will put it on even health footing for less gas.
Against greedy bio builds, such as heavy marauder, the thor fails in all respects as the opponent will gain an economic edge, and have much higher mobility. Overall: The thor first seems to offer far less advantages compared to any other build, It really doesn't "counter" any other build extremely hard, but it does have disadvantages against banshee harass, greedy bio play, and tank contain with bunkers. While losing air control, and map control to a certain respect against most builds. I don't see any real reason to pick it over any other build, it reacts pretty poorly as well, as most gas is pumped into factory tech/armory/thor. 1/1/1 and 2/1/1 builds offer more versatility / threats.
Discussion points: Is the lack of mobility made up for by the strong points? Is the very early high investment worth it against a lot of builds? Armory cost / gas cost of thor so early. Can it really be used successfully in an attacking role, especially if the opponent places a bunker or other such structures?
This is just my preliminary thoughts on the build. I personally prefer a greedy bio style with marauders and early flanks, or banshee.w.cloak.
I was playing a game last night where the guy I was playing against went thor drop first it was really weird and he ended up containing me and winning the game.
Edit: I actually can't find the replay for some odd reason I played too many games last night. Anyways the only reason it worked was because I was so weirded out by it and didn't move out early enough he was way behind at the start when I killed his thor and dropship.
Yeah I'm not a fan of this build. Sure it worked well in my nooby days, but I threw it out when I got to diamond. I think it sets you too far behind on the essential air control. Also thors are useless vs battlecruisers
On September 20 2010 23:54 TheFinalWord wrote: Yeah I'm not a fan of this build. Sure it worked well in my nooby days, but I threw it out when I got to diamond. I think it sets you too far behind on the essential air control. Also thors are useless vs battlecruisers
Yeah I always rejoice with my TvT Battlecruiser rush when my opponent goes fast Thor.
In all seriousness, I think Thors suck TvT. You cannot really be agressive with them (unless you drop and that is so dangerous with the amount of 111 in the strategy pool) and you give up all map control and you melt to fast marauder openings, you cant really punish a FE, you cant defend drops. Bleh. Rather open cloak banshee or some Bio FE or 111 to actually have some nice stuff to work with instead of this big ass 450/300 POS that cant move. (armory factured in)
There's one advantage you've not listed which is the fast armoury. if you get +1 weapon upgrade your tanks 3 shot enemy tanks instead of 4 shots. That's fucking huge, tbh. They also 2 shot stimmed marauders instead of 3. Just a one time 100/100 upgrade for so much value.
Other then that, I really dislike the fast thor build, though I am thinking of incorporating the +weapon damage upgrades for my tanks. Cheers for watching TLO and picking that one up (he one clever Kraut, that's for goddamn sure).'
EDIT- actually you did mention this. you just didn' mention how fucking important it is. My bad.
Fast thor seems really stupid imo. I've only seen it twice, once where a thor walked up to my wall with 5 scvs and promptly got blown up by a tank and 2 marauders and once on Lz's stream where he went thor drop and just got rolled over by tank marine. Thors are just too slow vs tanks and thor drops are risky when your opponent can snipe them with decent control.
I think the problem with a fast thor build is the economics. Its a completely feasible rush if your opponent doesn't scan it (proxy armory?) but if caught can be countered quickly since marauders & tanks are much less expensive to produce.
Thors play a bigger role in TvT when you need to whittle down enemy viking numbers, other than that I don't think they're a viable opening unless you catch the opponent off guard (which happens often, but less so in your supposed 1,000+ diamond...)
The problem I see is that if your enemy counters your Thor you are pretty much behind and probably won't stop his push caus of the big resource commitment.
On September 21 2010 00:33 Komodo wrote: The problem I see is that if your enemy counters your Thor you are pretty much behind and probably won't stop his push caus of the big resource commitment.
holy shit
Thanks for this wonderful insight that if my enemy counters my unit, I will be behind. Quality so low
Basically I'm just wondering if the thor first build can actually be standard / not behind / gain advantages versus certain builds.
