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I've been having a hard time recently holding off protoss players who use a lot of archons especially with sentries and HT to control the battle. I've tried every unit and nothing seems to noticeably work better. the best I've managed is trying to micro hydras and screen with roaches, but force fields and storms are eating me up.
Typically I start with a early poke with lings followed by a timing push with fairly early 6 or so roaches and 8 lings at around the 6-7 minute mark. this usually kills off a few units and puts pause to protoss advance while I get my first expo completed, from then I just macro up and go queen roach hydra's for a mid game push before transitioning into whatever is appropriate, but I am having a hard time trying to figure out what can stop 8-10 archons.
And please no "don't let him get those" posts please, it's happened to me while i had him contained to his expo and somehow that push sent me all the way back and led to a loss...was scary. I'm only copper so i know I'm still learning but any idea's for a good transition would be nice, I just don't want to have to change my build too much, I've been having a fair amount of success with it until now.
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Brood Lords. That composition is so gas heavy you should be able to get them out in time.
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Yeesh, 8-10 archons?
Was this off of two bases, or three?
What else what his unit comp? or was it all archons?
Do you happen to have a replay?'
Edit: As doubled said; broodlords are a good decision. With such a gas heavy composition, it's going to cut into stalker numbers a bit.
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people make 8-10 archons? wut
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Why does everyone post these questions without a replay
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Kite him with Hydras? Should be no problem on creep. Can Infestors NP Archons?
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well usually when i see toss players go archons against me (which is rare and i haven't lost to it) i usually go hydra compesition and engage them on creep, you'll be able to kite the archons quite well.
though if hes massing the archons before forming them from hts after storm, i guess it comes down to your lack of harass. archons are quite slow, so constant back stabs with lings and mutas will keep him posted in his base, while thats happening keep expoing and you'll just eventually over swarm him.
but if you post replays people can give you much better advice.
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Sorry, no replay on hand, was zelots, high templer, and sentry's and a few archon's when i pushed he force fielded my army off and dumped storms before holding back out of range and adding more archons. once his archons are built he lets the forcefields die and the archons just obliterated my force. I was +2 +1 at the time and had felt confident going into the fight but nothing seemed to really slow them down. I definatly think Brood lords would have helped I'm just always nervous of the time it takes to tech to them. Just strikes me that they are technically good against every zerg unit, being bio and them being only psyonic had me scratching my head during the game on what to do.
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Trust me on this; I HATE fighting broodlords as a diamond toss player (~600). I need a combination of blink stalkers, and air units to get in there and deal with them, and zealots to help tank against zerglings on the ground (which, with Broodlords being so gas heavy, zerglings complement them nicely)
Archons are big. This means that there's a lot of space for broodlings to surround, get in there and wreak havoc, especially since the splash has been reduced compared to brood-war. Keeping those broodlords on ledges and away from archons is a good idea, and the broodlings will muck up the pathing of his units (which is a good thing for you, and is probably a big thing to deal with in the lower leagues).
The only time you SHOULDN'T go with a heavy airforce is if you spot mass amounts of air on his side (void rays, phoenixes. Carriers just die though, so feel free to get a lot of corruptors if you see those on the field) and a lot of stalkers on the ground. (VRs suck at toasting zerglings, phoenixes can't shoot the ground, and carriers are easily dispatched by Corruption+corruptors).
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Ultralisks. If he has that many archons you should be able to have the same amount, if not more. Although archons do bonus damage to ultras as well, The ultralisk's hp + armor should handle it nicely. Always attempt to achieve the best surround you can in the shortest amount of time. Infestors help, but if you feel that might be too micro heavy, hydra/roach support for your ultra's will do nicely.
And remember, if you have him contained, macro macro macro!!
Edit: Oh! and with Ultras, you don't have to worry about his sentry's force field ^__^
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Let us do some quick maths for this bizarre accusation that the op is putting forward.
Archon - 100 minerals, 300 gas.
