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Zerg... These creepy insect things won't have houses to live in but instead they have a flying object known as the overlord. What the zerg do with these? Stack them up in a corner or use them to scout the map?
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OMG, The overlords are OVER 9000!!!!!!!
ZvT, yes I am going to talk about ZvT. How should one zerg react when he sees 4 vikings incoming and killing an overlord in 3 seconds maximum. Retreat all of his creep spewing overlord or start assisting them with hydras?
The problem I think with the overlord is the speed of it. Not just that they become easy preys for Ovie-hunts but also makes them bad for scouting purposes. But I won't talk anything about how to improve them, instead, what do you guys do with your ovies? Let them scout the whole map by spreading them out or letting them spew creep so that your creep-highway gets so much bigger or just put them all over your base close to you army?
Because when I am T (I play Random) and encounter a Z who has his overlords spread out, it's instantly overlord hunting for me. I get like 3+ overlords in no time with my vikings and he wastes 300 minerals + getting supply blocked. At the same time, I go for hellions to harrass the mineral line and just get a very big advantage over my Zerg opponent.
Sometimes, it doesn't even matter if they aren't spread out. Only one or two queens won't stop my 2-4 vikings when I go for the hunt over his base.
What I basically want to ask is, what do you do with your overlords fellow zerg players and to you terran players, have you ever gone on an Overlord Hunt? Have you ever felt the joy of seeing them explode RIGHT IN THE KISSER!?
Tell me.
XiGua
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Overlord hunting is fun, and when I do a phoenix opening I value killing overlords over drones a lot of the time since they are more expensive and supply blocking hurts his economy just as much as rebuilding drones does.
That said, overlord speed is the best defense against it. It allows you to run overlords towards your army/queens a lot easier, and reposition all of them inside your base if it's necessary without too much trouble. Even if you lose 3 overlords to it, that's pretty much an even tradeoff. Investing in anti-air when your opponent has no air other than overlords is kind of expensive. I think phoenixes pay for themselves better than vikings do, but using 8 supply plus minerals and gas for the units just to kill overlords doesn't pay for itself right away.
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Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too)
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Ovie hunting is my favorite thing to do, next to cliffing expos with tanks.
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On September 07 2010 23:26 XiGua wrote:
Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too)
Not really. The lift-off and landing animations are too slow for serious harassment. You might snipe a few drones, if your opponent has slow reactions and doesn't look at the minimap, but they're basically wasted gas once mutalisks or hydras come out.
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Overlords are an endangered species. You're all animals.
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On September 07 2010 23:46 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 23:26 XiGua wrote:
Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too) Not really. The lift-off and landing animations are too slow for serious harassment. You might snipe a few drones, if your opponent has slow reactions and doesn't look at the minimap, but they're basically wasted gas once mutalisks or hydras come out.
You do realize vikings kill mutalisks all day long?
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On September 07 2010 23:58 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 23:46 PanzerKing wrote:On September 07 2010 23:26 XiGua wrote:
Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too) Not really. The lift-off and landing animations are too slow for serious harassment. You might snipe a few drones, if your opponent has slow reactions and doesn't look at the minimap, but they're basically wasted gas once mutalisks or hydras come out. You do realize vikings kill mutalisks all day long?
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.
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As a zerg player, I don't know why more people don't hunt down overlords. It's easy and does so much good:
1. Supply block
2. Force larva waste
3. Deny map vision
This is why I always research speed around the time air forces start becoming prominent... just in case! I credit more than a few wins to the advanced knowledge provided by an idle overlord parked near a choke or outside the enemies base.
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On September 08 2010 00:00 Exquisito wrote:
As a zerg player, I don't know why more people don't hunt down overlords. It's easy and does so much good:
1. Supply block
2. Force larva waste
3. Deny map vision
This is why I always research speed around the time air forces start becoming prominent... just in case! I credit more than a few wins to the advanced knowledge provided by an idle overlord parked near a choke or outside the enemies base.
I'm surprised more P don't try it, but don't expect many T to use Vikings. Phoenixes are a much stronger opening than Vikings. Vikings are not very good against ground, have little harassment ability, and lose to Mutas. Phoenixes harass much more effectively, can be strong against ground by lifting key units, and they eat Mutas for lunch.
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Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG.
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On September 08 2010 00:06 OBiE_WaNG wrote:
Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG.
GG for the Terran, who will get rolled by Mutas.
I have no idea how people can say that Vikings beat Mutas. Are we talking about the Bronze League here?
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I always liked overlord hunting as T, but it's just not effective. By the time you got vikings out he will be near lair tech if you rush for them, so you will maybe kill about 2-3 overlords by the time his mutas arrive. On Kulas Ravine it's very viable, because vikings have so many obnoxious spots there, but on every other map there is just no useful transition to keep the pressure up and your zerg opponent will just contain you and eventually kill you.
