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I disagree that you can no longer put pressure off of a 2gate based opening. So long as you are willing to delay warpgate tech and throw some chronos on the gates, you can easily pressure or threaten pressure to FE zerg (which is about 95% of the Zs that I see at 1500-1900). My opening push is usually a 4-1-1 zlot/stalk/sent; I don't ever plan on doing more than stopping drone production and tech and annoying the shit out of the Z. IMO, if a Z isn't on a back foot, he's winning.
If they have the horrible idea to push with all roach or very very heavy roach, they will have very little to stop 4-5 nixes from mutilating the seers (with feedback on the field or without).
The key problem I'm still having with this build is against strong macro roach/hyd Z that know how to keep their overseers out of harms way (its really really hard to get phoenixes to do significant damage around a good hydra clump).
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I could see roach/hydra/infestor working well against this, which any zerg with a brain will go against chargelots and phoenix. And because you get detection so late burrow roaches can be a strong counter.
You force them into hydra's and they arent going to go pure hydras, roaches up front tanking and even without detection FG spam will catch some of the DTs. With Infestors behind your army FGing you cannot feedback snipe them. And I don't know about other zergs but I pretty much send in an overlord sacrifice like twice a minute. Unless you put your Dark Shrine somewhere outside your base it will get scouted and overseers will get made. And maybe other people have their overseers running into the middle of the battle but I keep mine over my infestors.
Now people will say but but roach/hydra/infestor/overseer is so gas intensive! Well so is dark templar/observer/stalker/sentry with chargelots and blink.
I would like to face this a couple times and see how it goes in game.
It does sound like a very solid strategy.
MorsCerta 125
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This strategy is not built around obs, blink stalkers, or sentries. The gas is getting eaten up by upgrades, DTs, temps, and phoenixes. If burrow abuse is in play, there will be at most a need for 2 obs; which is only a 300 gas investment (with robo).
In my experience, this isn't a single engagement/death ball type strategy, so the DTs will be recognized early on in the game. The strength of this comp against Z is that overseers are exceedingly difficult to keep alive if P ffs them and then engages. That said, I have had some serious trouble against Zs who have good seer micro keeping them between a hydra ball and my phoenixes, while still away from temps.
I have faced Zs that focus on more infestors, which usually can draw the game out, but not win it for them. templars eat infestors for lunch. They are always heavy on energy and have ridiculously low health; feedbacking them is usually pretty straightforward so long as the P engages from a good angle and doesnt let the temps fall to far back. Also, its not that hard to sneak a few DTs to the back of the Z force and snipe the infestors; they get 1 shotted by 2 DTs.
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On November 02 2010 07:42 HuskyHawk wrote: This strategy is not built around obs, blink stalkers, or sentries. The gas is getting eaten up by upgrades, DTs, temps, and phoenixes. If burrow abuse is in play, there will be at most a need for 2 obs; which is only a 300 gas investment (with robo).
In my experience, this isn't a single engagement/death ball type strategy, so the DTs will be recognized early on in the game. The strength of this comp against Z is that overseers are exceedingly difficult to keep alive if P ffs them and then engages. That said, I have had some serious trouble against Zs who have good seer micro keeping them between a hydra ball and my phoenixes, while still away from temps.
I have faced Zs that focus on more infestors, which usually can draw the game out, but not win it for them. templars eat infestors for lunch. They are always heavy on energy and have ridiculously low health; feedbacking them is usually pretty straightforward so long as the P engages from a good angle and doesnt let the temps fall to far back. Also, its not that hard to sneak a few DTs to the back of the Z force and snipe the infestors; they get 1 shotted by 2 DTs. Observers are necessary if the zerg goes burrow play...overseers+hydras will snipe oberservers, making you sink more gas into them.
If you even have enough gas for observers after DTs Phoenix's and templar
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Look, just as you argued for overseers not running into the middle of a battle, why would a P player start stampeding obs into a fight? The key difference is that if a Z wants to try and hunt down the obs, storms are gonna wreck house.
I don't play at a level where a Z can keep up with macro while simultaneously: 1.) microing burrow on roaches to maximize health and positioning 2.) microing hyds AND overseers to snipe obs 3.) WHILE sniping obs, microing overseers away from phoenixes, temps, and supporting stalks 4.) fungal growth with infestors WHILE keeping them positioned away from temps/flanking DTs
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On November 02 2010 10:19 HuskyHawk wrote: Look, just as you argued for overseers not running into the middle of a battle, why would a P player start stampeding obs into a fight? The key difference is that if a Z wants to try and hunt down the obs, storms are gonna wreck house.
