I play starcraft to have fun. For me, winning is fun. If you can win quickly, that’s great. If you can win quickly and make the other guy nerd rage... well, that's even better.
I love hearing people whine after I destroy them. Maybe that’s why I enjoy cheese so much. Nothing goes with cheese like whine. Cheesing isn't cheesy... it's a legitimate way to end the game early. As I see it, anyone who can be cheesed, should be cheesed. So, with that in mind, here is a little info I have compiled about cannon rushing as protoss.
After reading this, you will not only be able to perform a cannon rush, you will also be able to successfully defend one and transition out of one if it fails.
What You Will Need A bold and adventurous spirit. A quick and discerning mind. The ability to laugh in the face of convention. And a willingness to sacrifice social validation and embrace your inner wild man.
If you possess these noble qualities, then you, too, can become a cannon cheeser.
Before we get started, my qualifications:
I have none. I am just a guy who plays starcraft. I am not good at the game. I am not bad at it either. When I play, I am a top 5 Platinum Toss. However, my rank slips because I don’t play that much. I have been cannon rushing since SC1. And I have numerous victories over diamond level opponents utilizing all kinds of cannon rushes.
If people tell you that cheese doesn't work, don’t believe it. Anyone can get got. And if people tell you that cannon rushing is all in, don’t believe it either. Cannon rushing is a crime of opportunity. The key to success is having proper information and knowing when opportunity is knocking.
When to Cannon Rush Cannon rushing is a crime of opportunity. If you decide, a priori, to cannon rush someone, you have at best a 50/50 shot at it working. You can’t just say, “I’m going to cannon rush.” Instead, you have to scout their base and look for the opportunity. If you see it, you need to act quickly. Otherwise, you need to have a plan to transition to a normal opening.
In order to know whether or not to cannon rush someone, you need to ask a few questions.
Question #1: What race are you facing? The race you are facing makes a huge difference in your decision to rush. In order of difficulty, the races break down like this:
Zerg - Most Difficult The Zerg is the hardest race to cannon rush because of three factors: Creep, Units, and Spine Crawlers.
Zerg Problem #1: Creep When you are cannon rushing, you want to build as few cannons as possible to destroy or cripple their base. Creep makes it difficult to build cannons near the main base. So, you often have to come at them from an angle or from behind. This is often difficult to do and depends greatly on the map.
Zerg Problem #2: Units The early zerg units can kill the probe quickly. Zerglings are fast, and they can appear early in a game (especially if the zerg is going to rush you). Queens are ranged, and can also kill the probe quickly.
Zerg Problem #3: Spine Crawlers FIXED -> Spine crawlers cost the same as cannons (100 minerals + drone vs 150) but they do more damage (25 +5 against a cannon vs 20 for the cannon). So, once the zerg gets them built, they can take out your cannon line pretty handily.
Terran - Difficult Terrans are difficult to rush mainly because of the Marine. Because the Marine is ranged, it can take out the probe quickly. It comes out faster than a zealot. But, it is also weak, so it takes a long time for it to eliminate the pylon. Terrans are also difficult to rush because they can move their buildings. More on this later.
Protoss - Medium Protoss is the easiest to rush against because you know exactly what they have at any given time. They have the same tools you do, so you have a better sense of their timing and possibilities. The initial unit, the zealot, is slow and can’t catch the probe. Their buildings are immobile and can't move. They have no ranged units early. Because of this, your best chance of winning with a cannon rush is against another toss. But it’s still not a given.
Question #2: What map are you playing? Once you’ve looked at the race matchups, you have to look at the map. The big question here is scouting. On a 1v1 map, there is no scouting necessary. You know where the guy is going to be, so you can just haul ass over there and see what's up.
On larger maps, however, you have to find them. This rush works better the earlier you get it started. So, if it takes you a long time to find the opponent’s base, it might be too late to rush them. The longer you wait, the further along the opponent will be in development. That means that by the time you get there, your window of opportunity might be gone.
In addition to map size, there are also map specific features that you need to consider. Some maps are easier to cannon rush. Other maps allow for unique cannon rushes. For instance, on desert oasis, you don’t need to build the pylon inside the enemy base to cannon rush. So, it’s a lot easier to try it than on some other maps. These are all things to consider when evaluating the map.
Question #3: What are THEY doing? The biggest factor that determines if you rush or not is what you do or do not see when you enter their base. No pylons? No Rax? Early pool? They might be rushing you. Did they see your probe and follow it? No more stealth option. Are they building a forge? They might be cannon rushing YOU.
With those things in mind, let’s look at the two main opportunities for cannon rushing.
The Opportunities In general, there are two opportunities to cannon rush:
One, you slip into the base unnoticed. You are in stealth mode. They don’t know the probe is there. You build cannons, they don't find out about it till it's too late.
Two, they see you, but they are a long ways away from having units (zealots, marines, lings). You are in rush mode. You try to finish your cannons and they try to stop you with workers.
So, with these opportunities in mind, enter the world of the cannon rush.
Step 1: Send an Early Scout How early? I usually go after building the pylon on 9. It looks normal, and it minimizes impact on my economy. If you get scouted and people don’t see the pylon, it immediately raises suspicion.
On the other hand, some toss wait till 14 to make a gateway, so if they see the early pylon, you can often chase their probe out before you put down the forge, and they will be none the wiser.
Sometimes on 1v1 maps, I send earlier probes. But, usually, 9 is early enough.
Step 2: Build the Forge When you know where the enemy is, start building your forge at your main.
Step 3: The Enemy Base You should arrive at the enemy base with your forge under construction.
Now, you have to look for the opportunity. Once you get good, you will just have a feel for it. The main thing to note is if you think they saw you, or if you got in by surprise.
Discovered Entering Base If you are discovered entering the base, you have to make a choice. Your forge should still be building back home, so you need to decide if you want to rush or not. If you let the forge complete, you are committed. Even if you don’t build a pylon and cannons, you will be behind in teching, so you need to decide quickly.
Against Terran and Toss, it is possible to rush even if they see you doing it. You do NOT have to hide in order to successfully cannon rush someone. But, you do need to be decisive.
When I am deciding to do this, I usually look at how far along they are on their build. If the toss does not have a gateway complete, I usually continue. Same thing for the Terran... if the barracks is just underway, I will usually go ahead. Zerg I usually won’t rush.
If the gateways or rax are too far along, or I don’t feel like the time is right, then I scout like normal, possibly cancel the forge, and transition into something else. You lose a bit of economy, but it is recoverable. You won’t be using any CB during this part, so you can just CB probes if you decide to bail.
If I see no gateways, no pylons, no rax, or an early pool, I think cheese. I transition by letting the forge complete, building two cannons next to my nexus, and cranking probes. This lets you shut down all early rushes, from 2 gate to reaper to 6-pool, and it lets you emerge with a very solid probe count. More on this later.
Step 3: Build the Pylon If you are not detected or followed, you are still in stealth mode. Congrats, this is prime time for cannon rushing.
If you have been detected, and decide to rush anyway, then it's time to build that pylon in his face! Position it to cause maximum psychological damage and distraction.
The cannon rush starts when you plant the first pylon.
Start the pylon BEFORE the forge finishes, when the forge is 1/2 to 3/4 done. You want them to finish at the same time. If the forge is completed at home, and you haven't placed the pylon yet, you are running late. The longer you wait, the less likely your rush will succeed.
Placement is crucial. I usually don’t target Zerg, but when I do, I target the mineral line. For Toss and Terran, I usually target the CC or Nexus.
I try to place the pylon OUT OF SIGHT and in a position that makes it as hard as possible for his ground troops (zealot or marine) to get to once it is discovered. You want them to have to run as far as possible and pass through the field of fire of your defense cannon in order to get to the pylon. You do NOT want them to be able to snipe the pylon without taking shots from the first cannon.
Step 4: First Cannon If you are still undetected, put the first cannon right next to the pylon. You will need this cannon to hold off the initial defense. It is not critical that this cannon be able to hit the target. It just needs to protect the pylon. If you are lucky, you will remain undetected as the cannon gets 3/4 complete.
Don’t build too many of these.
The main goal is to build as few cannons as possible. If this cannon completes, you are WAY WAY closer to successfully completing the rush, as a single early cannon can just wreck just about anything that is thrown at it.
If you are building in his face, then position the cannon to cover approaching defensive forces AND hit the CC or nexus. You need to start doing damage asap.
Step 5: Finishing Cannons When that first cannon is 3/4 done, build two more cannons between the pylon and the nexus or CC. These are the cannons that will do the damage. They should be the first cannons your opponent sees, and they should be covered by the field of fire of the first cannon. You should have 300 minerals saved at this point for this purpoase. If it’s zerg, aim to hit the gas and mineral line.
Usually what happens is that the enemy sees the cannons building and sends some probes to hit them. As they approach, the probes start taking fire from the first cannon. At this point, it’s probably GG. But there are ways to respond, as noted below.
Against terran or zerg, you need to place the finishing cannons so that the marine or queen can’t hit them without taking fire from the first cannon. How to do this depends on the map and how the enemy builds. But carefully look at the field of fire for the cannon before placing it. It can mean the difference between success and failure.
Remember, these are the critical cannons. If they complete, the rush most likely succeeds. But normally it won’t be that simple. They will usually struggle and fight before they rage quit.
Responses There are many responses to the cannon rush. Most of them are wrong. If you know what the responses are, you can deal with them and make it more difficult for your opponent to defend. Before you get started with the responses of the opponent, however, there are two things you need to know how to do.
Thing #1 - Probe Micro When they attack your probe, run away. I usually run in a circle around the pylon or cannons that are building. There is no way that they can kill your probe unless your micro fails or they get a marine. Probes are too fast and their shields regenerate. So, as soon as they start to attack you, run the probe in a circle.
Do NOT run home just because they found you. You can do the rush even if they see you. Seeing it isn’t stopping it. Just don’t let your probe take unnecessary shots. Just queue up a big circle and let the probe run on its own while you do production back in your main.
Thing #2 - CANCEL Do NOT let them destroy any of your pylons or cannons. Cancel your pylons and cannons before they die. If you do this, it only costs you 25% of the building cost, which is either 25 minerals for the pylon or 37.50 for the cannon.
You must learn to cancel buildings quickly before they are destroyed in order to maximize your chances of success, waste as much of their time as possible and minimize the damage of a failed rush.
Enemy Response Fail #1 - Pylon is Building - Send One Worker to Kill Probe Some people try to solve the problem by sending only one worker to kill or follow your probe. One worker cannot stop anything. Probes are fast. If they send one worker to kill your probe, just queue it up to run a big circle in their base, and build the pylons and cannons as the other worker chases you.
Enemy Response Fail #2 - Pylon is Building - Send One Worker to Kill Pylon If they send one worker to kill the pylon, laugh at it. It won’t do enough damage in time. They can’t stop you unless they commit more resources to the task.
While their probe is attacking the pylon, use your probe to attack their probe. If they don’t pay attention, you will kill it. If they do, they might try to fight you. In that case, either kill them (if you are ahead on damage) or run around in a circle.
Enemy Response Fail #3 - Pylon is Building - Send All Workers to Kill Pylon Some people overreact. They send ALL workers. Workers collect minerals at a rate of about 0.8 minerals per second. So, if they have sent 10 workers, that’s 8 minerals per second. If you can waste their time for 3 seconds, you pretty much break even when you cancel the pylon.
If they send all the workers to kill the pylon, start building another pylon. Just watch the first pylon and cancel it before it dies. Usually, I will build this second pylon far away to make sure their probes have to travel and waste maximum time.
If they are killing your pylons, you may have to bail on the strategy eventually. But you can really damage their economy by forcing them to stop mining. More importantly, you damage their mind set and their rhythm. Also note that YOU won’t have to stop mining while this happens, so you can use this time to start building probes and catch up.
Enemy Response Fail #4 - Pylon is Building - Send All Workers to Kill Probe If they send all of the probes after your probe, just laugh and run their probes around (or even out of) their base. As Borat said, "They will never get this!" There is no greater comedy than watching a comet tail form behind your probe as it trails angry workers around the enemy base.
Enemy Response Fail #5 - Pylon Completes - Send All Workers to Kill Pylon This is my favorite mistake. When the pylon completes, immediately start building cannons. If they send a ton of probes to kill the pylon, good. The main goal is to get your cannons to complete.
Most people think that if they can take out the pylon, the cannons will power down. This is true. But, once the cannons are completed, it is really easy for me to build a bunch of pylons and get the cannons to power up again.
Anyone who has seen the Korean 4 warp gate knows that you can’t stop ALL the pylons from completing. One of them will finish. And when it does, the cannons will power up again. I have won many games like this.
The moral here is focus on what kills you... a pylon can’t shoot you, but a cannon can. It’s easy to build pylons: they are cheap and they complete quickly. Cannons are more expensive and take more time. Without the cannons there is no rush. So don’t let the cannons complete.
Defending the Rush - Early Detect So what do you do if someone rushes you? The best way to defend the rush is to know that it is coming. If you find a probe hanging out, keep tabs on it. If it starts to build pylons, use the rush defense outlined below.
Defending the Rush - What to Do If someone is cannon rushing you, take 4 workers and kill whatever they are building. If the pylon is already up, leave it up. Just kill any new things that get built. Don’t chase the probe. You won’t catch it. Just continue to tech and force the rusher to cancel everything.
At 4 workers, you are only losing 3.2 minerals per second, so every time he cancels, it costs 25. You have 8 seconds per pylon before you go negative, and you can usually stop it faster than that.
*Added for Clarification* If he builds 2 cannons at once, send two groups of 4 workers, one to each cannon. If he builds 3 cannons at once, and you don't have enough workers, then queue up the first set of workers to hit the 3rd cannon. With all the workers, queue them up to return to mining when they are done so you don't waste time.
He should not be able to build more than 3 cannons at once because the rush happens so early. When I do this rush, it usually goes down before 4 minutes. You will either be firing on their nexus at 3 minutes and something, or you will be canceling and transitioning into something else. The later they try the rush, the better off you will be. Regardless, just keep killing anything he tries to warp in.
Eventually, he will either run out of money or you will have the tech to stop the rush outright (ie, marines, zerglings, zealots). The main thing is DON’T get hypnotized by the probe or the pylon. Just take 4 workers to kill whatever is building.
Defending the Rush - Cannons Up If the cannons are up and they are hitting your base, that’s very close to a GG. But there are some things you can do.
Protoss For protoss, it pretty much IS gg. Your only hope is to rush whatever zealots and forces you have to his base, and then hope you can base trade faster. But usually you won’t be able to because he will have cannons there by the time you arrive, and your only recourse will be to nerd rage and call him a noob.
If you have the cash, you can try to expand. But that's usually just delaying the inevitable.
Zerg Zerg can fight back by getting a spine crawler up. Although you will take a ton of damage, spine crawlers have great range, and they can eventually push the cannons back. Because of creep, cannons can’t really get close to the main hatch anyway, so spine crawlers can help fend it off.
You can also try to use the queen to snipe the pylon if the toss has mis-positioned it. But, that's unlikely. Because of the creep, I rarely rush zerg with cannons unless there is a map like desert oasis that is prone to outside pylon rushes.