From my point of view vikings really lack good transitions in TvZ. They are basically a counterunit, that's what they are great at and what denies pretty much every heavy airplay in TvZ, TvP and also TvT. They might have some space earlier in the game on some maps, especially for some harassment and/or scouting, but that's very map-dependant. They just lift too slow to be good at harassing cost-effectively.
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On September 08 2010 00:08 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 00:06 OBiE_WaNG wrote:
Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG. GG for the Terran, who will get rolled by Mutas. I have no idea how people can say that Vikings beat Mutas. Are we talking about the Bronze League here?
In equal numbers I think that vikings actually beat mutalisks. The issue is that I make sure there are never even numbers.
I have seen more and more toss go for this, since I usually open with mutas if I scout a phoenix open I just make a 4 or so corruptors and lul at them being unable to harass me (protip, phoenixes do 6 damage per shot to corruptors instead of 20 to mutas XD).
My ovies are usually spread in my base + 1 at each expo, and even if they snipe a few, I can usually perform some harass right back at them to even things out. Killing 2 drones >>>>>> killing an ovie imo.
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Yea...vikings...don't beat mutalisks, unless you've somehow got 2-3x their numbers in vikings.
Anyways....overlord hunting. As P, will almost always open a stargate against Z to hunt overlords, snipe queens and just be a pain in the ass.
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On September 08 2010 00:12 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 00:08 PanzerKing wrote:On September 08 2010 00:06 OBiE_WaNG wrote:
Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG. GG for the Terran, who will get rolled by Mutas. I have no idea how people can say that Vikings beat Mutas. Are we talking about the Bronze League here? In equal numbers I think that vikings actually beat mutalisks. The issue is that I make sure there are never even numbers. 1v1 a Viking would win, but the higher number mutas get better and better due to bounce.
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I group my army with 10 or so Overlords. It distracts them and they won't be able to see my army and counter it.
I had a guy that was particularly pesky with Overlord killing and Phoenixes. I didn't want to get Hydralisks out yet so I let him kill my Overlords. I also let him kill some Drones. Did it matter? Not really, because when our armies fought, I steamrolled over his easily, because he invested so much into Phoenixes. I chipped away at him yes, before I engaged, but it comes down to you cannot do enough damage with Overlord killing. Maybe if you had 10 Vikings constantly patrolling, but that's a lot of supply wasted in the final confrontation, and that's when I'll throw down 10 Hydralisks, which can defend and attack. I usually have 4 Queens out anyways as anti-air and defence. You will need at least 5 Phoenixes to stop that. 4 Queens are useful everywhere else with creep and transfuse. Phoenixes, not so much.
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On September 07 2010 23:58 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 23:46 PanzerKing wrote:On September 07 2010 23:26 XiGua wrote:
Vikings are very viable not just for overlord hunting and anti air. 4 vikings can snipe a queen and harrass alot to the zergs mineral-line (Protoss and terran too) Not really. The lift-off and landing animations are too slow for serious harassment. You might snipe a few drones, if your opponent has slow reactions and doesn't look at the minimap, but they're basically wasted gas once mutalisks or hydras come out. You do realize vikings kill mutalisks all day long?
Er, what? Mutalisks murder Vikings for cost.
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On September 08 2010 00:12 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 00:08 PanzerKing wrote:On September 08 2010 00:06 OBiE_WaNG wrote:
Wrong! Vikings supporting tanks is GG. GG for the Terran, who will get rolled by Mutas. I have no idea how people can say that Vikings beat Mutas. Are we talking about the Bronze League here? In equal numbers I think that vikings actually beat mutalisks. The issue is that I make sure there are never even numbers.
Vikings lose even when superior in numbers. The Viking attack is just bad - the AI will badly, badly overkill, meaning that each round of attacks will snipe only 2-3 mutas. Meanwhile, the Mutas attack for less damage but more frequently, which results in less overkill. Also, their attack bounces, which helps avoid the overkill problem.
I literally just played a game where I tried a Viking opener. My opponent was a weaker Zerg, like ~550 Diamond, and I was able to expo pretty safely. When he eventually fielded ~18 mutas to my 20 vikings, I lost 18 vikings and killed 9 mutas, and I was microing them constantly. I won the game because he was a weak player and I had superior macro+better scouting, but the Viking/Muta battle was every bit as lopsided as I expected.
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On September 08 2010 00:19 vica wrote:
I group my army with 10 or so Overlords. It distracts them and they won't be able to see my army and counter it.
