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United States109 Posts
Or just kill the initial pylon with your workers... 4 workers can do more damage to a pylon then what it receives from warping in (if that makes any sense). The reason the OP tells you to hide the first pylon and cannon is so that that it doesn't immediately get shut down from him sending all his workers in to kill it. Play a game vs a Very Hard or Insane AI and try to cannon rush them. Even if they don't see your pylon, they will use their map hacks and immediately send all their probes to kill it and then your boned. If you build your pylon next to his Nexus, expect that type of reaction from your opponent.
And to add in my own flavor to the thread, I've developed a very interesting twist to the cannon rush for PvP since I find that cannon rushing vs terran or zerg is a waste of time due to creep and lift-off.
My build is simply treating your forge like a gateway and instead of going 12 gate, you go 12 forge, offensive pylon, 1st cannon next to pylon, gateway while 1st cannon is warping in, then offensive cannon (the one that reveals you have cannons in his base). If 4 player map, send your first probe produced by your nexus to scout, if 2 player map send a standard probe after your pylon on 9. Do a wall-off with your forge and gateway at your ramp so if he fends off your offensive cannons with his zealots you can easily put cannons down at your entrance to take care of any counter push. If I win from the 2 cannons great, but I'm not expecting the cannons to win me the game. My cannons are just there to delay his stalkers. While he's dealing with my cannons, I tech up and proxy a stargate outside his main. Chronoboost out a voidray, and its usually GG since my cannons forced him to get a lot of zealots which delays his cybernetics and stalkers.
Since I'm just swapping the resources of my first gateway for a forge, my initial void ray comes just as fast as if I was fast teching to voidrays from the beginning.. From my experience, the only way my opponent can hold this if he decides to fast tech to stalkers and take on my cannons with stalkers instead of zealots. The only way he would be allowed to do that is if my 2 cannons were placed in a position that would not force the gg if not dealt with immediately (aka not in range of his mineral line or nexus). So if his initial building placement forced me to put my cannons in a position to only threaten his pylon/gateway instead of his nexus/probes, and if he somehow knew I wasn't going all-in with cannons, then he would be able to hold the void ray. Most protoss though freak out and build a lot of zealots and don't realize that the cannons were put there for him to do exactly that. Honestly who would think to fast tech to stalkers to deal with cannons in the first place?
I doubt anyone will read all that since this is posted on like the 8th page but I got so sick of how incredibly dumb PvP was that I just sat down and hammered this build out over like 4 hours (mostly to test if the timings would work). Its worked incredibly so far but it is highly dependent on your first pylon and cannon remaining undetected. Its come to the point where if I can get my pylon and cannon down undetected, I know from that point on its gg since my opponent is forced to do everything I want him to do. The placement of the first pylon/cannon is so important that I literally have a piece of paper with rules for where I put them depending on the placement of my opponent's first pylon/gateway and the map that is being played.
I will post a replay if anyones interested when I get back from vacation.
Everything you said is truth. You are obviously a master of the cannon rush. I would love to see your replays.
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cheeses are good to mix up your game and throw your opponent off balance... this is usually in a 3 game, 5 game series in a tourney....
random 1:1s are just a good place to practice cheesing. Its always good to have in your arsenal... even if its just to know the best way to counter it.
That said, against any good player cannon rush will not work 80% of the time. The 20 % of the time it might work is if they happen to be lazy that game and not keep an eye out(or they possibly are doing a ballsy FE without any aggressive units which ive yet to see in SC2... like straight double nexus/CC in SC1), or you are playing a series of games with the same player, and you switch it up when they are expecting normal play. (even then cannon rush as a cheese is worse than the other cheeses you can do IMO, ESP in SC2, in SC1 on some maps cannon rushing actually works since pylons are beastly... in SC2 pylons drop like flies..)
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On August 12 2010 02:03 rathe wrote:
Guide to Cannon Rushing
I play starcraft to have fun. For me, winning is fun. If you can win quickly, that’s great. If you can win quickly and make the other guy nerd rage... well, that's even better.
