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I played a, I think 1200 terran on blistering sands. He went fast thor with an expo and a few maurders. I luckily back door'ed him with 10 marines and two tanks and took the thor and workers down.
Thors are really effective IMO in TvT, but the lack of mobility and how tanks can blast them kinda hurts.
sorry to burst your bubble but 1 turret doesn't cover a mineral line, the banshee can just hold position to the side and pick off scv's on the outside patches and gas. Very very true. I put 3 in a triangle around my minerals and main and 75% of the time against real aggressive harassers that isn't enough. They still find the flaw and pick off a refinery.
It definitely doesn't counter any builds either. Cloaked banshee is a better opening that will work out just fine against Thor first because there won't be enough detection and Thors are just too immobile. Any tank or infantry builds are fine against it because of bunkers and can just expand when they see Thor or set up an early contain. I think the build only fleshes out as you get more and more thors. Because most people transition to tank/maurder/viking/raven couldn't one persay just get a few ravens and PDD + mass air abuse the thors? Doesn't PDD stop thor fire, and viking fire, and maurader fire...
It's really easy to just throw up an ebay and put down 3 turrets, 1 per minline (exp and main) and 1 at your ramp.
425 minerals that aren't spent on units, or a new thor, or a new expo, or more tanks. Maurder heavy build, in my mind, will push with stim and shells and bring the thor down quickly
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I've been going Thor first into siege tanks. The Thor is only good against small groups of units and people who do a push right after they get tanks. If the map is small, you might be able to kill a siege expanding player's command center with the Thor. The Thor is also really good for setting up an expansion since Tanks can get sniped by marauders while a repair Thor actually does fairly decent vs early bioballs if you have some marines to tank for it.
The main issue with getting a Thor though is that you won't have vikings. That means spending lots of minerals on turrets. This isn't too bad because you'll be rolling around in min.
You usually have to start a Ebay right after a Thor too. Is Thor first worth it? Depends on the map. For example, close positions on LT means you can take down the natural expo or kill his first tank if he parks it on the cliff.
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I used to be a big fan of Thor first but I've decided lately that it's unviable at very high levels of play.
My usual opening is a 1/1/1 thor. The armory goes down as soon as the factory is done, I open with a viking to scout and intercept banshees and then a medivac. When my thor pops, I have a thor, a medivac, a viking, and some bio.
Against "good" players (i.e. 1300-1600 diamond), my build would hard-counter banshees pretty well. I'd just get two turrets up and then counter-drop on their base. Usually they'll be defenseless, and I'll do lots of damage with my thor (I managed to kill about 15 of MurDeR's SCVs + a tank and a banshee with one Thor following a banshee rush in one showmatch).
I thought this was fine until my thor opening got spanked by MorroW and qxc. MorroW and qxc both did the exact same build to me, which was a fast banshee -> expo. In the first game against MorroW, I held off his banshees fine, then went for a counter drop. The drop did decent damage (racked up around 9 kills on my thor, including a tank and a banshee), but the banshee -> expo timing is faster than the thor -> expo timing (because it costs more to get an armory + thor than a banshee, and I need a medivac to counter-drop). So I got out-macroed pretty quickly.
Against qxc, he just saw my thor opening, killed some SCVs before he lost his banshee, canceled cloak, and made a tank and expoed very quickly. One tank beats a thor with micro, you just pop shots and run back to repair. Once again because of the thor cost my expo is later, and because good players can micro well, I can't end the game immediately. So I get outmacroed.
I'm starting to think banshees are simply the superior method in TvT due to Terran's poor detection capabilities (ravens are incredibly expensive as are turrets + ebay).