I don't play at a level where a Z can keep up with macro while simultaneously: 1.) microing burrow on roaches to maximize health and positioning 2.) microing hyds AND overseers to snipe obs 3.) WHILE sniping obs, microing overseers away from phoenixes, temps, and supporting stalks 4.) fungal growth with infestors WHILE keeping them positioned away from temps/flanking DTs
I was not saying a P player will be stampeding observers into the battle. And if Zerg goes burrow roaches, storm will be delayed by the necessity for a robo bay and observers, neither of which this build gets early. Giving the zerg more time to build up a roach/hydra/infestor force.
Microing burrow on roaches like that is unnecessary in this situation, the point is to delay protoss tech and if protoss chooses to ignore the issue punish him. Once again observer snipe unnecessary. Microing seers from behind a line of 4 range roaches and 6 range hydras? Stalkers cant get close enough and Seers sitting over the infestors who have 9 range fungal growth will be fine.
The first thing I would fungal growth is the phoenix's. And then have a group of hydras destroy them as they die fairly easily. And flanking DT's will die in a heartbeat if you do not manage to kill my overseers. Second fungal growth is the chargelots, for obvious reasons.
Also Zerg macro takes maybe 2 seconds. Which I would delay until after the very important parts of the battle were over.
I feel like you are trying to completely discredit what I am saying, while I am simply saying that it is possible to counter this strategy. Just as every other strategy. Yes, if Roach/Hydra/Infestor is done poorly you can in fact defeat it with this, However I feel as though one executed superbly, in the ways I am trying to explain, would be a strong counter.
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Please delete, mods. This is a repeat of the next post.
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On November 03 2010 02:46 HuskyHawk wrote: I was not saying a P player will be stampeding observers into the battle. And if Zerg goes burrow roaches, storm will be delayed by the necessity for a robo bay and observers, neither of which this build gets early. Giving the zerg more time to build up a roach/hydra/infestor force.
Microing burrow on roaches like that is unnecessary in this situation, the point is to delay protoss tech and if protoss chooses to ignore the issue punish him. Once again observer snipe unnecessary. Microing seers from behind a line of 4 range roaches and 6 range hydras? Stalkers cant get close enough and Seers sitting over the infestors who have 9 range fungal growth will be fine.
The first thing I would fungal growth is the phoenix's. And then have a group of hydras destroy them as they die fairly easily. And flanking DT's will die in a heartbeat if you do not manage to kill my overseers. Second fungal growth is the chargelots, for obvious reasons.
Also Zerg macro takes maybe 2 seconds. Which I would delay until after the very important parts of the battle were over.
I feel like you are trying to completely discredit what I am saying, while I am simply saying that it is possible to counter this strategy. Just as every other strategy. Yes, if Roach/Hydra/Infestor is done poorly you can in fact defeat it with this, However I feel as though one executed superbly, in the ways I am trying to explain, would be a strong counter.
Fair enough, I wasn't trying to imply that this strat (much less any) is uncounterable. I was more trying to answer the micro differences that I felt were implied in how you described the Z counters to this strat. I agree that roach hydra is a strong combination against this, so long as you are nifty with your ovies and can keep them out of harms way.
I think one important thing to remember about this PvZ design is the predication on SMALL engagements. It can work in the 200/200 fights, but really isn't intended for battles larger than 50-70 food. Once the game has become a 200/200 replenishing brawl, Z has usually already won, regardless of gosu micro from the P.
If you are rolling out with 3-4 infestors, 20+ roaches, 10+hydras, and 2+seers (70+ food); its gonna be tough to hold off 20 chargelots, 6 DTs, 4 phoenix, and 4 temps (72 food) if micro is pretty comparable on both sides. However, if you map those comps up to maxed armies, it becomes a lot harder for P to win with enough left over and good enough macro to keep up with the new Z force.
IMO, the best Z counters to this are tech switches from roach/hyd to muta/corruptor/ling/bling with infestor support for both forces. once you air switch, P is forced to warp in more stalks and pump phoenixes, which usually results in horrible destruction when the hyds come back on the field.[/QUOTE]
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On November 03 2010 02:47 HuskyHawk wrote: If you are rolling out with 3-4 infestors, 20+ roaches, 10+hydras, and 2+seers (70+ food); its gonna be tough to hold off 20 chargelots, 6 DTs, 4 phoenix, and 4 temps (72 food) if micro is pretty comparable on both sides. However, if you map those comps up to maxed armies, it becomes a lot harder for P to win with enough left over and good enough macro to keep up with the new Z force.