Terran Terran has the best response options for anti-cannon rushing. The first thing you can do is move your base. Take ALL of your scvs and move them to your natural, then fly your command center over there. You can begin production again almost immediately without losing a thing. And since your barracks are already building, you can start cranking rines to go smash his base with.
Because of the placement of ramps, its difficult for a cannon rusher to sneak in between you and your natural. They usually have to go to the far side of your base where they can hide. So this line of retreat is usually open.
If the natural is not open, you can fly the CC to another expansion and just move the workers there. You can even move the CC to the OTHER side of the minerals sometimes, depending on the map and the angle of the rush. The main idea is that you GTFO when the rush starts and move to a new base.
If you can’t move and the cannon placement is bad, you can sometimes get the marine to snipe the pylon without the cannon hitting him. Do that if you can, then reinforce the marine. If you can snipe the probe, do that too. Terrans have the best shot at eliminating the probe because marines are ranged, so take advantage of it. But don’t rely on it. Good cannon placement usually makes this option mute.
Step 6: Responding to Rush Defense If someone defends your rush, then as a good rusher, you need to be able to respond. These are things you can do if you see them defending.
Build Few Cannons The most important thing that you need to understand is you want to build as FEW cannons as possible. I usually go for 3. The more cannons you build, the farther behind you will be if and when the strat fails.
If you make him run away, you are not necessarily ahead. He might have more minerals banked and a higher worker count. This is your chance to pull back to even. It's going to take him some time to get productive again. So, use that time to get your economy up. In particular, I like to expand into their base as soon as they run.
Transition into Gateways If the person runs, they usually can’t run far. By this time you are behind on probe count and tech, but the disruption your harass caused probably evened that out. What you need to do now is get units. You should have a nexus full of chronoboost. So, build gateways and CB some zealots.
I usually build the gateways by the cannons, and then rush down and smash the natural. If they aren’t at the natural, I scout for them. But I usually keep the gateways with the cannons. A lot of times there are left behind buildings in their main. Just destroy those as you start to churn out some zealots.
Expand to their Base Once I have enough minerals, I take their base as my expansion. You already have static defenses up in the form of the cannons and you already have gateways, so the expansion becomes my main. This is how you get back in the game economically.
It’s effective. Plus, it’s salt in the wound: All your base are belong to us. Literally.
This is also great because people who get rushed usually target your original main. Because of that, I usually just cannon it up a little and treat it as an expansion. I love the surprise when they march into it, fight through the cannons, and realize that there was nothing there.
Step 7: Nerd Rage If you have followed along diligently, you have learned the ways of the cannon rush and successfully rushed someone. Prepare to receive your reward!
Nerd rage is a confection sweeter than honey, an ambrosia of the gods. Savor it. There are many ways to enjoy it. Be magnanimous in victory. Offer tips. Comfort him. Talk shit. The options are endless. Stockpile witty sayings and pithy remarks that you can use to rejoinder the vitriol that will be heaped upon you.
Some typical quips:
Loser: “You $@#$%#@$ noob! I will kill you! You SUCK!!!!!” Loser: “I bet you are in the bronze leage you !@$!$##! loser” Loser: “You @%$#!$ cheeser, that !@#$ will NEVER work again!”
Feel free to respond in the way that amuses you most.
There may come a point when you start to feel bad about cheesing. Don’t. Terrans don’t feel bad about playing their POS overpowered race. So you shouldn’t feel bad about cheesing. It takes a lot more skill to do a cannon rush than it does to do 3rax 1A GG.
And yes, anyone who says cheesing doesn’t take skill obviously isn’t very good at it.
Anyone can cheese a noob. But to cheese platinum and diamond level players, you need a bit of skill. A sliver of luck. And a touch of grace. If you learn to recognize your opportunities, you will have a viable opening that can end games quickly and crush your opponent psychologically. And who doesn’t want to do that?
Think About It Stealth aside, the reason this rush works is because of two factors. The first is build timing. I can build a pylon and a cannon faster than you can complete a gateway and boost out a zealot. Even if the zealot gets out, he can’t kill the cannon or the pylon alone. It takes a long time. You will have to use workers.
The marine is in the same boat. But, because he is ranged, he is more difficult to handle. But only a little. He can take the probe out. Still, he can’t kill a pylon or a cannon very fast, and it becomes a race. Unfortunately for the defender, it is a race in which I know all the correct decisions, and you probably don’t.
Therefore, you will be analyzing while I am still in book. This gives me an advantage. The chances of you calculating the right response and not making a mistake are slim. On the other hand, I know exactly what to do based on your decisions. So, I can react instantly.
The second reason it works is pressure. Building stuff in someone's base puts them on tilt. If they make a mistake, they lose. If they don’t, I simply cancel my stuff and walk away. Total investment is usually less than 100 minerals on my part for a failed rusher.
I will be behind in probe count, and slightly behind on tech. But not that much. I have a forge and a nexus full of CB, and I can often make that ground back up. On the flip side, the disruption, both economically and psychologically, that it inflicts on my opponent is often be worth it.
There are two ways to win in chess... playing the board, and playing the opponent. This opening is designed for people who like to play the opponent.
Anti-Cheese One of the positive side effects of this line of thinking is that if someone tries to cheese you before you cheese them, you have a great chance of winning. You will know that the enemy is cheesing when you enter their base. At some point, you will realize they have NOTHING. At that monent, your ears should perk up.
Fortunately, having an early forge lets you defend almost all of the early rushes you will face.
Zerg Ling Rush Build two cannons by your nexus. You will crush 6 pool or any other zergling rush. Just make sure to use the cannon nexus and forge to block off 3 sides of the main pylon. Or, build another pylon at the base. If they can’t get a surround on the pylon, they are toast. Use probes to attack when they enter the line. I often repel this attack without losing a single probe.
Note: I used this to defend against Zerg rushes in SC1 on Bloodbath. If you haven’t played it, it is a map with a VERY short rush distance. This always worked. Just build a tight base. Don't spread your structures out.
Terran Proxy Rax Terran proxy rax rush loses to 2 cannons by the nexus or wall off on the choke point. Just cannon up at your base the cannon rush them at theirs and when they run, take it as an expansion.
Terran Early Reaper If you see the early reaper, just build two cannons - one in your mineral line, one on top of the nexus opposite it. This keeps the reaper from hitting probes or sniping your nexus or buildings.
Positioning is key. The reaper will try to find an area not covered by cannon field of fire, so place carefully. Never build your cannons at the choke point, because the reaper will laugh at you.
Protoss Proxy Rush You win this match up by building 2 defensive cannons at your home base and an extra pylon, then continuing with the cannon rush at his base. Alternate building cannons at home and away, as the longer it takes, the more zealots he’ll have.
When you enter his base and see NOTHING (no pylon, no gate, no buildings), you know the proxy rush is on. Cannon up at your main, then beat him with cannons at his.
Protoss Cannon Rush This is all about speed and knowledge. If you see the forge in their base, scout your own base immediately. If he has not built any cannons yet in your base, build a defensive cannon. Don’t build this one near your nexus... build far away it to shut off his angle of approach.
Most cannon rushers have not taken the time to study the opening, so you can beat them the same way you beat someone with an in-your-face rush... with superior knowledge.
If the cannons are already warping in, hope to god that he doesn’t have a defensive cannon already up. Then, take 4 probes and kill whatever is building. Use 4 probes for EACH thing he builds... so if he builds 2 cannons, use 8 probes total. If you run out of probes, queue the groups up to hit the incoming cannons. While you are doing that, you will have to decide if you can still cannon rush him, or if you need to cancel and start teching.
All In Build There are variations of the cannon rush that you can use and try. One of them that is funny is the enemy base forge. To do this, you run to the enemy base with your first or second probe. You build a pylon right in their face. Then, you build a forge right there next to it in their base. Once it finishes, you buy cannons.
It sounds stupid, but unless they react correctly, they will lose. They will NOT have a gateway or rax started, and they might not even have a pylon or supply depot. Anyone who tries to build a defense to this loses. There is no way they can get any cannons, zealots or marines to help them in time.They need to send 4 workers to kill everything you build, not target the pylon, not target the probe.
I don’t like this build because if it fails, you die. Not only do you lose they pylon, you lose the forge too. There is no way to recover if this doesn’t succeed. On the other hand, it's extremely exciting to attempt, and when it works, NOTHING generates more nerd rage. The change from curiosity to annoyance to panic is priceless. I recommend trying it for cheese connoisseurs.
And if you can do this to a terran, then so much the better. You will be doing everyone a public service.
On August 12 2010 02:12 Backpack wrote: Well, i guess if you're gonna cheese, you better do it right.
I guess so. Most detailed explanation I have ever seen in my life on something that seemed so simple. This literally accounts for everything that is possible.
Hahaha this is great really well thought out and everything, i can see my odd of being cannon rushed just went up quite a bit when i ladder later, i'm a mid level platt toss, your perfect target according to this
I got cannon rushed on LT and the guy didn't scout my base, first probe he sent was right to my base to build a pylon and everything. Does anyone know where I can send the replay to blizzard to see if he was map hacking. I already used the report function in game. Is that enough?
If you build at their ramp/choke, their scout will see it and they'll kill you with workers or zealot/marine/ling.
If you build inside their base to the side, even if they don't see it, all they have to do is position any ranged unit or static defense at that side of their base to prevent your canons from getting any closer. Then they can just rampage your base.
Oh mah gawd this was a ridiculously long guide for something so simple. Say what you say, cannon rushing is like stealing candy from a baby, easy and the only thing the baby'll do is whine. For more than valid reasons. Personally the fact that you get extreme satisfaction from the dissatisfaction of others is sad, and to me, disgusting. But you are who you are, and I sure as hell hope I don't run into you in a 1v1 so I'm not forced to appease your satisfaction.
Cannon rushes won't work in plat or diamond. It's alright to have fun every now and again in custom or lower ladder, but if you are relying on it as a strategy then you will never evolve as a player.
You can argue about the validity of cheese all you want but whenever you cheese and lose you should be thinking about how to move away from these tactics, and not cheese harder. If you actually put that much thought into this build you should have been able to play just as well with a solid strategy that will take you further in the long run.
I don't play Protoss but this is a great guide. I used to get canon rushed a lot but I havnt seen it once since I hit diamond. Its like a right of passage.
On August 12 2010 02:35 Keap wrote: Cannon rushes won't work in plat or diamond. It's alright to have fun every now and again in custom or lower ladder, but if you are relying on it as a strategy then you will never evolve as a player.
You can argue about the validity of cheese all you want but whenever you cheese and lose you should be thinking about how to move away from these tactics, and not cheese harder. If you actually put that much thought into this build you should have been able to play just as well with a solid strategy that will take you further in the long run.
It'll probably work on half the plats and a handful of diamonds (yea numbers pulled out of my arse, just assuming). But other than that, agreed with everything you said. Cheesing is useful to use to learn how to counter it, not how to actually do it.
On another tip to ninja cannoning: placing a pylon below cliffs of their main is something else to watch out for. People usually scout in their base, but rarely to the edge so they miss that pylon on low ground. Then build cannon on high or low, and proceed from there. Of course, this is assuming Blizz didn't patch pylons going through hi-ground.
Haha sort of like reading a guide on how to wipe your a....
But anyway props on the guide. If anything it was very detailed. I'm sure a lot of newer players learned from it. One "trick" that you might want to add that got me really good was after I stopped his cheese (in this case it was proxy gateways) he said "gg" but then he never left the game. Thinking he was going to leave the game I sort of slacked off in macro and it gave him just enough time to cannon up and make it a long drawn out game which I eventually lost. I'm sure this would make people rage even harder which is apparently your cup of tea. Personally I had to admire his cunning because he fooled me good.
Never thought the day would come when I would read a cannon rush strategy guide. Great writeup nonetheless. Very detailed. I might actually cannon rush in some costom games right naow....
Stopping a cannon rush doesn't put most people on edge psychologically it elates them they are in a powerful position to end the game easily and they know you aren't in a strong position. People are only shaken by cheese when it works when it fails they are out for blood and in a position to get it.
As Terran I just build a bunker concurrent to the warp-in of the threatening cannon (not the defending cannon) and set an SCV to repair it. I like letting the cannons finish because I know it costs my opponent resources, and I can take them out easily out once I have marauders. I lose if I place the bunker poorly. It has to have range to also be about max range out from the edge of my base to make sure a probe/cannon can't squeeze by in a shortcut. I Toss tries to start up a new cannon farm somewhere else, I have plenty of units in time.
Toss tends to lose 650+ minerals while I lose the repair cost on the bunker.
The only bummer is that toss has so much time in my base to see what I'm doing, but I have only seen one player so far open with a cannon rush and actually play competently in the mid-game so i don't worry much.
Also beating a cannon rush on DO is just about the best feeling in the world. Especially if you troll the person who cannon rush'd you after you win. "Nice cannon rush bro"
i'm about to read it, but i love the quote, "anyone who can be cheesed, should be cheesed." maybe i'll actually consider cannon rushing for once after all this.
Great guide, people hating cause its cheese is kinda funny considering you go into great detail about how to defend against it as well(which is what I think I will get most use out of)
Terrans don’t feel bad about playing their POS overpowered race. So you shouldn’t feel bad about cheesing. It takes a lot more skill to do a cannon rush than it does to do 3rax 1A GG.
im impressed. that was quite the comprehensive guide, and love the writing tone. while i admire your thought in the cannon rush, im afraid you are one of the few who do it with any intelligent thought at all.
On August 12 2010 03:08 Mantikor wrote: lol, If being "top5 platinum when i play" helps you sleep at night, and you cant get there any other way... By all means kid, cannon rush away.
The Justifications part of this post is beyond hilarious
I was aiming for hilarious, but if I have surpassed even that lofty goal, I am humbled.
Why not a thread about cannon rushing? Don't you ever feel like the game isn't fun anymore when you just play the same 2-3 builds over and over and over again. Sometimes its really fun to cheese especially with your friends.
I have found that cannon rushes work approximately 5x as often if you start with a pylon below a cliff, build a cannon there and then move up to the top of the cliff once that cannon is about complete and build your next cannon up top. This works especially well in the 4v4 map from the beta where there is a big dip in the middle of all 4 bases.
How do you cannon rush a terran? I tried on my friend for fun and he just lifted off, made a new base and rushed my base(which had like 2 cannons max) and killed me easily.
Do we REALLY need a thread about cannon rushing? It's easily the weakest avenue for cheese possible, and you're not really playing the game. Even proxy reapers is more effective / requires more skill.
Losing to a cannon rush is a humiliating feeling. I now always spread my early overlords over my base against Protoss (instead of scouting with the first one for example) to try and see it coming. I have only beaten cannon rushes by expanding to a remote location and then turtling up in my main to drag it out for as long as possible. Hopefully this guide will help with things. I must say I didn't know that spine crawlers outranged cannons! (I'm quite new to the game).
Even though I hate to lose against cannon rushes I have to say this guide is excellently written. And some of the haters who assumed he tries this every game should read the guide before they post...
Why the hell is everyone hating on this guy. He made a very indepth guide on cannon rushing. You are saying we can only make guides for x style of play? Pros 4 pooled quite often and won many games in bw. How can you punish someone for getting a heavy economy and making no defence at the start of a game. Rush him, don't let him get a fast expand and what not.