I understand the upgrade department but what about the loss of map control / more tanks / etc. The real hidden thing I really like is relying on no barracks unit so that bldg can be used for free scouting.
Also this isn't about gimmicky thor drops etc, but a fast 1-2 thors into tanks, no barracks unit, late starport, with a FE.
Thor first is a guaranteed expansion vs everything but the most allin 1 base bio. You say it's bad vs banshee harass, but at the end of the day he's going to have a useless tech path, no banshees (since you killed his almost for sure), and you'll have a thor and +1 starting and haven't wasted money on that starport.
Thor first is the best opening vs fast cloak banshee.
Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Thor first is a guaranteed expansion vs everything but the most allin 1 base bio. You say it's bad vs banshee harass, but at the end of the day he's going to have a useless tech path, no banshees (since you killed his almost for sure), and you'll have a thor and +1 starting and haven't wasted money on that starport.
Thor first is the best opening vs fast cloak banshee.
Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
I'm not sure. I mean I've had a ton of success with a marine drop against fast banshees. Especially if you get there either right after, or just before the banshee pops which you usually do. Then it's a case of just killing the techlab and you've pretty much won.
That, and most of the time I'd rather just build an engineering bay and a turret at each expo to hold off banshees, seems to be alot better as the banshee can usually just outfly your thor and you've wasted a scan.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Thor first is a guaranteed expansion vs everything but the most allin 1 base bio. You say it's bad vs banshee harass, but at the end of the day he's going to have a useless tech path, no banshees (since you killed his almost for sure), and you'll have a thor and +1 starting and haven't wasted money on that starport.
Thor first is the best opening vs fast cloak banshee.
Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
I would disagree, warturtle.941 NA server.
Banshee + cloak can outmaneuver thors, as a single scan will not be enough to kill the banshee. Pushing out against such a unit also requires scans. also just moving around poking at buildings will force the thor to either all in, or defend.
I don't see how it is a safer FE than say raven/bio or greedy stim bionic which can actually move around. Also proper tank contains with bunkers can still harass the heck out of a FE. It just doesn't seem favorable versus any of the main good builds. The only little edge it gets is floating barracks, and earlier upgrade, but at a pretty heavy cost.
I'm only posting this to hear insight from players that have found thor first to work.
humorous note:
Video footage of non dropped thor "timing attack" against "small armies"
absolute slaughter indeed, especially against greedy/stupid play.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
What timings are you referring to exactly? Can you name at least one? Don't make statements like these followed with the most obvious stuff like "repairing is strong".
I feel like Thor first doesn't really give you an advantage against any build. You can be even in many scenarios just because you can setup a strong defense but you can't be aggressive or harass at all. It can set you up a fast expansion but other builds can do this as well, and you can actually harass with other builds and gain an advantage that way.
It definitely doesn't counter any builds either. Cloaked banshee is a better opening that will work out just fine against Thor first because there won't be enough detection and Thors are just too immobile. Any tank or infantry builds are fine against it because of bunkers and can just expand when they see Thor or set up an early contain.
Thor is a terribad unit in this matchup, and is an especially bad opener. It had some popularity in beta vs banshee openers but ultimately was dropped because of two key reasons.
1. Its in no way cost effective. One thor will not kill a properly managed banshee with cloack. He would literally have to let the thor get right beneath him to guarantee the thor got his 4 shots to kill it. So it inevtibly plays out like this: Banshee comes in right after first thor snipers 3-4 scvs while cloaking when thor appears terran scans banshees moves out total damage 200 +270(scan) mins, terran needs 2 thors to kill the banshee when it returns. Banshee gets another 2 scvs and forces another scan and then dies. Total damage 840 minerals and forced 2 thors for another 600/400. So total cost to counter a 350/300 harass 1440/400!
2. The thor is absolutely useless after banshee play. You cant do anything to eek out some more kills for you thor. Thor drop? Too bad your starport has been delayed so and youre behind a minimum of 4 vikings making a drop a bad idea on a proactice player. Walking up the front door? Hes waaaaay ahead in tanks now too not jsut because of cost but because of thor time to build wasting precious factory time, but because his harass guaranteed dmg vs this build.