Actually, with those army compositions and everything else being equal, the zerg should win. The roaches and hydras will eat the zealots so quickly that the zerg can afford to keep his overseers safely in the back where they can't get feedback sniped. Hydras can pick off the 4 phoenixes easily enough, the DTs won't be able to do enough damage in the meantime. Pre-roach buff, I frequently lost battles with those army compositions. I imagine that the post-roach buff, the zerg would have an even easier time winning.
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hey xdaunt are you gonna start playing again?! we should run some pvps if you are.
But yeah, roaches are really strong with their range now, unless you have voidrays/immortals with you I wouldn't ever use zealots against them. Stalkers are ok, but probably not when he also has infestors.
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On November 03 2010 03:51 Kiarip wrote: hey xdaunt are you gonna start playing again?! we should run some pvps if you are.
But yeah, roaches are really strong with their range now, unless you have voidrays/immortals with you I wouldn't ever use zealots against them. Stalkers are ok, but probably not when he also has infestors.
Sure, we can do some PvPs. I've started playing a bit again recently. I'm pretty rusty right now. My PvZ is particularly atrocious because of how much the game has changed. I've played 4 PvZ's and lost all of them to timing pushes that I'm not used to, especially because 2gating is dead.
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On November 03 2010 02:47 HuskyHawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 02:46 HuskyHawk wrote: I was not saying a P player will be stampeding observers into the battle. And if Zerg goes burrow roaches, storm will be delayed by the necessity for a robo bay and observers, neither of which this build gets early. Giving the zerg more time to build up a roach/hydra/infestor force.
Microing burrow on roaches like that is unnecessary in this situation, the point is to delay protoss tech and if protoss chooses to ignore the issue punish him. Once again observer snipe unnecessary. Microing seers from behind a line of 4 range roaches and 6 range hydras? Stalkers cant get close enough and Seers sitting over the infestors who have 9 range fungal growth will be fine.
The first thing I would fungal growth is the phoenix's. And then have a group of hydras destroy them as they die fairly easily. And flanking DT's will die in a heartbeat if you do not manage to kill my overseers. Second fungal growth is the chargelots, for obvious reasons.
Also Zerg macro takes maybe 2 seconds. Which I would delay until after the very important parts of the battle were over.
I feel like you are trying to completely discredit what I am saying, while I am simply saying that it is possible to counter this strategy. Just as every other strategy. Yes, if Roach/Hydra/Infestor is done poorly you can in fact defeat it with this, However I feel as though one executed superbly, in the ways I am trying to explain, would be a strong counter. Fair enough, I wasn't trying to imply that this strat (much less any) is uncounterable. I was more trying to answer the micro differences that I felt were implied in how you described the Z counters to this strat. I agree that roach hydra is a strong combination against this, so long as you are nifty with your ovies and can keep them out of harms way. I think one important thing to remember about this PvZ design is the predication on SMALL engagements. It can work in the 200/200 fights, but really isn't intended for battles larger than 50-70 food. Once the game has become a 200/200 replenishing brawl, Z has usually already won, regardless of gosu micro from the P. If you are rolling out with 3-4 infestors, 20+ roaches, 10+hydras, and 2+seers (70+ food); its gonna be tough to hold off 20 chargelots, 6 DTs, 4 phoenix, and 4 temps (72 food) if micro is pretty comparable on both sides. However, if you map those comps up to maxed armies, it becomes a lot harder for P to win with enough left over and good enough macro to keep up with the new Z force. IMO, the best Z counters to this are tech switches from roach/hyd to muta/corruptor/ling/bling with infestor support for both forces. once you air switch, P is forced to warp in more stalks and pump phoenixes, which usually results in horrible destruction when the hyds come back on the field. [/QUOTE] In what way would it be tough to hold off that combination of units? Your 4 phoenix will be fungaled as will your zealots before you can feedback infestors or seers, the DTs will die to hydras in 2 seconds and you will have to land some absolutely amazing storms on the hydras to down them.
If micro is comparable the protoss will get destroyed, not to mention you have NO observers in that army so if zerg has burrow and flanks (which is something I like to do,) then you will do even worse.
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i love when zerg go muta but i hate when zerg go roach hydra ... i actually am more comfortable dealing with muta ling xD
whatever, looking at your replay right now
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Look, this is turning into bad theorycraft here so I'm I'll just say I disagree that roach/hydra/infestor autowins vs. chargelot/DT/phoenix/templar. The discussion about micro is pointless as micro is a very fluid and contextually based part of the game; there is not way to just predict the direct impact of different "levels of micro."
