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On September 03 2010 03:03 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 02:14 kcdc wrote:
For purposes of discussing your proprosed tech progression, we'll hopefully be able to agree that it's possible for Zerg to enter the mid-game on at least equal ground against any Protoss opening.
Yes, I agree with this, and depending upon the map, I believe that it is inevitable. Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 02:14 kcdc wrote:
As for that tech progression, against a Z with equal economy, I think there are more efficient ways to go. I'd skip the DT's in favor of earlier and more HT's honestly. You're winning because you've been able to (1) secure an economic lead in the early game, and (2) eliminate Z's detection. You can't count on #1, however, because a 2-gate does not ensure an economic lead against a capable Zer player. As for #2, feedbacking overseers will work a lot on ladder, but it's not a permanent solution since the Zerg player can easily drain their energy. Then you're stuck blinking into a force of zerglings, roaches and hydras trying to snipe overseers....and you will lose even-resource fights. Z needs to spend 200/200 on detection, but you have phoenixes which aren't shooting anything and stalkers and DT's that aren't cost-efficient in a straight up fight.
....
The big problems with this build are (1) you're assuming that 2-gating will grant you an economic lead, and (2) your army isn't cost-efficient if Z can keep detection. It's still a decent build that will work well on ladder up to a point. It's just not quite stable. Ok, I disagree that the build is dependent upon securing an economic lead at tier 1. Even though I have the larger economy in most of the replays, the zerg, at one point in each of those games, has a larger army than I do when we engage in the mid game because I have been pumping workers and he has been cutting drones. I also disagree that the build is dependent upon feedbacking overseers. I wouldn't introduce a build that is founded entirely upon a gimmick such as that. Is the build dependent upon killing overseers? Yes, and especially before you get your high templar on the field. Phoenixes, feedback, stalkers, and sentries all contribute to killing the overseers. If you watch some of the replays, a lot of battles are fought when dark templar and phoenixes are on the field but high templar are not. I also think that you're missing the point of getting the dark templar before high templar. The point is to get a force out onto the field that can be aggressive against the zerg quicker. This eases the transition from tier 2 into tier 3, which is usually very time- and resource-intensive. It is during this transition period that zerg's usually are able to either take extra bases or put a lot of pressure on the protoss. The whole point of the build is to eliminate this period. I absolutely agree that high templar are better unit to have in the long run, which is why I advocate getting them ASAP after the dark templar are up. I strongly suggest that you give the build a few tries to see how it works. Again, it's complicated, and some of the dynamics aren't obvious.
Yeah the T2 -> T3 progression is such a huge timing window for zerg and the you thing you have to be most mindful of with almost any protoss build, in particular ones that FE and/or open with stargate. Roach, hydras, nydus worms, even bling busts all pose their own particular problems during this window.
Back when I was experimenting with FE into robo into templar tech I was at one point using DT to hold off pushes during this window, with mixed success. Granted I didn't have phoenixes, but phoenixes don't kill overseers particulary fast, and if I did have any substantial number of phoenixes that would only slow down my tech even worse. It's really hard to say how vulnerable w/o assuming certain things since you are vauge about T1, how much you were able to delay the zerg, etc.
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On September 03 2010 03:38 amaGAWD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 21:12 kcdc wrote:
I'm seeing a weakness where you're talking about going 2-gate, late gas, cybercore, stargate, forge, and having cannons and 2 void rays by the time Z tries a baneling bust. That's just not gonna happen.
Also, as with any 2-gate opening, you need to do damage to justify your delayed tech and slight economic loss. I've played against openings where upon scouting 2-gate, Z opens with ~2 lings into a spine crawler and ~3 roaches followed by an expansion and a couple more spine crawlers. The 2-gate will do essentially no damage and the zerg player will have been droning hard through the entire aggression. When 2-gating against this minimal but effective defense, I've found myself with literally half the income in the midgame. maybe i get this wrong but: protoss: 5 zealots = 500 minerals + slight(!) eco damage zerg: 2lings = 50minerals, 3 roach = 225minerals + 75 gas, 1 spinecrawler = 150minerals. that are 425 minerals, 75 gas + the loss of larvae and it gets much worse for z the more spinecrawler he builds. zerg also gets a eco loss! seems like an equal "loss" you also dont need to suicide your 5 zealots, just back up if he has >1 spinecrawler and your just fine
Ok, but P had to cut workers to 2-gate in time to do damage and still needs gas, cybercore and stalkers before he can expand since Z has roaches on the field. Meanwhile, Z gets to expand immediately for free and P can't apply any pressure. Z will have a much earlier expansion and more workers....
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On September 03 2010 03:43 kcdc wrote:
I'm also can't buy that zealot/stalker/sentry/phoenix/DT beats roach/hydra/overseer for cost if the overseers are controlled well. Roaches and hydras are simply more cost efficient then every P unit on the field as long as there's detection.