8 x Archon - 800 minerals, 2400 gas.
Sentry - 50 minerals, 100 gas.
5~ x Sentry - 250 minerals, 500 gas.
High Templar - 50 minerals, 150 gas.
4~ x High Templar - 200 minerals, 600 gas.
8Archon + 5Sentry + 4HT - 1250 minerals, 3500 gas.
On two bases, the rate of gas collection is 400+ per game minute. So at the minimum, it'll take 9~ minutes AFTER getting his expo up AND ignoring the gas cost of getting all the tech structures required to make these units.
What the fuck were you doing for 9 minutes? Don't come here complaining about a ridiculous build when you don't even have a replay to show us how you flopped that game.
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GUY
tell us league/points.
replay, specific shit.
When I see archons, its either early game and its a easy win for me, because its so gas heavy.
Hydra/Ling is excellent in counter it, late game, brood lords / lings, will work. Its not seen often, lots of toss players just make them because they don't have enough energy on their templars. IMO they are alot of ways to kill archons, it all depends on how many units you have, creep, e.t.c.
Just don't go muta against archon..
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you say you dont wanna change your build order too much because youve been having so much success with it but your in bronze....
i will never understand those who seek help but are too stuborn to actually cooperate with the people helping in order to get better.
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HTs are pretty much useless in this game vs. Mutalisks so you should try a switch onto mutas and if he starts to produce only stalkers from their on you can easily go back to Roach/hydra.
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I mean just look at the economics of it. If they have 8 archons that means that they have 2400 gas put into it; so for zerg that gas could be spent on: 16 infestors, 24 mutalisks, 48 hydralisks etc... w/o replay it's hard to say what the conditions of your game were but it seems like the equivalent zerg force would at least have a fighting chance (likely better) against 8 archons.
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You're getting out macro'ed. You can beat archons with lings and surround.
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Was about to do the math calculations, but someone beat me too it. 3500 gas without the cost of tech structures and skills. Quite the collection. By comparison that's 35 mutas, 70 hydralisks, or 140 Roaches (yes I know you can't have that many in a game).
Oooo that brings me to roach micro. That's probably a viable counter to that composition.
It comes out to about 12 roaches per archon, and with a bit of roach micro it shouldn't really be an issue.
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On August 31 2010 14:49 Tiny.pat wrote:
HTs are pretty much useless in this game vs. Mutalisks so you should try a switch onto mutas and if he starts to produce only stalkers from their on you can easily go back to Roach/hydra.
HTs are quite good against mutalisks, you just need to know where to storm since the mutalisk placement is offset from where it appears to be. Sentries are much better against mutalisks, so it's much stronger to transition into HT/sentries if anything, which can destroy roach/hydra. I'd still say roaches with liar roach tech is probably the way to go against this composition.
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Lol the amount of people in this thread who consider themselves so elite is ridiculous, especially considering the number who give horrible information.
Archons/HT/Zealot will DESTROY a Muta-Ling build. At least if a person is half decent at playing. (Note: When the Mutas hit your base, hit his base). Storm destroys Mutalisks, especially when complimented by Archons (if you attack his base he is forced to engage your Archons with his Mutalisks... aka: Dead Mutalisks). As long as you keep up on weapons upgrades, you are in good shape.
To the guy who said ULTRALISKS against Archons... wow. I don't know how else to say it but quite simply, you are wrong. If he has even a few Stalkers behind his Archons, your Ultralisks will die brutally. Archons take +4 damage for every attack upgrade. This means 1 Upgrade makes them 1 shot Zerglings with heavy splash regardless of their upgrades, and 2 upgrades makes them 2 shot Hydras. Archons are also not armored, so ultralisks have to attack 24 times to clear through them... With Archons and Ultralisks size, only a couple will attack at once. Archons do more damage to Ultras than the other way around. Rather than spouting your theory about his gas spending and saying that Ultralisks should work well, you should wait till you have tried it before giving people advice. It is pretty commonly known in fact that Archons are one of the Protoss' few counters to ultralisks.
