EPT[G] ZvT (Not a Balance Thread) - Page 3
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Malminos
United States321 Posts
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
On August 07 2010 06:28 Dromar wrote: This is my current gameplan. After some though about the ZvT matchup, tier 2 units just aren't very good for their cost. Mutas - way too expensive (gas-wise) for how easily they can be fended off, either by a Thor, which is very cost efficient, or by marines which cost no gas, ie they're practically free. Sure lings roach are good against what is common play by T now. But thats only cause going mutas has become pretty much standard play by Z. The whole reason I think muta play evolved was cause helion marauder totally own and omfg rape Z tier 1. Especially with some tank support. The reason you go muta is to, force marines, force thors, force turrets in base. Just by forcing that you get T where you want him. you want less tanks and less marauders. Since metagame has evolved so much now in some games maybe its enough to just build the spire put it smack middle of your base so that T scans it. Maybe T goes for marine, thor, tank, turrets anyway? Well then you dont even need the spire. Dont make any mutas. Just make pure t1. If terran switched to marine, thor thats really good for you with that composition. Hide the roach warren. Rally outside of base. Burrow units all around it so that a scan wont reveal what you have? could work what do I know =) Mutas are gold in some games and absolutely needed if T likes to expand and gets a 3rd on gold. You need to be able to harass him our he will outmacro you. This is my experience from VODs and high level replays. My own games I usually fail earlier due to I have not yet completely grasped Ts early timing attack power. Another way to handle this is to just go tier 1. And then get infestors. Cause they can help you with the bioball, helions and marauders. Here is an interesting replay. Brat ok staying clear of mech though. But it kinda shows that tier 1 can deal with T going marauder helion. So maybe I should stop being so sceptical http://www.sc2win.com/starcraft-2-replays/tvz-zvt/thelittleone-vs-bratok-4/ Also game features a pretty unorthodox opening by TLO | ||
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
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Stickyrolls
14 Posts
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greenkid
114 Posts
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mangoctopodes
United States1 Post
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5348294/ZvT.SC2Replay Here's the first time I've done this, both me and my opponent are horrible players. | ||
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JinjoBust
Korea (North)130 Posts
;D LOVE YA. 15-pool 16-expand }work your own timing for speed in here. There's precious little that Terran can put out early that absolutely requires ling speed, so delaying it in any capacity isn't the worst idea in the world. Whatever happens, queue two queens in a row on your main hatch, and queue another on your expansion when it finishes. If you put three drones on gas when you start a queen, you have about 100 gas when the queen finishes. So take drones off gas between your speed gas and your lair gas for minerals. Lair after second queen on first hatch finishes. This gives you the three queens for dealing with early banshees, and the lair timing is for dealing with cloak. Use the third queen's energy solely for creep expansion/transfusion, as you see fit. And I literally mean using all of it on creep tumors if you can. The speed at which the creep expands can let it get to their front door by the time you're thinking of a 2-base roach harassment, and can let you prep areas for flanking. Keep producing queens from the second hatch until you have 4-5 (general rule of thumb I keep is to have two queens creeping the map, a 5th would be if your purpose was to take a 3rd base quickly, which kickstarts the economy/spending better. With two queens and all existing tumors creeping at the same time, your scouting net becomes immense. Use the lair for your choice of burrow/OL speed/slow drop when it finishes, dependent on strat. And that's it really. You lay the baneling nest or roach warren depending primarily on what you scout the Terran doing, and when they're doing it. Bionic is just asking for a baneling skewed composition, whereas mech asks for roaches. Marauder/Hellion isn't the strongest composition in the world, just send in roaches first to absorb the initial hellion burst, and flank exposed hellions with zerglings. Once hellions get surrounded by lings, their dps isn't that amazing, and the marauders crumple to more lings. It's not that strong and it eats at a Terran's ability to do anything else because of how mineral heavy it is. Mass cloaked banshee is fucking retarded, but it nonetheless needs to be accounted for. Honestly just start massing queens if they start massing banshees. You've already got 4-5 on the field in the first place, so snowballing isn't that hard. Queens can be focused, true, but they're probably more efficient AA than hydras in the first place. A ball of queens just isn't approachable by a ball of banshees. They get outranged and take two volleys for every one they launch. The only difference between your retarded armies is that the Zerg one doesn't take gas and synergizes well with any composition, so you're pretty much free to tech whatever at that point. Mutas would be lolzy. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
