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Zerg... These creepy insect things won't have houses to live in but instead they have a flying object known as the overlord. What the zerg do with these? Stack them up in a corner or use them to scout the map?
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/8/8b/Generate_creep.gif)
or
![[image loading]](http://i53.tinypic.com/ngewrr.jpg)
OMG, The overlords are OVER 9000!!!!!!!
ZvT, yes I am going to talk about ZvT. How should one zerg react when he sees 4 vikings incoming and killing an overlord in 3 seconds maximum. Retreat all of his creep spewing overlord or start assisting them with hydras?
The problem I think with the overlord is the speed of it. Not just that they become easy preys for Ovie-hunts but also makes them bad for scouting purposes. But I won't talk anything about how to improve them, instead, what do you guys do with your ovies? Let them scout the whole map by spreading them out or letting them spew creep so that your creep-highway gets so much bigger or just put them all over your base close to you army?
Because when I am T (I play Random) and encounter a Z who has his overlords spread out, it's instantly overlord hunting for me. I get like 3+ overlords in no time with my vikings and he wastes 300 minerals + getting supply blocked. At the same time, I go for hellions to harrass the mineral line and just get a very big advantage over my Zerg opponent.
Sometimes, it doesn't even matter if they aren't spread out. Only one or two queens won't stop my 2-4 vikings when I go for the hunt over his base.
What I basically want to ask is, what do you do with your overlords fellow zerg players and to you terran players, have you ever gone on an Overlord Hunt? Have you ever felt the joy of seeing them explode RIGHT IN THE KISSER!?
Tell me.
XiGua
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Overlord hunting is fun, and when I do a phoenix opening I value killing overlords over drones a lot of the time since they are more expensive and supply blocking hurts his economy just as much as rebuilding drones does.
That said, overlord speed is the best defense against it. It allows you to run overlords towards your army/queens a lot easier, and reposition all of them inside your base if it's necessary without too much trouble. Even if you lose 3 overlords to it, that's pretty much an even tradeoff. Investing in anti-air when your opponent has no air other than overlords is kind of expensive. I think phoenixes pay for themselves better than vikings do, but using 8 supply plus minerals and gas for the units just to kill overlords doesn't pay for itself right away.
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Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too)
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Ovie hunting is my favorite thing to do, next to cliffing expos with tanks.
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On September 07 2010 23:26 XiGua wrote:
Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too)
Not really. The lift-off and landing animations are too slow for serious harassment. You might snipe a few drones, if your opponent has slow reactions and doesn't look at the minimap, but they're basically wasted gas once mutalisks or hydras come out.
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Overlords are an endangered species. You're all animals.
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On September 07 2010 23:46 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 23:26 XiGua wrote:
Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too) Not really. The lift-off and landing animations are too slow for serious harassment. You might snipe a few drones, if your opponent has slow reactions and doesn't look at the minimap, but they're basically wasted gas once mutalisks or hydras come out.
You do realize vikings kill mutalisks all day long?
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On September 07 2010 23:58 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 23:46 PanzerKing wrote:On September 07 2010 23:26 XiGua wrote:
Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too) Not really. The lift-off and landing animations are too slow for serious harassment. You might snipe a few drones, if your opponent has slow reactions and doesn't look at the minimap, but they're basically wasted gas once mutalisks or hydras come out. You do realize vikings kill mutalisks all day long?
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.
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As a zerg player, I don't know why more people don't hunt down overlords. It's easy and does so much good:
1. Supply block
2. Force larva waste
3. Deny map vision
This is why I always research speed around the time air forces start becoming prominent... just in case! I credit more than a few wins to the advanced knowledge provided by an idle overlord parked near a choke or outside the enemies base.
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On September 08 2010 00:00 Exquisito wrote:
As a zerg player, I don't know why more people don't hunt down overlords. It's easy and does so much good:
1. Supply block
2. Force larva waste
3. Deny map vision
This is why I always research speed around the time air forces start becoming prominent... just in case! I credit more than a few wins to the advanced knowledge provided by an idle overlord parked near a choke or outside the enemies base.
I'm surprised more P don't try it, but don't expect many T to use Vikings. Phoenixes are a much stronger opening than Vikings. Vikings are not very good against ground, have little harassment ability, and lose to Mutas. Phoenixes harass much more effectively, can be strong against ground by lifting key units, and they eat Mutas for lunch.
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Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG.
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On September 08 2010 00:06 OBiE_WaNG wrote:
Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG.
GG for the Terran, who will get rolled by Mutas.
I have no idea how people can say that Vikings beat Mutas. Are we talking about the Bronze League here?
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I always liked overlord hunting as T, but it's just not effective. By the time you got vikings out he will be near lair tech if you rush for them, so you will maybe kill about 2-3 overlords by the time his mutas arrive. On Kulas Ravine it's very viable, because vikings have so many obnoxious spots there, but on every other map there is just no useful transition to keep the pressure up and your zerg opponent will just contain you and eventually kill you.
From my point of view vikings really lack good transitions in TvZ. They are basically a counterunit, that's what they are great at and what denies pretty much every heavy airplay in TvZ, TvP and also TvT. They might have some space earlier in the game on some maps, especially for some harassment and/or scouting, but that's very map-dependant. They just lift too slow to be good at harassing cost-effectively.