Also, just saying that archon builds are stupid is pretty asinine guys. Have you tried it? Have you had it used on you? Probably not because it is exceedingly rare. I have been using a lot of Archons against Zerg, and when combined with proper Force Fields and Zealots (mix in a few Stalkers to handle Mutas and Ultras), it can be truely devastating. I always morph in 2 Archons before Storm finishes researching and more and more as my HT run out of energy.
Now 8-10 sounds like a bit of a hyperbole... I cannot imagine that being too reliable, simply because of the gas investment... I assume he had upgrades, since they make Archons so devastating.
My advice fighting large amounts of archons (however rare) is this... Brood Lords work well, but make sure you engage in an area they can't get at you, since they do such heavy damage but have short range.
Fungal Growth is pretty nice, since their range is so bad.
Never ever make Mutalisks, Zerglings or Banelings.
Hydralisks are faster than them on creep, so you should be able to kite. Watch for force fields... just a couple and your Hydras can't run... dead Hydras.
But most importantly... Archons never appear to be low on HP, because their shields are so big. They also regenerate VERY quickly, so any damage you deal to an Archon is only temporary, unless you kill it. So focus fire them down, or you will never kill anything.
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IF the game would ever go that long you should have already killed him off with Muta Harass, 'nuff said. If you ever want to win with Zerg always be prepared to switch to 3-4 Mutalisks whenever necessary as it will stall the opponent into attacking you. MAKE sure you scout your base vs Observers, I've learned quickly those guys can kill the game for you. 
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Well thanks to some of you for not being too hard on me especially Zanez.smarty, cause that sounds about what my usual opponent who does this is like. But myesh, i've started transitioning to broodlords earlier and getting a few more hydras, he still beat me but i held my ground alot better i think i just need the timings down a bit better as my initial push wasn't as strong.
also, to charlie42024, I found your comment to be especially unhelpful and rude. Sure I'm in bronze but if I have made a build that holds its own against all the other builds I've encountered before encountering this including the usual cheese....with queens no less, I don't see why asking for transition idea's or tactics is being stubborn.
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Archons..thats late game and very gas heavy. Probably you are letting him get to much expo's.
I can't think of a Protoss who would have 8-10 Archons in a game without you letting him build up.
Do you have a replay?
Timings are scout dependant, do you scout enough? Do you expand enough?
I don't want to be rude, but winning in bronze (apart from the cheese stuff there) should be easy with only a standard build/ and keeping your macro up.
Next time please save a replay, and let us comment on that.
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in your position, any roach hydra combo should be able to take that force out. True, archons may counter large balls, but the roaches keep the hydra's safe, allowing them to get their damage in. In 9 minutes with a strong contain, you should be able to get a 200/200 army easily, with enough saved up to build another 30 units as reinforcements.
Note: this is assuming he warped in the archons before sending them on the field as HT's. If he is using HT's, use a force of zerglings / muta's to bait him into using his energy, and move in when he's started morphing. Broodlords, as previously mentioned, also help, but you need to start those way ahead of the confrontation. Scout him from time to time, see what he's building up. See a templars archive? Go broods. Multiple stargates? Corrupter / ling (lings to hit the mineral lines when your corrupters are engaging his air). Robo? Get mutalisks. Mass gateway? Ultra+hydra.
You're a zerg, outmacro him  On that note, on how many bases were you? A solid contain is a very good reason to start expansions, in the given situation you should be on a minimum of 3 mining bases, and that's assuming your main is mined out (so 4 bases total, 70+ drones).
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yeah what Demus said
roach hydra really is the best option when tempar tech come into play
though I'd say beating him in upgrades will also be an important factor since guardian shield can make archons a pain to take down
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This is just theory but you can Fungal growth the archons and proceed to snipe them with hydras. But infestors are vulnerable to feedback...
I'd just say roaches, honestly.