Yes, here's the real issue. Let me refine it a little further for you: the issue is whether chargelot/stalker/sentry/phoenix/DT beats roach/hydra/overseer for cost, in mid-game numbers (ie the ~100-120 food range), and if the overseers are controlled well.
I added the food range because that's about how large the armies will be when the DT's are out and before HT's come online for the protoss. IE, this is the critical tier 2 window that I referenced above. I'd have to check my replays for the exact food range (it might be a little lower), but I think I'm pretty close with that estimate. In case you're wondering, the size of the armies makes a very large difference for the reasons explained in the OP.
I know it's counterintuitive, but I believe that the protoss force can beat the zerg force in those circumstances. You'll just have to try it out.
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On September 03 2010 03:50 kcdc wrote:
Ok, but P had to cut workers to 2-gate in time to do damage and still needs gas, cybercore and stalkers before he can expand since Z has roaches on the field. Meanwhile, Z gets to expand immediately for free and P can't apply any pressure. Z will have a much earlier expansion and more workers....
i think investing the above mentioned minerals/gas and larvae(for units) is "enough" dmg. it does throw you behind(obv) but zerg in an equal amount too
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On September 03 2010 03:49 Skyro wrote:
Back when I was experimenting with FE into robo into templar tech I was at one point using DT to hold off pushes during this window, with mixed success. Granted I didn't have phoenixes, but phoenixes don't kill overseers particulary fast, and if I did have any substantial number of phoenixes that would only slow down my tech even worse. It's really hard to say how vulnerable w/o assuming certain things since you are vauge about T1, how much you were able to delay the zerg, etc.
As I mentioned above, I don't think that the protoss can assume that he will do any significant damage to the zerg at Tier 1. I see this as being kind of a black and white issue: either the DT's and phoenixes can consistently close the Tier 2 window against a roach/hydra attack or they can't. So far, I have been able to close that window consistently. It's definitely a much smaller window than if you tech straight to storm or colossi.
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On September 03 2010 03:55 amaGAWD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:50 kcdc wrote:
Ok, but P had to cut workers to 2-gate in time to do damage and still needs gas, cybercore and stalkers before he can expand since Z has roaches on the field. Meanwhile, Z gets to expand immediately for free and P can't apply any pressure. Z will have a much earlier expansion and more workers.... i think investing the above mentioned minerals/gas and larvae(for units) is "enough" dmg. it does throw you behind(obv) but zerg in an equal amount too
No, my point is that in the scenario where you make 2 gates and 5 zealots while Z makes 2 lings, 3 roaches and a spine crawler, you're behind. Zerg has more workers and a stronger army. You can't expand. Zerg can. 2-gating can leave Protoss behind if Zerg responds well.
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On September 03 2010 04:01 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:49 Skyro wrote:
Back when I was experimenting with FE into robo into templar tech I was at one point using DT to hold off pushes during this window, with mixed success. Granted I didn't have phoenixes, but phoenixes don't kill overseers particulary fast, and if I did have any substantial number of phoenixes that would only slow down my tech even worse. It's really hard to say how vulnerable w/o assuming certain things since you are vauge about T1, how much you were able to delay the zerg, etc.
As I mentioned above, I don't think that the protoss can assume that he will do any significant damage to the zerg at Tier 1. I see this as being kind of a black and white issue: either the DT's and phoenixes can consistently close the Tier 2 window against a roach/hydra attack or they can't. So far, I have been able to close that window consistently. It's definitely a much smaller window than if you tech straight to storm or colossi.
IMO, the key issue is creep. If the battle happens off creep, roaches and hydras will have a hard time keeping overseers alive. If the battle happens on creep, the Zerg forces should win easily if they're controlled properly. In most cases, creep won't be an offensive option at this timing window, so the DT's should be effective for defense. I doubt that you can count on the DT's preventing Z from taking a third base, however, as creep will obviously be present for defense.
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I am going to start playing around with this really hate the tier 1 units spam nonsense
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I really want to say again that this transition better from 1 gate than from 2.
I always get 1 gate core and wg asap, then I get forge and depending on my scout I get cannon (for banneling bust) or a second gateway (when I see roach). I can also force the roach by putting pressure with my very first chroned zealot, and I usually chrone 2 of the first 3, so I chrono 3 probes and first and third zealot, and then either get an satlker or 2 more zealots (depending if I made a cannon or 2 gateways)
Forge is never lost money, because I start +1 weapon right away. And now I can get an easy expansion. When I see zerg expanding in this moment, I start attacking the expansion so I can force more spines and a more pasive zerg, while securing my expansion
So I can get my stargate, and TC and go to this mid game.