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lol flop i was reading posts and waiting for you to tell everyone how great this build is. this build is godlike providing ur strategy is put in place correctly. i personally prefer thors over tanks because by the time u get a tank out, i can get a thor out -- who will win? me (with my THOooorrr).
if u go fast banshee u basically are not making any heavy ground and when i scout that *which i most likely will, i'll just run u over because i'll reach ur base before ur banshee comes out. it's not like the thor comes alone. i believe that the thor gives u ground control much better than tanks (especially with a medivac handy, they can make for very mobile death machines). i've won countless times against terrans who are 800ish diamond when i'm like 600? cuz i don't play that much because i built thors and they didn't. and after i expo, i pretty much use OC to scan around for extra bases because minerals should be flowing in quite nicely already since tech requires gas anyway, u dont need all that many minerals if u don't have the gas to provide for and making marines just throws away ur supply if u make too many.
edit: i notice a lot of people try to use the thor to directly attack -- i tend to use the thor to do some early harass or good defense with seiged tanks -- i never directly attack the terran army unless i'm sure my thor army will come out on top.
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I don't understand how you can punish a FE with a thor. By the time your thor arrives on anything but close positions he will have had plenty of time to put marauders in bunkers or w/e he wants. He may even just dance around your thor and then you are defenseless in your expansion. Are you gonna pull 10 SCVs with your thor? :/ Any FE (banshee or bio or 111) is faster than a thor expo and then youre behind in economy with a big slow unit. I don't see the benefits in that. TvT is so much about bio at the moment. Mech players just get abused and I've seen 0 solid pros go for mech / viking anymore.
edit:
I also think a 2 rax fast stim MM push into expand will punish the shit out of a fast thor since it hits before the thor comes out and is almost guaranteed to do damage, while also putting the player ahead economically.
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so ur walking the thor to the FE base? how bout bringing a medivac to abuse the fact that ur opponent went all ground units so i can drop/pickup my thor back and forth to his base. then as he moves his army back to help his mineral line i'll go in and seige/contain.
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On September 21 2010 07:59 ChickenLips wrote:
I also think a 2 rax fast stim MM push into expand will punish the shit out of a fast thor since it hits before the thor comes out and is almost guaranteed to do damage, while also putting the player ahead economically.
All you need is a bunker to stop that, all bio-heavy terran openings are terrible and susceptible to banshee rushes.
I really don't get your comment that TvT is about bio because it seems like TvT is all about banshees at the moment. Most top terran players open banshee. I played qxc just the other day and he opened banshee and transitioned into tanks/vikings.
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On September 21 2010 08:29 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 07:59 ChickenLips wrote:
I also think a 2 rax fast stim MM push into expand will punish the shit out of a fast thor since it hits before the thor comes out and is almost guaranteed to do damage, while also putting the player ahead economically. All you need is a bunker to stop that, all bio-heavy terran openings are terrible and susceptible to banshee rushes. I really don't get your comment that TvT is about bio because it seems like TvT is all about banshees at the moment. Most top terran players open banshee. I played qxc just the other day and he opened banshee and transitioned into tanks/vikings.
Banshee with our without cloak is a great solid opener that gives map control. (with preferably since getting permanent detection is such a pain in the arse) However midgame almost all non-korean Terrans I've seen went Bio with some tank support (depending on the map).
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On September 21 2010 14:04 ChickenLips wrote:
Banshee with our without cloak is a great solid opener that gives map control. (with preferably since getting permanent detection is such a pain in the arse) However midgame almost all non-korean Terrans I've seen went Bio with some tank support (depending on the map).
The thing that really sucks about banshees is that even if you know the opponent is going banshees, they are still cost-effective.
One banshee without cloak: 150/100
Now consider that you see this banshee. How do you counter it? First of all, you have to get detection because you don't know if they're getting cloak. For ebay + turrets you're looking at at least 325 minerals, a raven, at least 100/200. Then, if the banshee comes into your base from a random angle and starts hitting SCVs, you're going to lose at least 1-2 before you even get your viking/thor/etc there to defend. The banshee can then proceed to suicide while killing scvs, dropping one every 2-3 seconds. By time it dies, you're lucky if it kills 4-5 scvs and not more.
You end up paying a lot even if you react appropriately.