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In theory this is the kind of unit NP was designed to counter. Low range, high DPS, tons of HP.
Since NP has been nerfed into the ground, and Blizzard seems to have no intention to fix it, stick with Fungal Growth + Hydras or BroodLords.
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Archons are incredibly powerful.
Recently I've been going Chargelot/Archon (Occasionally completely skipping HT tech all together, and using the gas for HT for Straight Archons and Upgrades)
I think at +2 weapons, Mutas die in 3 hits to Archons. And if he goes hard mutas, he won't have enough ground to fight your Zealots, and there was a thread earlier stating weapon upgrade "milestones" and I think at +3 they one shot workers, which is kinda awesome.
Archons are actually awesome vs. Zerg, because they -always- get their damage bonus,
Hydras really are probably your best option. Banelings aren't that good against Zealots (Takes like 3 to kill one) Hydras have high damage potential, but fall to a zealot charge pretty fast. Ultras while good against Zealots, take forever to come out, and even longer replace when they fall. With warpgates, you can replace HT very quickly for Storms and new Archons (I think its a 55second cooldown for a HT gate, + the archon warp time), but if you have Khaydarin you storm then you can warp them.
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Archons are also not armored, so ultralisks have to attack 24 times to clear through them...
Don't shields take full damage from everything, so ultralisks will use their armored attack
damage on archons?
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I knew this would start happening. Archons are one of the trickiest things for the Zerg to deal with especially in mass. The trick to countering this is the fact that both roaches and hydralisks can outrange the Archon. What does this mean? Well it means with some well placed fungal growth an Archon based army basically can't touch you.
I mean it's not easy to do but it's not difficulty either, with some practice Archons become nothing but expensive cannon fodder.
EDIT: Yeah to all those people flaming, there is absolutley nothing in the Zerg arsenal that is cost effective against archons. When Archons start to reach critical mass which is basically 4+ the cost effectiveness starts getting tremendously bad which at that point I must insist on Fungal Growth.
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On August 31 2010 17:44 Asmodeaus wrote:
Well thanks to some of you for not being too hard on me especially Zanez.smarty, cause that sounds about what my usual opponent who does this is like. But myesh, i've started transitioning to broodlords earlier and getting a few more hydras, he still beat me but i held my ground alot better i think i just need the timings down a bit better as my initial push wasn't as strong.
also, to charlie42024, I found your comment to be especially unhelpful and rude. Sure I'm in bronze but if I have made a build that holds its own against all the other builds I've encountered before encountering this including the usual cheese....with queens no less, I don't see why asking for transition idea's or tactics is being stubborn.
It is being stubborn because the fact that you are in bronze suggests your build is bad, or you are exceedingly terrible at its execution. Probably both, but probably your build is bad too. How about we play a number of games in a row and see how your build that you made holds up?
I change my build all the time when I discover various timing changes from people who are better. Dunno why you are so stubborn in thinking that your build is so good.
Anyways, not really commenting on your build because that has nothing to do with the question posed. What I am curious about is why you mention that build and then ask how to use it against a build that is so far down the line that it is ridiculous. 6 roaches and 8 lings at 6-7 minutes (somehow I have a feeling it is closer to 7 than 6...) says nothing about what you will have someone like 9 minutes later when his push actually comes. Besides, if he's going that gas heavy he will have pretty much no stalkers unless he wants to delay his push even more. Given that, your roaches should be able to prevent him from expanding so long as you match his army. If you do that, he gets forced into stalker and his push will probably come 10-11 minutes after you arrive at his base. In this meantime you could probably win even with blind roach macro.
Another thing that doesn't make any sense. You say Archon/HT/Sentry. Where are all his minerals going? Does he come with a lot of zealots too? Fungal will destroy that. Hell, they'll destroy the archons too. You should be able to at least get 3 bases fully running and produce a large army by the time he comes with the main push, even if you are in bronze. Don't see how this can be hard unless he is going zealot/sentry early push transitioning in HT. And if he does that, why even get archons unless the zerg is blindly massing ling.
