Thor First note: Please only add discussion points that relate to at least 1k+ diamonds at least, also do not spoil any GSL game results.
Baseline Optimistic theory: Thor First seems safe against everything, can be used to hit banshees, is very good against tanks in smaller numbers, especially with repair. To break a tank line, send the thors in then your tanks, letting the thors tank while you have time to siege. Can scout with barracks allowing more minerals for early CC while getting information that would have required a scan. Allows upgrades early (quick armory). Baseline Pessimistic Theory: So slow enemy will take map control. Banshees outmaneuver Thor, can escape even if scanned if only 1 Thor, 300/200 + armory, and extreme gas cost kinda suck. The main thing is the lack of any mobility, even compared to tanks. It's anti air role is just lol because the air units are so fast comparatively. Even the investment in banshee with cloak, will most likely pay for itself in requiring turrets/etc throughout the game, the thor becomes harder to replace (300/200 vs 150/100) and mix in lightly later.
If in an attacking role to soak up damage, a bunker will counter it for much cheaper. As any opponent that quickly contains a thor based build will want a bunker, which will put it on even health footing for less gas.
Against greedy bio builds, such as heavy marauder, the thor fails in all respects as the opponent will gain an economic edge, and have much higher mobility. Overall: The thor first seems to offer far less advantages compared to any other build, It really doesn't "counter" any other build extremely hard, but it does have disadvantages against banshee harass, greedy bio play, and tank contain with bunkers. While losing air control, and map control to a certain respect against most builds. I don't see any real reason to pick it over any other build, it reacts pretty poorly as well, as most gas is pumped into factory tech/armory/thor. 1/1/1 and 2/1/1 builds offer more versatility / threats.
Discussion points: Is the lack of mobility made up for by the strong points? Is the very early high investment worth it against a lot of builds? Armory cost / gas cost of thor so early. Can it really be used successfully in an attacking role, especially if the opponent places a bunker or other such structures?
This is just my preliminary thoughts on the build. I personally prefer a greedy bio style with marauders and early flanks, or banshee.w.cloak.
I was playing a game last night where the guy I was playing against went thor drop first it was really weird and he ended up containing me and winning the game.
Edit: I actually can't find the replay for some odd reason I played too many games last night. Anyways the only reason it worked was because I was so weirded out by it and didn't move out early enough he was way behind at the start when I killed his thor and dropship.
Yeah I'm not a fan of this build. Sure it worked well in my nooby days, but I threw it out when I got to diamond. I think it sets you too far behind on the essential air control. Also thors are useless vs battlecruisers
On September 20 2010 23:54 TheFinalWord wrote: Yeah I'm not a fan of this build. Sure it worked well in my nooby days, but I threw it out when I got to diamond. I think it sets you too far behind on the essential air control. Also thors are useless vs battlecruisers
Yeah I always rejoice with my TvT Battlecruiser rush when my opponent goes fast Thor.
In all seriousness, I think Thors suck TvT. You cannot really be agressive with them (unless you drop and that is so dangerous with the amount of 111 in the strategy pool) and you give up all map control and you melt to fast marauder openings, you cant really punish a FE, you cant defend drops. Bleh. Rather open cloak banshee or some Bio FE or 111 to actually have some nice stuff to work with instead of this big ass 450/300 POS that cant move. (armory factured in)
There's one advantage you've not listed which is the fast armoury. if you get +1 weapon upgrade your tanks 3 shot enemy tanks instead of 4 shots. That's fucking huge, tbh. They also 2 shot stimmed marauders instead of 3. Just a one time 100/100 upgrade for so much value.
Other then that, I really dislike the fast thor build, though I am thinking of incorporating the +weapon damage upgrades for my tanks. Cheers for watching TLO and picking that one up (he one clever Kraut, that's for goddamn sure).'
EDIT- actually you did mention this. you just didn' mention how fucking important it is. My bad.
Fast thor seems really stupid imo. I've only seen it twice, once where a thor walked up to my wall with 5 scvs and promptly got blown up by a tank and 2 marauders and once on Lz's stream where he went thor drop and just got rolled over by tank marine. Thors are just too slow vs tanks and thor drops are risky when your opponent can snipe them with decent control.