This build feels pretty good to me, because I do feel that it has a much better transition than that all-in cannon rush.
Tell me what's the difference in a player doing a 3 hatch before pool compared to a cannon rush, they are both what you can call all-in, while this you can actually transition out of. Stop the hate.
On August 12 2010 03:34 barrykp wrote: Losing to a cannon rush is a humiliating feeling. I now always spread my early overlords over my base against Protoss (instead of scouting with the first one for example) to try and see it coming. I have only beaten cannon rushes by expanding to a remote location and then turtling up in my main to drag it out for as long as possible. Hopefully this guide will help with things. I must say I didn't know that spine crawlers outranged cannons! (I'm quite new to the game).
Even though I hate to lose against cannon rushes I have to say this guide is excellently written. And some of the haters who assumed he tries this every game should read the guide before they post...
Actually, I am wrong about the range. I just checked, and spine crawlers appear to have the same range (7) and sight (11) as cannons. However, I have had my cannon lines cleaned up by spine crawlers on several occassions, which is why I made the note in my notebook that crawlers > cannons. I remember distinctly having my cannons being hit by the crawler without being able to fire back. I will have to go test this.
EDIT: I fixed the original guide. Spine crawlers do not out range cannons, but they do cost less (100 vs 150) and hit harder (30 vs 20). They have 300hp vs 150 shield + 150 hp for the cannon. But the cannon does 20 damage, and the spine crawler does 25 +5 to armored. So, the spine crawler wins the fight.
Nice 4th post. I don't know if I'll be using this anytime soon, but it was a nice read and well thought out. I really don't understand why people get so mad. As you state, it pretty much is a 50/50 chance of succeeding at most, and it isn't unbeatable. People who complain of cheese are funny.
1) Kill the probe. 2) Block your ramp. 3) Avoid the cannons until you have a force strong enough to take them out without losses. 4) Laugh about the hundreds of minerals your opponent wasted.
More simply, don't let a probe run around inside your base unmolested. Scout your own base. Any strategy that requires your opponent to not pay attention to what comes up his ramp, or what goes on in his base outside of his vision is a strategy that only works if the player is bad or lazy.
The problem is, if you commit to a forge first, and try to cannon rush, you're neglecting an early offensive force, and that can be punished. Even if you don't manage to build any cannons you're already behind. If you build cannons and then lose your probe, you're far behind.
2 pylons and a cannon blocking the bottom of the ramp is a reasonable tactic. Investment is low, and it can work even if it's scouted. It doesn't win the game for you, but prevents an opponent from expanding or scouting until they have a reasonable sized military. Cannon rush in base, only works if your opponent is not paying attention. If your probe dies you pretty much lose the game.
If you're terran and you get cannon rushed, simply build bunkers just in range of the cannons, get marines out quickly, and repair the bunkers while your marines kill the cannons. I had someone do this earlier today to me, he even threw in a gateway so he could get zealots. 2 rax's on 12 and bunkers held it off easily. just don't forget to keep making SCVs after your initial cut.
I've gotten hit with this a few times and I'm in Platinum. When I get caught with my pants down with the canon rush (or bunker>reaper rush), I usually smile and put GG or Nice!
This tactic is legitimate people! It's part of the game, and if you deny yourself this tactic in your own arsenal then you are doing yourself a disservice. Why would you choose NOT to do something that is available to you? Makes no sense. You are NOT a better player just because you choose NOT to utilize a tactic that is readily available for EVERYONE. I think it's more noob- ish to get caught with one of these tactics than to be the one employing it IMHO.
A win's a win, even if you disconnect.
A fundamental of being a solid player is having all your bases covered, and if you are mindful of this, it wouldnt' be a probem. The problem arises when you begin to think there is a certain 'way' to play this game. You can play it howerver you want, and you can't really hold it against someone if they play in a manner that beats you.
"There are two ways to win in chess... playing the board, and playing the opponent. This opening is designed for people who like to play the opponent. "
this is CLEARLY playing the board, playing your opponent would be building to counter his build, or faking a build to do something else, your doing a pretty much set strategy, regardless of what your opponent does, this is not a reactionary/psychological build
On August 12 2010 05:01 CowFu wrote: "There are two ways to win in chess... playing the board, and playing the opponent. This opening is designed for people who like to play the opponent. "
this is CLEARLY playing the board, playing your opponent would be building to counter his build, or faking a build to do something else, your doing a pretty much set strategy, regardless of what your opponent does, this is not a reactionary/psychological build
I couldn't really make sense of your reply. It seems like you have some of the concepts mixed up. Also, I'm also not sure you actually read the guide (with comprehension).
"playing your opponent would be building to counter his build" This is exactly FALSE. If you counter what your opponent does, you are reacting what to happens on the battlefield. That is the very definition of playing the board.
"faking a build to do something else" Now faking someone out is playing the opponent, clearly.
"your doing a pretty much set strategy, regardless of what your opponent does" False. This is why I wonder if you read the guide. If you did, I think you missed the giant section in BOLD that says, "Question #3: What are THEY doing?" And it's "you're".
"this is not a reactionary/psychological build" Yes, it is. Doubly so. First off, you need to react to what the opponent shows you. See above. Next, you force the opponent to react to what you are doing. See the rest of the guide. The entire game is based on reaction and forcing reactions.
Is it psychological? Depends on the opponent, I guess. It definitely throws them out of their routine and messes up their smooth build. It often makes them emotional. They either get mad and want to try to CRUSH you, instead of playing calmly. Or, they take you lightly and underestimate the amount of preparation you put into the opening.
When someone is playing emotionally or not thinking clearly, they are more prone to mistakes. So if that happens, then yes, it is psychological. If not, then I guess it isn't.
Still, it makes for a more visceral experience. Isn't it sooooo satisfying to crush a cheeser? And soooo nerdrageous to lose to one?
Overall, I think it makes the game more fun. So you can look at this guide as my little way of adding to the starcraft experience.
On August 12 2010 05:08 Lysdexia wrote: Wow this is really comprehensive. I am a mid diamond player and using this guide should make my future PvP games much more bearable
I think cannon rushes are easy to stop if you know the theory. The challenge is evolving the technique to allow it to continue to work. The fun is pulling it off when the opportunity arises.
Yay! Cheese my way into a league I don't belong in, then get steamrolled every game because I don't have a clue how to play after the opener, great guide....
I do love how you try to pass off cannon rushing as some noble venture for strong-spirited people against the LONELY NERDY RAGERS who want to put you down.
Did it not occur to you that other people want to have fun too? OF COURSE NOT YOU JUST WANT TO GRATIFY YOURSELF. CHEESE IS CHEESY.... uh huh going a pretty long way for this.. :/ I suppose it says something about yourself if you enjoy to pissing other people off though, something not particularly good.
On a gameplay related note relying on your opponent to not see the stealth probe or fast forge is not a very good strategy imo
I really really don't get how you can actually like cannon-rushing people. It just blows my mind that you prefer 5 min-no-micro-or-macro-or-strategy-whatsoever games to actual starcraft...
but still i've got to thank you for the countering-part. I more or less did what you wrote instinictively but it was nice to read it that way. And this guide also helped my attention for the topic a lot, because i'm pretty sure there will be a bunch of people who read this and start now cannon-rushing "the legitimate way" - and i'll be happy to take their wins.
Thanks for this guide (I'll probably save it to my computer for future reference). While I rarely cannon rush, this guide is essential to defending cannon rushes, and even gave me some tips about it i had no idea about.
While I rarely actually cannon rush, sometimes i build a forge,hope they see it, then pylon in their base in their face and cancel it before it finishes/gets destroyed. If they ignore it completely, i can build cannons and crush them. If not, I can just switch back to macro, having invested very little and still crush them with zealots and stalkers and sentries upgraded +1/+1 because i already had the forge. Plus, it can take their mind off the game a bit, make them spend time watching for more cheese or make them do something stupid.
But since I got to diamond i generally stopped doing that.
But overall, thanks for the guide, it's really useful, especially to show how to stop cannon rushes.
There may come a point when you start to feel bad about cheesing. Don’t. Terrans don’t feel bad about playing their POS overpowered race. So you shouldn’t feel bad about cheesing. It takes a lot more skill to do a cannon rush than it does to do 3rax 1A GG.
There may come a point when you start to feel bad about cheesing. Don’t. Terrans don’t feel bad about playing their POS overpowered race. So you shouldn’t feel bad about cheesing. It takes a lot more skill to do a cannon rush than it does to do 3rax 1A GG.
Amend that to 3rax 1A T lol.
The defense section is useful, although I win like 75% of cannon rush games already.
OK guys i wrote a guide to cannun rush. First you get a forge ok b/c that lets you make the cannons. Make sure you get it super duper fast or else he might have carriers. You need to build a pylno for ur cannuns ok so make sure you do in secret, tell him "NR 20min promise ok" ok.
If he is the bugs then you need to make more cannuns to surond him and get carriers after to kill him. The poop, lol poop, on the ground won't let you build a cannon so try carriers.
Be carful of tnks b/c they ca=n kill a cannun if he does cheap stuff like siege mode out of range. If he fites like a man cannons will kill the tank but he is a pussy cheeser.
There may come a point when you start to feel bad about cheesing. Don’t. Terrans don’t feel bad about playing their POS overpowered race. So you shouldn’t feel bad about cheesing. It takes a lot more skill to do a cannon rush than it does to do 3rax 1A GG.
I support. Go cannon rush Terrans every game, leave us poor Zergs alone ;;
Why so much hate on this guide? If this is such a noob tactic and a minor annoyance at worst, DEFEND it, like you would defend any attack at your main (Viking Drop, DT's, Warp Prism, etc.).
Just because your opponent doesn't play by how you think an 'ideal' game should flow, doesn't mean it's not 'fair' or it's 'noobish'.
If I could shoot 3 pointers from mid court all day, believe you me, I would, and I wouldn't give a sh!t if anyone thought it was fair or not, becuase the rules of the game allow me to do this. He's still playing by the rules people.
You're telling me you're good enough to fend off an MMM ball but can't defend against a Probe putting some buildings at your main?
I'm a fan of cannon rushing too but imo this is the wrong way to do it. I prefer to build the forge in their base. They have to let it get up and then its just about pylon and cannon positioning. Plus if you are good enough you can manner pylon them which is always fun.
Cannon rush never works vs zerg and a good terran it will never work. Who walls as terran these days vs toss. Buildings around your CC get marauder slow. If you see cannons toss down a bunker in front of the inc cannons weeee you stoped it you win.
So, four is the exact right number of SCVs to pull if I want to kill buildings? Good to know.
As for countering, what if I can slow you down long enough to block the advance of your Cannons with a Bunker + Marauder? It has equal range, equal damage, can be repaired, and after the rush fails I can salvage the Bunker.
Cannon rush works pretty well against destructible rocks. Try it! (near gold minerals)
There was quite good advice how to react. As a defender one could use the scouting worker to attempt to kill the pylon powering the forge in order to distract the offender.
When you see just a forge in his base you should just cancel everything you can and defend while banking 400 minerals to fast expand.
On August 12 2010 08:39 Voyager I wrote: Decent read.
So, four is the exact right number of SCVs to pull if I want to kill buildings? Good to know.
As for countering, what if I can slow you down long enough to block the advance of your Cannons with a Bunker + Marauder? It has equal range, equal damage, can be repaired, and after the rush fails I can salvage the Bunker.
I'm not sure about SCV's, but I know 4 probes works. Regarding marauders, you won't have any at this point. I usually start the pylon as the first barracks is finishing and before the first marine pops. If I see completed unit producing structures, I don't even attempt this.
a cannon rush isnt rocket science ANYONE from any type of league can perform one and win if the opponent isnt aware of it, however doing it is like saying "i dont want to play with you i just want to get my win faster so i can ladder/win" its a spit in the face for your opponent that you are willing to risk and lose just for that quick win that doesnt require any skill
I got cannon rushed in 3v3 (not particularly surprising, olol) and, having this thread in mind, I pulled 4 probes to kill cannons as they were warping in. The rushing probe dropped like 5 cannons and a pylon, with a pylon below a cliff powering over the edge into my base, and 2 of the cannons + the pylon finished at full hp, 1 cannon finished at half.
It wasn't particularly bad for me, because I got the probe dead early-ish and just rebuilt, but 4 probes didn't seem to be enough if the rushing player doesn't cancel.
On August 12 2010 10:22 kzn wrote: So, a question:
I got cannon rushed in 3v3 (not particularly surprising, olol) and, having this thread in mind, I pulled 4 probes to kill cannons as they were warping in. The rushing probe dropped like 5 cannons and a pylon, with a pylon below a cliff powering over the edge into my base, and 2 of the cannons + the pylon finished at full hp, 1 cannon finished at half.
It wasn't particularly bad for me, because I got the probe dead early-ish and just rebuilt, but 4 probes didn't seem to be enough if the rushing player doesn't cancel.
Well, two things. First, if he's dropping that much hardware, he had to have saved up 850 minerals (5 cannons and a pylon) and already spent 100 for the first pylon. That means that the rush came late and you should have had more stuff to fend it off with.
Second, you need 4 probes for EACH CANNON (or pylon) he puts up, not 4 total for all cannons. Early game, he won't be able to put up more than a few cannons at once because of his economy. Later game, he can do a lot more. Still, you should have had enough probes to send more to the other ones. And if he keeps building, just queue the probes to the next item so they go attack it as soon as they finish.
Cannon rush, so cheesy, but apparently you can cannon rush your way into plat (possibly diamond as well). Looked at this strat and it reminded me of a recent game where I got cannon rushed, almost the same exact as what the strat says to do, but a good watch nonetheless.
Suggested additions would be other counters to the cannon rush, I've had some success with P (when I spot the rush late, once a cannon is already up) by pumping a 2-3 stalkers quickly and then sniping the probe, once he is gone I can return to normal game plan and let the cannon sit idle until I get a big enough force to snipe it without taking damage. At the very least, the stalkers can prevent the probe from effectively advancing the cannon line. I would assume Terran can do something similar.
Your "send 4 probes to kill whatever is building" suggestion is well taken, but what do you do when rusher probe starts building 2-3 cannons/pylons at once? He can still cancel just as effectively, and 4 probes can't do damage fast enough to kill them all before finishing.
Very nice and detailed guide. I had a great time reading it, even if I will never do a cannon rush as a Zerg who off-races as Terran. There are a few key points you missed out though;
What is the timing on sending your first probe? Do you ever send a 2nd probe? How do you react if your probe is killed? Do you continuously build probes at your main? Do you chrono-boost probes at your main at all?
Hi everyone, first post here on TL. I'm not a big fan of cheese myself, but I got curious about the overreaction possibilities. How about, say, as P I build my second pylon a bit earlier in their base, watch as they scramble all workers to stop it, cancel before it finishes and continue with whatever I was doing before? You could get a slight economic advantage, throw off the opponent's build, etc. Could this work or the investment (delayed pylon at the main, 100 minerals "lost in the warp" for a short time) is too big?
First off, thank you to everyone who has provided feedback in this thread, both positive and negative. If you hate cannon rushes, hopefully this will show you how to smash those dirty cheesers when they try it. If you love cannon rushing, hopefully this will help you do it better.
The tips and strategies that you have shared have already helped me to learn more about this problem space, and I appreciate you sharing your insights.
