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amaGAWD
Germany41 Posts
On September 03 2010 07:47 Glacius0 wrote:Either way, no build is uncounterable, and you shouldn't expect it to be. If you know what potential dangers are, then you know when to deviate from your build to prevent them. No detection? Go DT. No banelings? Push. Something along those lines. one or 2 void rays with a phoenix(beam the queen8)) suddenly popping out in the back of your main and he would have owned you badly. he had all the tools and just fucked up , tbh "lucky" for you :p | ||
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cathode
2 Posts
mass hydra+corruptors killing my colossi+gateway units. I'm definitely loving this strat and it is a lot of fun!! At first, my execution was very sloppy. But now I'm getting hang of it. DT killing drones at multiple bases + pushing with main army surely throws off the zerg. Towards the end, the zerg would try to switch to mass mutas from hydra/roach/ling/overseers. But then I had stargates so it wouldn't matter. Again, thanks a bunch! | ||
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kuzel
13 Posts
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Moreboom
Australia14 Posts
Zerg just can't figure it out. Even when they start throwing lots of overseers in it, as long as you keep denying their third expo - it's eventually a gg while you expand at your leisure and walk away from every encounter far ahead. I know when I was playing zerg and got backed into a corner as I was hive teching to ultras, i would feel like the game it about to turn around on the other guy. I now kinda feel bad for the zerg who's ultras are rendered useless by the dt's. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17356 Posts
1) I recommended using a 2-gate opening in the original post, especially if the zerg is in close positions. Some people wondered whether a 5 Roach Rush (see Fistadantilus's guide) would run the protoss over. The answer is no, albeit it is very close. As long as you're very good at getting your core and gas up after your 5th zealot, you should have 2 stalkers built in time to hold off the rush. However, this margin for error is very slim with the timings. In fact, it is so slim that I suspect that 2-gating may not even be viable after the zealot nerf. I'm not entirely sure what the best way to transition into this build will be post-patch (or even now). This will take a little more experimenting. Any ideas on this point would be greatly appreciated. I'd prefer something that allows the protoss to pressure the zerg. Maybe Antimage's void ray opener is the best answer at this point. 2) As others have pointed out, one thing to watch out for with this build is a zerg that goes very heavy roach with some hydra support. Fortunately, with your phoenix, you will be able to see what the zerg is doing and have plenty of time to adjust your forces if the zerg goes roach-heavy. Adding a couple void rays will do nicely to help burn down the roaches. 3) Speaking of void rays, I think that fluxed void rays are preferable to phoenixes as your air force as the game rolls on into the late game. You'll be able to kill overseers faster, snipe expansions more easily, and have an extra tool for killing broodlords and ultralisks efficiently. Also, void rays with phoenixes will better be able to maintain air control than just pure phoenixes because void rays can kill corruptors much more easily. | ||
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Khrane
United States120 Posts
On September 07 2010 01:13 xDaunt wrote: A few notes and updates... I've been having a lot of success with the Antimage opening, but you need to be really careful with your expo depending on what tech path he chooses. Once you have 2 void rays out, I place a forge, THEN my expo. This is because there's a strong hydra push right when they pop out that can give you some trouble, so you sometimes need one, MAYBE two cannons up ASAP. Other than that, you're golden on the expo. For the midgame, I do your phoenix/DT build, and use it to get my 3rd base up, but I've realized that after your 3rd base is up, there's no reason not to do a normal zealot/immortal/HT build (of course with a few phoenixes in case he goes surprise mutalisks). The DTs are FANTASTIC to take out a 2-base hydra push, but once he's got a large hydra force and several overseers, you lose a lot more units doing zealot/DT/phoenix/HT than you do without the DTs and phoenixes. I just think that DT/phoenix is a great transition, just not a good lategame composition. | ||
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Nerfed
Russian Federation644 Posts
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JDeathmetal
Netherlands81 Posts
Well till the phoenix part ....  I never get DT's I always transition into collosi cause You mostly force the zerg into hydra's Gonna watch all your replay's though and learn it cause lately I had some problems with a couple of zerg players! I hope this order will ownzzz them harddzz Love you! | ||
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Lordcamel
17 Posts
Been a bit hard to get the hang of it but as soon as you do, at equal level, at least the zerg starts having lots of trouble... Thanks a lot ! | ||
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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