Basically, I am talking about wg-forge FE, being agressive from the very first zealot. I have not a replay with me, at the time, but next time I play a zerg I will save it.
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I agree with a previous poster that there is some danger with a timing attack right after the hydralisk den finishes. It involves a lot of lings and about 10 hydralisks and the overseer that he had from scouting the expo with changelings (provdes detection). You oppose with a few chargelots, maybe 3 dts, and 2 phoenixes--not enough to kill the overseer fast enough. Two gateways worth of units appears wholly inadequate since you've only just got your expo up and dt's on the fiel .Ironically, this was described by my opponent as a timing attack to do dmg before the feared colossus!
Far from despairing, I think the solution is aggressive scouting of overseers right after seeing the zerg tech structure. The dmg was the overseer nearby scouting to detect, making my investment in DT tech and not more gateways an ineffective choice.
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This build sounds genuinely awesome. I've been opening Stargate into Chargelots then High Templars in a lot of matchups lately just because the Phoenix is such a cool unit and so fun to use.
Sniping Overseers and adding DTs against zerg seems like a natural addition to what I've been doing already, thanks!
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Ok so this thread has just turned into just pure theory debate. so far im the only one besides daunt who has even posted a replay. Honestly i like to see alot less of this theorycrafting war and get some real freeking play in this thread.
WTB some god damn replays, and honestly unless the zerg players posting in this thread can bring replays in where they have gone against it and have something helpfull to contribute its really gotten to the point where this has become un-helpfull and just added alot of garbage to sift through in this thread that i belive was made for a very specific purpose.
Which was to help out protoss players having trouble with muta-ling.
Personally ive gotten to the point where i cant even bring myself to read through all this because none of it has any actual fact to back it up... Obviously with the exception of Xdaunt's posts.
So please either help out and give fact-based replys with replays attached or i just dont see the point in your posting at all
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On September 03 2010 06:29 Unosnow wrote:
Ok so this thread has just turned into just pure theory debate. so far im the only one besides daunt who has even posted a replay. Honestly i like to see alot less of this theorycrafting war and get some real freeking play in this thread.
WTB some god damn replays, and honestly unless the zerg players posting in this thread can bring replays in where they have gone against it and have something helpfull to contribute its really gotten to the point where this has become un-helpfull and just added alot of garbage to sift through in this thread that i belive was made for a very specific purpose.
Which was to help out protoss players having trouble with muta-ling.
Personally ive gotten to the point where i cant even bring myself to read through all this because none of it has any actual fact to back it up... Obviously with the exception of Xdaunt's posts.
So please either help out and give fact-based replys with replays attached or i just dont see the point in your posting at all
+1
Yes, I was about to post something like this. I'd like to see some people actually try this build out before they come here and say that it can't work. I'm happy to explain some of the finer points behind the theory of the build, but I can only explain so much to someone who makes a post and, from his post, clearly does not understand the build.
As I said in the OP, I don't have all of the kinks worked out and I do not know how viable the build is. I already know where the possible weak point in the build is, and I've directly cited it repeatedly in the posts above. However, I don't know whether this possible weak point actually exists or whether it is fatal to the build as a whole. I think that the build is strong and interesting enough to present to everyone for further refinement and discussion. That's the whole point of this thread. However, that won't work well unless people actually try the build and share their experiences.
I've been busy at work so I have not had time to play more than 1 game of SC2 since starting this thread. But, at least for my part, I'll keep posting replays as they come along.
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I've been busy lately, but tonight and tomorrow I'll have a lot of time to play. I'll see if I can do this strategy with a void ray => expand opening, and should be able to upload a replay or two... Hopefully.
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I'm a zerg player, but I'm really excited to see this kind of build emerging, as muta-ling is ridonkulously effective against toss at my level (mid platinum). So many toss players just kinda refuse to build phoenixes, which you really do need (ideally with blink stalker support) to stop zergs constantly going into your base.
So yeah, awesome build, unfortunately I only play toss in team games (where there is so much more detection) so I probably won't be able to try it out.
From a zerg point of view, one idea for countering this would be to try and convince your toss opponent to get a low amount of phoenixes - mass production of hydras might be one thing, or maybe try and snipe his HT/DT so that he uses up his gas on them and can't afford phoenix - as once below a certain threshold the zerg could tech switch to mass muta and end up overwhelming the toss with a big wave of them (though obviously this is a late game scenario).
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On September 01 2010 12:33 ReCharge wrote:Nicely done, I forgot that Overseers have energy, feedback + DT = win 
Wouldnt anyone with half a brain start spamming changelings once he's feedbacked once or twice?
I generally go a zealot heavy build, 2 gate-->stargate--> charge ht. Usually get one void ray then pump phoenixes. So...similar but without the DT.