Your "send 4 probes to kill whatever is building" suggestion is well taken, but what do you do when rusher probe starts building 2-3 cannons/pylons at once? He can still cancel just as effectively, and 4 probes can't do damage fast enough to kill them all before finishing.
You send 4 probes for each cannon he is building. So, if he is building 2, you send 4 to the first one, 4 to the second one. If you don't have enough probes to spare, queue them up. So, send 4 to the first one, 4 to the second one, then queue the probes from the first one to go hit the third one after they are done.
Also, remember to queue the probes to return to mining after they are done. That way you don't have to babysit them.
If he does the rush right, he probably won't be able to build more than 3 cannons at once, because it is so early and the cost is so high. When I do this rush on 1v1 maps, it has usually failed or succeeded by the 4 minute mark. I just timed a rush against the AI, and it was gg by 4:12.
What is the timing on sending your first probe? Do you ever send a 2nd probe? How do you react if your probe is killed? Do you continuously build probes at your main? Do you chrono-boost probes at your main at all?
I usually send the probe at 9 after I build the pylon. It looks like a typical scouting probe because it is. Sometimes I will send a second probe, but usually I won't. There could be some room for experimentation with two probes, but I haven't done it.
If the probe dies, usually it will die early or it will die late. Either one is fine. If the probe dies late, and the attack cannons are up, its job is already done. If it dies early, then you cancel whatever is building and transition to something else. Usually you only lose the cancellation costs. What hurts is if you get the pylon up, then the probe dies. Now you are out the cost of the pylon as well as the cancellation of the cannons.
I don't send another probe if the first one dies. There will probably be more of whatever killed the first probe waiting for the second one when it arrives. Like any investment, you can't get married to your position. Once it starts tanking, dump it and move on.
Often, people will immediately counter attack, so I will build two cannons by the nexus, then start chronoboosting probes and teching like normal. I try to chronoboost probes at my main whenever possible so that I am not too far behind if and when this fails.
i recently cannon rushed because i didnt want to face another mirror matchup. hate tossvstoss. worked though. mid diamond. so i don't mind a guide about cannon rush. it's just another tactic for your repertoire.
personally, I think the 2 gate in base proxy is much more effective than a cannon rush vs terran, and it really doesn't care all that much whether or not it's been scouted on maps like steppes of war.
I guess if you don't scout it, it's just your own fault. :x That's why you should place your first pylon near your ramp to see the probe, when it enters your base. If it doesn't show up near your nexus you should search for it.
Nice and funny Post. However i would like to emphasize that cannon rushing is no cheese. Its a debatable strat but no cheese.
What i dont like is that you sound like an Asshole having fun of mocking about your opponents. I dont think needless flaming mocking or harrasment is a good thing. Maybe you should refrain from such things. Will help you also when you leave school.
I'd like to take a moment and thank this thread for allowing me to get my first 10 win streak.
Last night, EIGHT players tried to cannon rush me...all failing. In all fairness, one got close because I lost track of his drone and stupidly assumed he was just scouting and left. Although, I really don't see how this would be successful on any competent player. But maybe I'll learn soon enough
I read the whole OP but not the whole thread. Please pardon if I've repeated any questions.
1) Out of the current standard ladder maps, which ones work the best for Zerg? 2) As you're pumping probes in your main, how many probes do you recommend be on minerals? When do you recommend building the assimilator?
Its a good point that if you can be cannon rushed, you should. No one should consider themselves a strong player if they can't hold off a cannon rush 95% of the time. If I lose to a cannon rush I assume I've made a mistake with my fundamentals, and need to tighten up my scouting and diligence. Its a lesson learned, and I've even started to give a gg to cultivate the right attitude about it.
I would just never waste my time being the cannon rusher. I try to have a build stem for each race match-up that I can perfect and work into transitions for the mid-game based on scouting, map and economic position. I am by no means a complete player yet, and any game I opened with cheese would be a waste of perfectly good practice time that I really want to use to get better.
I hate to say this, but I've lost twice to this (I am diamond).
Sometimes if you've had a hard set of macro games, you're thinking about a 35-40 minute gameplan, and you do your 9 probe scout see all he has is a pylon and a forge, and you start furiously scouting your base only to see a cannon already 3/4s of the way warped in, it's hard to recover from that.
From the way you guys are talking here, no-one in diamond loses to cheese. I bet the win-rate of it is lower, 25% maybe, but it will almost certainly work, some of the time.
On August 12 2010 05:01 CowFu wrote: "There are two ways to win in chess... playing the board, and playing the opponent. This opening is designed for people who like to play the opponent. "
this is CLEARLY playing the board, playing your opponent would be building to counter his build, or faking a build to do something else, your doing a pretty much set strategy, regardless of what your opponent does, this is not a reactionary/psychological build
I couldn't really make sense of your reply. It seems like you have some of the concepts mixed up. Also, I'm also not sure you actually read the guide (with comprehension).
"playing your opponent would be building to counter his build" This is exactly FALSE. If you counter what your opponent does, you are reacting what to happens on the battlefield. That is the very definition of playing the board.
"faking a build to do something else" Now faking someone out is playing the opponent, clearly.
"your doing a pretty much set strategy, regardless of what your opponent does" False. This is why I wonder if you read the guide. If you did, I think you missed the giant section in BOLD that says, "Question #3: What are THEY doing?" And it's "you're".
"this is not a reactionary/psychological build" Yes, it is. Doubly so. First off, you need to react to what the opponent shows you. See above. Next, you force the opponent to react to what you are doing. See the rest of the guide. The entire game is based on reaction and forcing reactions.
Is it psychological? Depends on the opponent, I guess. It definitely throws them out of their routine and messes up their smooth build. It often makes them emotional. They either get mad and want to try to CRUSH you, instead of playing calmly. Or, they take you lightly and underestimate the amount of preparation you put into the opening.
When someone is playing emotionally or not thinking clearly, they are more prone to mistakes. So if that happens, then yes, it is psychological. If not, then I guess it isn't.
Still, it makes for a more visceral experience. Isn't it sooooo satisfying to crush a cheeser? And soooo nerdrageous to lose to one?
Overall, I think it makes the game more fun. So you can look at this guide as my little way of adding to the starcraft experience.
Sorry for the grammatical mistake there, I'll never let it happen again O' Mighty One
I might have been over simplistic when I said reactionary build for playing the opponent. I meant looking at what he's doing, how he's playing and countering his style not just his army composition. (ex. I see you micro your troops while just walking them and not during a fight, i know that you pay too much attention to your army and I'll backstab you during a fight at your base instead of a flank)
I did read your guide, its how i claim to my conclusion. I didn't really have anything bad to say about your guide except for that one statement which seemed very out of place. I'm not quite sure you understand completely what it means to play the player vs. playing the board. Doing one build and only modifying it slightly without any deception or entrapment. I really can't consider it playing the player.
This build might win very often, but it is clearly playing the game and not the player. Just because someone gets mad at a rush doesn't mean you're playing the opponent.
Those who say cheesing doesn't work in diamond are crazy. Cheesing usually forces a game to become fairly micro-dependent, and if you have good micro and are the aggressor, you will usually win against someone who is responding with delayed knowledge of the cheese.
At least in diamond 2v2, cheesing happens in probably 50% of games (proxy reaper rush, 7-pool, cannon rush, or 2-gate proxy zealots).
I honestly welcome this guide. The effect it will have is the same as almost every "unbeatable" guide that goes up here. Tons of kids spam the hell out of the "strategy" and by the end of 2 days of complete over saturation, most people have successfully practiced the right counters and get just as many easy W's (if not more) off of the cheesers trying to do this over and over again as the cheesers get themselves.
I have two accounts, one silver that just got upped to gold, and another that placed plat (after i had been playing a week and wanted to try placements again). I definitely saw all of this way more in the lower games. I play gold/silv if i want to counter cheese, plat if i want to actually play starcraft.
My day always starts with reading TL and watching last night's day9 cast to know exactly what everyone and their grandmother will be trying today and i just counter that.
... but nerd rage? I used to respond to this the same way in wow. Gamers and Nerds, especially of the 70's-80's generations have always been hand in hand. I don't go down to the football field and smack the cock out of your mouth, don't come down to SC or WoW and think calling me a nerd is going to bother me. We've heard it all before.
On August 13 2010 01:37 ePhrygian wrote: I have two accounts
You paid for the game twice just to have two names?
Naa, wasn't to have two names. I bought the extra CD-Key so that i could have an account where i really didn't care at all if i lost. I didn't play in beta and when i picked up SC on the 27th, i wanted to improve my ladder ranking. I was doing relatively recent so i picked up a 2nd cd key to play with the mentality that "on this account i just don't care if i lose". With not giving a shit in mind, I ended up winning all placement games, placing plat, and doing well. Lesson was also learned.
As with alot of the people who played SC when it originally came out, I was 14 in 98. i'd hope alot of people who were 12 or 14 in '98 would be in a spot in 2010 that $60 wouldn't set them back at all. Given the amount I play this game, if it stopped me from spending $40 at the bar even just 2 nights it's saved me money.
On August 12 2010 22:52 Neverhood9 wrote: I'd like to take a moment and thank this thread for allowing me to get my first 10 win streak.
Last night, EIGHT players tried to cannon rush me...all failing. In all fairness, one got close because I lost track of his drone and stupidly assumed he was just scouting and left. Although, I really don't see how this would be successful on any competent player. But maybe I'll learn soon enough
Good job man! Yeah, it seems that a few people are now crushing cannon rushers because they know the appropriate response. Hopefully this will force rushers to up their game and actually make situational decisions instead of blindly charging forward and screaming CANNNNONNN RUUUUUSH!!!
Now, this is a beautiful example of why I love cannon rushes. I usually play a much more structured game, and i'll admit i nubbed things up alot. Any halfway decent toss should have crushed me there. But this guy invested so much of his econ into the cannon rush that there was nothing he could do.
Between wasted econ and not knowing how to actually play starcraft, this guy got pwn'd when his cannon rush failed.
Please post MORE "cheese" strategies so they can be over-saturated and countered until the kids who want a quick W get bored and go back to their consoles.
On August 12 2010 02:08 MICHELLE wrote: TL, did you really become this? A cannon rush strategy guide?
What do you have against cannon rushing? it is a a SC2 strat and he deserves the spot in the SC2 strategy forum ._. If you don't want to read this type of article feel free to read more advanced thread in this forum..
however i think that cannon rushing really isn't a good cheese..i never use it..simply too risky..
Did not see this in your guide but you shouldn`t try cannon rushing vs a Terran on a map with islands or expos fully blocked by rocks. Just happened to me on scrap station the guy rushed me and i simply floated to the island built some MMM and wrecked the guy. He couldn't get a void ray in time and only had 6-7 zealots when I dropped his main with 2 medivacs full of marines. Replay in case you want http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55799-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station.
Loved this, nothing like a good piece of cheese. For the haters telling everybody that cheesing only works when facing shit opponents or being a shit player yourself trying to get lucky, I present you a traumatic part of Starcraft history:
Watch at your own risk.
Also I couldn't find the 'strafe gets cannonrushed by a C+ newbie on ICC' game (probably since it wasn't released outside of some pimpest plays vid) but let me assure you, good players get cannonrushed, proxied, cheesed in all ways and yes, they lose to it as well.
On August 13 2010 22:29 Stegosaur wrote: Loved this, nothing like a good piece of cheese. For the haters telling everybody that cheesing only works when facing shit opponents or being a shit player yourself trying to get lucky, I present you a traumatic part of Starcraft history:
Watch at your own risk.
Also I couldn't find the 'strafe gets cannonrushed by a C+ newbie on ICC' game (probably since it wasn't released outside of some pimpest plays vid) but let me assure you, good players get cannonrushed, proxied, cheesed in all ways and yes, they lose to it as well.
that being said, your step 2 and step 3 are pretty contradictory
Step 2 requires you to start your forge after knowing where your enemy is (after you scout them)
Step 3 requires you to have your forge already under construction as you arrive at their base
This makes no sense
You're right, I should clarify that. On 1v1 maps, you know where they are at the start. So, you can start the forge early and it will be under construction when you arrive at their base. On larger maps, sometimes you cant locate them immediately, so you have to wait to see how quickly you find them.
Either way, you want to start the forge as early as possible so that you minimize the amount of time it takes to commence the rush.
God, I don't know whether to hate you, or respect you.
Regardless, I really enjoyed reading this. There's always something to learn from Cheeses, I agree. I just never stay long enough to try and get out of it, nor do I watch the replay and relive the embarrassment. Thanks for writing this. Props.
I've noticed that some players won't fully scout after defeating the cannons, and sometimes you can leave an extra pylon in the corner. Then warpgates, lol.
Excellent post. Do you have any good replays? I'd love to see your placements and timings, and some excellent and failed responses by all three races. And some good qqs!
Why not use a real strat if you're going to be this much thought into it? Cannon rushing is for people that can't macro when the game goes longer than 10 min.
On August 14 2010 06:50 Hann1bal wrote: Why not use a real strat if you're going to be this much thought into it? Cannon rushing is for people that can't macro when the game goes longer than 10 min.
Scroll up again, tell Boxer or Bisu they can't macro :D There's nothing wrong with some cheese now and then and he didn't even try and disguise it as something honourable.
1) mothership rush 2) mass recall into base include a probe 3) build forge in opponents base 4) build cannons in opponents base 5) lose because you are not huk
I saw Sen come up with an interesting way to deal with cannoning your ramp. He simply built a baneling nest, built 6 banelings and that was enough to take out both pylons at the bottom of his ramp. Then he took his nat.
A variation of the Forge in base version that should be mentioned:
Build the first Pylon right against the corner of their CC/Nexus. Build the Forge against the Pylon on the opposite side from the CC/Nexus overhanging the Pylon creating a pocket against their CC/Nexus. Build the Cannon inside that pocket. Build another Pylon immediately Walling off the Cannon.
The end result should look something like this:
As you can see, do to the geometry of the buildings, it does leave space for 2 workers to reach the cannon and attack. If you place the left Pylon any further out, it will leave a space directly under it, and if you place the Forge further over, it opens up the space on the other side of it as well.
One way to make it tighter by 1 space and possibly to add a followup to the rush is to use a Gateway instead of the second Pylon at the cost of 50 more minerals, like so:
Still one space, but I think that's plenty manageable. Plus, you can put your own probe there to buy time for the cannon to finish.
The only way to stop this is to block one of the buildings from going down (Second Pylon/Gateway, most likely) and THEN killing the Cannon with workers before it warps in. It's worth noting that just with the 3-wall pocket, you can't get more than 3 workers attacking the cannon, which means you have to react very fast in order to kill it before it can finish and kill off the 3 workers (they pretty much have to all be attacking before it reaches the halfway mark).
On August 14 2010 15:58 Sylvr wrote: A variation of the Forge in base version that should be mentioned:
Build the first Pylon right against the corner of their CC/Nexus. Build the Forge against the Pylon on the opposite side from the CC/Nexus overhanging the Pylon creating a pocket against their CC/Nexus. Build the Cannon inside that pocket. Build another Pylon immediately Walling off the Cannon.