I love hearing people whine after I destroy them. Maybe that’s why I enjoy cheese so much. Nothing goes with cheese like whine. Cheesing isn't cheesy... it's a legitimate way to end the game early. As I see it, anyone who can be cheesed, should be cheesed. So, with that in mind, here is a little info I have compiled about cannon rushing as protoss.
After reading this, you will not only be able to perform a cannon rush, you will also be able to successfully defend one and transition out of one if it fails.
What You Will Need
A bold and adventurous spirit. A quick and discerning mind. The ability to laugh in the face of convention. And a willingness to sacrifice social validation and embrace your inner wild man.
If you possess these noble qualities, then you, too, can become a cannon cheeser.
Before we get started, my qualifications:
I have none. I am just a guy who plays starcraft. I am not good at the game. I am not bad at it either. When I play, I am a top 5 Platinum Toss. However, my rank slips because I don’t play that much. I have been cannon rushing since SC1. And I have numerous victories over diamond level opponents utilizing all kinds of cannon rushes.
If people tell you that cheese doesn't work, don’t believe it. Anyone can get got. And if people tell you that cannon rushing is all in, don’t believe it either. Cannon rushing is a crime of opportunity. The key to success is having proper information and knowing when opportunity is knocking.
Did anyone else stop reading after this?
1. If you only play sc2 to get wins and make ppl made, its just like a game-playing version of an internet troll. No respect.
2. The reason u slip is cuz your not good at the game. You probably play at a gold-silver level, but just cheese ur way up.
3. Cheesing every game would be as if every play in football was a hail mary. Pointless.
3. If you spent more time learning the game instead of writing this post, you would improve in SC2 10x.
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United States109 Posts
On August 14 2010 13:18 Trion wrote:
I liked reading it, but whats with all the Terran hate. I think that was really unnecessary for a guide to cannon rushing. Especially the last line.
If you didn't like this guide, you are going to HATE my new song:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=143999
Just remember it's all in good fun!
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Spine crawler does cost 150minerals. I see you do not play Z  loosing a drone every time you build something hurts.
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My favorite way to defend this is getting a cannon or two of my own and bringing his cannon push to a halt while teching up. It works especially nicely when the opponent tries to wall off a little pocket inside your base behind the mineral line.
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I just make 2 barracks, float the CC to the natural and counter with mass marines + some scvs to make bunkers.
I think its extremely easy to stop tho. Even making mistakes.
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Just want to point out that spine crawler cost 100 minerals + 50 from drone.
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Thanks for putting all this work into the guide.
The hate for the strategy only makes it more awesome.
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United States109 Posts
On August 14 2010 20:37 Izzachar wrote:Spine crawler does cost 150minerals. I see you do not play Z loosing a drone every time you build something hurts.
True, I don't play zerg. I will modify. Thanks!
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Jesus, so much hate. Its not even that good of a cheese guys, calm down. The write-up is in depth, awesome, and hilarious. In a way its a lot like actually cannon rushing - bound to draw hate but inevitably hilarious. Props to the OP for having a sense of humor, even when evidently, most of the community doesn't.
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I honestly hate when I get rushed like this...I remember when someone asked me about this and I had no idea what it was...he then cannon rushed me  LMAO
But now I know how to defend against it...thanks 
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Great guide man, thanks for putting so much work into this. As a gold level player, I am often overwhelmed by unconventional strategies like cannon rushing, because I lack the insight how to deal with them properly.
Cheese does not exist in my vocabulary. In my opinion every strategy that allows you to win a game is a valid and good strategy. I am usually playing more "standard", but I do respect everyone who is able to beat me with strategies that are created by thinking outside the box, so to speak. If they are good enough to beat me with their creative play, I deserve the loss. And thanks to this guide, this will not happen as often as it did in the past .
Keep those cannon rushes coming, that way I can train to counter them better.
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Quite the informative guide. Personally, I'd never cannon rush, but theres no greater satisfaction than beating someone who does. Thanks for tips on countering.
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I see alot of cannon rush in 3v3 and 4v4's that I play, I like the guide
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Hahahahaha, fun guide to read. Pretty succinct, but I take it for the fun factor x]
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This guide is actually a lot more interesting and useful than you think.