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Seide
United States826 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17356 Posts
On October 29 2010 02:57 Shadrak wrote: I'm really interested in this strat, but being as its a little old now do you still feel it holds up? With the roach upgrades, is it too dangerous to get a late gas/core now? I'm a little bit rusty because I haven't had time to play much for the past couple months. However, with the recent roach change, the 2 gate opening has to change. You can't open 2 gate against a roach opening anymore because you can't get away with fending off roaches with 5 zealots and 2 stalkers. The zerg will simply run you over. I don't really know what the ideal opening is for protoss at this point, but, depending upon the map, it will either be a fast expansion opening or a 1-gate gas/core opening. Like I point out in various posts throughout the thread, the opening is fairly immaterial as the guide is more about the mid to late game transition. As more zergs became familiar with the build, they started incorporating more roaches into their force compositions. If the protoss stuck with a zealot-heavy composition and delayed robo tech to get templar tech online fast, the protoss would lose. With the roach upgrade, I think that this is even more of a problem now. The protoss simply needs immortals against larger roach masses. Moreover, the protoss cannot get away with cutting gas on sentries and stalkers to get templar tech online faster while also supporting a phoenix force. The end game force composition will still be incredibly effective for the protoss against zerg. If you're running around with zealot/stalker/sentry complimented by DTs, HTs, immortals, and phoenixes, you're going to cause a lot of problems for zerg players. The issue now is how best to get there. I don't have a particularly good answer for that right now. | ||
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Evark
United States44 Posts
In hindsight (read: after the somewhat polite ragequit), I should've had infestors. A fungal growth would've worked wonders. Another fail was my counterattack. Decided not to opt for the 1-cannon defended rocks (Blistering Sands) attack, and instead crashed against his wall-in. Doh. | ||
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absolutrook
United States5 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17356 Posts
On October 29 2010 07:14 absolutrook wrote: I have tried this technique of going fast Archons, but by 7 minutes a zerg wtih no pressure is going to run right over me. This is the real trick to PvZ and why the roach change is more significant than a lot of people will admit. What's the best way for the protoss to pressure a zerg early now? I'm open to suggestions. =) | ||
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GinDo
3325 Posts
I loved the Bisu build  | ||
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hellsan631
United States687 Posts
Here is the BO so far. Its missing a few things, but i think i've gotten everything: (i've really planned this out) 9 Pylon 11-12 Chrono Probes 12 Gate 14 Gas 14-15 Chrono Probes 16 Pylon 17 Forge 18 Zealot 22 +1 Weapons 24 Zealot 25 Pylon 26 Zealot 29 Pylon at bottom of ramp/Zealot 30 Core 33 Expo 34 2nd Gas 35 Warp gate, Stargate, once core finishes 36 Stalker Once 1st stalker is done, throw up 2 more gates. If they try and early bust with blings or roaches, just make a couple of cannons and dont attack with zealots. Once +1 is about 90% complete, is when you move out, Right when the 3rd zealot pops out. This attack isnt a winning move, and wont kill any zerg. It will force them to make a few more lings then they want, or start making roaches. Likely transitions include some carrier and ht/dt play. You usually want to favor less blink stalkers, although it is a good idea to get them, because you have a lot of phenox out. | ||
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Khaladas
United States222 Posts
Alternately I have had some luck with 15 nexus expand into phoenix. The strength of this is that defending 2 bases is generally not that much harder than defending one early game, and 4 gas can get you the leg up on gas you need to get phoenix out quickly and continue to tech quickly while maintaining a good enough ground army to hold off zerg pushes. With both options, zerg has a window they can exploit with zerglings or roach busts that you absolutely must scout so you can prepare with units/cannons as necessary. You can then transition into colossi or HT/DT or both eventually in the late game. | ||
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Gemini_19
United States1106 Posts
On October 29 2010 07:25 xDaunt wrote: This is the real trick to PvZ and why the roach change is more significant than a lot of people will admit. What's the best way for the protoss to pressure a zerg early now? I'm open to suggestions. =) Early phoenixs. I just saw this OP and I'm seriously impressed and about to try it out. I'm going to adjust it with my 3gate 1 gate phoenix opening to keep the zerg contained a bit while I expand and go for the DT's. I'll report back if it works | ||
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markie89
Singapore5 Posts
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