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On September 08 2010 00:08 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 00:06 OBiE_WaNG wrote:
Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG. GG for the Terran, who will get rolled by Mutas. I have no idea how people can say that Vikings beat Mutas. Are we talking about the Bronze League here?
In equal numbers I think that vikings actually beat mutalisks. The issue is that I make sure there are never even numbers.
I have seen more and more toss go for this, since I usually open with mutas if I scout a phoenix open I just make a 4 or so corruptors and lul at them being unable to harass me (protip, phoenixes do 6 damage per shot to corruptors instead of 20 to mutas XD).
My ovies are usually spread in my base + 1 at each expo, and even if they snipe a few, I can usually perform some harass right back at them to even things out. Killing 2 drones >>>>>> killing an ovie imo.
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Yea...vikings...don't beat mutalisks, unless you've somehow got 2-3x their numbers in vikings.
Anyways....overlord hunting. As P, will almost always open a stargate against Z to hunt overlords, snipe queens and just be a pain in the ass.
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On September 08 2010 00:12 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 00:08 PanzerKing wrote:On September 08 2010 00:06 OBiE_WaNG wrote:
Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG. GG for the Terran, who will get rolled by Mutas. I have no idea how people can say that Vikings beat Mutas. Are we talking about the Bronze League here? In equal numbers I think that vikings actually beat mutalisks. The issue is that I make sure there are never even numbers. 1v1 a Viking would win, but the higher number mutas get better and better due to bounce.
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I group my army with 10 or so Overlords. It distracts them and they won't be able to see my army and counter it.
I had a guy that was particularly pesky with Overlord killing and Phoenixes. I didn't want to get Hydralisks out yet so I let him kill my Overlords. I also let him kill some Drones. Did it matter? Not really, because when our armies fought, I steamrolled over his easily, because he invested so much into Phoenixes. I chipped away at him yes, before I engaged, but it comes down to you cannot do enough damage with Overlord killing. Maybe if you had 10 Vikings constantly patrolling, but that's a lot of supply wasted in the final confrontation, and that's when I'll throw down 10 Hydralisks, which can defend and attack. I usually have 4 Queens out anyways as anti-air and defence. You will need at least 5 Phoenixes to stop that. 4 Queens are useful everywhere else with creep and transfuse. Phoenixes, not so much.
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On September 07 2010 23:58 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 23:46 PanzerKing wrote:On September 07 2010 23:26 XiGua wrote:
Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too) Not really. The lift-off and landing animations are too slow for serious harassment. You might snipe a few drones, if your opponent has slow reactions and doesn't look at the minimap, but they're basically wasted gas once mutalisks or hydras come out. You do realize vikings kill mutalisks all day long?
Er, what? Mutalisks murder Vikings for cost.
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On September 08 2010 00:12 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 00:08 PanzerKing wrote:On September 08 2010 00:06 OBiE_WaNG wrote:
Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG. GG for the Terran, who will get rolled by Mutas. I have no idea how people can say that Vikings beat Mutas. Are we talking about the Bronze League here? In equal numbers I think that vikings actually beat mutalisks. The issue is that I make sure there are never even numbers.
Vikings lose even when superior in numbers. The Viking attack is just bad - the AI will badly, badly overkill, meaning that each round of attacks will snipe only 2-3 mutas. Meanwhile, the Mutas attack for less damage but more frequently, which results in less overkill. Also, their attack bounces, which helps avoid the overkill problem.
I literally just played a game where I tried a Viking opener. My opponent was a weaker Zerg, like ~550 Diamond, and I was able to expo pretty safely. When he eventually fielded ~18 mutas to my 20 vikings, I lost 18 vikings and killed 9 mutas, and I was microing them constantly. I won the game because he was a weak player and I had superior macro+better scouting, but the Viking/Muta battle was every bit as lopsided as I expected.
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On September 08 2010 00:19 vica wrote:
I group my army with 10 or so Overlords. It distracts them and they won't be able to see my army and counter it.
I had a guy that was particularly pesky with Overlord killing and Phoenixes. I didn't want to get Hydralisks out yet so I let him kill my Overlords. I also let him kill some Drones. Did it matter? Not really, because when our armies fought, I steamrolled over his easily, because he invested so much into Phoenixes. I chipped away at him yes, before I engaged, but it comes down to you cannot do enough damage with Overlord killing. Maybe if you had 10 Vikings constantly patrolling, but that's a lot of supply wasted in the final confrontation, and that's when I'll throw down 10 Hydralisks, which can defend and attack. I usually have 4 Queens out anyways as anti-air and defence. You will need at least 5 Phoenixes to stop that. 4 Queens are useful everywhere else with creep and transfuse. Phoenixes, not so much.
I think you're underestimating the power of good phoenix harass. Those phoenixes will not only eat up your drones and queens and overlords, but they'll incapacitate an equal number of units when your armies actually engage. Thus, he's only really investing the difference in cost between, say, a hydra and a phoenix, assuming the latter lifts the former in a fight. The phoenix will easily pay back that cost in harassment potential, and any chance he gets to pick off stray units will help him a lot as well.
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EPT
