I've been playing zerg mostly but lately I've started to mess around with protoss because I like the option of early aggression. In my econ class today I was thinking about how protoss can wall off and realized that zerg can sorta do the same thing. In the end this might not end up that useful, but obviously there's a ton of experimentation that can be done to find a place for it.
Also, I apologize if this has already been talked about but I've never seen anyone do it.
Basically you place a 15 hatch at your ramp, and then 14 pool. Once your hatch pops the creep will spread and you can throw a quick evo chamber down next to it. Once your first queen is up it can complete the wall much like how a protoss use a pylon + gateway + zealot to block their ramp.
The disadvantage of the zerg wall off is that its the slowest one of all the races, also many people may not be sold on the second hatch in their main.
There are quite a few pros to this that I can think of though: - Spreads creep - More larvae - Early game defense
I was planning on using this in conjunction with a one base muta build.
Possible things to experiment with - - Hatchery canceling at ramp to get additional structures up more quickly on the leftover creep - spine crawlers to complete the wall instead of queens
I'm going to mess around with these later but right now I have to go to lunch
Nah. The extra hatch is nice, but if you're going to use it as a wall, it's going to be one of the first things attacked...might as well have it at your natural, which will be maybe...10 yard away from your ramp?
Also, in my opinion, the best part of what you've typed was this:
"- Hatchery canceling at ramp to get additional structures up more quickly on the leftover creep"
Sorry...but too slow and if you stay up with your injections you won't have a problem with larvae.
Your zerg wall is completely opposite of what the wall is supposed to do. Terran and protoss walls discourage cheese. Your wall welcomes it. The 2nd hatch thrown in a main is usually in mid game for extra larva unless you are going for 2 hatch ling.
People used to put hatches at their ramp in BW on certain maps. Later, they just learned how to hold of early aggression using cheaper tactics, and placed the hatch at their natural (which is far superior economically).
I think the hatch minerals could be better used to create 2 evo chambers which would effectively do the same thing, but also have the dual purpose of giving you access to spores and upgrades. This works well with spine crawlers if you are trying to build tight. HD makes a nice example of this in the vid below.
I don't really know if a wall off would be beneficial to the Zerg player either. The Zerg have a glorious deficit in ranged units early on and a wall off might block off your own troops from attacking. Unless you already have a group of speedlings outside of the base, a surround would also be impossible vs Terran. Maybe later in the game when you already have mutas a wall off would work (for me at least).
I like the idea of two evo chambers, but if you're trying to wall off this early in the game you're better off just making units to defend with those minerals and not wrecking your drone count. Plus we are mostly weak melee that early...in my opinion
Why wall off? You don't really gain anything, because you have no clear advantage on chokes or high ground until at least t1.5 units, but really not until you get hydras with upgraded range.
The wall off just seems pointless. Terran can wall off and use marines/marauders. Toss has stalkers.. Zerg has zerglings, which aren't particularly good at shooting things on the other side of a wall .
You also have roaches, but they're not terribly great at this job, either.
Do you really want a wall off? Doesn't the smaller choke point HELP to the other races? Early game you are going to have lots of zerglings and you need wide open spaces to get the surround. Maybe if you were going Roach it would help because you could tank the protoss one at a time while the roaches in the back get some damage.
Here's a better idea, walk a queen over to your choke, as well as a drone. Build a hatch, cancel, build a creep tumor on the leftover creep, and then pile spine crawlers in.
Really you don't need to wall in unless there's speedlings inc, and if there's speedlings coming in, just build banelings.
here's a slight alternative, Don't let the ramp hatch finish at all---
---instead, wait for your initial queen to pop and immediately run it to your ramp, then start a hatchery at your ramp and cancel it then place a creep tumor in the creep where the cancelled hatch once was. This will allow you to spread the creep on the ramp and proceed to block it with evo chambers/spine crawlers etc. without spending the full 300 minerals on the extra hatch.
so Pool > Queen > ramp hatch+cancel > creep tumor > evo chambers+spines to wall
pros: you've walled yourself in as zerg
cons: you have to build a pool first and wait until your queen pops then spend her initial energy on a creep tumor instead of larvae.
edit: I've tested this and it DOES work; however, I've yet to find a use for it other than on kulas' ravine, where you can wall yourself off and destroy the destructible rocks for an expansion instead of your natural.
