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So I figured out a different way to play off two bases against Terran, and it's contrary to a lot of Zerg play that we've seen so far. Cept it works.
The Idea: Use T1 units/tech to play from two bases while securing a third. Very simple stuff, but has a lot of thought behind it.
The Logic: The Tier 2 options for Zerg are very nice, but they tend to have very little effect for the purposes they serve because they're so damn expensive.
Hydras:
If you try constructing a Hydra + X composition from two bases, the costs for the Hydra wind up cutting into your army heavily, and there are key periods where you're a squishy mess asking to be torn apart by a timing push.
Mutalisks:
If you go for Mutas, a reasonable Terran will see them coming from a mile away and have prepared air defenses, typically in the form of Thor. The 700/700 cost of going those first 7 mutas is never vindicated, because you can't harass efficiently with the 10-range bastard firing volleys at you. You can try to abuse the fact that 5 Mutas can take on a Thor, but chances are that it's marine or turret supported. It's a dead cost that returns nothing for it's point in the game.
Nydus:
Nydus is stupid for mid game. Just get drop.(Suppose I should elaborate. Basically, the costs of the Nydus worm don't make very much sense for that early in the game. Using it in this fashion is wasteful in my eyes. I think it should be used for expanding and mobility past a 3rd base. Anything before that doesn't seem meaningful.)
Infestors:
Annnnd Infestors don't exactly stand up to standard timing pushes.
Really though, the first three units you can make are the most effective against T en masse. Most combinations of Roach/Speedling/Baneling can kill a range of T pushes very efficiently. The other key to them is that they mass extremely well from 2 bases, allowing for aggression.
Aggression? But wait, what about air?
Here we kill two birds with one stone, and raise the Queen to the pedestal. Queens are nice for macro, but they're also nice for pushing and defending air. Typically with this approach, I'll build 2-3 queens extra for the pushing ability and transfuse.
EDIT: elaboration on air, since people don't like reading the whole thread.
Mass cloaked banshee is fucking retarded, but it nonetheless needs to be accounted for. Honestly just start massing queens if they start massing banshees. You've already got 4-5 on the field in the first place, so snowballing isn't that hard. Queens can be focused, true, but they're probably more efficient AA than hydras in the first place. A ball of queens just isn't approachable by a ball of banshees. They get outranged and take two volleys for every one they launch. The only difference between your retarded armies is that the Zerg one doesn't take gas and synergizes well with any composition, so you're pretty much free to tech whatever at that point. Mutas would be lolzy. You can lay down spores if you're feeling extra panicky, but it's honestly just standard air-defense,
And damnit people. The lair still comes out at the regular time, so you're fine against banshees. You just aren't making T2 units/structures. Just think of the T2 upgrades for the T1 units.
A BUILD ORDER:
14-pool
15-expand
Work your own timing for speed in here. There's precious little that Terran can put out early that absolutely requires ling speed, so delaying it in any capacity isn't the worst idea in the world.
3 queens+lair
Whatever happens, queue two queens in a row on your main hatch, and queue another on your expansion when it finishes. If you put three drones on gas when you start a queen, you have about 100 gas when the queen finishes. So take drones off gas between your speed gas and your lair gas for minerals. Lair after second queen on first hatch finishes.
1-2 queens
This gives you the three queens for dealing with early banshees, and the lair timing is for dealing with cloak. Use the third queen's energy solely for creep expansion/transfusion, as you see fit. And I literally mean using all of it on creep tumors if you can. The speed at which the creep expands can let it get to their front door by the time you're thinking about map control and can let you prep areas for flanking. Keep producing queens from the second hatch until you have 4-5 (general rule of thumb I keep is to have two queens creeping the map, a 5th would be if your purpose was to take a 3rd base quickly, which kickstarts the economy/spending better. With two queens and all existing tumors creeping at the same time, your scouting net becomes immense.
Sky's the Limit:
And that's it really. You lay the baneling nest or roach warren depending primarily on what you scout the Terran doing, and when they're doing it. Bionic is just asking for a baneling skewed composition, whereas mech asks for roaches. I tend to prefer roach/ling because it deals with everything save a marine/marauder/medivac bio ball, for which I'd add on banelings and burrow tech.