On August 07 2010 18:38 JinjoBust wrote: Yeah on second thought nvm. I'm playing my tourney match tomorrow and then watching season 4 of Dexter. So no replays till the day after tomorrow. ;D LOVE YA. 15-pool 16-expand }work your own timing for speed in here. There's precious little that Terran can put out early that absolutely requires ling speed, so delaying it in any capacity isn't the worst idea in the world. Whatever happens, queue two queens in a row on your main hatch, and queue another on your expansion when it finishes. If you put three drones on gas when you start a queen, you have about 100 gas when the queen finishes. So take drones off gas between your speed gas and your lair gas for minerals. Lair after second queen on first hatch finishes. This gives you the three queens for dealing with early banshees, and the lair timing is for dealing with cloak. Use the third queen's energy solely for creep expansion/transfusion, as you see fit. And I literally mean using all of it on creep tumors if you can. The speed at which the creep expands can let it get to their front door by the time you're thinking of a 2-base roach harassment, and can let you prep areas for flanking. Keep producing queens from the second hatch until you have 4-5 (general rule of thumb I keep is to have two queens creeping the map, a 5th would be if your purpose was to take a 3rd base quickly, which kickstarts the economy/spending better. With two queens and all existing tumors creeping at the same time, your scouting net becomes immense. Use the lair for your choice of burrow/OL speed/slow drop when it finishes, dependent on strat. And that's it really. You lay the baneling nest or roach warren depending primarily on what you scout the Terran doing, and when they're doing it. Bionic is just asking for a baneling skewed composition, whereas mech asks for roaches. Marauder/Hellion isn't the strongest composition in the world, just send in roaches first to absorb the initial hellion burst, and flank exposed hellions with zerglings. Once hellions get surrounded by lings, their dps isn't that amazing, and the marauders crumple to more lings. It's not that strong and it eats at a Terran's ability to do anything else because of how mineral heavy it is. Mass cloaked banshee is fucking retarded, but it nonetheless needs to be accounted for. Honestly just start massing queens if they start massing banshees. You've already got 4-5 on the field in the first place, so snowballing isn't that hard. Queens can be focused, true, but they're probably more efficient AA than hydras in the first place. A ball of queens just isn't approachable by a ball of banshees. They get outranged and take two volleys for every one they launch. The only difference between your retarded armies is that the Zerg one doesn't take gas and synergizes well with any composition, so you're pretty much free to tech whatever at that point. Mutas would be lolzy. thanks for a more detailed explanation. I still feel this is pretty standard play from Z. I do not get that many queens though will try that out. The one thing I think is different (and I guess the sole reason for you posting this) is not getting t2 units or their tech at all. So you have a lot of gas freed up for getting upgrades for t1 instead. Spire and 5 mutas is 700 gas after all. You could spend that on OL speed, OL drop, burrow, roach speed, roach burrow move and still have some to spare =) Going hydra for AA would mean smth like maybe 350 gas invested which is till more then drop tech or full roach tech. Replays are welcome when you have the time =) I also think throwing down a spire and wait for T to scan - then cancel it could be a viable thing to incorporate in this play? Since every response to that is beneficial for your t1 army? | ||
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JinjoBust
Korea (North)130 Posts
On August 07 2010 20:16 Izzachar wrote: thanks for a more detailed explanation. I still feel this is pretty standard play from Z. I do not get that many queens though will try that out. The one thing I think is different (and I guess the sole reason for you posting this) is not getting t2 units or their tech at all. So you have a lot of gas freed up for getting upgrades for t1 instead. Spire and 5 mutas is 700 gas after all. You could spend that on OL speed, OL drop, burrow, roach speed, roach burrow move and still have some to spare =) Going hydra for AA would mean smth like maybe 350 gas invested which is till more then drop tech or full roach tech. Replays are welcome when you have the time =) I also think throwing down a spire and wait for T to scan - then cancel it could be a viable thing to incorporate in this play? Since every response to that is beneficial for your t1 army? My issue with that spire trick, and with everyone who's suggested it is that it isn't thinking far enough. If you're clever enough to think of Terrans falling victim to an otherwise standard scout timing for mutas, you'd have to think at least one Terran would be smart enough to account for same. Personally I feel that Terran doesn't really need to scan, especially with their myriad other options to scout the opponent (That don't cost 270+ minerals each time). They could make a reaper, use a banshee w/ cloak specifically as an invisible scout, get a sense of what you're doing from hellion harass. There's all these things. Just because you haven't seen someone make use of a tool, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Oh and on a completely separate note, the extra queens deal with the hellions directly. While going pure-speedling early on, I've oftentimes never even built one spine crawler. I just micro the drones away and A-move the queens along optimal paths. People should just do that period, you can hold off 4 hellions like this without losing more then 2-3 drones. | ||