In my experience, when there are phoenixes on the field vs. Z, I am often the aggressor, which means I usually have some advantage over where and when engagements occur. As such, I often have my temps in a reasonable position to drop storms/feedback seers/feedback infestors. Its also important to note that if the P can get the storms off quick enough, there will be archons involved in the fight, moreso if the Z tries to avoid storms and chargelots by running away. I also have not seen a ton of Zs that can just nail growths on phoenixes darting around a seer, they are damn hard to hit (especially with their actual map position being off from their visual position in the air).
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lol i read the part where he said im 1050 diamond and i was like . . . oh hes not good . . . but then i saw this was in september.
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Interesting but I fin it hard to justify all this tech when a robo transition is exponentially better. Dt's would be a sick transition but I find then innefective when Zerg has already thrown down sporecrawlers to deal with your phoenixes. After they get spore crawlers and sufficient hydra support this build relinquishes map control with slow and cumbersome tech. I'd rather have immortals against ultras anyways they murder ultralisks an collossi voidray is pretty unstoppable. My question is thus might work but going robo post Phoenix seems better.
Edit: nuke this post if u like now that I think about it this thread is too old and metagames are too different for this toto be viable
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On November 03 2010 07:01 HuskyHawk wrote: Look, this is turning into bad theorycraft here so I'm I'll just say I disagree that roach/hydra/infestor autowins vs. chargelot/DT/phoenix/templar. The discussion about micro is pointless as micro is a very fluid and contextually based part of the game; there is not way to just predict the direct impact of different "levels of micro."
In my experience, when there are phoenixes on the field vs. Z, I am often the aggressor, which means I usually have some advantage over where and when engagements occur. As such, I often have my temps in a reasonable position to drop storms/feedback seers/feedback infestors. Its also important to note that if the P can get the storms off quick enough, there will be archons involved in the fight, moreso if the Z tries to avoid storms and chargelots by running away. I also have not seen a ton of Zs that can just nail growths on phoenixes darting around a seer, they are damn hard to hit (especially with their actual map position being off from their visual position in the air). Let us try it then.
And hitting air units is not difficult if you use the helper thing, which I do.
MorsCerta - 125
Not that I am the best example of micro or macro in a zerg, my MMR is only like 1600ish but Assuming you are of around the same skill level (I dont know what you are) we can test it out.
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On November 03 2010 01:56 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 10:19 HuskyHawk wrote: Look, just as you argued for overseers not running into the middle of a battle, why would a P player start stampeding obs into a fight? The key difference is that if a Z wants to try and hunt down the obs, storms are gonna wreck house.
I don't play at a level where a Z can keep up with macro while simultaneously: 1.) microing burrow on roaches to maximize health and positioning 2.) microing hyds AND overseers to snipe obs 3.) WHILE sniping obs, microing overseers away from phoenixes, temps, and supporting stalks 4.) fungal growth with infestors WHILE keeping them positioned away from temps/flanking DTs
I was not saying a P player will be stampeding observers into the battle. And if Zerg goes burrow roaches, storm will be delayed by the necessity for a robo bay and observers, neither of which this build gets early. Giving the zerg more time to build up a roach/hydra/infestor force. Microing burrow on roaches like that is unnecessary in this situation, the point is to delay protoss tech and if protoss chooses to ignore the issue punish him. Once again observer snipe unnecessary. Microing seers from behind a line of 4 range roaches and 6 range hydras? Stalkers cant get close enough and Seers sitting over the infestors who have 9 range fungal growth will be fine. The first thing I would fungal growth is the phoenix's. And then have a group of hydras destroy them as they die fairly easily. And flanking DT's will die in a heartbeat if you do not manage to kill my overseers. Second fungal growth is the chargelots, for obvious reasons. Also Zerg macro takes maybe 2 seconds. Which I would delay until after the very important parts of the battle were over. I feel like you are trying to completely discredit what I am saying, while I am simply saying that it is possible to counter this strategy. Just as every other strategy. Yes, if Roach/Hydra/Infestor is done poorly you can in fact defeat it with this, However I feel as though one executed superbly, in the ways I am trying to explain, would be a strong counter.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Z doesn't get as many Hydras out but rather gets infestor/roaches as well, that means Phoenix's will be able to get map control by avoiding the main zerg army. This will result in a lot of dead OL's or keeping Z in their base. This will happen well before enough infestors come out with FG.