In fact, if he does that he won't be able to do jack shit vs muta. Just hold with roaches and destroy his mineral line with either muta, or if you want to be cute, with burrowed roaches.
Summary - unless you provide a replay, I am going to believe that the real reason you can't hold this off is not because of the unit composition but because your economy goes to hell during early zealot/sentry harass and you do not know how to deal with it.
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On September 01 2010 00:10 DreamSailor wrote:
Archons are incredibly powerful.
Recently I've been going Chargelot/Archon (Occasionally completely skipping HT tech all together, and using the gas for HT for Straight Archons and Upgrades)
I think at +2 weapons, Mutas die in 3 hits to Archons. And if he goes hard mutas, he won't have enough ground to fight your Zealots, and there was a thread earlier stating weapon upgrade "milestones" and I think at +3 they one shot workers, which is kinda awesome.
Archons are actually awesome vs. Zerg, because they -always- get their damage bonus,
Hydras really are probably your best option. Banelings aren't that good against Zealots (Takes like 3 to kill one) Hydras have high damage potential, but fall to a zealot charge pretty fast. Ultras while good against Zealots, take forever to come out, and even longer replace when they fall. With warpgates, you can replace HT very quickly for Storms and new Archons (I think its a 55second cooldown for a HT gate, + the archon warp time), but if you have Khaydarin you storm then you can warp them.
Dies amazingly easily to fungal even if you spread them out.
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On September 01 2010 00:39 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 00:10 DreamSailor wrote:
Archons are incredibly powerful.
Recently I've been going Chargelot/Archon (Occasionally completely skipping HT tech all together, and using the gas for HT for Straight Archons and Upgrades)
I think at +2 weapons, Mutas die in 3 hits to Archons. And if he goes hard mutas, he won't have enough ground to fight your Zealots, and there was a thread earlier stating weapon upgrade "milestones" and I think at +3 they one shot workers, which is kinda awesome.
Archons are actually awesome vs. Zerg, because they -always- get their damage bonus,
Hydras really are probably your best option. Banelings aren't that good against Zealots (Takes like 3 to kill one) Hydras have high damage potential, but fall to a zealot charge pretty fast. Ultras while good against Zealots, take forever to come out, and even longer replace when they fall. With warpgates, you can replace HT very quickly for Storms and new Archons (I think its a 55second cooldown for a HT gate, + the archon warp time), but if you have Khaydarin you storm then you can warp them. Dies amazingly easily to fungal even if you spread them out.
I always forget infestors, I really need to start using them in my Zerg matchups. Luckily, I haven't played against many good players with infestors, and most of the ones that I do go for Neural parasite over fungal.
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On September 01 2010 00:42 DreamSailor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 00:39 EtherealDeath wrote:On September 01 2010 00:10 DreamSailor wrote:
Archons are incredibly powerful.
Recently I've been going Chargelot/Archon (Occasionally completely skipping HT tech all together, and using the gas for HT for Straight Archons and Upgrades)
I think at +2 weapons, Mutas die in 3 hits to Archons. And if he goes hard mutas, he won't have enough ground to fight your Zealots, and there was a thread earlier stating weapon upgrade "milestones" and I think at +3 they one shot workers, which is kinda awesome.
Archons are actually awesome vs. Zerg, because they -always- get their damage bonus,
Hydras really are probably your best option. Banelings aren't that good against Zealots (Takes like 3 to kill one) Hydras have high damage potential, but fall to a zealot charge pretty fast. Ultras while good against Zealots, take forever to come out, and even longer replace when they fall. With warpgates, you can replace HT very quickly for Storms and new Archons (I think its a 55second cooldown for a HT gate, + the archon warp time), but if you have Khaydarin you storm then you can warp them. Dies amazingly easily to fungal even if you spread them out. I always forget infestors, I really need to start using them in my Zerg matchups. Luckily, I haven't played against many good players with infestors, and most of the ones that I do go for Neural parasite over fungal.