It's PARTICULARLY effective on desert oasis, as your first cannon is almost 100% protected, and it's also very unusual for your opponent to scout out the placement of your cannon if it's placed outside of the base. When your 2nd cannon goes up, the enemy can literally do nothing about it. The first cannon is unreachable for the probes, and if they attack the 2nd cannon, the first cannon's attack radius will kill any probes.
So far I've pulled this cannon rush on Desert Oasis at least 5 times with a 100% success rate against high-400/low-500 Diamond players. Not only that, but I've pulled it off versus Terran, Zerg and Protoss. It's really fun, and especially when it fails it's fun trying to transition and still pull off a win.
Definitely worth a try, if anything just to mix it up a little and have some fun. ^^
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On August 16 2010 06:23 PhilipJWitow wrote:
This guide is actually a lot more interesting and useful than you think.
It's PARTICULARLY effective on desert oasis, as your first cannon is almost 100% protected, and it's also very unusual for your opponent to scout out the placement of your cannon if it's placed outside of the base. When your 2nd cannon goes up, the enemy can literally do nothing about it. The first cannon is unreachable for the probes, and if they attack the 2nd cannon, the first cannon's attack radius will kill any probes.
So far I've pulled this cannon rush on Desert Oasis at least 5 times with a 100% success rate against high-400/low-500 Diamond players. Not only that, but I've pulled it off versus Terran, Zerg and Protoss. It's really fun, and especially when it fails it's fun trying to transition and still pull off a win.
Definitely worth a try, if anything just to mix it up a little and have some fun. ^^
PhilipJWitow,
Can u post a replay?
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On August 14 2010 17:09 mufin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2010 15:58 Sylvr wrote:A variation of the Forge in base version that should be mentioned: Build the first Pylon right against the corner of their CC/Nexus. Build the Forge against the Pylon on the opposite side from the CC/Nexus overhanging the Pylon creating a pocket against their CC/Nexus. Build the Cannon inside that pocket. Build another Pylon immediately Walling off the Cannon. The end result should look something like this: ![[image loading]](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c384/Sylvr/CannonRush1.jpg) As you can see, do to the geometry of the buildings, it does leave space for 2 workers to reach the cannon and attack. If you place the left Pylon any further out, it will leave a space directly under it, and if you place the Forge further over, it opens up the space on the other side of it as well. One way to make it tighter by 1 space and possibly to add a followup to the rush is to use a Gateway instead of the second Pylon at the cost of 50 more minerals, like so: ![[image loading]](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c384/Sylvr/CannonRush2.jpg) Still one space, but I think that's plenty manageable. Plus, you can put your own probe there to buy time for the cannon to finish. The only way to stop this is to block one of the buildings from going down (Second Pylon/Gateway, most likely) and THEN killing the Cannon with workers before it warps in. It's worth noting that just with the 3-wall pocket, you can't get more than 3 workers attacking the cannon, which means you have to react very fast in order to kill it before it can finish and kill off the 3 workers (they pretty much have to all be attacking before it reaches the halfway mark). Or just kill the initial pylon with your workers... 4 workers can do more damage to a pylon then what it receives from warping in (if that makes any sense). The reason the OP tells you to hide the first pylon and cannon is so that that it doesn't immediately get shut down from him sending all his workers in to kill it. Play a game vs a Very Hard or Insane AI and try to cannon rush them. Even if they don't see your pylon, they will use their map hacks and immediately send all their probes to kill it and then your boned. If you build your pylon next to his Nexus, expect that type of reaction from your opponent.
imma just stop you there and remind everyone that cannon rushing is the key to the outmatched ai achievements -confirmed by me and a ton of other people in another thread-
edit: oh wow i bothered reading the rest of his post................
(i think hes still in copper?)
as an aside, i did mention the drone cost in crawler, remember that photon cannon has other advantages /quote self
On August 13 2010 01:44 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
spine crawlers consume the worker, so they cost 150, also they only hit ground and cant detect, so theyd better damn pwn those cannons
but seriously, great well thought out guide, t-up
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glad to see my counter to this lines up with with the OP (being gold means you get cheesed A LOT). I always use 4 drones one cannon (when cannon is warping) was always curious if this was the most optimal method.
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EPT