The end result should look something like this:
As you can see, do to the geometry of the buildings, it does leave space for 2 workers to reach the cannon and attack. If you place the left Pylon any further out, it will leave a space directly under it, and if you place the Forge further over, it opens up the space on the other side of it as well.
One way to make it tighter by 1 space and possibly to add a followup to the rush is to use a Gateway instead of the second Pylon at the cost of 50 more minerals, like so:
Still one space, but I think that's plenty manageable. Plus, you can put your own probe there to buy time for the cannon to finish.
The only way to stop this is to block one of the buildings from going down (Second Pylon/Gateway, most likely) and THEN killing the Cannon with workers before it warps in. It's worth noting that just with the 3-wall pocket, you can't get more than 3 workers attacking the cannon, which means you have to react very fast in order to kill it before it can finish and kill off the 3 workers (they pretty much have to all be attacking before it reaches the halfway mark).
Or just kill the initial pylon with your workers... 4 workers can do more damage to a pylon then what it receives from warping in (if that makes any sense). The reason the OP tells you to hide the first pylon and cannon is so that that it doesn't immediately get shut down from him sending all his workers in to kill it. Play a game vs a Very Hard or Insane AI and try to cannon rush them. Even if they don't see your pylon, they will use their map hacks and immediately send all their probes to kill it and then your boned. If you build your pylon next to his Nexus, expect that type of reaction from your opponent.
And to add in my own flavor to the thread, I've developed a very interesting twist to the cannon rush for PvP since I find that cannon rushing vs terran or zerg is a waste of time due to creep and lift-off.
My build is simply treating your forge like a gateway and instead of going 12 gate, you go 12 forge, offensive pylon, 1st cannon next to pylon, gateway while 1st cannon is warping in, then offensive cannon (the one that reveals you have cannons in his base). If 4 player map, send your first probe produced by your nexus to scout, if 2 player map send a standard probe after your pylon on 9. Do a wall-off with your forge and gateway at your ramp so if he fends off your offensive cannons with his zealots you can easily put cannons down at your entrance to take care of any counter push. If I win from the 2 cannons great, but I'm not expecting the cannons to win me the game. My cannons are just there to delay his stalkers. While he's dealing with my cannons, I tech up and proxy a stargate outside his main. Chronoboost out a voidray, and its usually GG since my cannons forced him to get a lot of zealots which delays his cybernetics and stalkers.
Since I'm just swapping the resources of my first gateway for a forge, my initial void ray comes just as fast as if I was fast teching to voidrays from the beginning.. From my experience, the only way my opponent can hold this if he decides to fast tech to stalkers and take on my cannons with stalkers instead of zealots. The only way he would be allowed to do that is if my 2 cannons were placed in a position that would not force the gg if not dealt with immediately (aka not in range of his mineral line or nexus). So if his initial building placement forced me to put my cannons in a position to only threaten his pylon/gateway instead of his nexus/probes, and if he somehow knew I wasn't going all-in with cannons, then he would be able to hold the void ray. Most protoss though freak out and build a lot of zealots and don't realize that the cannons were put there for him to do exactly that. Honestly who would think to fast tech to stalkers to deal with cannons in the first place?
I doubt anyone will read all that since this is posted on like the 8th page but I got so sick of how incredibly dumb PvP was that I just sat down and hammered this build out over like 4 hours (mostly to test if the timings would work). Its worked incredibly so far but it is highly dependent on your first pylon and cannon remaining undetected. Its come to the point where if I can get my pylon and cannon down undetected, I know from that point on its gg since my opponent is forced to do everything I want him to do. The placement of the first pylon/cannon is so important that I literally have a piece of paper with rules for where I put them depending on the placement of my opponent's first pylon/gateway and the map that is being played.
I will post a replay if anyones interested when I get back from vacation.
Actually, it takes 5 workers attacking from the very second it starts warping in to kill it before it finishes. 4 Workers will kill it a few seconds after it finishes. In either case, if they pull that many workers to kill your initial Pylon, then you've already won.
As the OP says, if they panic and go balls on your Pylon, just sit back and laugh and cancel it before it finishes/dies. 4 workers times 25 seconds of not mining will cost him more than the 25 minerals you lose from canceling a Pylon. Besides, if they attack the first one, just put up another one right away on the opposite corner. The pocket works vertically or horizontally.
Edit: The beauty of the build is that they can't react with anything other than Workers, and if they react to anything besides the cannon itself, they're screwed.
BTW, with my version of the Forge-in-base build, you need to send an initial Probe. The Pylon you put in their base is your first Pylon. I know that on Steppes, it gets there at about the perfect time for a 9 Pylon anyway, allowing for constant worker production (though you wanna cut one Probe between the Pylon and the Forge, and at least one more between Forge and Cannon+Pylon/Gateway).
This is a stupid thread. Cannon rushing will get you to a low level diamond at best and no higher, and won't at all teach you how to play the game. I welcome every one to read this guide then cannon rush me, it will be an easy win for me.
Or just kill the initial pylon with your workers... 4 workers can do more damage to a pylon then what it receives from warping in (if that makes any sense). The reason the OP tells you to hide the first pylon and cannon is so that that it doesn't immediately get shut down from him sending all his workers in to kill it. Play a game vs a Very Hard or Insane AI and try to cannon rush them. Even if they don't see your pylon, they will use their map hacks and immediately send all their probes to kill it and then your boned. If you build your pylon next to his Nexus, expect that type of reaction from your opponent.
And to add in my own flavor to the thread, I've developed a very interesting twist to the cannon rush for PvP since I find that cannon rushing vs terran or zerg is a waste of time due to creep and lift-off.
My build is simply treating your forge like a gateway and instead of going 12 gate, you go 12 forge, offensive pylon, 1st cannon next to pylon, gateway while 1st cannon is warping in, then offensive cannon (the one that reveals you have cannons in his base). If 4 player map, send your first probe produced by your nexus to scout, if 2 player map send a standard probe after your pylon on 9. Do a wall-off with your forge and gateway at your ramp so if he fends off your offensive cannons with his zealots you can easily put cannons down at your entrance to take care of any counter push. If I win from the 2 cannons great, but I'm not expecting the cannons to win me the game. My cannons are just there to delay his stalkers. While he's dealing with my cannons, I tech up and proxy a stargate outside his main. Chronoboost out a voidray, and its usually GG since my cannons forced him to get a lot of zealots which delays his cybernetics and stalkers.
Since I'm just swapping the resources of my first gateway for a forge, my initial void ray comes just as fast as if I was fast teching to voidrays from the beginning.. From my experience, the only way my opponent can hold this if he decides to fast tech to stalkers and take on my cannons with stalkers instead of zealots. The only way he would be allowed to do that is if my 2 cannons were placed in a position that would not force the gg if not dealt with immediately (aka not in range of his mineral line or nexus). So if his initial building placement forced me to put my cannons in a position to only threaten his pylon/gateway instead of his nexus/probes, and if he somehow knew I wasn't going all-in with cannons, then he would be able to hold the void ray. Most protoss though freak out and build a lot of zealots and don't realize that the cannons were put there for him to do exactly that. Honestly who would think to fast tech to stalkers to deal with cannons in the first place?
I doubt anyone will read all that since this is posted on like the 8th page but I got so sick of how incredibly dumb PvP was that I just sat down and hammered this build out over like 4 hours (mostly to test if the timings would work). Its worked incredibly so far but it is highly dependent on your first pylon and cannon remaining undetected. Its come to the point where if I can get my pylon and cannon down undetected, I know from that point on its gg since my opponent is forced to do everything I want him to do. The placement of the first pylon/cannon is so important that I literally have a piece of paper with rules for where I put them depending on the placement of my opponent's first pylon/gateway and the map that is being played.
I will post a replay if anyones interested when I get back from vacation.
Everything you said is truth. You are obviously a master of the cannon rush. I would love to see your replays.
cheeses are good to mix up your game and throw your opponent off balance... this is usually in a 3 game, 5 game series in a tourney....
random 1:1s are just a good place to practice cheesing. Its always good to have in your arsenal... even if its just to know the best way to counter it.
That said, against any good player cannon rush will not work 80% of the time. The 20 % of the time it might work is if they happen to be lazy that game and not keep an eye out(or they possibly are doing a ballsy FE without any aggressive units which ive yet to see in SC2... like straight double nexus/CC in SC1), or you are playing a series of games with the same player, and you switch it up when they are expecting normal play. (even then cannon rush as a cheese is worse than the other cheeses you can do IMO, ESP in SC2, in SC1 on some maps cannon rushing actually works since pylons are beastly... in SC2 pylons drop like flies..)
On August 12 2010 02:03 rathe wrote: Guide to Cannon Rushing
I play starcraft to have fun. For me, winning is fun. If you can win quickly, that’s great. If you can win quickly and make the other guy nerd rage... well, that's even better.
I love hearing people whine after I destroy them. Maybe that’s why I enjoy cheese so much. Nothing goes with cheese like whine. Cheesing isn't cheesy... it's a legitimate way to end the game early. As I see it, anyone who can be cheesed, should be cheesed. So, with that in mind, here is a little info I have compiled about cannon rushing as protoss.
After reading this, you will not only be able to perform a cannon rush, you will also be able to successfully defend one and transition out of one if it fails.
What You Will Need A bold and adventurous spirit. A quick and discerning mind. The ability to laugh in the face of convention. And a willingness to sacrifice social validation and embrace your inner wild man.
If you possess these noble qualities, then you, too, can become a cannon cheeser.
Before we get started, my qualifications:
I have none. I am just a guy who plays starcraft. I am not good at the game. I am not bad at it either. When I play, I am a top 5 Platinum Toss. However, my rank slips because I don’t play that much. I have been cannon rushing since SC1. And I have numerous victories over diamond level opponents utilizing all kinds of cannon rushes.
If people tell you that cheese doesn't work, don’t believe it. Anyone can get got. And if people tell you that cannon rushing is all in, don’t believe it either. Cannon rushing is a crime of opportunity. The key to success is having proper information and knowing when opportunity is knocking.
Did anyone else stop reading after this?
1. If you only play sc2 to get wins and make ppl made, its just like a game-playing version of an internet troll. No respect.
2. The reason u slip is cuz your not good at the game. You probably play at a gold-silver level, but just cheese ur way up.
3. Cheesing every game would be as if every play in football was a hail mary. Pointless.
3. If you spent more time learning the game instead of writing this post, you would improve in SC2 10x.
On August 14 2010 13:18 Trion wrote: I liked reading it, but whats with all the Terran hate. I think that was really unnecessary for a guide to cannon rushing. Especially the last line.
If you didn't like this guide, you are going to HATE my new song:
My favorite way to defend this is getting a cannon or two of my own and bringing his cannon push to a halt while teching up. It works especially nicely when the opponent tries to wall off a little pocket inside your base behind the mineral line.
On August 14 2010 20:37 Izzachar wrote: Spine crawler does cost 150minerals. I see you do not play Z loosing a drone every time you build something hurts.
Jesus, so much hate. Its not even that good of a cheese guys, calm down. The write-up is in depth, awesome, and hilarious. In a way its a lot like actually cannon rushing - bound to draw hate but inevitably hilarious. Props to the OP for having a sense of humor, even when evidently, most of the community doesn't.
I honestly hate when I get rushed like this...I remember when someone asked me about this and I had no idea what it was...he then cannon rushed me LMAO
Great guide man, thanks for putting so much work into this. As a gold level player, I am often overwhelmed by unconventional strategies like cannon rushing, because I lack the insight how to deal with them properly.
Cheese does not exist in my vocabulary. In my opinion every strategy that allows you to win a game is a valid and good strategy. I am usually playing more "standard", but I do respect everyone who is able to beat me with strategies that are created by thinking outside the box, so to speak. If they are good enough to beat me with their creative play, I deserve the loss. And thanks to this guide, this will not happen as often as it did in the past .
Keep those cannon rushes coming, that way I can train to counter them better.
Quite the informative guide. Personally, I'd never cannon rush, but theres no greater satisfaction than beating someone who does. Thanks for tips on countering.
This guide is actually a lot more interesting and useful than you think.
It's PARTICULARLY effective on desert oasis, as your first cannon is almost 100% protected, and it's also very unusual for your opponent to scout out the placement of your cannon if it's placed outside of the base. When your 2nd cannon goes up, the enemy can literally do nothing about it. The first cannon is unreachable for the probes, and if they attack the 2nd cannon, the first cannon's attack radius will kill any probes.
So far I've pulled this cannon rush on Desert Oasis at least 5 times with a 100% success rate against high-400/low-500 Diamond players. Not only that, but I've pulled it off versus Terran, Zerg and Protoss. It's really fun, and especially when it fails it's fun trying to transition and still pull off a win.
Definitely worth a try, if anything just to mix it up a little and have some fun. ^^
On August 16 2010 06:23 PhilipJWitow wrote: This guide is actually a lot more interesting and useful than you think.
It's PARTICULARLY effective on desert oasis, as your first cannon is almost 100% protected, and it's also very unusual for your opponent to scout out the placement of your cannon if it's placed outside of the base. When your 2nd cannon goes up, the enemy can literally do nothing about it. The first cannon is unreachable for the probes, and if they attack the 2nd cannon, the first cannon's attack radius will kill any probes.
So far I've pulled this cannon rush on Desert Oasis at least 5 times with a 100% success rate against high-400/low-500 Diamond players. Not only that, but I've pulled it off versus Terran, Zerg and Protoss. It's really fun, and especially when it fails it's fun trying to transition and still pull off a win.
Definitely worth a try, if anything just to mix it up a little and have some fun. ^^
On August 14 2010 15:58 Sylvr wrote: A variation of the Forge in base version that should be mentioned:
Build the first Pylon right against the corner of their CC/Nexus. Build the Forge against the Pylon on the opposite side from the CC/Nexus overhanging the Pylon creating a pocket against their CC/Nexus. Build the Cannon inside that pocket. Build another Pylon immediately Walling off the Cannon.
The end result should look something like this:
As you can see, do to the geometry of the buildings, it does leave space for 2 workers to reach the cannon and attack. If you place the left Pylon any further out, it will leave a space directly under it, and if you place the Forge further over, it opens up the space on the other side of it as well.
One way to make it tighter by 1 space and possibly to add a followup to the rush is to use a Gateway instead of the second Pylon at the cost of 50 more minerals, like so:
Still one space, but I think that's plenty manageable. Plus, you can put your own probe there to buy time for the cannon to finish.
The only way to stop this is to block one of the buildings from going down (Second Pylon/Gateway, most likely) and THEN killing the Cannon with workers before it warps in. It's worth noting that just with the 3-wall pocket, you can't get more than 3 workers attacking the cannon, which means you have to react very fast in order to kill it before it can finish and kill off the 3 workers (they pretty much have to all be attacking before it reaches the halfway mark).
Or just kill the initial pylon with your workers... 4 workers can do more damage to a pylon then what it receives from warping in (if that makes any sense). The reason the OP tells you to hide the first pylon and cannon is so that that it doesn't immediately get shut down from him sending all his workers in to kill it. Play a game vs a Very Hard or Insane AI and try to cannon rush them. Even if they don't see your pylon, they will use their map hacks and immediately send all their probes to kill it and then your boned. If you build your pylon next to his Nexus, expect that type of reaction from your opponent.
imma just stop you there and remind everyone that cannon rushing is the key to the outmatched ai achievements -confirmed by me and a ton of other people in another thread- edit: oh wow i bothered reading the rest of his post................