The DT seem like a bad investment to me, b/c theyre probably gunna get at least one spore at each mineral line in response to phoenixes, so DT harass wont work. And although they are powerful combat units if not seen, the gas is better spent on HT/archons/robo tech.
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On September 03 2010 02:13 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 01:45 Glacius0 wrote:
I had someone try this build on me (zerg) today, and I thought I'd share the results. He went zealots, I went banelings so he understandably stayed back. He went phoenix, I built a spore crawler in every expo. He went DT, my spore crawlers to counter the phoenix harass detected him and he failed miserably. He went HT and did some nice drop/warp-in harass but at this point my army was too big (ultras out).
I think since it was a new build for him his execution wasn't that great (he said so himself), but the baneling/spore crawler thing seems like a big problem. Skipping DT seems better if your opponent gets spore crawlers. I don't think the build is bad, but I also don't think you can always execute it without fail. A few questions about the game: 1) What did the protoss try to do with the phoenixes and DTs? 2) What was your mid-game, pre-ultra army composition? Banelings and what else? 3) Were there any battles in the open field? If so, how did those go and what were the force compositions?
1. He tried to kill my queens and overlords with phoenix, drones with DT.
2. ling/baneling with upgrades
3. There were no battles before ultras (which stomped everything). He didn't feel safe with only zealots vs blings and I don't disagree with him.
Not sure if you are trying to prove that the player did something wrong, but one thing I can mention is that he probably should have taken more map control with DT + phoenix killing overseers if I ever tried to move out. However the nasty thing about banelings is that DTs suicide themselves by killing banelings if you don't micro. This actually happened in one of his DT attacks on my base. Also manual detonation is a problem, or simple having DT near visible units when banelings explode on them.
Either way, no build is uncounterable, and you shouldn't expect it to be. If you know what potential dangers are, then you know when to deviate from your build to prevent them. No detection? Go DT. No banelings? Push. Something along those lines.
Also, getting HT out before ultras by skipping DT might be a nice counter to banelings, but I'm not a protoss player and I reckon it's hard to tech to it in time.
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On September 03 2010 07:47 Glacius0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 02:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 03 2010 01:45 Glacius0 wrote:
I had someone try this build on me (zerg) today, and I thought I'd share the results. He went zealots, I went banelings so he understandably stayed back. He went phoenix, I built a spore crawler in every expo. He went DT, my spore crawlers to counter the phoenix harass detected him and he failed miserably. He went HT and did some nice drop/warp-in harass but at this point my army was too big (ultras out).
I think since it was a new build for him his execution wasn't that great (he said so himself), but the baneling/spore crawler thing seems like a big problem. Skipping DT seems better if your opponent gets spore crawlers. I don't think the build is bad, but I also don't think you can always execute it without fail. A few questions about the game: 1) What did the protoss try to do with the phoenixes and DTs? 2) What was your mid-game, pre-ultra army composition? Banelings and what else? 3) Were there any battles in the open field? If so, how did those go and what were the force compositions? 1. He tried to kill my queens and overlords with phoenix, drones with DT. 2. ling/baneling with upgrades 3. There were no battles before ultras (which stomped everything). He didn't feel safe with only zealots vs blings and I don't disagree with him. Not sure if you are trying to prove that the player did something wrong, but one thing I can mention is that he probably should have taken more map control with DT + phoenix killing overseers if I ever tried to move out. However the nasty thing about banelings is that DTs suicide themselves by killing banelings if you don't micro. This actually happened in one of his DT attacks on my base. Also manual detonation is a problem, or simple having DT near visible units when banelings explode on them. Either way, no build is uncounterable, and you shouldn't expect it to be. If you know what potential dangers are, then you know when to deviate from your build to prevent them. No detection? Go DT. No banelings? Push. Something along those lines.
Yeah, what I figured. I think that this will be the hardest thing for a lot of players to understand about using this build: the phoenixes and DTs aren't meant to be harassment tools so much as they're designed to help you establish map control by giving you superiority over the zerg's army. You have to take what the zerg gives you. If the zerg throws up a bunch of spore crawlers in his bases, then you obviously can't fight him there with DT's and phoenixes. Take an expansion instead. If a zerg is only running around with zerglings and banelings, then the toss should be getting some sentries and stalkers up. Sitting in base and letting the zerg tech to ultras unmolested is not a good idea.
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Here are a couple examples of this strategy from me. I am not great at this game nor at this strat yet but it's getting better for me. The last two times I played I ended up winning with the 2 gate into phoenix OL/Drone harass and they resigned as my stalker/zealot/dt army marched into their sight.
First game, I lose and see a lot of mistakes. It's practice and I'll keep uploading more replays.
700ish diamond protoss.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145428.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145430.jpg)
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Very well written. Will definitely analyze and test this.
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