[D] PvZ: Stargate/TC => DT => HT Build - Page 11

On November 02 2010 07:42 HuskyHawk wrote:
This strategy is not built around obs, blink stalkers, or sentries. The gas is getting eaten up by upgrades, DTs, temps, and phoenixes. If burrow abuse is in play, there will be at most a need for 2 obs; which is only a 300 gas investment (with robo).

In my experience, this isn't a single engagement/death ball type strategy, so the DTs will be recognized early on in the game. The strength of this comp against Z is that overseers are exceedingly difficult to keep alive if P ffs them and then engages. That said, I have had some serious trouble against Zs who have good seer micro keeping them between a hydra ball and my phoenixes, while still away from temps.

I have faced Zs that focus on more infestors, which usually can draw the game out, but not win it for them. templars eat infestors for lunch. They are always heavy on energy and have ridiculously low health; feedbacking them is usually pretty straightforward so long as the P engages from a good angle and doesnt let the temps fall to far back. Also, its not that hard to sneak a few DTs to the back of the Z force and snipe the infestors; they get 1 shotted by 2 DTs.

On November 02 2010 10:19 HuskyHawk wrote:
Look, just as you argued for overseers not running into the middle of a battle, why would a P player start stampeding obs into a fight? The key difference is that if a Z wants to try and hunt down the obs, storms are gonna wreck house.

I don't play at a level where a Z can keep up with macro while simultaneously:
1.) microing burrow on roaches to maximize health and positioning
2.) microing hyds AND overseers to snipe obs
3.) WHILE sniping obs, microing overseers away from phoenixes, temps, and supporting stalks
4.) fungal growth with infestors WHILE keeping them positioned away from temps/flanking DTs

On November 03 2010 02:46 HuskyHawk wrote:
I was not saying a P player will be stampeding observers into the battle. And if Zerg goes burrow roaches, storm will be delayed by the necessity for a robo bay and observers, neither of which this build gets early. Giving the zerg more time to build up a roach/hydra/infestor force.

Microing burrow on roaches like that is unnecessary in this situation, the point is to delay protoss tech and if protoss chooses to ignore the issue punish him. Once again observer snipe unnecessary. Microing seers from behind a line of 4 range roaches and 6 range hydras? Stalkers cant get close enough and Seers sitting over the infestors who have 9 range fungal growth will be fine.

The first thing I would fungal growth is the phoenix's. And then have a group of hydras destroy them as they die fairly easily. And flanking DT's will die in a heartbeat if you do not manage to kill my overseers. Second fungal growth is the chargelots, for obvious reasons.

Also Zerg macro takes maybe 2 seconds. Which I would delay until after the very important parts of the battle were over.

I feel like you are trying to completely discredit what I am saying, while I am simply saying that it is possible to counter this strategy. Just as every other strategy. Yes, if Roach/Hydra/Infestor is done poorly you can in fact defeat it with this, However I feel as though one executed superbly, in the ways I am trying to explain, would be a strong counter.

On November 03 2010 02:47 HuskyHawk wrote:
If you are rolling out with 3-4 infestors, 20+ roaches, 10+hydras, and 2+seers (70+ food); its gonna be tough to hold off 20 chargelots, 6 DTs, 4 phoenix, and 4 temps (72 food) if micro is pretty comparable on both sides. However, if you map those comps up to maxed armies, it becomes a lot harder for P to win with enough left over and good enough macro to keep up with the new Z force.

On November 03 2010 03:51 Kiarip wrote:
hey xdaunt are you gonna start playing again?! we should run some pvps if you are.

But yeah, roaches are really strong with their range now, unless you have voidrays/immortals with you I wouldn't ever use zealots against them. Stalkers are ok, but probably not when he also has infestors.

On November 03 2010 02:47 HuskyHawk wrote:


Fair enough, I wasn't trying to imply that this strat (much less any) is uncounterable. I was more trying to answer the micro differences that I felt were implied in how you described the Z counters to this strat. I agree that roach hydra is a strong combination against this, so long as you are nifty with your ovies and can keep them out of harms way.