I think the problem with a fast thor build is the economics. Its a completely feasible rush if your opponent doesn't scan it (proxy armory?) but if caught can be countered quickly since marauders & tanks are much less expensive to produce.
Thors play a bigger role in TvT when you need to whittle down enemy viking numbers, other than that I don't think they're a viable opening unless you catch the opponent off guard (which happens often, but less so in your supposed 1,000+ diamond...)
The problem I see is that if your enemy counters your Thor you are pretty much behind and probably won't stop his push caus of the big resource commitment.
On September 21 2010 00:33 Komodo wrote: The problem I see is that if your enemy counters your Thor you are pretty much behind and probably won't stop his push caus of the big resource commitment.
holy shit
Thanks for this wonderful insight that if my enemy counters my unit, I will be behind. Quality so low
Basically I'm just wondering if the thor first build can actually be standard / not behind / gain advantages versus certain builds.
I understand the upgrade department but what about the loss of map control / more tanks / etc. The real hidden thing I really like is relying on no barracks unit so that bldg can be used for free scouting.
Also this isn't about gimmicky thor drops etc, but a fast 1-2 thors into tanks, no barracks unit, late starport, with a FE.
Thor first is a guaranteed expansion vs everything but the most allin 1 base bio. You say it's bad vs banshee harass, but at the end of the day he's going to have a useless tech path, no banshees (since you killed his almost for sure), and you'll have a thor and +1 starting and haven't wasted money on that starport.
Thor first is the best opening vs fast cloak banshee.
Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Thor first is a guaranteed expansion vs everything but the most allin 1 base bio. You say it's bad vs banshee harass, but at the end of the day he's going to have a useless tech path, no banshees (since you killed his almost for sure), and you'll have a thor and +1 starting and haven't wasted money on that starport.
Thor first is the best opening vs fast cloak banshee.
Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
I'm not sure. I mean I've had a ton of success with a marine drop against fast banshees. Especially if you get there either right after, or just before the banshee pops which you usually do. Then it's a case of just killing the techlab and you've pretty much won.
That, and most of the time I'd rather just build an engineering bay and a turret at each expo to hold off banshees, seems to be alot better as the banshee can usually just outfly your thor and you've wasted a scan.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Thor first is a guaranteed expansion vs everything but the most allin 1 base bio. You say it's bad vs banshee harass, but at the end of the day he's going to have a useless tech path, no banshees (since you killed his almost for sure), and you'll have a thor and +1 starting and haven't wasted money on that starport.
Thor first is the best opening vs fast cloak banshee.
Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
I would disagree, warturtle.941 NA server.
Banshee + cloak can outmaneuver thors, as a single scan will not be enough to kill the banshee. Pushing out against such a unit also requires scans. also just moving around poking at buildings will force the thor to either all in, or defend.
I don't see how it is a safer FE than say raven/bio or greedy stim bionic which can actually move around. Also proper tank contains with bunkers can still harass the heck out of a FE. It just doesn't seem favorable versus any of the main good builds. The only little edge it gets is floating barracks, and earlier upgrade, but at a pretty heavy cost.
I'm only posting this to hear insight from players that have found thor first to work.
humorous note:
Video footage of non dropped thor "timing attack" against "small armies"
absolute slaughter indeed, especially against greedy/stupid play.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
What timings are you referring to exactly? Can you name at least one? Don't make statements like these followed with the most obvious stuff like "repairing is strong".
I feel like Thor first doesn't really give you an advantage against any build. You can be even in many scenarios just because you can setup a strong defense but you can't be aggressive or harass at all. It can set you up a fast expansion but other builds can do this as well, and you can actually harass with other builds and gain an advantage that way.
It definitely doesn't counter any builds either. Cloaked banshee is a better opening that will work out just fine against Thor first because there won't be enough detection and Thors are just too immobile. Any tank or infantry builds are fine against it because of bunkers and can just expand when they see Thor or set up an early contain.
Thor is a terribad unit in this matchup, and is an especially bad opener. It had some popularity in beta vs banshee openers but ultimately was dropped because of two key reasons.
