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I've been having a hard time recently holding off protoss players who use a lot of archons especially with sentries and HT to control the battle. I've tried every unit and nothing seems to noticeably work better. the best I've managed is trying to micro hydras and screen with roaches, but force fields and storms are eating me up.
Typically I start with a early poke with lings followed by a timing push with fairly early 6 or so roaches and 8 lings at around the 6-7 minute mark. this usually kills off a few units and puts pause to protoss advance while I get my first expo completed, from then I just macro up and go queen roach hydra's for a mid game push before transitioning into whatever is appropriate, but I am having a hard time trying to figure out what can stop 8-10 archons.
And please no "don't let him get those" posts please, it's happened to me while i had him contained to his expo and somehow that push sent me all the way back and led to a loss...was scary. I'm only copper so i know I'm still learning but any idea's for a good transition would be nice, I just don't want to have to change my build too much, I've been having a fair amount of success with it until now.
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Brood Lords. That composition is so gas heavy you should be able to get them out in time.
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Yeesh, 8-10 archons?
Was this off of two bases, or three?
What else what his unit comp? or was it all archons?
Do you happen to have a replay?'
Edit: As doubled said; broodlords are a good decision. With such a gas heavy composition, it's going to cut into stalker numbers a bit.
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people make 8-10 archons? wut
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Why does everyone post these questions without a replay
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Kite him with Hydras? Should be no problem on creep. Can Infestors NP Archons?
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well usually when i see toss players go archons against me (which is rare and i haven't lost to it) i usually go hydra compesition and engage them on creep, you'll be able to kite the archons quite well.
though if hes massing the archons before forming them from hts after storm, i guess it comes down to your lack of harass. archons are quite slow, so constant back stabs with lings and mutas will keep him posted in his base, while thats happening keep expoing and you'll just eventually over swarm him.
but if you post replays people can give you much better advice.
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Sorry, no replay on hand, was zelots, high templer, and sentry's and a few archon's when i pushed he force fielded my army off and dumped storms before holding back out of range and adding more archons. once his archons are built he lets the forcefields die and the archons just obliterated my force. I was +2 +1 at the time and had felt confident going into the fight but nothing seemed to really slow them down. I definatly think Brood lords would have helped I'm just always nervous of the time it takes to tech to them. Just strikes me that they are technically good against every zerg unit, being bio and them being only psyonic had me scratching my head during the game on what to do.
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Trust me on this; I HATE fighting broodlords as a diamond toss player (~600). I need a combination of blink stalkers, and air units to get in there and deal with them, and zealots to help tank against zerglings on the ground (which, with Broodlords being so gas heavy, zerglings complement them nicely)
Archons are big. This means that there's a lot of space for broodlings to surround, get in there and wreak havoc, especially since the splash has been reduced compared to brood-war. Keeping those broodlords on ledges and away from archons is a good idea, and the broodlings will muck up the pathing of his units (which is a good thing for you, and is probably a big thing to deal with in the lower leagues).
The only time you SHOULDN'T go with a heavy airforce is if you spot mass amounts of air on his side (void rays, phoenixes. Carriers just die though, so feel free to get a lot of corruptors if you see those on the field) and a lot of stalkers on the ground. (VRs suck at toasting zerglings, phoenixes can't shoot the ground, and carriers are easily dispatched by Corruption+corruptors).
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Ultralisks. If he has that many archons you should be able to have the same amount, if not more. Although archons do bonus damage to ultras as well, The ultralisk's hp + armor should handle it nicely. Always attempt to achieve the best surround you can in the shortest amount of time. Infestors help, but if you feel that might be too micro heavy, hydra/roach support for your ultra's will do nicely.
And remember, if you have him contained, macro macro macro!!
Edit: Oh! and with Ultras, you don't have to worry about his sentry's force field ^__^
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Let us do some quick maths for this bizarre accusation that the op is putting forward.
Archon - 100 minerals, 300 gas.
8 x Archon - 800 minerals, 2400 gas.
Sentry - 50 minerals, 100 gas.
5~ x Sentry - 250 minerals, 500 gas.
High Templar - 50 minerals, 150 gas.
4~ x High Templar - 200 minerals, 600 gas.
8Archon + 5Sentry + 4HT - 1250 minerals, 3500 gas.
On two bases, the rate of gas collection is 400+ per game minute. So at the minimum, it'll take 9~ minutes AFTER getting his expo up AND ignoring the gas cost of getting all the tech structures required to make these units.
What the fuck were you doing for 9 minutes? Don't come here complaining about a ridiculous build when you don't even have a replay to show us how you flopped that game.
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GUY
tell us league/points.
replay, specific shit.
When I see archons, its either early game and its a easy win for me, because its so gas heavy.