You can of course get a fast expo with a thor, but you cant defend it.
Watch TLO vs hyperdub its a textbook reason why thor openings are not the norm he plays behind in every game he does it having to capitilize on his opponent making mistakes.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
What timings are you referring to exactly? Can you name at least one? Don't make statements like these followed with the most obvious stuff like "repairing is strong".
A cloak banshee expand that continues to make banshees instead of stopping at 1 will die to a 2 thor + tank push. I've also run over aggressive bio players with the same push because they've suicided a bunch of units into a thor early on only to not kill it, basically costing me nothing.
@thisisjimmy
It's really easy to just throw up an ebay and put down 3 turrets, 1 per minline (exp and main) and 1 at your ramp.
@the poster above me
Thors 3 shot banshees for one, so you got that wrong.
Thors also ARE extremely useful after the banshee harass. They are the most hp/cost/supply of any unit T has. They're great in lower tankcount games where you can use your thors to suck up damage and take out a couple tanks while you get yours in position.
The opening I used was tank >>> thor >>> +1 and siege mode >>> expand + more tanks. You don't want to make more than 1 thor blindly. Also, fast armory for fast +1 is SO ENORMOUS. It enables you to slaughter your opponent in midgame, so while you might be "even" you're actually WAY ahead for a brief period where you have the upgrade advantage.
P.S. You say it takes 2 thors to kill 1 banshee which is beyond wrong....
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
What timings are you referring to exactly? Can you name at least one? Don't make statements like these followed with the most obvious stuff like "repairing is strong".
A cloak banshee expand that continues to make banshees instead of stopping at 1 will die to a 2 thor + tank push. I've also run over aggressive bio players with the same push because they've suicided a bunch of units into a thor early on only to not kill it, basically costing me nothing.
>_> constant banshee production expo? Bleh I'd be more worried if you found a way to lose to that.
I'll give you bio (stimmed marauders make me question this though), but you wont see a lot of that in tourny play or maybe even high diamond. Vs standard play I dont see any timings a thor can abuse.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
What timings are you referring to exactly? Can you name at least one? Don't make statements like these followed with the most obvious stuff like "repairing is strong".
A cloak banshee expand that continues to make banshees instead of stopping at 1 will die to a 2 thor + tank push. I've also run over aggressive bio players with the same push because they've suicided a bunch of units into a thor early on only to not kill it, basically costing me nothing.
@thisisjimmy
It's really easy to just throw up an ebay and put down 3 turrets, 1 per minline (exp and main) and 1 at your ramp.
@the poster above me
Thors 3 shot banshees for one, so you got that wrong.
Thors also ARE extremely useful after the banshee harass. They are the most hp/cost/supply of any unit T has. They're great in lower tankcount games where you can use your thors to suck up damage and take out a couple tanks while you get yours in position.
The opening I used was tank >>> thor >>> +1 and siege mode >>> expand + more tanks. You don't want to make more than 1 thor blindly. Also, fast armory for fast +1 is SO ENORMOUS. It enables you to slaughter your opponent in midgame, so while you might be "even" you're actually WAY ahead for a brief period where you have the upgrade advantage.
P.S. You say it takes 2 thors to kill 1 banshee which is beyond wrong....
sorry to burst your bubble but 1 turret doesn't cover a mineral line, the banshee can just hold position to the side and pick off scv's on the outside patches and gas.
May bad banshees are three shot able by thor, letting your banshee die to a single thor is still bad control, theres a reason why TLO opens with 2 thor floop.
Can a thor 1v1 a banshee yes, but can a thor thor kill a banshee fast enough before it escapes? No you need 2 to stop the harass or else theyll keep coming back for the free kills.
Fast armory is awesome and upgrades are great, but the thor isnt worth it, Id rather see another approah into getting armory tech that thor. Cutting the starport is not the way to do IMO.
EPT![[image loading]](http://us.media.blizzard.com/sc2/media/artwork/unit_terran_thor-large.jpg)