Valid transitions once you've secured the third can literally be any T2 unit. 3-base Mutalisk does bastardloads better than 2-base mutalisk, same with 3-base hydra. My personal fave is doing an infestor transition because the tech synergizes so well with my former roach/baneling burrow research. Infestors can MC and infested terran against mech, or FG against bio. They're also more AA detterent, so a possible way to lay off mass-queens (which I'll admit would look silly mid-game).
Tactics:
(Dumb section really, you can figure out most of this on your own, I'll just post answers to a couple things that people were asking about.)
What about Marauder/Hellion? Doesn't it directly counter Roach/Zergling?
First, stop thinking in hard counters. Marauder/Hellion isn't the strongest composition in the world, and it's key weakness is literally "being surrounded". If you send in roaches to absorb the initial chunk of damage and surround it with lings, it dies fast. The hellions are good against light units conditional to hitting a lot of them. If they each hit one zergling apiece, the damage is actually fucking terrible. Not even 1 shotting 1 ling? Nonsense. Then you have Marauders that just crumple hard to lings. You're using one unit as a catalyst for the other.
Won't the Terran still do the same pushes, but this time I only have crappy roaches/speedling/banelings to defend?
This isn't true, actually. Because with this approach, you're going to be a lot more aggressive. Classical Zerg play against other races is typically a glorified tech rush. You find ways to barely scrape by until the big mama units walk in and clean house. With roach/bane/ling you have a lot more "stuff" at your disposal earlier on, and the extremely rapid creep expansion allows you to apply pressure during periods where the Terran hasn't hit a critical mass yet.
i.e. most one-base pushes rely on T1 zerg tech to defend anyway, but the 2-base pushes take time to build up. During this time you can pressure with roaches because 1-2 tanks don't deal with tons roaches efficiently. Furthermore you can make use of burrow and baneling mines to effectively set up stop-lurker killzones, and force gas-heavy Ravens into play.
Basically Terrans would need a Raven to start pushing for real, and a not-shit-composition. HF crapping on people kiddies.
REPLAY SECTION:
#1:2-base roach play vs. 3-rax reaper
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/54065-2v2-terran-zerg-metalopolis
The build is infamous by now. 3-rax resembles 5-rax to some capacity, it's just their timing windows that are slightly skewed.
I'm noting it right here, I die in the video because I didn't care to plan a 3rd base transition strategy. Mistakes on either side wind up canceling each other out, and the timing window where roaches can kill what's defending the ramp is left intact.
my goals are:
-break the reaper contain with speed roaches
-execute a timing push that the T build is vulnerable to
-establish a third base
Early on, my resource management to 2nd base saturation is reasonable. Once base #2 saturates, I have an absurd excess of 1200 minerals. Really I want about 900 of those minerals to be turned into their weight in speedlings/4th queen. To that end, a second hatchery at the natural might be preferable, as well as sim-citying to further hold off the reapers.
I don't lose much to the reapers and manage to bust the contain at the time I wanted to. Right after the contain, there's a small window where if the T expanded, his army is vulnerable to a roach/ling composition. For this particular game, we were cross positions, so I didn't want to try my luck too much (It's a bloody narrow window, and I was missing those 900 minerals of speedlings). I loop around with some speed roaches and deny his third expansion while taking my own. (I also threw down a 4th at the gold, which was completely retarded)
Shortly after that I massacred his timing push with ling/roach/4 banes. He didn't stim, and I didn't get my surround+ late as shit banelings. The outcome of the fight would have been the same regardless because of the roach count, albeit a lot closer.
After that I shortly lose to a second timing push because I figure it's a good idea to just keep spamming low tier units without upgrades (didn't have a plan for my transition, so I look like a grade-A beta copper leaguer :/)
Ideally I'd have wanted my minerals spent, and my inexistant queen helping to goop up the map. In a perfect world, if you drew close positions, your creep to his nat was in place, and you broke the contain on time, there's a possibility to win straight up. I have reason to think that this is the case with a couple of other T builds, but it rests to be seen 
Edit: Thor drop/Tank drop sucks, you can only stall it out with a lot of spine crawlers. Basically; map imbalance, you automatically take an economy hit into whatever you're doing <_> Just save yourself the trouble and ban the damn thing lol.