1. Its in no way cost effective. One thor will not kill a properly managed banshee with cloack. He would literally have to let the thor get right beneath him to guarantee the thor got his 4 shots to kill it. So it inevtibly plays out like this: Banshee comes in right after first thor snipers 3-4 scvs while cloaking when thor appears terran scans banshees moves out total damage 200 +270(scan) mins, terran needs 2 thors to kill the banshee when it returns. Banshee gets another 2 scvs and forces another scan and then dies. Total damage 840 minerals and forced 2 thors for another 600/400. So total cost to counter a 350/300 harass 1440/400!
2. The thor is absolutely useless after banshee play. You cant do anything to eek out some more kills for you thor. Thor drop? Too bad your starport has been delayed so and youre behind a minimum of 4 vikings making a drop a bad idea on a proactice player. Walking up the front door? Hes waaaaay ahead in tanks now too not jsut because of cost but because of thor time to build wasting precious factory time, but because his harass guaranteed dmg vs this build.
You can of course get a fast expo with a thor, but you cant defend it.
Watch TLO vs hyperdub its a textbook reason why thor openings are not the norm he plays behind in every game he does it having to capitilize on his opponent making mistakes.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
What timings are you referring to exactly? Can you name at least one? Don't make statements like these followed with the most obvious stuff like "repairing is strong".
A cloak banshee expand that continues to make banshees instead of stopping at 1 will die to a 2 thor + tank push. I've also run over aggressive bio players with the same push because they've suicided a bunch of units into a thor early on only to not kill it, basically costing me nothing.
@thisisjimmy
It's really easy to just throw up an ebay and put down 3 turrets, 1 per minline (exp and main) and 1 at your ramp.
@the poster above me
Thors 3 shot banshees for one, so you got that wrong.
Thors also ARE extremely useful after the banshee harass. They are the most hp/cost/supply of any unit T has. They're great in lower tankcount games where you can use your thors to suck up damage and take out a couple tanks while you get yours in position.
The opening I used was tank >>> thor >>> +1 and siege mode >>> expand + more tanks. You don't want to make more than 1 thor blindly. Also, fast armory for fast +1 is SO ENORMOUS. It enables you to slaughter your opponent in midgame, so while you might be "even" you're actually WAY ahead for a brief period where you have the upgrade advantage.
P.S. You say it takes 2 thors to kill 1 banshee which is beyond wrong....
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
What timings are you referring to exactly? Can you name at least one? Don't make statements like these followed with the most obvious stuff like "repairing is strong".
A cloak banshee expand that continues to make banshees instead of stopping at 1 will die to a 2 thor + tank push. I've also run over aggressive bio players with the same push because they've suicided a bunch of units into a thor early on only to not kill it, basically costing me nothing.
>_> constant banshee production expo? Bleh I'd be more worried if you found a way to lose to that.
I'll give you bio (stimmed marauders make me question this though), but you wont see a lot of that in tourny play or maybe even high diamond. Vs standard play I dont see any timings a thor can abuse.
On September 21 2010 00:40 Floophead_III wrote: Anyone who says you can't be aggressive obviously doesn't know timing windows. You can easily push with a couple tanks and a thor and a few marines + scvs and completely slaughter small armies at no loss. Repair is so strong on thors. It's very easy to simply contain and crush your opponent if he suicides units early or plays greedy/stupid.
What timings are you referring to exactly? Can you name at least one? Don't make statements like these followed with the most obvious stuff like "repairing is strong".
A cloak banshee expand that continues to make banshees instead of stopping at 1 will die to a 2 thor + tank push. I've also run over aggressive bio players with the same push because they've suicided a bunch of units into a thor early on only to not kill it, basically costing me nothing.
@thisisjimmy
It's really easy to just throw up an ebay and put down 3 turrets, 1 per minline (exp and main) and 1 at your ramp.
@the poster above me
Thors 3 shot banshees for one, so you got that wrong.
Thors also ARE extremely useful after the banshee harass. They are the most hp/cost/supply of any unit T has. They're great in lower tankcount games where you can use your thors to suck up damage and take out a couple tanks while you get yours in position.
The opening I used was tank >>> thor >>> +1 and siege mode >>> expand + more tanks. You don't want to make more than 1 thor blindly. Also, fast armory for fast +1 is SO ENORMOUS. It enables you to slaughter your opponent in midgame, so while you might be "even" you're actually WAY ahead for a brief period where you have the upgrade advantage.