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On September 21 2010 14:38 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 14:04 ChickenLips wrote:
Banshee with our without cloak is a great solid opener that gives map control. (with preferably since getting permanent detection is such a pain in the arse) However midgame almost all non-korean Terrans I've seen went Bio with some tank support (depending on the map). The thing that really sucks about banshees is that even if you know the opponent is going banshees, they are still cost-effective. One banshee without cloak: 150/100 Now consider that you see this banshee. How do you counter it? First of all, you have to get detection because you don't know if they're getting cloak. For ebay + turrets you're looking at at least 325 minerals, a raven, at least 100/200. Then, if the banshee comes into your base from a random angle and starts hitting SCVs, you're going to lose at least 1-2 before you even get your viking/thor/etc there to defend. The banshee can then proceed to suicide while killing scvs, dropping one every 2-3 seconds. By time it dies, you're lucky if it kills 4-5 scvs and not more. You end up paying a lot even if you react appropriately.
Those calculations ignore a lot of factors like opportunity cost, cost of starport, of tech lab, of the scv not mining while constructing the starport, of gas being much more valuable than minerals, since it is both more slowly mined and detrimental in mid and late game to the terran army, of an engineering bay being both needed for upgrades and to gain local air control without investing in air units. The turrets also negate most Viking scouting and harass etc. Ravens are super useful in Viking and Marauder battles (both units seen in 99% of TvTs), they can also be used to detect cloaked ghosts etc.
It isn't as cut and dry and subtract or add ressources to build costs. If you just waltz into his base with 3 rax MM he can have all the cloak banshees he wants if all his SCVs are dead.
I see pros disliking fast banshee openers more and more. Good Terrans will scout it and have a Viking ready and a Raven not many seconds after cloak has kicked in. (Fast Raven openers also are becoming more popular in TvT) Then he has a bigger army than you, while all the tech is wasted and he can pretty much do what he wants. Attack / Contain / Expand or all 3 at once, since you will not have much on the ground that threatens him.
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wrong about banshee being shut down so easily
It requires a really good turret spread to stop banshees with just turrets. If you watch a better TvT player like SeleCT, who is about as good as anyone outside korea in TvT. He will use a 2 banshee opener with cloak even against raven builds and still be useful.
With raven/viking you have other problems such as 2 banshees harassing you when you expand, or two coming in at different angles. MorroW was also really pressured by this type of play. Banshees in general are usually cost efficient, even against raven/viking builds you can still manage 7-9 kills and waste scans. Obviously in TvT and any matchup you have to mix up your strategies but double banshee fast cloak is almost always solid or advantageous.
Thor First is something I just don't understand why you would ever go it. It just seems like the occasions it does good are ones another build would have done better. I just fail to see any edge / pressure it creates except in hypotheticals. You don't have to get thor to get an armory + upgrades..
Hypothetically they are decent on ground, and have good anti air.. I just see them being exploited by more finesse units and too clunky.
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On September 21 2010 21:41 ChickenLips wrote:
It isn't as cut and dry and subtract or add ressources to build costs. If you just waltz into his base with 3 rax MM he can have all the cloak banshees he wants if all his SCVs are dead.
I see pros disliking fast banshee openers more and more. Good Terrans will scout it and have a Viking ready and a Raven not many seconds after cloak has kicked in. (Fast Raven openers also are becoming more popular in TvT) Then he has a bigger army than you, while all the tech is wasted and he can pretty much do what he wants. Attack / Contain / Expand or all 3 at once, since you will not have much on the ground that threatens him.
You're not understanding that all 2-3 rax Terran openers are garbage. Nobody does them because all you have to do to stop them is bunker up + repair and then shred them with banshees. The only way 3rax MM is viable is if you hide two of your raxes, which basically makes it a cheese.
Almost every top Terran player currently opens banshees.
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Im 1400 terran and thor push on steppes is my opening of choice in TvT and sometimes in TvP. Its incredible strong. Fast thor is only really countered by MM play.
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It seems that when you attack right after the first thor, none of their units can kill your thor so you kill off their army. It seems like timing attack mostly.
And if your opponent goes banshees, thor still do great against them because of their stupidly long range.