I think one important thing to remember about this PvZ design is the predication on SMALL engagements. It can work in the 200/200 fights, but really isn't intended for battles larger than 50-70 food. Once the game has become a 200/200 replenishing brawl, Z has usually already won, regardless of gosu micro from the P.

If you are rolling out with 3-4 infestors, 20+ roaches, 10+hydras, and 2+seers (70+ food); its gonna be tough to hold off 20 chargelots, 6 DTs, 4 phoenix, and 4 temps (72 food) if micro is pretty comparable on both sides. However, if you map those comps up to maxed armies, it becomes a lot harder for P to win with enough left over and good enough macro to keep up with the new Z force.

IMO, the best Z counters to this are tech switches from roach/hyd to muta/corruptor/ling/bling with infestor support for both forces. once you air switch, P is forced to warp in more stalks and pump phoenixes, which usually results in horrible destruction when the hyds come back on the field.

On November 03 2010 07:01 HuskyHawk wrote:
Look, this is turning into bad theorycraft here so I'm I'll just say I disagree that roach/hydra/infestor autowins vs. chargelot/DT/phoenix/templar. The discussion about micro is pointless as micro is a very fluid and contextually based part of the game; there is not way to just predict the direct impact of different "levels of micro."

In my experience, when there are phoenixes on the field vs. Z, I am often the aggressor, which means I usually have some advantage over where and when engagements occur. As such, I often have my temps in a reasonable position to drop storms/feedback seers/feedback infestors. Its also important to note that if the P can get the storms off quick enough, there will be archons involved in the fight, moreso if the Z tries to avoid storms and chargelots by running away. I also have not seen a ton of Zs that can just nail growths on phoenixes darting around a seer, they are damn hard to hit (especially with their actual map position being off from their visual position in the air).

On November 03 2010 01:56 MorsCerta wrote:

I was not saying a P player will be stampeding observers into the battle. And if Zerg goes burrow roaches, storm will be delayed by the necessity for a robo bay and observers, neither of which this build gets early. Giving the zerg more time to build up a roach/hydra/infestor force.

Microing burrow on roaches like that is unnecessary in this situation, the point is to delay protoss tech and if protoss chooses to ignore the issue punish him. Once again observer snipe unnecessary. Microing seers from behind a line of 4 range roaches and 6 range hydras? Stalkers cant get close enough and Seers sitting over the infestors who have 9 range fungal growth will be fine.

The first thing I would fungal growth is the phoenix's. And then have a group of hydras destroy them as they die fairly easily. And flanking DT's will die in a heartbeat if you do not manage to kill my overseers. Second fungal growth is the chargelots, for obvious reasons.

Also Zerg macro takes maybe 2 seconds. Which I would delay until after the very important parts of the battle were over.

I feel like you are trying to completely discredit what I am saying, while I am simply saying that it is possible to counter this strategy. Just as every other strategy. Yes, if Roach/Hydra/Infestor is done poorly you can in fact defeat it with this, However I feel as though one executed superbly, in the ways I am trying to explain, would be a strong counter.

On November 03 2010 11:18 inn5013orecl wrote:



Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Z doesn't get as many Hydras out but rather gets infestor/roaches as well, that means Phoenix's will be able to get map control by avoiding the main zerg army. This will result in a lot of dead OL's or keeping Z in their base. This will happen well before enough infestors come out with FG.

Going burrow roaches can be delayed with cannons, which will not delay templar/storm tech. And once storm comes out burrow becomes useless again. And since you don't have that many hydras, toss can waste storms on the roaches...forcing them to unburrow to move away (delaying enough to get a few obs or templar energy upgrade). And once templars come out infestors also become quite useless...which allows phoenix's to kill the overseers and let the DT's do their work while the main toss gateway army takes care of the hydra/roach.

Ultimately what I'm saying is that burrow roaches won't be in time to force observers as long as toss turtles with cannons and uses phoenix for map control. And if infestors are opted for first...that should give toss enough time to get templar + storm again with a cannon turtle...keeping phoenixes slightly more passive until toss is ready to move out.