EditEdit: Also, check out more recent replays where zergs smash 5-rax reaper, it's possible to go even with :o! Bumping the thread because I think it's become even more relevant with recent advancements. Additionally, I'm not going to be updating the thread much more. Enjoy it while it's here 
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This sounds good and all, but I really wanna see the build order, gas timings and all that.
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Respect , beautifull attitude!
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Mass t1 gets melted by Siege Tanks with marine support.
The new standard for Terran is the BioMech push, with tons of marines and 3-4 tanks at around the 7-9 min mark. It sucks.
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On August 06 2010 06:53 KingRajesh wrote:
Mass t1 gets melted by Siege Tanks with marine support.
The new standard for Terran is the BioMech push, with tons of marines and 3-4 tanks at around the 7-9 min mark. It sucks.
That's it, it doesn't. You're making a blanket statement with no support. Roaches are very resistant to tank fire, and can run up the rest of the T1 to deal with the army. Roach/baneling deals with this push.
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This is exactly how I'm playing ZvT at the moment, and it's working just fine. The only exception is if he's going extremely marauder heavy with medivacs, in which case I add mutas. It's probably worth it to note that you're going to need another hatch somewhere or else your minerals are going to soar midgame (which complements the extra early queens nicely).
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Wonderful point Jinjo. I like your thinking.
Do you have a replay for us to see it in practice?
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I'd really like to see replays.
Specifically anything dealing with cloaked banshee pressure or games that go into the late game. I'd be worried not so much about mid game pushes but being able to transition to a late game army fast enough to deal with the increasing number of mech units.
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extra queens, extra hatcheries, lots of roaches and banelings
I like it
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This is how I have been playing vT. However, I opt for a quicker lair and second gas not for tier two units, but for upgrades in this priority: roach speed, burrow, regen/burrow, ovi speed, ovi drop. My two base zerg strategy is similar to a Bulldog in BW PvT where the protoss would try to break terran's natural while expanding, but more economical and defensive in nature.
It is important to keep scouting to know when a terran is advancing his push. These are the perfect times to remind terran that pushing is going to cost them time, concentration, and resources.
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This is the same as I have always noticed, and I really like roach/speedling/bling.
But do you have any replays of you against a T who goes for very heavy air?
everytime I tried to do something similar for extended amounts of time I would always get punished severely by banshees.
Altough 2-3 queens can hold off like a very early banshee, most of the time I die just a bit later (well more like doing significant economic dmg wich adds up leading into the firstcoming push) because my queens are rebuilding and he masses up like 4-6 banshees with cloak.
But everytime (atleast it feels that way) that a terran sees my roach warren after a scan he gets 1 viking to pick off overlords that try to scout and just masses up some banshees.
I have a very hard time scouting, and techinguddenly to hydra's and pumping a bunch of hydra's is not really optimal against the other builds (imo, I just really dislike them against T) but if I don't do it i'll just get overrun by banshees.
I can't do any agression at all because of the sbanshee's, and in your case, your spreading yourself over 3 bases before getting actual AA and I don't see how you can defend that with queens.
Since the first ones get the queens (and if you spent all that mana on creep tumors you won't have the mana to transfuse).
It get's even worse on maps like desert oasis/scrap station where banshees are really popular, so I always feel if I get the slightest hint on those map of starport play that I just have to get hydra's or muta's out to deal with it.
I am not saying that it is a bad idea, I'm just asking how you deal with that heavy airplay against someone who is making sure you get as little scouting info as possible.
edit @KingRajesh, I actually found that with roach/bling/speedling those marine/tank pushes are actually fairly easy to hold off.
To not only ask, but to add to the Op.
My experience with this is not only that it can hold off early agression but that it also gives you a nice techpath into the later stages of the game.