I think thor might beat banshee (but I will need to test more) but loses to 3 rax marauder. Luckily 3 rax marauder is pretty bad and loses to banshee; and you can scout them before having to make a choice of whether to go banshee or thor.
i dont know if any of this mad sense, my brain is kinda bleh...
Heres me thor rushing.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=159071
I dont think it was a very good game though. I haven't been able to play as much since school started
EDIT:
second replay against 3 rax.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=159083
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It seems like if it didn't work immediately it would be super easy for an opponent to easily counter. Just pump some stim barracks units and rip right through it.
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I believe this works very well against the four marine + hellion timing attack. I think, key word think as I stopped playing terran right before 1.1.2, that the thor timing comes right as the enemy's siege completes or right before if they transition to tank/viking.
However, this build seems to be easily stopped by one bunker + 2 marauders.
However, if using marauders instead of marines in the timing attack, I think it could work out well.
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I think Thors are feasible in TvT, but I still think Siege Tanks/Vikings will rule most of the time. It is way more mobile. Vikings can spot for Tanks and harass. It's pretty Cost effective. You can make 2x Vikings out of a Reactored Starport, and easily switch to bio with the same Starport by making Medivacs.
I grinded Thor builds for a while, and in my experience, that initial (and continuing) investment in a real expensive unit that's really strong, but really slow, making it hard to deploy makes it really hard to play right. Everytime I expanded, I feared my opponent was 1+ expansion ahead, and it was hard to scout because 1. good opponents knowing you're going Thors are going to park some units in the front of your base to prevent SCVs or Marines from scouting and 2. you need MULEs to support your expensive Thors. So most times, until you are just about to attack, you are pretty much blind.
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I lost to it once, purely because of map control and small map. And thats about how you make it work. If its long distances between bases your dead, when your at his front but it can actually be kind of good vs Tanks if u just go into his ramp and repair -> kill his army.
I wouldnt think of it possible on any other map than steeps or close metra/delta and if your up against 1700+ you instant loose.
Soo it works but u need suprise moment and fast aggresion. Otherwise you'll be blown to pieces.
I would also suggest hidden armory 4sure
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Well everyone seems to be hating on this so I guess I will try to take the otherside (1700 terran).
I have generally been opening fast banshees every game, but people are getting better at reacting to it and I have found it to be working less often of late.
So I have started tinkering around with the long forgotten thorship and having some reasonable success. Here is what works for me.
Open like fast tanks but when factory ends build a armory...hide on the side of your base obviously and they won't see anything out of the ordinary. Then build a starport.
If you scout banshees, forget the dropship and go for a fast raven, then get the dropship.
Why this works. Most player's dont go tank viking anymore, tank bio/expand or cloaked banshees are pretty much the norm imo. So if its not cloaked banshees then I generally drop my thor right by the mineral line and pick off as many scvs as I can, which is usually 3-4. Next I can take out the refinerys pretty quick which is VERY damaging if their army isnt nearby.
My other objective in the drop is to abuse the thorship with cliffs,walls whatever to wittle down his army which is pretty easy at this stage in the game as his army should be small and your thor can one shot some marines or quickly kill a tank, meanwhile I have another thor and 2 dropship building back at base and a second rax down with a reactor on my first rax to mineral dump mass marines. I take my first thor back to base, repair him and then my next drop is 2 thors +scvs/marines, while my marines rush in to their expansion while their army is distracted chasing my thors around. If they have vikings they generally come before the army so drop your thors and have them kill the vikings.
This has worked out for me so far, but I have only tested it a couple of times. Be sure to make alot of marines because if they get vikings to counter your drops and then just maurader spam and rush your expansion you might be in trouble.
I have been able to do significant damage every game that I have done this drop so far, but lost once to mass mauarders, however I macroed terribly in that game and If i had spammed about 20 more marines it would certainly have gone much differently.
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Fast thor loses if scouted to a simple 2 rax marauder. Really cheesy play (relying too much on not being scouted). I would say at 1500+ if it gets scouted, abandon the strategy and go standard.
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EPT