P.S. You say it takes 2 thors to kill 1 banshee which is beyond wrong....
sorry to burst your bubble but 1 turret doesn't cover a mineral line, the banshee can just hold position to the side and pick off scv's on the outside patches and gas.
May bad banshees are three shot able by thor, letting your banshee die to a single thor is still bad control, theres a reason why TLO opens with 2 thor floop.
Can a thor 1v1 a banshee yes, but can a thor thor kill a banshee fast enough before it escapes? No you need 2 to stop the harass or else theyll keep coming back for the free kills.
Fast armory is awesome and upgrades are great, but the thor isnt worth it, Id rather see another approah into getting armory tech that thor. Cutting the starport is not the way to do IMO.
I played a, I think 1200 terran on blistering sands. He went fast thor with an expo and a few maurders. I luckily back door'ed him with 10 marines and two tanks and took the thor and workers down.
Thors are really effective IMO in TvT, but the lack of mobility and how tanks can blast them kinda hurts.
sorry to burst your bubble but 1 turret doesn't cover a mineral line, the banshee can just hold position to the side and pick off scv's on the outside patches and gas.
Very very true. I put 3 in a triangle around my minerals and main and 75% of the time against real aggressive harassers that isn't enough. They still find the flaw and pick off a refinery.
It definitely doesn't counter any builds either. Cloaked banshee is a better opening that will work out just fine against Thor first because there won't be enough detection and Thors are just too immobile. Any tank or infantry builds are fine against it because of bunkers and can just expand when they see Thor or set up an early contain.
I think the build only fleshes out as you get more and more thors. Because most people transition to tank/maurder/viking/raven couldn't one persay just get a few ravens and PDD + mass air abuse the thors? Doesn't PDD stop thor fire, and viking fire, and maurader fire...
It's really easy to just throw up an ebay and put down 3 turrets, 1 per minline (exp and main) and 1 at your ramp.
425 minerals that aren't spent on units, or a new thor, or a new expo, or more tanks. Maurder heavy build, in my mind, will push with stim and shells and bring the thor down quickly
I've been going Thor first into siege tanks. The Thor is only good against small groups of units and people who do a push right after they get tanks. If the map is small, you might be able to kill a siege expanding player's command center with the Thor. The Thor is also really good for setting up an expansion since Tanks can get sniped by marauders while a repair Thor actually does fairly decent vs early bioballs if you have some marines to tank for it.
The main issue with getting a Thor though is that you won't have vikings. That means spending lots of minerals on turrets. This isn't too bad because you'll be rolling around in min.
You usually have to start a Ebay right after a Thor too. Is Thor first worth it? Depends on the map. For example, close positions on LT means you can take down the natural expo or kill his first tank if he parks it on the cliff.
I used to be a big fan of Thor first but I've decided lately that it's unviable at very high levels of play.
My usual opening is a 1/1/1 thor. The armory goes down as soon as the factory is done, I open with a viking to scout and intercept banshees and then a medivac. When my thor pops, I have a thor, a medivac, a viking, and some bio.
Against "good" players (i.e. 1300-1600 diamond), my build would hard-counter banshees pretty well. I'd just get two turrets up and then counter-drop on their base. Usually they'll be defenseless, and I'll do lots of damage with my thor (I managed to kill about 15 of MurDeR's SCVs + a tank and a banshee with one Thor following a banshee rush in one showmatch).
I thought this was fine until my thor opening got spanked by MorroW and qxc. MorroW and qxc both did the exact same build to me, which was a fast banshee -> expo. In the first game against MorroW, I held off his banshees fine, then went for a counter drop. The drop did decent damage (racked up around 9 kills on my thor, including a tank and a banshee), but the banshee -> expo timing is faster than the thor -> expo timing (because it costs more to get an armory + thor than a banshee, and I need a medivac to counter-drop). So I got out-macroed pretty quickly.
Against qxc, he just saw my thor opening, killed some SCVs before he lost his banshee, canceled cloak, and made a tank and expoed very quickly. One tank beats a thor with micro, you just pop shots and run back to repair. Once again because of the thor cost my expo is later, and because good players can micro well, I can't end the game immediately. So I get outmacroed.