Let's say he sticks to ground I always liked to get +1 armor and +1 melee attacks, the armor is obvious but the melee over ranged attack is because it provides dmg to both the zerglings and banelings and it gives you a nice "upgrade path" towards ultra's.
Then I like to add an infestation pit once I'm macro'ing/holding off stuff well, get some infestors out to supplement my army and lock annoying harass into place (for example vikings that are fungald and then throw some egss under them) or holding hellions into place.
And from there on tech to ultra/ling.
That is always the path that I preferred as a follow-up.
And I usually start cutting more and more banelings to free up gas for tech, since a lot of the time they will start skewing their army composition more towards marauders because of the roach/baneling and then zerglings start to become better while using up less gas.
But ye as you can see, air is a huge problem for me.
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SENSENSENSENSENSEN
You should watch some of his older streams and add your input. I'm really interested in your replays and timings
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This works well against low level Terrans, but a lot of good Terrans react to this by expanding relatively sooner than they ordinarily would, and then your 2 base mass Tier 1 doesn't seem as effective. Then, you are pressured by a 2 base Terran which makes it hard to get your 3rd base. How do you respond to this?
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i would assume a simple bio army would rip apart t1 zerg, since you don't have speed on roaches or banelings.
you pretty much have to go t2 if you want your roaches to be effective vs terran t2 army. i like how this works and we'll have to see though, just adding in some theorycraft.
air shouldn't be that big of a problem, however you have to turtle when they go air.
very interested in replays, since i play the more traditional 2 base -> muta -> baneling or roach -> infestor ultralisk.
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I've posted this before but I think with this strat, you can use this tactic quite effectively with good micro and multi tasking.
+ Show Spoiler +Possible playing around with overlords and drops?
1. Upgrade ovie sacs and speed.
2. Load Queen.
3. Move to untaken mineral expos of opponent.
4. Ovie generate creep, Queen makes creep tumor.
5. Spread the creep tumors with the regenerating ability.
6. Repeat at all other expos.
Best used against Terran since they need to have a scan to remove the creep tumor. If they get a Raven, it's high up on the tech tree and requires a bit of gas to make as well. You can even sneak a drop into the main of the Terran, lay down 1 - 3 tumors and spread them one at a time into the Terran's base. You'll get scouting, him wasting gas for a raven, or him wasting a scan. If you spread them one at a time and you lay like 3 tumors, you can make him waste 3 scans :D
If you do this early enough, his base is gonna have a bunch creep that he can't build on. And it set you up for a drop where the creep will give you a huge advantage if he doesn't do anything about it.
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On August 06 2010 06:53 KingRajesh wrote:
Mass t1 gets melted by Siege Tanks with marine support.
The new standard for Terran is the BioMech push, with tons of marines and 3-4 tanks at around the 7-9 min mark. It sucks.
As I see what he is saying, this isn't necessarily pure t1 but more of a 3rd base before tier 2 units idea.
Note: tier 2 units. I think I will try this idea to some extent as my 2 base muta has been having trouble.
I still think fast speedlings are king but going fast speedlings, 6 ling queen 20 expand and then going for a few roaches and/or banelings rather than lair and getting a fast 3rd could work. At that point I think getting the lair for roach upgrades, burrow, OL speed and such would be good. Essentially a 2 base muta where the first 6-7 mutas are instead a 3rd, some upgrades and some drones.
Just remember the baneling nest is most likely a necessity because a bio push could hurt this build quite a lot.
edit: upgrades mean access to spore crawlers, queens + spore crawler should be able to hold off banshees, especially once creep tumors are spreading and tell you where everything is.
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I like the "T1" style against Terrans but you need the T2 upgrades to make them useful (however, i think by saying "T2 options for zerg are too expensive and inefficient" you were refering to the units, not the upgrades). Yet i think roaches get eaten by tanks pretty fast once he gets about 5 in siege mode. Even though i have to admit they are propably the most durable unit than any other zerg unit before ultralisks against tanks.