I had a guy that was particularly pesky with Overlord killing and Phoenixes. I didn't want to get Hydralisks out yet so I let him kill my Overlords. I also let him kill some Drones. Did it matter? Not really, because when our armies fought, I steamrolled over his easily, because he invested so much into Phoenixes. I chipped away at him yes, before I engaged, but it comes down to you cannot do enough damage with Overlord killing. Maybe if you had 10 Vikings constantly patrolling, but that's a lot of supply wasted in the final confrontation, and that's when I'll throw down 10 Hydralisks, which can defend and attack. I usually have 4 Queens out anyways as anti-air and defence. You will need at least 5 Phoenixes to stop that. 4 Queens are useful everywhere else with creep and transfuse. Phoenixes, not so much.
I think you're underestimating the power of good phoenix harass. Those phoenixes will not only eat up your drones and queens and overlords, but they'll incapacitate an equal number of units when your armies actually engage. Thus, he's only really investing the difference in cost between, say, a hydra and a phoenix, assuming the latter lifts the former in a fight. The phoenix will easily pay back that cost in harassment potential, and any chance he gets to pick off stray units will help him a lot as well.
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Large numbers of mutas beat large numbers of Vikings because mutas deal splash damage.
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Ok, I just literally tried 30 vikings against 30 mutalisks in a unit tester and my god does the vikings overkill! If I focus fire THEY ALL shoot at the same target which makes them exceptionally bad since so much is going to waste. But vikings are still viable in my opinion against ovies and harrass, because you can gain early map control with help of hellions too.
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On September 08 2010 00:27 XiGua wrote:
Ok, I just literally tried 30 vikings against 30 mutalisks in a unit tester and my god does the vikings overkill! If I focus fire THEY ALL shoot at the same target which makes them exceptionally bad since so much is going to waste. But vikings are still viable in my opinion against ovies and harrass, because you can gain early map control with help of hellions too.
That's true, but only because so many Zerg have a hard-on for turtling. Even a small roach push will completely topple a T who is rushing hellions+vikings, or at least deny him an expo, leaving Z free to save up for mutas.
And yes, Vikings overkill incredibly badly, because their attack is so slow. It makes them very difficult to use in large numbers.
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getting 4 vikings that early or at any stage of the game vs zerg is usually a bad thing because better zerg players won't worry about 200-300 minerals worth of overlords for over 600mins/300gas of vikings and the associated tech buildings required to make them
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I like Vikings as Terran in both TvZ and TvP. They are a good unit with solid uses against certain enemy compositions.
When going mech and facing Mutas, Vikings are a better compliment than Marines imo to go with your Thors. They actually have the ability to chase, and are invulnerable to a lot of ground units that you're likely to see out of that comp. And of course, Ovie harass and a bit of map control are possible with Vikings. A Zerg player will also hestiate to go for the clutch Broodlords when they see a few Vikings (though most Zerg are going Ultras nowadays anyway).
Against Protoss, Vikings shut down every air unit extremely well, and are an unbeatable counter to Colossi. These two points establish remedy two of bio's primary weaknesses, mobility and colossus. I often go reactor-starport in my bio builds for Vikings as well as Medievac potential.
But, that's far from saying that they're sufficient to be the backbone of an army, or are worthy of being "rushed" to. Mutas, on the other hand, can be a player's mainstay, and are good enough to spend resources on very early. Vikings are only good when you see a particular comp.
As for Ovie Harass, it's good if for some reason you know your opponent is producing a lot of units right then and you can supply block him. It's also good, of course, versus a player who does not exercice good control over his Ovies, is crowding you with creep or is generally just bad at responding mentally to harass.
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On September 08 2010 00:12 Bair wrote:
In equal numbers I think that vikings actually beat mutalisks. The issue is that I make sure there are never even numbers.
I have seen more and more toss go for this, since I usually open with mutas if I scout a phoenix open I just make a 4 or so corruptors and lul at them being unable to harass me (protip, phoenixes do 6 damage per shot to corruptors instead of 20 to mutas XD).
My ovies are usually spread in my base + 1 at each expo, and even if they snipe a few, I can usually perform some harass right back at them to even things out. Killing 2 drones >>>>>> killing an ovie imo.
Even if you get corruptors out, if the P already has more phoenix, he should kill all your corrupters. Yeah they only do 6 dmg, but they do 6 dmg twice every time they fire, so its more like 12. Not to mention they are the fastest unit in the game, with shields, and the ability to move and shoot. I think the only great counter zerg has is hydras to be honest. At least thats the only thing that ever stops me from making more phoenix in this matchup, well and spore crawlers duhhhhh.
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I've been trying to experiment with a way to force zergs away from the mutas, lings, banelings, and infestors that every tvz becomes, but I'm having trouble making great use of Vikings. They're pretty slow and have a hard time getting in and out for harrassment. You need an early air dominance to discourage mutas before you get completely outproduced. Hopefully they go hydra and you have tanks and such ready to kill them.