(i think hes still in copper?)
as an aside, i did mention the drone cost in crawler, remember that photon cannon has other advantages /quote self
On August 13 2010 01:44 Cyber_Cheese wrote: spine crawlers consume the worker, so they cost 150, also they only hit ground and cant detect, so theyd better damn pwn those cannons
glad to see my counter to this lines up with with the OP (being gold means you get cheesed A LOT). I always use 4 drones one cannon (when cannon is warping) was always curious if this was the most optimal method.
I think the reason why Blizzard created the possibilities of cheese is the same why they created the Bonus Pool. To make some kids believe they are good in something.
It's mid-500's Diamond Protoss versus Terran, I do a cannon rush, he probably could have moved his command centre, though I did block off his expansion as well with a cannon.
Very very hard to defend against if you don't know it's coming, and so easy to pull off on this map. Is pretty risky and does fail against something like proxy reapers or completely blocking off your ramp, but that seems to be far less common at this level, or at least it's too early in the game for it to come.
very nice guide, i fully appreciate the thought and effort a lot of people won't be able/don't want to pull off what you describe, but for the people who do, numerous cannon'd victories will await
In my opinion, this rush is a suicide against terran. Yesterday, in a 2v2 match where I was Terrand and my mate Zerg, two protoss players tried this strategy. They completely surrounded my mate, but before they destroy the hatchery, I managed to move my base to natural, pumped marines through 4 barracks and easily punished both enemies. Can be useful against toss or zerg though. Nevertheless, in my opinion, depending on such strategies blocks ones vision of the game and prevents him/her from developing solid strategies that have a chance of winning in upper leagues.
I get my firth chrono zealot to his base, He use to be low on probes so 1 zelot use to be enought for an all kill. He can't have defenses and still rush. I 9 scout P so I have enough time to kill the cannons. But I haven't faced this in diamond. I guess people that cannon rush don't get that far.
It is easier in 3v3 or 4v4 since the opponent don't scout only you. Xoeres tries it every time and he was #2 in my diamond 4v4, but now I he have begun to loose lot of games.
The worse thing with cannon rush is that it only works so far. People that does it will maybe became platinum and face people they can't play standard against and there for they will continue with cannon rush and never learn more advance tactics. My advice is for you to do it max 1/3 of the times not to get into this trap.
cannon rush is stupidly bad now XD 1 zealot + 4 probes can kill a cannon that has been building about half way before it finishes. you just need to scout it out before before 1 cannon finishes and ur golden.
I disagree with anyone who thinks cannon rushing doesn't work in diamond. I've experimented with cheese in the past, and it goes like this: (Diamond League) Against Protoss: >90% success rate (9 out of 10 tries) Against Terran: >80% success rate (4 out of 5 tries) Against Zerg: 100% success rate (3 out of 3 tries, but sample size is way too small)
Then I get really annoyed with myself and then play normally again.
my ways of countering canon rushes: zerg: spine crawlers to stop him from coming closer with canons, then tech up to nydus worm while pumping lings and roaches, then I just nydus their base. Always try to expand with your scouting drone, if you didn't scout, get a drone out somewhere before the canons finish.
terran: always lift off to your main don't even try to waste marines. I think it's definitely hardest to canon rush a terran because I will just lift off and all the pylons and canons that were built are doing nothing.
protoss: can't really do anything except the 4-probe-per-building technique
"There may come a point when you start to feel bad about cheesing. Don’t. Terrans don’t feel bad about playing their POS overpowered race. So you shouldn’t feel bad about cheesing. It takes a lot more skill to do a cannon rush than it does to do 3rax 1A GG."
Don't hate the player. Hate the game. rathe you should consider uploading this to the liquipedia, the current article is nothing compared to your analysis.
My favourite one was when a guy decided to block off the bottom of my ramp with 2 cannons. I just spread creep to the edge and dropped a spine crawler.
I got caught once with cannon rush by someone who must have read this guide, because it was exactly the same. 1 cannon out of sight to protect the forward ones etc. I scout my base thoroughly in all matchups now.
Once I posted this guide, a lot more people started defending the rushes correctly. Which is a good thing, because it forces skill into the strat.
Because of that, I actually have an entirely new way that I execute cannon rushes now, but I have debated whether or not to post it because I don't feel like fighting against it. If do right, very hard to defend.
I'm really happy when I vs. a Terran whilst cannon rushing. Everyone says "oh they can just lift off" but think about that for a second. He won't save all of his workers, and lifting off doesn't equate to magically disappearing with an army somewhere else. Follow him to another place and enjoy doing the same thing. Honestly just doesn't work against a map with an island. But if you see him going to an island, just switch to econ and play the game legit...
Hell, sometimes I get rushed, from proxy, and I build my nexus at his natural since it's either destroyed or lifted off and now have the full protection of my cannons I used offensively.
I will say though: using this against a zerg is suicide.
Honestly, if I see someone cannon rushing me I mass up a bunch of marines and when I got a solid amount, I suicide into the cannons to kill the probe. It doesn't matter that I lose my marines, his probe is dead so the cannons can't expand, and if they aren't in range of a building I can just take my sweet time and get a tank and pick them off.
It's a rite of passage for any SC player to lose to cannon rush/gateways in your base at least once. Personally, I think this guide is awesome because in addition to teaching people what it says it does, he teaches people exactly how to kill the cheese. I don't really like the tone of the guide (it promotes an attitude that I hate to see from opponents), but it is well written, amusing, and informative.
Just don't rub it in people's faces when your rush works. They're pissed off enough already
Thank you, rathe! Your guide was very interesting and useful! I tried this strategy out in diamond league at ~950 pt. and it allowed me to rise to 1096 because I was almost never beaten when using it! My win rate with this is 78% (11 out of 14 forge-first games), out of which only a few wins were provided by the cannons dealing damage. Most of those wins come from the fact that going 13-forge puts you to economical lead, which is further strengthened by your opponent wasting his mining time for defending against your cannons (which get cancelled anyway).
The games I lost were lost because of my usual macro mistakes, not because of initial economical disadvantage. I didn't have any. One guy (who actually won after my numerous mid-game blunders) even asked me if I was cheating or not, because my economical advantage was huge and he did not expect it.
This strategy seems to be almost unbeatable to me, however my late teching may be exploited somehow.
The good points are: 1. You are cheese-proof. You can fend off 8-pool easily, and probably 6-pool with some effort (did not play against one). Proxy-gates are just lol. Reaper can be a problem, but clever placement of cannons should stop it too. 2. The opponent has no way to defend without suffering some economic damage. In PvZ he is forced to make lings or spine crawlers thus reducing his drone count. In PvP he is spending his chrono boosts on zealots while you spend them on probes. In PvT... well, he probably does not lose much except his mining time, but hey! Terran is OP! :D
Maybe you could expand your guide by adding a section on what to do when your opponent successfully defends. I am still not sure what is the right way to proceed after I cancel my offensive cannons. I have a lot of minerals at that point and build pretty much everything at my base: probes with chrono boost, 2 assimilators, 1 or 2 gateways immediately followed by cybernetics core and later some tech-building and possibly some cannons depending on what force he has.
Do random cheese. It won't work often enough to get you anywhere meaningful in terms of diamond rank but offers a quick and easy short cut that so many people are looking for.
Who cares about actually getting better at what you do, be it SC or real life, as long as you can beat 50% of the population, you're a winner, nevermind that other 50% that are too good to beat. They all cheat, are nerds, and have no life.
The 50% that you can beat? They just suck at life.
Why is this shit even on the strategy forum. This just encourages ppl to cheese even more and nothing's worse than ppl getting points from ppl that just wanna play the game and get better.
Cheese keeps people honest. If there was no cheese people would just econ wantonly and ignore investing into early units, sacing abit of econ to in base scout, ect. There's a reason even top level players cheese sometimes. You cannot risk being predictable.
And since you probably don't want to spend a ton of time practicing your cheese from scratch on ladder in preparation for a best of series at your local tourny, a guide is a good way to start.
Would not recommend against zerg because crawlers are accessible tech that's just devastating against cannons in combination with creep.
I think the key against terran may be to throw down pylons at the bottom of the ramp if he tries to leave. You need to watch out though if he grabs a gas and gets a reaper out - a reaper can almost shut down new cannons being placed. A reaper can also cause huge headaches for you if he decides to run it right to your base. The opening guide suggested throwing down a cannon in your minerals and a cannon on the opposite side of the nexus. This won't protect your edge mining probes and it won't be good for your actual rush.
I strongly suggest the following if you are going to cannon rush:
First probe goes to enemy base. Throw a pylon down outside his base, beneath his cliff. Throw forge down afterwards and proceed into his base. Run around his base abit. Send a second probe when your forge goes down to throw a cannon down outside his base beneath the ramp. When that cannon is halfway done use your in base probe to throw down a cannon above the cliff and a pylon asap. At this point he'll reaize your plan and pull workers to try to kill the cannon only to reaize there's one beneth the cliff. At this point if he does something like try to move his base (terran) you throw down double gates and start pumping boosted zealots. If it's toss you just keep advancing with cannons and try to end it.
This is slower but you'll make up some time with the proxy forge and very few players will deliberatly scout the entire outside edge of their base below the cliff. Most players, myself included, will scout to the edge only and hten follow your probe around.
To all the haters out there saying this doesn't work against good players, there's an excellent PvP game in the GSL where one player takes out the other with a cannon rush.
Got some bad news for you, bro. No cannon rusher has time to read a post that long... That's like 5 games they could have gotten through on the road to solo protoss 1000. A month or so I was getting cannon rushed like once every 2 or 3 games. All those free wins helped me move up the ladder a lot more quickly so I'm not complaining. Maybe somehow this will reach enough people that the cannon rushes will come back in style and I can boost my stats some more. My favorite part of getting cannon rushed is guessing which follow-up they'll do. In my experience it's 90% 2-stargate void ray, 6% dt rush, and 4% try to grab a hidden expo. It's fun to start trolling them with stuff like "so next come the void rays, right"? They don't like that very much. No GG's from them after that usually...
As a Zerg, I have never lost to a cannon rush. The solution is to just build 2 spine crawlers to prevent any further cannons from being built and get on with the game. During my brief stint as a Protoss player, I beat the only cannon rush thrown at me by matching exactly what they built in my base, except with more probes mining because I didn't send one out early to do all the proxy building.
2. The opponent has no way to defend without suffering some economic damage. In PvZ he is forced to make lings or spine crawlers thus reducing his drone count.
Using two larvae to make two spine crawlers is not even close to what zerg would call "economic damage". In fact, compared to the reaction that you could have forced by harassing zerg's expansion with zealots, it feels like an incredibly sweet deal. Doubly so since the cannons and pylons are essentially wasted mineral.
It's saddening to see that so many of TL posters have a strong bias against cheese and still read the strategy forums. The OP was informative and even outlined the weakpoints of cannon rushing.
Saying cannon rushes can be stopped easily is fine but to say that only bad players do it or that it only works vs bad players is... misinformed.
Thank you for the guide, but I suggest pulling 5 workers if you weren't there when the cannon started. I tried 4 and I lost the game. I tried 5 next time and I took down the cannons when they were nearly done. Stupid toss made something like 5 cannons and I killed them all before my lings poped (15 pool)
I believe this thread should be closed. As much as the OP wishes this to be a strategy, it isn't a viable strategy in any sort of upper level play. The OP has a certain responsibility to building the community of SC2, and to speak of Cannon Rushing as if he was speaking about an actual, viable build is just irresponsible. It won't better any of those people coming to TL to learn actual strategies that improve fundamentals and mechanics, it won't help the community of SC2 because of the "nerd rage" that the OP generates every time he cannon rushes, and whats most important, especially for a site like TL, is that players are here to discuss the game at high levels while not so good players are genuinely interested in becoming better at the game. Most gamers are not on TL to delve into great depths on something that is gimmicky at best and offers no value.
The very best that this strategy can give anyone is a +1 to the win column about 50% of the time. Look at how many pages a topic like this gets, even though most of the posts are "it's lame" or "I'm okay with it." Again, close this thread; it has no value and does not support the community in a positive way.
Nice guide. I don't play protoss, but I like the level of detail you have put into the art of cannon rushing, I usually did one of the wrongs you posted before learning the proper way to respond to a cannon rush and the thing that usually frustrates the most is the uncatchable probe running around in your face, and the seemingly useless attemps to kill warping buildings that only gets cancelled at the last second.
Knowing the risks and methods from the protoss players point of view, I feel a lot safer.
"I am just a guy who plays starcraft. I am not good at the game. I am not bad at it either. When I play, I am a top 5 Platinum Toss. However, my rank slips because I don’t play that much."
You cannon rush and you're a "top 5" platinum toss, you sir are indeed bad at this game, and people rage because people like you who are "top 5" platinum tosses are able to beat them when they are twice if not thrice better than you. Call me a nerd rager if I call you a skill-less noob but when someone is as ignorant as you that they cannot see that in the long run your cannon rushes will not improve your skill at all. (and don't you dare fucking say something like "my micro becomes a lot better" cause my fucking mom can run a probe away from workers and just mash pylons everywhere)
And for anyone who is wondering who would write a 1k+ word post with a title like "Guide to Cannon Rushing" heres a great explanation provided by the op:
ohh wow this seems really complicated, make pylon forge proxy pylon cannons & more pylons? how will i ever succeed, ill stick to normal play man cuz this is too much. cheese is hard guys
On September 18 2010 04:51 powernapper wrote: "I am just a guy who plays starcraft. I am not good at the game. I am not bad at it either. When I play, I am a top 5 Platinum Toss. However, my rank slips because I don’t play that much."
You cannon rush and you're a "top 5" platinum toss, you sir are indeed bad at this game, and people rage because people like you who are "top 5" platinum tosses are able to beat them when they are twice if not thrice better than you. Call me a nerd rager if I call you a skill-less noob but when someone is as ignorant as you that they cannot see that in the long run your cannon rushes will not improve your skill at all. (and don't you dare fucking say something like "my micro becomes a lot better" cause my fucking mom can run a probe away from workers and just mash pylons everywhere)
And for anyone who is wondering who would write a 1k+ word post with a title like "Guide to Cannon Rushing" heres a great explanation provided by the op:
"My qualifications: I have none."
Thanks for the insightful post. To clarify, when I beat someone, how can I tell if they are twice or thrice better than me? I beat a lot of people, and I would like to know how much better they are than me when they lose.
Conversely, when I lose, which I do a lot, how can I tell how much better I am than my opponent? If they rush me and I lose, does that make me twice or thrice better than them?
You clearly have a lot of knowledge in this field, and your expertise would be appreciated. I also think you should contact Blizzard, because your insights could help them a lot with their ranking algorithm.
On September 18 2010 03:38 JamieDukes wrote: lost to cannon rusher earlier ( cannons > zerglings
I don't main Zerg but when it has happened to me I'll make a spinecrawler or two and send the lings to his mineral line. The crawlers are a brick wall to the advancement of the cannons and there usually won't be any cannons at his base that early.
On September 18 2010 04:51 powernapper wrote: "I am just a guy who plays starcraft. I am not good at the game. I am not bad at it either. When I play, I am a top 5 Platinum Toss. However, my rank slips because I don’t play that much."