But: despites that you dont have any replays i dont think you are right when you say:
"If you go for Mutas, a reasonable Terran will see them coming from a mile away and have prepared air defenses, typically in the form of Thor. The 700/700 cost of going those first 7 mutas is never vindicated, because you can't harass efficiently with the 10-range bastard firing volleys at you. You can try to abuse the fact that 5 Mutas can take on a Thor, but chances are that it's marine or turret supported. It's a dead cost that returns nothing for it's point in the game."
My arguments:
1. By going Mutas you force the terran to invest in: Tower, Armoy, Thors or more marines. It isn't like he gets all of that for free.
(This just came into my mind: If you still want to play roachs, i like the idea to feint Mutas and go for a hidden Roach Warren, if you really think they invest in all those things because of a scanned spire)
2. You don't necessarily need to invest in 7 mutas for pure harass.
3. The terran, as you said, is forced to make thors and they get eaten by cracklings and roaches. Thats something good i guess. I rather have some more thors than a banshee harass or more siege tanks.
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When I do this I get blue-flamed-helion and maraudered with some tank support. And I have a hassle dealing with that. So does my spine crawler defense. I feel without mutas I get steam rolled.
Thats like the reason I go muta to force T out of marauder and helions going marines and thors instead of helion marauder. So then my lings and roaches can actually try and win the game or ultras if Im at that stage in the game.
Stopping just tanks and marines with a roach ball/drop is not that hard but is not why the match up is so hard.
But maybe the answer to my problem above is banelings. Cause I saw a game between LZ and some Z. And even though he had a lot of marauders and thors (some marines) mass baneling owned that even when LZs army was like 1k minerals bigger.
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On August 06 2010 06:45 JinjoBust wrote:
Alright, I won't dwell long on the situation. IdrA screams "imba" because he got pissed and a billion shrieks from a billion little zergs blot out the sound-space.
So I figured out a different way to play off two bases against Terran, and it's contrary to a lot of Zerg play that we've seen so far. Cept it works.
The Idea: Use T1 units/tech to play from two bases while securing a third. Very simple stuff, but has a lot of thought behind it.
The Logic: The Tier 2 options for Zerg are very nice, but they tend to have very little effect for the purposes they serve because they're so damn expensive.
If you try constructing a Hydra + X composition from two bases, the costs for the Hydra wind up cutting into your army heavily, and there are key periods where you're a squishy mess asking to be torn apart by a timing push.
If you go for Mutas, a reasonable Terran will see them coming from a mile away and have prepared air defenses, typically in the form of Thor. The 700/700 cost of going those first 7 mutas is never vindicated, because you can't harass efficiently with the 10-range bastard firing volleys at you. You can try to abuse the fact that 5 Mutas can take on a Thor, but chances are that it's marine or turret supported. It's a dead cost that returns nothing for it's point in the game.
Nydus is stupid for mid game. Just get drop.(Suppose I should elaborate. Basically, the costs of the Nydus worm don't make very much sense for that early in the game. It's like a surprise drop maybe. But from my experiences it works more like a cheese.) Annnnd Infestors don't exactly stand up to standard timing pushes.
Really though, the first three units you can make are the most effective against T en masse. Most combinations of Roach/Speedling/Baneling can kill a range of T pushes very efficiently. The other key to them is that they mass extremely well from 2 bases, allowing for aggression.
Aggression? But wait, what about air?
Here we kill two birds with one stone, and raise the Queen to the pedestal. Queens are nice for macro, but they're also nice for pushing and defending air. Typically with this approach, I'll build 2-3 queens extra for the pushing ability and transfuse.
The pushing ability is a thing of beauty. Creeping the map this quickly REALLY gives you map control, and allows roaches to work at expansion denial before speed upgrade hits. You can actually launch attacks at the natural if it's scantily defended with a baneling/roach combo. The roaches run the banelings in, basically. And with this deal, there's no way a T is going to grab their third when you've basically creeped it.
At the same time, Queens can actively work to defend against banshees and vikings, since your creep perimeter is large enough to not hinder their movements. Any pinpointed banshee attack can be defended by gathering some of the macro queens as well, and the invis isn't really that useful because you're getting the lair upgrade anyway. Just buckle down and defend, build spores if you really need to.