I do this regulary (middle gold, still not familar with TvP and Zerg midgame ;-) ). I wall of with 13/14 hatch 13 pool then spine crawler beneth 2cnd hatch, then 1st queen at 2cnd hatch (around 5:00). Zerg has a ramp advantage, because attackers do not see the spine and can't attack it easily. Block ramp (so enemy is not able to walk up for sight) with some lings+queen. This way you need very few troops to defend, you can skip speed safely and play quick lair + early muta (7:30 to 8:00). However you'll want to double expand (or at least pretty quick 3rd) once muta harass starts. Gold terrans are not used to it and regulary loose a lot of troops with A move tactics ramp up ..
On September 01 2010 02:25 Sanguinarius wrote: I dont understand how a wall off would help you as a zerg player.
It took 10 years of BW to realize some kind of walls help zerg.
Recently, playing P, I had a difficult time killing a zerg with mutas and like a dozen spine crawlers behind one hatch and other buildings. I actually had to wait until my +3 ground up to take over everything.
On September 01 2010 04:06 Torment wrote: here's a slight alternative, Don't let the ramp hatch finish at all---
---instead, wait for your initial queen to pop and immediately run it to your ramp, then start a hatchery at your ramp and cancel it then place a creep tumor in the creep where the cancelled hatch once was. This will allow you to spread the creep on the ramp and proceed to block it with evo chambers/spine crawlers etc. without spending the full 300 minerals on the extra hatch.
so Pool > Queen > ramp hatch+cancel > creep tumor > evo chambers+spines to wall
pros: you've walled yourself in as zerg
cons: you have to build a pool first and wait until your queen pops then spend her initial energy on a creep tumor instead of larvae.
edit: I've tested this and it DOES work; however, I've yet to find a use for it other than on kulas' ravine, where you can wall yourself off and destroy the destructible rocks for an expansion instead of your natural.
Lol why would you do that.
Is way better to queen -> tumor on the edge of your creep + spines -> keep growing with the tumor -> move the spines.
Why would you lose 75 mins for nothing?
Actually, zerg walls use to be great at EXPANSIONS in bw. Maybe 15 hatch in expa and making some kind of wall so the way to the ram is longer so few spines can get many free hits. Thats the way you do it.
here's a slight alternative, Don't let the ramp hatch finish at all---
---instead, wait for your initial queen to pop and immediately run it to your ramp, then start a hatchery at your ramp and cancel it then place a creep tumor in the creep where the cancelled hatch once was. This will allow you to spread the creep on the ramp and proceed to block it with evo chambers/spine crawlers etc. without spending the full 300 minerals on the extra hatch.
so Pool > Queen > ramp hatch+cancel > creep tumor > evo chambers+spines to wall
pros: you've walled yourself in as zerg
cons: you have to build a pool first and wait until your queen pops then spend her initial energy on a creep tumor instead of larvae.
edit: I've tested this and it DOES work; however, I've yet to find a use for it other than on kulas' ravine, where you can wall yourself off and destroy the destructible rocks for an expansion instead of your natural.
Lol why would you do that.
Is way better to queen -> tumor on the edge of your creep + spines -> keep growing with the tumor -> move the spines.
Why would you lose 75 mins for nothing?
Actually, zerg walls use to be great at EXPANSIONS in bw. Maybe 15 hatch in expa and making some kind of wall so the way to the ram is longer so few spines can get many free hits. Thats the way you do it.