I'm starting to think banshees are simply the superior method in TvT due to Terran's poor detection capabilities (ravens are incredibly expensive as are turrets + ebay).
lol flop i was reading posts and waiting for you to tell everyone how great this build is. this build is godlike providing ur strategy is put in place correctly. i personally prefer thors over tanks because by the time u get a tank out, i can get a thor out -- who will win? me (with my THOooorrr).
if u go fast banshee u basically are not making any heavy ground and when i scout that *which i most likely will, i'll just run u over because i'll reach ur base before ur banshee comes out. it's not like the thor comes alone. i believe that the thor gives u ground control much better than tanks (especially with a medivac handy, they can make for very mobile death machines). i've won countless times against terrans who are 800ish diamond when i'm like 600? cuz i don't play that much because i built thors and they didn't. and after i expo, i pretty much use OC to scan around for extra bases because minerals should be flowing in quite nicely already since tech requires gas anyway, u dont need all that many minerals if u don't have the gas to provide for and making marines just throws away ur supply if u make too many.
edit: i notice a lot of people try to use the thor to directly attack -- i tend to use the thor to do some early harass or good defense with seiged tanks -- i never directly attack the terran army unless i'm sure my thor army will come out on top.
I don't understand how you can punish a FE with a thor. By the time your thor arrives on anything but close positions he will have had plenty of time to put marauders in bunkers or w/e he wants. He may even just dance around your thor and then you are defenseless in your expansion. Are you gonna pull 10 SCVs with your thor? :/ Any FE (banshee or bio or 111) is faster than a thor expo and then youre behind in economy with a big slow unit. I don't see the benefits in that. TvT is so much about bio at the moment. Mech players just get abused and I've seen 0 solid pros go for mech / viking anymore.
edit:
I also think a 2 rax fast stim MM push into expand will punish the shit out of a fast thor since it hits before the thor comes out and is almost guaranteed to do damage, while also putting the player ahead economically.
so ur walking the thor to the FE base? how bout bringing a medivac to abuse the fact that ur opponent went all ground units so i can drop/pickup my thor back and forth to his base. then as he moves his army back to help his mineral line i'll go in and seige/contain.
On September 21 2010 07:59 ChickenLips wrote: I also think a 2 rax fast stim MM push into expand will punish the shit out of a fast thor since it hits before the thor comes out and is almost guaranteed to do damage, while also putting the player ahead economically.
All you need is a bunker to stop that, all bio-heavy terran openings are terrible and susceptible to banshee rushes.
I really don't get your comment that TvT is about bio because it seems like TvT is all about banshees at the moment. Most top terran players open banshee. I played qxc just the other day and he opened banshee and transitioned into tanks/vikings.
On September 21 2010 07:59 ChickenLips wrote: I also think a 2 rax fast stim MM push into expand will punish the shit out of a fast thor since it hits before the thor comes out and is almost guaranteed to do damage, while also putting the player ahead economically.
All you need is a bunker to stop that, all bio-heavy terran openings are terrible and susceptible to banshee rushes.
I really don't get your comment that TvT is about bio because it seems like TvT is all about banshees at the moment. Most top terran players open banshee. I played qxc just the other day and he opened banshee and transitioned into tanks/vikings.
Banshee with our without cloak is a great solid opener that gives map control. (with preferably since getting permanent detection is such a pain in the arse) However midgame almost all non-korean Terrans I've seen went Bio with some tank support (depending on the map).
On September 21 2010 14:04 ChickenLips wrote: Banshee with our without cloak is a great solid opener that gives map control. (with preferably since getting permanent detection is such a pain in the arse) However midgame almost all non-korean Terrans I've seen went Bio with some tank support (depending on the map).
The thing that really sucks about banshees is that even if you know the opponent is going banshees, they are still cost-effective.