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Buffy
Sweden665 Posts
 Oh Replay please <3  | ||
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Nivoh
Norway259 Posts
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aznhockeyboy16
United States558 Posts
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comis
United States333 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
Zergs tend to have problems on maps where they canot take a safe 2nd base early on: Delta Qadron, XelNaga's Cavern, Desert Oasis (really wide open natural bases impossible to be covered with crawlers, not close enough to the base to protect if from reapers etc) Lost Temple (cliff abuse) etc. You might want to come up with sg to that. yes many zergs play differently, but probably just as many play in a way you suggest, if the situation allows it, which most of the times doesnt given the current map pool. Oh sorry, i get it, no lair till 3rd base, now that's new And very bady in 95% of the situations | ||
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Chex
United States87 Posts
Please please please post some replays of this. Just some thoughts from my own experience using a similar build to this: the bio mech push terran does can be shut down pretty hard with roaches banelings and some speedlings. A pretty key upgrade for roaches at the mid game is burrow move and I would also advocate getting drop pretty soon after maybe your third base. Drop lets you baneling drop the tanks AND his mineral line. Really useful. Again please post some replays. | ||
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Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
Lets face it, except for some very special occasions mutas and hydras just suck ass against terran. So we need more roaches/lings/blings and to fend of air we need queens! I totally took this concept in my game and i made it 3-0 today vs other diamond terrans (where i normally lose a ton) most of my games were very long, one of the wins was even on kulas ravine which im especially proud of My approach included a 14 pool / 16 hatch, relatively quick speedlings, and then getting a banelingnest and roachwarren pretty soon. On Kulas i couldnt scout at all, so i was surprised a bit by 2 banshees but i had 2 queens to fend it off at my natural (+1 in my main and one more building at the nat), and thanks to those queens i also had creep everywhere. I put up some sporecrawlers and one overseer and that was good enough for air in that game. With the baneling nest i was able to pressure him quite well, i got through his wallin and killed 2 tanks with speedlings, but it kept him on his toes more then beeing gamedeciding. I got a spire eventually and made like 5 mutas so he built turrets everywhere, and also i could scout all the expansions on the map with patrol mutas. Once i got the 3rd and the 4th at gold up, i was just a matter of time until my ultras ran over him. Another game on steppes of war: here i like to scout with the 8th drone to harrass his supply depot worker, which gets terran totally out of their timing usually. Got one scv kill before my drone died aswell, and then i was easily able to hold off the obligatory hellions with 2 spines and alot of speedlings and 3 queens. I figured he might panic into banshees since i though i was well ahead, so i spent 300 minerals on 2 sporecrawlers which i never needed in the end. I got both roachupgrades as soon as the lair finished and burrow, to harrass a bit and keep mapcontrol. With no money spent on hydraden or spire, i could get all those nice upgrades and again just take 3rd and 4th and 5th at free will, doomdropping him every now and then or greeting his pushes out of his natural with 2-3 fungal growths. man, ill never make lair for hydras or mutas every again! 3-4 queens are so awesome, just for the creep everywhere alone, and the quick saturation of new expos. Roaches are the best zerg unit there is vs terran, so both upgrades + burrow + creep are just awesome. And of course ultras and broodlords are known to be the GG unit, if theres enough money behind them  | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
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OPSavioR
Sweden1465 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Right now my ZvT playbook is this... 14 pool 17 gas Queen + 4x lings -> Roach Warren -> 2nd queen -> 4-6 roaches I use the 2x queen for any run bys while getting tumors started and the roaches pressure the wall to force the Terran to make some units I then follow up with an expansion + ling speed -> lair. From there I have the mid-game that you're describing, infestor/roach/ling/bling. The only thing is it's worthless. The Terran, on seeing your opening, has the option to go banshees/vikings in time for the mid game if they don't see you preparing air defense. If they do they stay with their mech or bio path and push on your weaker ground army. You can get a 3rd queen out in time maybe, but really that's about it. Any more than 3 queens and you won't really have lair in time to deal with the threat of cloak. I feel like 90% good about the opening, but don't know how to bend it to account for air without having it fall apart to anything else. | ||
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