You cannon rush and you're a "top 5" platinum toss, you sir are indeed bad at this game, and people rage because people like you who are "top 5" platinum tosses are able to beat them when they are twice if not thrice better than you. Call me a nerd rager if I call you a skill-less noob but when someone is as ignorant as you that they cannot see that in the long run your cannon rushes will not improve your skill at all. (and don't you dare fucking say something like "my micro becomes a lot better" cause my fucking mom can run a probe away from workers and just mash pylons everywhere)
And for anyone who is wondering who would write a 1k+ word post with a title like "Guide to Cannon Rushing" heres a great explanation provided by the op:
"My qualifications: I have none."
Thanks for the insightful post. To clarify, when I beat someone, how can I tell if they are twice or thrice better than me? I beat a lot of people, and I would like to know how much better they are than me when they lose.
Conversely, when I lose, which I do a lot, how can I tell how much better I am than my opponent? If they rush me and I lose, does that make me twice or thrice better than them?
You clearly have a lot of knowledge in this field, and your expertise would be appreciated. I also think you should contact Blizzard, because your insights could help them a lot with their ranking algorithm.
I think what he was trying to say, less than eloquently, is that "top 5 platinum" IS bad. Cannon rushing is fine if you don't care about getting better at the game and don't mind staying in platinum. But the reality is that it's pretty damn easy to get into diamond just by playing standard and most people on TL would like to get better at the game. The best way to do that is to get better at macro and micro.
I disagree that the people who lose to this are two or three times better than the cheeser. If I lose to cheese then I deserve it. It's kind of silly to accuse the person who beat you of being worse than you. I don't doubt that it is very effective against platinum and low diamond players, but they are by no stretch good at the game. No offense intended, I'm 950 diamond and I'm not good at the game either. Hopefully they are playing to learn and get better, I know that's what I'm doing when I ladder. I never get cannon rushed anymore, however, as I think they have realized that it doesn't work very well at that level. The very few times it does happen are easy to defend and result in a quick win. Besides, they prefer to 2 gate proxy
I don't really mean any offense toward the OP. If you cheese because it's funny and that's how you enjoy the game that's totally fine. Not everybody aspires to be a high level player. But for those who do, I wouldn't make cannon rushing a staple in your arsenal. It was a well written post, though, and the details on how to defend against it should help some people. And like someone said on the first page, if you're going to cheese you might as well do it right.
Pros cheese once in a while in tournaments, it definitely has its place in throwing off your opponent in a 3,5,7 game set. You should know the different cheeses and know how to defend them, and weird unorthodox plays can be awesome. Although you can't really call cannon rushing creative or unorthodox, it's just an easy way to get a quick win against someone who can't handle it. It's part of the game, and I know that if I lose to cheese it's my own fault.
Since I'm a new bronze level player as Terran, I see this a lot. I can sometimes counter it, sometimes not. I was wondering with a different strat though.
I see a protoss move into my base and then disappear while I'm building my barracks I lift off my base after 1 mins and move it to another location I lift off my barracks when it's done and move it to another location I move my workers asap.
Do I lose too much resources doing this? Will a protoss cannon rusher be able to see this?
Ideally, I'd love him to create a whole lot of cannons that do.... nothing at all.
Really difficult to take this seriously when you say that Zerg is the hardest to cannon rush.
Also, you say that Spine crawler > Cannon but they have the same range, how can a spine get close without dying? You also compare their dmg but forget that cannon's attack cd is 1.25 and spine's is 1.85.
I play Protoss and I'm happy when they cannon rush me, because I just move my probes to my natural and build my base there. then I have loads of zealots and my opponent just spent all their cash on cannons. just don't move right away, let them build several cannons
I just had a pretty epic game v. a good (lol?) cannon rusher. I searched mybase but he came in the moment after I left through dumb luck (shoudl have built my pylon at teh ramp). I was too alte to stop it so I expanded to his 3rd base on steppes, and ended up havign a medium length game, but i was too far behind in econ and his blink stalkers beat me in the end. Quite entertaining.
Lol at the nerd rage in this thread... I wouldn't want to cannon cheese, and doubt there are many actually talented players who do it with any even minor regularity, but it really just adds another dimension to the game.
On September 19 2010 04:20 Shikyo wrote: Also, you say that Spine crawler > Cannon but they have the same range, how can a spine get close without dying?
He means it's a brick wall to them. Have fun trying to build a cannon in range of a spine.
Lol @ people getting upset about this guide because it pokes fun at their arbitrary set of "Starcraft Morality." Imposing rules like "don't cannon rush because it is dishonourable" is the very definition of being a scrub. Saying "don't do this because it makes you a bad player" just doesn't make any sense. If you win with it, why stop doing it? It doesn't make you a bad player, it makes you a player who is willing to capitalize on every opponent mistake in order to win. If you go for a Forge-FE build (which is viable sometimes) and your early scouting probe sees no wall-off and the opponent doesn't chase it away, why not start a Pylon next to their base?
Thanks for the well-written guide, OP. This is not a strategy I can expect to get many wins with in ladder play, but it is good to be aware of in case the opportunity ever arises. This is also a lot of fun to do when just playing fun games against friends. And the "stopping cannon rushing" section was decent too.
Cannon rushing is very fun, and very annoying. I've played 3v3 where we are all protoss and cannon rush seperate bases, and it works very well depending on how many protoss the opposing team has.
To the OP, nice guide. And the touch of humour at that =)
I don't play Protoss but the part on how to counter the rush is pretty helpful. I didn't know 4 workers pulled off the line would approximate the cost of a cannon being cancelled. My reaction is to usually lift off though. I also like the section on what to do if the rush fails or doesn't kill the opponent outright.
Still, it's amazing how people separate "cheese" from viable options. If you didn't see or stop the cannon rush, someone fell asleep on defense.
On September 20 2010 05:39 Nybb wrote: Lol @ people getting upset about this guide because it pokes fun at their arbitrary set of "Starcraft Morality." Imposing rules like "don't cannon rush because it is dishonourable" is the very definition of being a scrub. Saying "don't do this because it makes you a bad player" just doesn't make any sense. If you win with it, why stop doing it? It doesn't make you a bad player, it makes you a player who is willing to capitalize on every opponent mistake in order to win. If you go for a Forge-FE build (which is viable sometimes) and your early scouting probe sees no wall-off and the opponent doesn't chase it away, why not start a Pylon next to their base?
Thanks for the well-written guide, OP. This is not a strategy I can expect to get many wins with in ladder play, but it is good to be aware of in case the opportunity ever arises. This is also a lot of fun to do when just playing fun games against friends. And the "stopping cannon rushing" section was decent too.
I have a lot to say about your post but I'll keep it short and sweet I suppose.
What I bolded is a statement that you state does not make sense when all it does is make sense, you obviously fail to see the flaw in cheesing and why it is called cheese. Cheese makes you a bad player because you are relying on your opponents flaw instead of your own skill, now your opponent can become smarter and what you have learned or have done will not be viable anymore. Your only strategy has no become futile, you have not learned game sense you have not learned how to play into the late game. You can't hope to win any tournaments if this is all you do or what you do every now and then, if you watch pro matches they scout cheese very often every now and then it'll slip and pass maybe win a game or two... out of hundreds.
When people say it makes you a bad player it's because it doesn't help you get better it makes you stagnate into one build that is all in that you do not control the outcome of the game, thus you do not learn anything from and are left useless after it has failed.
First of all, Rathe, great guide, as much for content and tone as the responses inspired.
"Cheese makes you a bad player because you are relying on your opponents flaw instead of your own skill"
Seeing as you play BW, I hope you won't mind me using some examples from there (the build orders and counters are more developed, making this line of argument better):
9 pool vs intended 1 rax CC often comes down to whether workers are pulled correctly. If T can hold the ramp, Z is at a disadvantage going into midgame. A mistake of ramp blocking can result in instant gg or snowball into some midgame loss. So basically, responding, in the T's view, is a matter of decision-making in a short time span, similar to the cannon rush. But the success of the rush can be viewed as capitalizing on an opponent flaw.
A lot of early aggression strategies rely on opponents forcing bad decisions (July vs Best OSL Finals Game 1 anyone?). And yet there's fairly little moral outrage about this.
Anyways, what it comes down to is that its impossible to have perfect decision-making (ever), so its not like there's a point at which cheese builds like this become 'invalid'.
Which brings me to the greater point: a lot of people argue against 'cheesing' because it favors expertise in two facets of the game people aren't necessarily used to (early game decision-making/micro, but the former most heavily, as opposed to long macro games). An interesting thing I've read on the SC2 forums is that SC2 > BW because "strategy/decision-making is more important than pure mechanics". Its not like players shouldn't be tested on pressure-situation decisions, where one mistake will lose the game. Without this general facet of decision-making, SC2 would turn into some glorified version of a reaction time test. Just because its placed in an unfamiliar early game scenario doesn't make it any less valid.
Just because you would like the game to play out a certain way doesn't mean anything that interrupts your intentions is the work of a skilless noob. In fact, if the game style reliably suits you, than that's a small victory all by itself.
For those that are terrified by walls of text: By what objective measure is a Kwanro considered to be morally inferior to a Flash?
if you watch pro matches they scout cheese very often every now and then it'll slip and pass maybe win a game or two... out of hundreds.
Simply untrue. The success rate of time-honored cheese such as the 4/5 pool (BW), at least, is greater than that. Again an example demonstrating that with 'good cheese,' people's decision-making still fails them occasionally. Argue with the effectiveness of Rathe's particular cannon rush all you want; to argue that all cannon rushes/cheese are 100% blockable by the standard of a decent player is indefensible.
PS Oh yes, the "Thanks for the easy wins u scrub, this would never work on me, a 1000 (-1500) diamond player :flex:" are quite good as well. Never knew boasting about being in the "elite" cadre of SC2 players (congratulations, put it in your CV) was considered so relevant to the discussion.
I'm running into cannon rushers and having trouble defending. Can folks who are better than me - and able to defend this "strategy" - post some replays for me to study?
Thanks in advance!
edit: i'm protoss btw, so PvP replays are particularly what i'm interested in.
On September 21 2010 04:02 croupier wrote: I'm running cannon rushers and having trouble defending. Can folks who are better than me - and able to defend this "strategy" - post some replays for me to study?
Thanks in advance!
edit: i'm protoss btw, so PvP replays are particularly what i'm interested in.
i'd love to see some replays, too.
@OP: could you post a couple of replays when your opponents managed to defend your rush? that would be great.
---
i was just practicing defending a cannon rush with a friend where the aggressor places the pylon and forge in my base (on steppes). am i supposed to let the first pylon build? because i only have 9-10 probes this early in the game and he was able to place two pylons almost instantly. if i attack, my whole economy is basically dead and he can just cancel and re-build more pylons than i can handle because he is still mining all this time. or should i let his pylons finish and attack the forge instead? or even let the forge finish and attack his cannons instead?
alternatively, i could also place a forge myself, once i see he is building the pylon. my forge would be a bit earlier than his. the only problem is, usually i build my first pylon close to my ramp in PvP, which makes it harder to place defensive cannons when forge and nexus are spread out. would that be a viable option?
On September 20 2010 05:39 Nybb wrote: Lol @ people getting upset about this guide because it pokes fun at their arbitrary set of "Starcraft Morality." Imposing rules like "don't cannon rush because it is dishonourable" is the very definition of being a scrub. Saying "don't do this because it makes you a bad player" just doesn't make any sense. If you win with it, why stop doing it? It doesn't make you a bad player, it makes you a player who is willing to capitalize on every opponent mistake in order to win. If you go for a Forge-FE build (which is viable sometimes) and your early scouting probe sees no wall-off and the opponent doesn't chase it away, why not start a Pylon next to their base?
Thanks for the well-written guide, OP. This is not a strategy I can expect to get many wins with in ladder play, but it is good to be aware of in case the opportunity ever arises. This is also a lot of fun to do when just playing fun games against friends. And the "stopping cannon rushing" section was decent too.
I have a lot to say about your post but I'll keep it short and sweet I suppose.
What I bolded is a statement that you state does not make sense when all it does is make sense, you obviously fail to see the flaw in cheesing and why it is called cheese. Cheese makes you a bad player because you are relying on your opponents flaw instead of your own skill, now your opponent can become smarter and what you have learned or have done will not be viable anymore.
The problem is your definition of a "good player," and this notion you have that "unsportsmanlike" players who cheese must be mutually exclusive with good players.
Good players are those who consistently win more than most players, regardless of the opponent they face. If your early scout sees an opponent who will fall to a cannon rush, why would a good player pass up an opportunity for a fast win?
You say that a good player relies on their own skill instead of on their opponents making mistakes. This is generally true, but, if your opponent does make a mistake, a truly good player will know exactly how to punish it. This is called playing to win.
I'm not sure where you get this idea that players who know how to effectively cannon rush will only cannon rush all the time, and therefore be bad at everything else. Do you go into every other build thread and say "while this build may work on some people, it will ultimately make you a bad player because people will eventually figure out how to stop it and then you will have no idea what to do"? Why not? The only difference between this build and things like kcdc FE or 4gate is that most good players can easily stop a cannon rush right now, whereas people are still figuring out how to convincingly beat other builds.
There is absolutely no reason not to spend a few minutes practicing cannon rushing. It is just one more trick to have up your sleeve for rare occasions, and doing it yourself will give you insight on how to effectively stop others who do it. If you are too stuck in your tower of "Good Sportsmanship" and "Real Skill" to try it out, you are the one missing out.
This is wonderfully written because it's both lolsy and valid. I main zerg at about 900-920 diamond, and I used to play terran in the beta so I'm competent with the two races. I've been looking for a way to get the 750 solo random wins without learning protoss and/or forfeiting my protoss games. This is it. Mutalisk portrait, here I come!
I know I'm reviving an old thread here but I need help with holding off a certain kind of cannon rushing that I haven't seen discussed much here and haven't found a proper defense for anywhere.
Has anyone thought it through and know a counter to the low-ground cannon rush that will leave you in a superior position in PvP? This would be building a pylon and cannon at the cliff right outside the base and making a second cannon in the base. And I'm talking about if a really good player was executing it, not some noob. So let's assume that you can't kill the building probe since a properly micro'd probe can't be surrounded and lets assume that they will make all the best responses to what you do. If they block off the ramp with pylons and build a cannon on the low ground and then a cannon on the high ground with the first cannon providing cover fire, is there ANY way to stop it other than counter-cannons?
I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out the best ways to stop this sort of cheese and I really cannot find any way to stop low-ground cannon rushes other than building a cannon of my own to halt their progress, which is far from an ideal counter. There is no way to get stalkers out in time to stop the second cannon (the one in range of my buildings) even if I scout it right away, build gateway and core asap and chrono the stalker. Trying to stop the second cannon with probes is going to result in losing 3-4 probes only to have the rusher cancel the cannon and build it again for a loss of 38 minerals. Throwing a zealot in slows the process but nothing more. The base could be relocated but the lost mining time during probe transfer and lost probes would give the rusher a HUGE economic lead, not to mention they can easily do the same thing to the new base. Proxy rushing their base can be easily stopped by them building a single cannon for defense. I know about preventing the ramp block by patrolling a probe but even if the ramp doesn't get blocked and they just build next to the cliff it is easy to protect the cannon with a couple pylons and we should all know by now that killing pylons repeatedly with probes is so economically damaging that it will put you behind even if you manage to hold off the rush.