I did it as more of a proof-of-concept than anything, the fact that you can cancel a hatchery and place a creep tumor on the resulting patch of creep. I also listed the pros/cons of the build (notice there really were not any strategic advantages mentioned.)
Another question arises - what if the idea behind the hatch at ramp is not for walling in but for larvae and defence for early mid?
1-2 spines at ramp are a great defence which can benefit against that marauderpush that terran can, and often will, throw out in early mid-game. It should also avoid gettin overrun by 4gate toss.
I know that these strategies can be defended in other ways. But wouldn't a 2nd hatch and spines be cheaper and more efficient? Still, you loose alot of mapcontrol and mobility which is what Z today is all about. However, that is something you can regain quite easily when you get mutas.
And furthermore, do we need our 1st expansion as early as we often get it? I usually expand vs Toss during my sling harassment. Vs. terran it differs depending on what he's doing.
On September 01 2010 05:39 RedHed wrote: Another question arises - what if the idea behind the hatch at ramp is not for walling in but for larvae and defence for early mid?
1-2 spines at ramp are a great defence which can benefit against that marauderpush that terran can, and often will, throw out in early mid-game. It should also avoid gettin overrun by 4gate toss.
I know that these strategies can be defended in other ways. But wouldn't a 2nd hatch and spines be cheaper and more efficient? Still, you loose alot of mapcontrol and mobility which is what Z today is all about. However, that is something you can regain quite easily when you get mutas.
And furthermore, do we need our 1st expansion as early as we often get it? I usually expand vs Toss during my sling harassment. Vs. terran it differs depending on what he's doing.
You can use it for blocking as well as larvae. This is quite cheese proof, so i delay scouting until i have lings or just ovie. An early second at nat requires you to get speed before lair, so your mutas will come later. Anyway the major advantage of first expo is more gas income. I think blocking in base lair is good for us gold to diamond, cause its more safe. If played well, an early expo maybe better, however you quickly loose to small errors or failed scouting ..
Why would you build a hatch for creep? I'm not a zerg player but can't you just use a overlord to "vomit" the creep on the ramp and place a tumor there?
i actually tried to wall in with hatch + x. does not work. even if you build it square on square, small units can get through on the edges, only works on 2 positions of metalopolis and thats it. every other map except maybe for kula you can slip through the side
I don't understand why you would wall off at all as zerg. the only reason Terran and Toss wall off afaik because of ling run-by. a zerg would benefit more from a sim-city if anything, but would probably fare best in a spread out sense, at least in your main, as ling surrounds are easier in a spread out base.
On September 01 2010 18:35 lovewithlea wrote: i actually tried to wall in with hatch + x. does not work. even if you build it square on square, small units can get through on the edges, only works on 2 positions of metalopolis and thats it. every other map except maybe for kula you can slip through the side
The wallin must not be closed. Put in-base hatch + spine at ramp, then use a queen and 2-6 lings to block the ramp. If enemy tries to run up the ramp, your zergs+queen block them so they do not get sight while beeing poked by the spine (they barely can't attack it). This way you can stand early pushs with minimal defense. Even tanks can't attack as long they do not have sight. Micro your lings and queen not to run down the ramp to follow the enemy, you'l want to fight only within range of your spine.
On September 01 2010 18:33 mandigal wrote: Why would you build a hatch for creep? I'm not a zerg player but can't you just use a overlord to "vomit" the creep on the ramp and place a tumor there?
Nah, you need Lair before you can start crapping creep.
I have mentioned already afew times that I like a Zerg Hatch wall off. It's really useful on Lost Temple, because it takes the cliff at the natural out of the game, and allows fast lair without sacrificing queens. And once lair is done you get all the upgrades faster too.
Can work on other maps, but on those just getting the expansion is usually better.
The good thing about a Zerg wall-off is, if you go nydus, you never need to open your wall again, and can expand to islands, so you force air. and can prepare accordingly.
EPT
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