Lucky you :<
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Really need a replay if you complain about a toss massing 8-10 archons. He had to have at least 3 bases for that.
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1) please post a replay.
2) you should probably get brood lords and upgrade them a couple of times.
3) compliment with cracklings/blings. (adrenal meta lings and centrifugal and melee upgrade.
4) make sure to get ovseers to kill obs.
NOTE: if you upgrade the melee damage at evo chamber, the lings, blings, and broodlings do more damage as well.
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hmm reading that ur bronze ( no offense) but archons are crap .. in higher league's people really only use them when HT has no more energy.
they are just an addition to a force because ur HT is useless elseway they shouldnt be main force..
and being affraid of feedback being used against ur infestors in a bronze ?? no way anyone is gonna use that... in platinum I've rarely even seen it being used lol -_- not that its not good .. feedback is awesome.
use the fungal growth and u should be allright
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Russian Federation81 Posts
Fungal Growth is pretty nice, since their range is so bad.
this
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On September 01 2010 00:23 broke wrote:Show nested quote + Archons are also not armored, so ultralisks have to attack 24 times to clear through them... Don't shields take full damage from everything, so ultralisks will use their armored attack damage on archons?
No, this is how it is in Brood War, but in SC2, Shields take on the properties of the units.
Archons are neither armored or light, so their shields are neither armored or light.
On September 01 2010 01:14 Juvator wrote:
hmm reading that ur bronze ( no offense) but archons are crap .. in higher league's people really only use them when HT has no more energy.
they are just an addition to a force because ur HT is useless elseway they shouldnt be main force..
and being affraid of feedback being used against ur infestors in a bronze ?? no way anyone is gonna use that... in platinum I've rarely even seen it being used lol -_- not that its not good .. feedback is awesome.
use the fungal growth and u should be allright
In all honesty, I have doubts that you have seen too many Archons. MASSING Archons is terrible, yes, but having 2 or 3 in an army to absorb shots and deal damage (NEVER underestimate the damage an Archon can do to Zerg or Bioball) is a wonderful idea and I have done very well with it.
Oh, and I am a very strong mid diamond player. It is certainly rare to see Archons used, but that doesn't mean it is a bad idea... it simply means people haven't figured them out yet.
Splash from Archons, combined with Feedback on Infestors and Psistorm for splash and Zealots for distance control (Archons can shoot over top of Zealots making very strong DPS). Don't underestimate this.
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I just wish the splash from archon attacks was a bit bigger; I'd probably use them more if that was the case.
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On August 31 2010 14:47 Twaxter wrote:
GUY
tell us league/points.
replay, specific shit.
When I see archons, its either early game and its a easy win for me, because its so gas heavy.
Hydra/Ling is excellent in counter it, late game, brood lords / lings, will work. Its not seen often, lots of toss players just make them because they don't have enough energy on their templars. IMO they are alot of ways to kill archons, it all depends on how many units you have, creep, e.t.c.
Just don't go muta against archon..
He gave us his league buddy, and for someone in copper league he doesnt't need to post a replay, his points, or describe the battle in detail. He's in freaking copper.
Listen kid, don't make any drones at the beginning of the game. Gather up 200 minerals and drop a pool right off the bat. When the pool finishes, build 6 zerglings and send them to attack/find and attack your enemies base. This will beat anyone you play against for a long time. Come back when you're in gold league and this doesn't work anymore.
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Its not a bizzare situation at all. Archons are really good against zerg. Ultralisks work pretty well because he should be zealot heavy and has legs to makeup for the archon gas cost. I try to harass a lot with mutalisks but against this you have to be super careful not to lose the to storm or an archon. Dont listen to the people saying hydralisks. Youre gonna be fighting chargelots and psi storm. You can try to hold with hydra near spines if you wanted but you NEED fungal growths and super control.
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EPT