As for countering with cannons... If they did block the ramp with pylons and they see my cannon go down where it will stop their progress toward my base and abandon their attack then I am slightly ahead in economy and they have wasted 200 minerals more on pylons but I will either have to make another cannon to kill their stuff or wait for a stalker, during which time they can fast expand freely. I can see such a scenario turning out in my favor but it doesn't really leave either party at a significant advantage. If they did not block the ramp and instead proxied their first pylon then the result is the same except that this time we had identical builds minus the slight loss of minerals from their earlier scout which will be easily made up for by their superior tactical position of having map control. All of this is assuming that your scouting is superb, btw.
I'm out of ideas here so if anyone thinks it through and comes up with another viable option that can for sure put the defender in a superior position I'd love to hear it.
On another note, what is the proper response when you find out that your opponent is zealot rushing if you don't scout it until the zealots are already in production or on the way and you did a 13-gate? Any way to hold it off without losing so many probes you'll be behind?
On another note, what is the proper response when you find out that your opponent is zealot rushing if you don't scout it until the zealots are already in production or on the way and you did a 13-gate? Any way to hold it off without losing so many probes you'll be behind?
you have two options here from my experience, assuming you're talking about someone who does something like 10 pylon 10 gate 10 gate:
- stop probe production for a bit (cancel gas if you started it) and drop another gateway. your gateways will be slower than theirs, but you have a few more probes and you can usually equal their zealot count. if you have an even number of zealots you are more than okay because you have probes to help out since the fight is in your base.
- stop probe production for a bit and drop a forge and a cannon or two as soon as possible. this response is better when you scout something super late and you can't possibly equal the zealot count. if the cannon gets up you're usually okay, but you have to produce and micro zealots out of your gateway as well and defending this way can be tricky against someone with good micro. i think tester played a game that is a good example of this defense in gsl 1 on metalopolis, he scouted a proxy 2 gate really late and managed to hold it off with a couple cannons and excellent micro.
Excellent guide! I play Protoss primarily and I like to cannon rush on occasion (like 10% of the time); I also appreciate your analysis on the best ways to defend against it, as I have occasionally lost to it as well.
Ok, I didnt read the whole guide, let alone the thread.
I play toss, and when I am cannon rushed I cry in joy of the free win. Defeting a cannon rush is as simple as:
Do not get gas or cyber core, get a zelot, send it to his base, Expand on 400 minerals to the other side of the map, chronoboost zealots to pressure his base and if he gets cannons to defend just patrol arround you new base to spot any attempt to cannon it too. Transfer all probes once the new nexus is @ 60-75% done. Go on to win, but be carefull, as most cannon rushers have no clue of when to stop cheeseing and follow up with voidrays or DTs.
On another note, what is the proper response when you find out that your opponent is zealot rushing if you don't scout it until the zealots are already in production or on the way and you did a 13-gate? Any way to hold it off without losing so many probes you'll be behind?
you have two options here from my experience, assuming you're talking about someone who does something like 10 pylon 10 gate 10 gate:
- stop probe production for a bit (cancel gas if you started it) and drop another gateway. your gateways will be slower than theirs, but you have a few more probes and you can usually equal their zealot count. if you have an even number of zealots you are more than okay because you have probes to help out since the fight is in your base.
- stop probe production for a bit and drop a forge and a cannon or two as soon as possible. this response is better when you scout something super late and you can't possibly equal the zealot count. if the cannon gets up you're usually okay, but you have to produce and micro zealots out of your gateway as well and defending this way can be tricky against someone with good micro. i think tester played a game that is a good example of this defense in gsl 1 on metalopolis, he scouted a proxy 2 gate really late and managed to hold it off with a couple cannons and excellent micro.
Basically I'm talking about if you're on a 4 player map and you get unlucky with scouting so that you don't scout their base until their 2 zealots are just popping out. At that point you will have 1 gateway with a normal build and getting a cannon up will take at least 85 seconds (game time) and another gateway will take 65 seconds. At this point it would seem there is no way to hold it off without losing a ton of probes. Since there's really no way to catch up in zealots at that point I would think the only chance would be to wall-off and try to rush a cannon or possibly a stalker to kite but that would only work if you had already placed your buildings for a wall-off.
On November 13 2010 10:19 Tsabo wrote: Ok, I didnt read the whole guide, let alone the thread.
I play toss, and when I am cannon rushed I cry in joy of the free win. Defeting a cannon rush is as simple as:
Do not get gas or cyber core, get a zelot, send it to his base, Expand on 400 minerals to the other side of the map, chronoboost zealots to pressure his base and if he gets cannons to defend just patrol arround you new base to spot any attempt to cannon it too. Transfer all probes once the new nexus is @ 60-75% done. Go on to win, but be carefull, as most cannon rushers have no clue of when to stop cheeseing and follow up with voidrays or DTs.
and thats why you should read the whole guide; let alone thread
It is a nervy way of playin. Yesterday some jerk (sry for that) tried this stuff on my... first probe out and all that cheese... The great thing was that i beat him up so hard i think he was crying afterwards... but not unitl he wrote: "You got lucky this time" ... sry but i play sc2 for relaxation after a hard days work and i look foreward for nice games, with struggles, retreads and stuff... and not for a 5 minute game of cheese. There should be a report flag: "Cheese player" like "real life threat" because its almost as bad...
On August 12 2010 02:26 SageFantasma wrote: Oh mah gawd this was a ridiculously long guide for something so simple. Say what you say, cannon rushing is like stealing candy from a baby, easy and the only thing the baby'll do is whine. For more than valid reasons. Personally the fact that you get extreme satisfaction from the dissatisfaction of others is sad, and to me, disgusting. But you are who you are, and I sure as hell hope I don't run into you in a 1v1 so I'm not forced to appease your satisfaction.
On another note, what is the proper response when you find out that your opponent is zealot rushing if you don't scout it until the zealots are already in production or on the way and you did a 13-gate? Any way to hold it off without losing so many probes you'll be behind?
Ok I see you made a thread about this before, I don't knwo why you got no replies. here is a related thread although it is from a zergs point of view. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155832 Way I see it these are your options. Early scout - Build a forge and a cannon to protect mineral line or ramp. Medium scout (notice probe laying low ground cannon) - either send out 4 probes per cannon or wall of ramp with gateways to prevent probe access. Late scout (only notice when probe in your base setting down cannons) - gg
Same with zealot rush, if the gateways are already done in your base and pumping zealots the most you could do would be to throw down another gate. If you're not talking about proxy gates, you can probably defend with cannons or matching gateway count.
I think it's quite funny how many people in this thread talk about "cheesers", as though people who cannon rush on ladder do so to the total exclusion of all other builds. I got a fair amount of practice cannon rushing in 3v3 back in beta when Arakan Citadel was the only 3v3 map, and every once in a while I decide to pull it out in PvP. It's not like anything interesting happens in mid-diamond PvP anyway, right? =P Bloody Colossus wars.
Certainly there are some people who determinedly cannon rush every game; just like some people determinedly 4-gate every game, or Marine-SCV every game, or 6-9 pool every game. But I get the feeling that they're the minority. Most people who cheese from time to time I think just like keeping things fresh. Heck, I don't remember the guy's name but someone in GSL1 successfully cannon-rushed; PvP on Metalopolis I think. I'd bet a pretty penny that he didn't get to the GSL by "being a skill-less noob."
Personally, when I get cheesed (win or lose), it means I just played a game that was very different from most games I play. It's a fun opportunity to practice my worker micro, if nothing else. Why get so bent out of shape about that?
Sometimes I decide to "late cannon rush" when my probe is all allone in the opponents base, undisturbed etc. I just build the pylon that could be used as a wg proxy pylon, warp in some annoying cannons and 3 minutes later warp in 4 stalkers Good guide, excellent tips on countering, and certainly belongs in sc2 strategy.
On August 12 2010 02:07 SwaY- wrote: GL cannon rushing in diamond But nice guide anyways, someone had to do it eh? This will spawn a lot of cheesing attempts today -_-~
You do watch pros play right? they still canon rush... i mean.. LOL just watch idras stream tehe.. but on a serious note it works..
There are at least two completely new strains of cannon rush that I didn't touch on in this guide. One is the external rush, one is the blockade rush shown above.
I have been using them to great effect. I thought about expanding the guide to include them. If there is interest, I will.
I was thinking... what would happen if you Cannon-Probe All-In? I know in 3v3's I often send a second probe shortly behind the first probe on some maps, one to look like a legitimate scout while the other is up to nefarious deeds. Alternatively, you can very visibly throw down a pylon to one side while working on your true cannon rush opposite from the decoy. They'll throw their SCVs to one side while you push in from the other. It's economically more risky though.
Now for the Cannon-Probe All-in, I was thinking maybe once I scout an opportunity, pool some minerals while doing the pylon cancelling chain against the anti-rush workers. Then pull most probes from minerals and run them across the map to swarm the anti-rush workers. Theoretically, with some micro, you should be able to preserve your probes health long enough to ensure early cannons getting placed even if they throw all their workers at you.
It should also slow down their ability to produce proper counters, and I know that vs terran especially, you can get a surround on a marine and kill it off quickly.
I have found the the most effective way to deal with this cheese as protoss is to remain calm, pull all probes off gas onto minerals untill the cannon line gets in range and simply take a ninja expo, build a forge and return the favor, or proxy gate him
I cannon rushed my way to Diamond, as soon as you typed "I try to place the pylon out of sight" I knew this was awful. The best cannon rushes aren't a play based on hope.
On March 04 2011 15:54 STALLONEZONE wrote: I cannon rushed my way to Diamond, as soon as you typed "I try to place the pylon out of sight" I knew this was awful. The best cannon rushes aren't a play based on hope.
Reading is tech, and you need to do some teching. I never said to do it blind and hope to win. In fact went to great lengths to state the opposite. There is an actual section called "when to cannon rush."
Cannon rushing is a crime of opportunity. If you decide, a priori, to cannon rush someone, you have at best a 50/50 shot at it working. You can’t just say, “I’m going to cannon rush.” Instead, you have to scout their base and look for the opportunity. If you see it, you need to act quickly. Otherwise, you need to have a plan to transition to a normal opening.
Placing the pylon out of sight is the basic way to cannon rush. There are many other ways. But never did I say do it based on hope.
Next time try reading and comprehending what you read before posting a derogatory comment.
People like you are the reason I haven't updated the guide with newer techniques.
On March 04 2011 15:45 Conrose wrote: I was thinking... what would happen if you Cannon-Probe All-In? I know in 3v3's I often send a second probe shortly behind the first probe on some maps, one to look like a legitimate scout while the other is up to nefarious deeds. Alternatively, you can very visibly throw down a pylon to one side while working on your true cannon rush opposite from the decoy. They'll throw their SCVs to one side while you push in from the other. It's economically more risky though.
Now for the Cannon-Probe All-in, I was thinking maybe once I scout an opportunity, pool some minerals while doing the pylon cancelling chain against the anti-rush workers. Then pull most probes from minerals and run them across the map to swarm the anti-rush workers. Theoretically, with some micro, you should be able to preserve your probes health long enough to ensure early cannons getting placed even if they throw all their workers at you.
It should also slow down their ability to produce proper counters, and I know that vs terran especially, you can get a surround on a marine and kill it off quickly.
Interesting idea. Have you experimented with it any? For the newer blockade style builds, I was thinking of doing something like this... because usually they will attach a follow probe as soon as they see you. If you had multiple probes, however, you could still blockade, win the fight, and create cannons inside the blockade.
If you test this, let us know how this works out for you.
On August 12 2010 02:26 SageFantasma wrote: Oh mah gawd this was a ridiculously long guide for something so simple. Say what you say, cannon rushing is like stealing candy from a baby, easy and the only thing the baby'll do is whine. For more than valid reasons. Personally the fact that you get extreme satisfaction from the dissatisfaction of others is sad, and to me, disgusting. But you are who you are, and I sure as hell hope I don't run into you in a 1v1 so I'm not forced to appease your satisfaction.
/signed.
The only part I liked about the Post is the part that you explained how to counter/defend the cannon rush in. But the strategy is a cheese and infact its only gonna make you win esp. in PvP not for skill and good macro, but only for dumb decision making of your opponent. Also the fact that you take pleasure in the frustration of your opponents I think is pretty bad and shows what kind of character you are.
i don't think zerg is that difficult to cannon rush... You just need to cannon rush to get ahead (i.e. cannon rushing an expansion) you don't always need to win with the cannon rush just get very ahead to do it. Try to provide some good videos too so people have a visual that are still learning how to cannon rush.
Ehhh, why ppl hate cannons that much *_* When applied smart as described in the OP, it's just a part of the opening, not the dumb cheese. And, u know.. Just to punish greedy or rushing to tech builds.
I think cannons are legit only in PvP though, otherwise it's just too risky. And, u know, it works well only vs noobs -.- Vs. decent guys u just risk setting ur ass toooo far behind. Prolly with nice APM and a refined build order it wouldn't hurt much..?
While its well written and detailed, this guide isnt really good.
If you want to succesfull cannon rush, you always rush with 2 Probes, 1 deception probe and 1 building Probe. This Counts on the other dude being lazy in base scouting, or him getting the "i found his probe im safe" factor. Rushing with one probe is counting on the other dude being terribad.
On a 4 Player map you want to scout 2 positions at the same time with 2 different probes, once you find him, show him one probe, hide the other in his base. Build an OBVOIUS pylon behind his mineral or something to make him shift attention, then put up the real deal.
Make as little cannons possible while reaching his nexus.
yknow what's awesome, is that you can cannon rush in team games.
Even if the enemy sees you and responds properly with workers vs cannons, he loses more mining time than you lose in (cancelled) buildings, and all the while you are building probes.
However he has a gate and possibly a cybernetics up, meaning you are hopelessly behind and will lose
...unless you make no effort whatsoever to catch up in tech, and instead feed an ally who, knowing the plan all along, made more unit producing structures than they could normally afford.
1. The guide is terrible. 2. Anybody with half a brain and more than 5 apm can cannon rush to perfection anyway. 3. Encouraging people to cannon rush probably isnt a good idea.
On August 12 2010 02:03 rathe wrote: I love hearing people whine after I destroy them. Maybe that’s why I enjoy cheese so much. Nothing goes with cheese like whine.
it really saddens me when I see some people only find enjoyment in the misfortune of others. I suppose this cannot be helped, aside for not giving in to one's emotions and not reacting. That would really deny you a reward, wouldn't it?
Cannon rushing does not require skill. It can be "mastered" in an hour or two, don't delude yourself.
A guide to cannon rushing? So detailed lol. Good luck to those cheesing after reading this. Cheesing just makes the game pointless. There are many more better game to feel good after winning. just my 2cents
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7936/screenshot2010080120305.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7936/screenshot2010080120305.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/7936/screenshot2010080120305.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/059/523/original/HatersGonna--CHUUUUUUUU.png?1279289172)
![[image loading]](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c384/Sylvr/CannonRush1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c384/Sylvr/CannonRush2.jpg)
LMAO