One banshee without cloak: 150/100
Now consider that you see this banshee. How do you counter it? First of all, you have to get detection because you don't know if they're getting cloak. For ebay + turrets you're looking at at least 325 minerals, a raven, at least 100/200. Then, if the banshee comes into your base from a random angle and starts hitting SCVs, you're going to lose at least 1-2 before you even get your viking/thor/etc there to defend. The banshee can then proceed to suicide while killing scvs, dropping one every 2-3 seconds. By time it dies, you're lucky if it kills 4-5 scvs and not more.
You end up paying a lot even if you react appropriately.
On September 21 2010 14:04 ChickenLips wrote: Banshee with our without cloak is a great solid opener that gives map control. (with preferably since getting permanent detection is such a pain in the arse) However midgame almost all non-korean Terrans I've seen went Bio with some tank support (depending on the map).
The thing that really sucks about banshees is that even if you know the opponent is going banshees, they are still cost-effective.
One banshee without cloak: 150/100
Now consider that you see this banshee. How do you counter it? First of all, you have to get detection because you don't know if they're getting cloak. For ebay + turrets you're looking at at least 325 minerals, a raven, at least 100/200. Then, if the banshee comes into your base from a random angle and starts hitting SCVs, you're going to lose at least 1-2 before you even get your viking/thor/etc there to defend. The banshee can then proceed to suicide while killing scvs, dropping one every 2-3 seconds. By time it dies, you're lucky if it kills 4-5 scvs and not more.
You end up paying a lot even if you react appropriately.
Those calculations ignore a lot of factors like opportunity cost, cost of starport, of tech lab, of the scv not mining while constructing the starport, of gas being much more valuable than minerals, since it is both more slowly mined and detrimental in mid and late game to the terran army, of an engineering bay being both needed for upgrades and to gain local air control without investing in air units. The turrets also negate most Viking scouting and harass etc. Ravens are super useful in Viking and Marauder battles (both units seen in 99% of TvTs), they can also be used to detect cloaked ghosts etc.
It isn't as cut and dry and subtract or add ressources to build costs. If you just waltz into his base with 3 rax MM he can have all the cloak banshees he wants if all his SCVs are dead.
I see pros disliking fast banshee openers more and more. Good Terrans will scout it and have a Viking ready and a Raven not many seconds after cloak has kicked in. (Fast Raven openers also are becoming more popular in TvT) Then he has a bigger army than you, while all the tech is wasted and he can pretty much do what he wants. Attack / Contain / Expand or all 3 at once, since you will not have much on the ground that threatens him.
It requires a really good turret spread to stop banshees with just turrets. If you watch a better TvT player like SeleCT, who is about as good as anyone outside korea in TvT. He will use a 2 banshee opener with cloak even against raven builds and still be useful.
With raven/viking you have other problems such as 2 banshees harassing you when you expand, or two coming in at different angles. MorroW was also really pressured by this type of play. Banshees in general are usually cost efficient, even against raven/viking builds you can still manage 7-9 kills and waste scans. Obviously in TvT and any matchup you have to mix up your strategies but double banshee fast cloak is almost always solid or advantageous.
Thor First is something I just don't understand why you would ever go it. It just seems like the occasions it does good are ones another build would have done better. I just fail to see any edge / pressure it creates except in hypotheticals. You don't have to get thor to get an armory + upgrades..
Hypothetically they are decent on ground, and have good anti air.. I just see them being exploited by more finesse units and too clunky.
On September 21 2010 21:41 ChickenLips wrote: It isn't as cut and dry and subtract or add ressources to build costs. If you just waltz into his base with 3 rax MM he can have all the cloak banshees he wants if all his SCVs are dead.
I see pros disliking fast banshee openers more and more. Good Terrans will scout it and have a Viking ready and a Raven not many seconds after cloak has kicked in. (Fast Raven openers also are becoming more popular in TvT) Then he has a bigger army than you, while all the tech is wasted and he can pretty much do what he wants. Attack / Contain / Expand or all 3 at once, since you will not have much on the ground that threatens him.
You're not understanding that all 2-3 rax Terran openers are garbage. Nobody does them because all you have to do to stop them is bunker up + repair and then shred them with banshees. The only way 3rax MM is viable is if you hide two of your raxes, which basically makes it a cheese.
Almost every top Terran player currently opens banshees.
Im 1400 terran and thor push on steppes is my opening of choice in TvT and sometimes in TvP. Its incredible strong. Fast thor is only really countered by MM play.