Going burrow roaches can be delayed with cannons, which will not delay templar/storm tech. And once storm comes out burrow becomes useless again. And since you don't have that many hydras, toss can waste storms on the roaches...forcing them to unburrow to move away (delaying enough to get a few obs or templar energy upgrade). And once templars come out infestors also become quite useless...which allows phoenix's to kill the overseers and let the DT's do their work while the main toss gateway army takes care of the hydra/roach.
Ultimately what I'm saying is that burrow roaches won't be in time to force observers as long as toss turtles with cannons and uses phoenix for map control. And if infestors are opted for first...that should give toss enough time to get templar + storm again with a cannon turtle...keeping phoenixes slightly more passive until toss is ready to move out.
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Yeah I've reattempted this build and I've found less success with it. It requires the zerg to not attack you for a very long time, or you to put on so much pressure that he can't get enough units. Since it's so immensely gas heavy it's difficult to pull this off with 2 bases, so you need to take a very very fast 3rd causing for even more vulnerability.
I've adapted the DT play into my late game however as It really catches the zerg off guard and straight up dishes out a shitton of damage.
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On November 03 2010 11:18 inn5013orecl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 01:56 MorsCerta wrote:On November 02 2010 10:19 HuskyHawk wrote: Look, just as you argued for overseers not running into the middle of a battle, why would a P player start stampeding obs into a fight? The key difference is that if a Z wants to try and hunt down the obs, storms are gonna wreck house.
I don't play at a level where a Z can keep up with macro while simultaneously: 1.) microing burrow on roaches to maximize health and positioning 2.) microing hyds AND overseers to snipe obs 3.) WHILE sniping obs, microing overseers away from phoenixes, temps, and supporting stalks 4.) fungal growth with infestors WHILE keeping them positioned away from temps/flanking DTs
I was not saying a P player will be stampeding observers into the battle. And if Zerg goes burrow roaches, storm will be delayed by the necessity for a robo bay and observers, neither of which this build gets early. Giving the zerg more time to build up a roach/hydra/infestor force. Microing burrow on roaches like that is unnecessary in this situation, the point is to delay protoss tech and if protoss chooses to ignore the issue punish him. Once again observer snipe unnecessary. Microing seers from behind a line of 4 range roaches and 6 range hydras? Stalkers cant get close enough and Seers sitting over the infestors who have 9 range fungal growth will be fine. The first thing I would fungal growth is the phoenix's. And then have a group of hydras destroy them as they die fairly easily. And flanking DT's will die in a heartbeat if you do not manage to kill my overseers. Second fungal growth is the chargelots, for obvious reasons. Also Zerg macro takes maybe 2 seconds. Which I would delay until after the very important parts of the battle were over. I feel like you are trying to completely discredit what I am saying, while I am simply saying that it is possible to counter this strategy. Just as every other strategy. Yes, if Roach/Hydra/Infestor is done poorly you can in fact defeat it with this, However I feel as though one executed superbly, in the ways I am trying to explain, would be a strong counter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Z doesn't get as many Hydras out but rather gets infestor/roaches as well, that means Phoenix's will be able to get map control by avoiding the main zerg army. This will result in a lot of dead OL's or keeping Z in their base. This will happen well before enough infestors come out with FG. Going burrow roaches can be delayed with cannons, which will not delay templar/storm tech. And once storm comes out burrow becomes useless again. And since you don't have that many hydras, toss can waste storms on the roaches...forcing them to unburrow to move away (delaying enough to get a few obs or templar energy upgrade). And once templars come out infestors also become quite useless...which allows phoenix's to kill the overseers and let the DT's do their work while the main toss gateway army takes care of the hydra/roach. Ultimately what I'm saying is that burrow roaches won't be in time to force observers as long as toss turtles with cannons and uses phoenix for map control. And if infestors are opted for first...that should give toss enough time to get templar + storm again with a cannon turtle...keeping phoenixes slightly more passive until toss is ready to move out. If you are phoenix harassing zerg will get enough hydras out to defend it. And probably place 2 spore crawlers in each base, maybe 3. Burrow roaches arent to attack with, it is to FORCE the protoss to get mobile detection. If you just cannon up and leave your base with an army and have no detection, you could walk right over one roach group to engage zergs main army only to get flanked.
In a perfect protoss world templars make infestors useless. However this is not the case. Not to mention if you want to waste storms on roaches go for it, I would much rather have you storming roaches then hydras.
I also dont think this strategy is meant to be played as a cannon turtle, its mean as an aggressive, harassing, expanding protoss. Maybe I am wrong but thats how I read it.
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