Hydra/Ling is excellent in counter it, late game, brood lords / lings, will work. Its not seen often, lots of toss players just make them because they don't have enough energy on their templars. IMO they are alot of ways to kill archons, it all depends on how many units you have, creep, e.t.c.
Just don't go muta against archon..
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you say you dont wanna change your build order too much because youve been having so much success with it but your in bronze....
i will never understand those who seek help but are too stuborn to actually cooperate with the people helping in order to get better.
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HTs are pretty much useless in this game vs. Mutalisks so you should try a switch onto mutas and if he starts to produce only stalkers from their on you can easily go back to Roach/hydra.
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I mean just look at the economics of it. If they have 8 archons that means that they have 2400 gas put into it; so for zerg that gas could be spent on: 16 infestors, 24 mutalisks, 48 hydralisks etc... w/o replay it's hard to say what the conditions of your game were but it seems like the equivalent zerg force would at least have a fighting chance (likely better) against 8 archons.
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You're getting out macro'ed. You can beat archons with lings and surround.
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Was about to do the math calculations, but someone beat me too it. 3500 gas without the cost of tech structures and skills. Quite the collection. By comparison that's 35 mutas, 70 hydralisks, or 140 Roaches (yes I know you can't have that many in a game).
Oooo that brings me to roach micro. That's probably a viable counter to that composition.
It comes out to about 12 roaches per archon, and with a bit of roach micro it shouldn't really be an issue.
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On August 31 2010 14:49 Tiny.pat wrote:
HTs are pretty much useless in this game vs. Mutalisks so you should try a switch onto mutas and if he starts to produce only stalkers from their on you can easily go back to Roach/hydra.
HTs are quite good against mutalisks, you just need to know where to storm since the mutalisk placement is offset from where it appears to be. Sentries are much better against mutalisks, so it's much stronger to transition into HT/sentries if anything, which can destroy roach/hydra. I'd still say roaches with liar roach tech is probably the way to go against this composition.
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Lol the amount of people in this thread who consider themselves so elite is ridiculous, especially considering the number who give horrible information.
Archons/HT/Zealot will DESTROY a Muta-Ling build. At least if a person is half decent at playing. (Note: When the Mutas hit your base, hit his base). Storm destroys Mutalisks, especially when complimented by Archons (if you attack his base he is forced to engage your Archons with his Mutalisks... aka: Dead Mutalisks). As long as you keep up on weapons upgrades, you are in good shape.
To the guy who said ULTRALISKS against Archons... wow. I don't know how else to say it but quite simply, you are wrong. If he has even a few Stalkers behind his Archons, your Ultralisks will die brutally. Archons take +4 damage for every attack upgrade. This means 1 Upgrade makes them 1 shot Zerglings with heavy splash regardless of their upgrades, and 2 upgrades makes them 2 shot Hydras. Archons are also not armored, so ultralisks have to attack 24 times to clear through them... With Archons and Ultralisks size, only a couple will attack at once. Archons do more damage to Ultras than the other way around. Rather than spouting your theory about his gas spending and saying that Ultralisks should work well, you should wait till you have tried it before giving people advice. It is pretty commonly known in fact that Archons are one of the Protoss' few counters to ultralisks.
Also, just saying that archon builds are stupid is pretty asinine guys. Have you tried it? Have you had it used on you? Probably not because it is exceedingly rare. I have been using a lot of Archons against Zerg, and when combined with proper Force Fields and Zealots (mix in a few Stalkers to handle Mutas and Ultras), it can be truely devastating. I always morph in 2 Archons before Storm finishes researching and more and more as my HT run out of energy.
Now 8-10 sounds like a bit of a hyperbole... I cannot imagine that being too reliable, simply because of the gas investment... I assume he had upgrades, since they make Archons so devastating.
My advice fighting large amounts of archons (however rare) is this... Brood Lords work well, but make sure you engage in an area they can't get at you, since they do such heavy damage but have short range.
Fungal Growth is pretty nice, since their range is so bad.
Never ever make Mutalisks, Zerglings or Banelings.
Hydralisks are faster than them on creep, so you should be able to kite. Watch for force fields... just a couple and your Hydras can't run... dead Hydras.
But most importantly... Archons never appear to be low on HP, because their shields are so big. They also regenerate VERY quickly, so any damage you deal to an Archon is only temporary, unless you kill it. So focus fire them down, or you will never kill anything.
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IF the game would ever go that long you should have already killed him off with Muta Harass, 'nuff said. If you ever want to win with Zerg always be prepared to switch to 3-4 Mutalisks whenever necessary as it will stall the opponent into attacking you. MAKE sure you scout your base vs Observers, I've learned quickly those guys can kill the game for you. 
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EPT