It seems that when you attack right after the first thor, none of their units can kill your thor so you kill off their army. It seems like timing attack mostly. And if your opponent goes banshees, thor still do great against them because of their stupidly long range. I think thor might beat banshee (but I will need to test more) but loses to 3 rax marauder. Luckily 3 rax marauder is pretty bad and loses to banshee; and you can scout them before having to make a choice of whether to go banshee or thor.
i dont know if any of this mad sense, my brain is kinda bleh...
It seems like if it didn't work immediately it would be super easy for an opponent to easily counter. Just pump some stim barracks units and rip right through it.
I believe this works very well against the four marine + hellion timing attack. I think, key word think as I stopped playing terran right before 1.1.2, that the thor timing comes right as the enemy's siege completes or right before if they transition to tank/viking.
However, this build seems to be easily stopped by one bunker + 2 marauders.
However, if using marauders instead of marines in the timing attack, I think it could work out well.
I think Thors are feasible in TvT, but I still think Siege Tanks/Vikings will rule most of the time. It is way more mobile. Vikings can spot for Tanks and harass. It's pretty Cost effective. You can make 2x Vikings out of a Reactored Starport, and easily switch to bio with the same Starport by making Medivacs.
I grinded Thor builds for a while, and in my experience, that initial (and continuing) investment in a real expensive unit that's really strong, but really slow, making it hard to deploy makes it really hard to play right. Everytime I expanded, I feared my opponent was 1+ expansion ahead, and it was hard to scout because 1. good opponents knowing you're going Thors are going to park some units in the front of your base to prevent SCVs or Marines from scouting and 2. you need MULEs to support your expensive Thors. So most times, until you are just about to attack, you are pretty much blind.
I lost to it once, purely because of map control and small map. And thats about how you make it work. If its long distances between bases your dead, when your at his front but it can actually be kind of good vs Tanks if u just go into his ramp and repair -> kill his army.
I wouldnt think of it possible on any other map than steeps or close metra/delta and if your up against 1700+ you instant loose.
Soo it works but u need suprise moment and fast aggresion. Otherwise you'll be blown to pieces.
Well everyone seems to be hating on this so I guess I will try to take the otherside (1700 terran).
I have generally been opening fast banshees every game, but people are getting better at reacting to it and I have found it to be working less often of late.
So I have started tinkering around with the long forgotten thorship and having some reasonable success. Here is what works for me.
Open like fast tanks but when factory ends build a armory...hide on the side of your base obviously and they won't see anything out of the ordinary. Then build a starport.
If you scout banshees, forget the dropship and go for a fast raven, then get the dropship.
Why this works. Most player's dont go tank viking anymore, tank bio/expand or cloaked banshees are pretty much the norm imo. So if its not cloaked banshees then I generally drop my thor right by the mineral line and pick off as many scvs as I can, which is usually 3-4. Next I can take out the refinerys pretty quick which is VERY damaging if their army isnt nearby.
My other objective in the drop is to abuse the thorship with cliffs,walls whatever to wittle down his army which is pretty easy at this stage in the game as his army should be small and your thor can one shot some marines or quickly kill a tank, meanwhile I have another thor and 2 dropship building back at base and a second rax down with a reactor on my first rax to mineral dump mass marines. I take my first thor back to base, repair him and then my next drop is 2 thors +scvs/marines, while my marines rush in to their expansion while their army is distracted chasing my thors around. If they have vikings they generally come before the army so drop your thors and have them kill the vikings.
This has worked out for me so far, but I have only tested it a couple of times. Be sure to make alot of marines because if they get vikings to counter your drops and then just maurader spam and rush your expansion you might be in trouble.
I have been able to do significant damage every game that I have done this drop so far, but lost once to mass mauarders, however I macroed terribly in that game and If i had spammed about 20 more marines it would certainly have gone much differently.
Fast thor loses if scouted to a simple 2 rax marauder. Really cheesy play (relying too much on not being scouted). I would say at 1500+ if it gets scouted, abandon the strategy and go standard.
EPT![[image loading]](http://us.media.blizzard.com/sc2/media/artwork/unit_terran_thor-large.jpg)