Vikings do okay in a straight up dogfight against mutas (cost effectiveness is debatable at 150/75 each) but they're too slow to chase. The mutas can choose when and where to engage. Plus fungal growth makes babies cry...but i'm still not sure, more testing is required.
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i notice my protoss practice partner often overlord hunts only 1 or 2 overlords in a key area on the map. at the time, i think aww man i gotta retreat the other overlords, or rebuild the ones that I lost. but meanwhile, his overarching tactic is to exploit my lost map vision by sending a warp prism over to that location, and warp-in dts or zealots into my main or expansion.
it's actually pretty effective, because zerg players often forget to put overlords back to the same key areas where the overlords previously died.
the same thing happens with xel naga towers; often i'll see players kill off the zerglings at the watch towers, wait a few minutes, and if I forget to retake the watch tower, they can do a huge push or surprise.
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You guys are talking about mutas coming out, but you do realize if you kill 3-4 overlords, they aren't going to be building many mutas until the ovies are replaced. This means they will either come out one by one(4 vik > 1-2 mutas), or they are going to have to delay them till the ovies pop.(Your bio-ball is already there.)
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Vikings have range 9 when mutas have range 3.
Just putting that out there....
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Even the threat of killing overlords is quite a bit deal for Zerg. It forces them to at least have something to ward off vikings/phoenixes at their bases, but it also does something quite crucial - deny overlord scouting. As a Zerg player, it forces me to move my overlords away from places where I would really want them for scouting.
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On September 08 2010 05:05 zomgtossrush wrote:
Vikings have range 9 when mutas have range 3.
Just putting that out there....
and move slower and fire slow as shit. Vikings are good don't get me wrong, but mutalisks beat them for cost
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I like opening with very fast 2 cloaked banshee and doing reactor to factory then after 2 banshee goes out swap factory to starpot and do viking to hunt ovies (if my harass worked it will take sometime untill he can get hydras or mutas )
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Just throwing out there that overlord hunting is also viable in ZvZ.  If you have early mutas out and they are playing defensively in their base, you can run around and almost always kill off 2 or 3 overlords. Which in fast-paced ZvZ, is huge.
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Ive been opening hellion harrass into reactored vikings. Overlord hunting is probably the most satisfying thing in the world. Also, it takes 7 vikings to one shot an overlord. Kinda a useful thing to know
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
i love using viking openings against Z. as well as the overlord sniping, it forces the zerg to either go hydras or mutas. i can scout which with my vikings and make the appropriate response.
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I build one spore crawler in my minerals and park my overlords there. That at least protects me from overlords being sniped in my base. If they come in and try to kill your overlords anyway then you can usually kill a viking/phoenix or two, which makes it an equal trade if you lose some overlords.
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What should the Zerg do to counter early vikings I would ask. Straight tech to lair? Or spore crawlers even though they might not build any vikings at all?
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Mutas are alot better then vikings en mass because of the bounce attack.
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On September 08 2010 00:22 PanzerKing wrote:
I literally just played a game where I tried a Viking opener. My opponent was a weaker Zerg, like ~550 Diamond, and I was able to expo pretty safely. When he eventually fielded ~18 mutas to my 20 vikings, I lost 18 vikings and killed 9 mutas, and I was microing them constantly. I won the game because he was a weak player and I had superior macro+better scouting, but the Viking/Muta battle was every bit as lopsided as I expected.
That is curious. Reading your post I ran 10 tests with each level of weapon and armor upgrade pitting 20 vikings against 20 mutas and the vikings prevailed every time. Even when I tried a-moving the vikings and microing the mutas. Sounds like you were behind on upgrades?
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On September 09 2010 00:22 nailertn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 00:22 PanzerKing wrote:
I literally just played a game where I tried a Viking opener. My opponent was a weaker Zerg, like ~550 Diamond, and I was able to expo pretty safely. When he eventually fielded ~18 mutas to my 20 vikings, I lost 18 vikings and killed 9 mutas, and I was microing them constantly. I won the game because he was a weak player and I had superior macro+better scouting, but the Viking/Muta battle was every bit as lopsided as I expected. That is curious. Reading your post I ran 10 tests with each level of weapon and armor upgrade pitting 20 vikings against 20 mutas and the vikings prevailed every time. Even when I tried a-moving the vikings and microing the mutas. Sounds like you were behind on upgrades?
No, we were both 0/0, he didn't upgrade at all and I was transitioning into marine/thor since I knew he was massing mutas.
Packs of Mutas simply don't have the overkill problem that cripples packs of Vikings. I have never, ever seen Vikings beat Mutas cost-for-cost. That's the reason why nobody ever opens Vikings against Zerg, in competitive play. Top tier players understand that the harassment comes too late, does too little damage, and is rendered useless by one of Z's best units - Mutas.
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EPT