Three Bases: Here there's multiple USEFUL transitions to T2 tech, and they come at a very nice timing this time. Generally, you'll get your third up very quickly because there's less of a threat from ground pushes that you can see from a mile away. You can do roach burrow against mech pushes, baneling burrow against bio pushes, transition to 3-hatch muta or 3-hatch hydra, even add Infestors to your ground army. The possibilities are endless, and I haven't come near to exhausting them.
Basically Terrans would need a Raven to start pushing for real, and a not-shit-composition. HF crapping on people kiddies. I'll post reps as I play genius games that show off this approach's power.
While i like your thought process i would like to ask a few things... what if the terran uses a Brat_OK push while you're teching roaches?
You either A) Expanded and just lost the game because of lack of defense or B) have to use crisis management, lots of spine crawlers to defend 1 base, he'll probably take his nat and beat you with a follow-up
Also, i suggest doing what alot of zergs are now doing, 14 gas 14 pool (Make 1 drone after gas before pool) and put 3 in gas. After 100 gas take them off and get ling speed. It means you can A) Deny expansions, B) Defend your nat C) Easily claim towers etc. If its a map like Kulas i try and break his 3rds rocks slowly, so then when he expands i can send ~30 lings in there and gut the expansion before his tanks are up.
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Awesome OP. Has anyone tried it out? I'd love to see some replays. I'll try to get some replays of my own out here for others to study/critique/etc.
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I like it. The lack of high tech units means you can get roach burrow right after speed, which can ruin a siege tank's day. I would however like a spire into the mix(quite easily doable on 2 gas), and just 3 or 4 mutas to force the terran to get more marines and to waste minerals on turrets if he wants to push out. This also makes you completely safe against banshees unless the terran commits to vikings too.
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Just an odd idea, would it be possible to go from the tier 1.5+lair upgrades, 3 base and skip to tier 3 ?
Thinking mostly about ultras for that transition though straight to corrupter/broodlord could be fun too.
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On August 06 2010 07:03 Saracen wrote:
This is exactly how I'm playing ZvT at the moment, and it's working just fine. The only exception is if he's going extremely marauder heavy with medivacs, in which case I add mutas. It's probably worth it to note that you're going to need another hatch somewhere or else your minerals are going to soar midgame (which complements the extra early queens nicely).
Yep. He did manage to beat me with it yesterday in fact. It was a close game though, but I almost never lose TvZ. The strategy is very viable.
HOWEVER!
Get burrow. Burrowed banelings are the most cost efficient defender. They force ravens or slowpushes, are not a big investment, and can cut off choke points. It's so important to abuse them.
Another point to note: Roaches demolish tank/marine before stim is out, and roach/baneling is very effective vs tank/marine. It becomes a very control-based fight. Just spread your banelings out and run roaches in to absorb the first volleys.
And lastly, when hitting hive tech get greater spire, crackling, and ultra, and make sure you get a nydus up too or at least have drop researched. It's really hard to win off of pure ultra or pure broodlord. Having both makes a considerable difference.
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http://blip.tv/file/3948759
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Idra vs. Qxc King of the Beta Semifinals! Game 2 is very relevant to the OP and current discussion.
Summary:
+ Show Spoiler +In this Idra vs. Qxc game from the King of the Beta tournament, Idra scouts a factory from Qxc, and immediately throws down a roach warren in his main. He blunts the hellion harass with a spine crawler and a handful of roaches, and holds off Qxc's subsequent marauder/hellion push with roach/ling/queen without any of the T2 upgrades. He later transitions into Hydras and secures his third base. He destroys Qxc's mech push with roach/hydra/ling, then transitions into broodlords to win the game.
Idra certainly didn't play perfectly, but there are many learning points to take from the game.
- You have to be very active with creep expansion to even think about defending with roaches. Roaches get ripped apart by marauders without speed.
- Zerg got an extremely late lair. Idra didn't start his lair until about 6:30-6:40 in the video, just after he fends off the marauder/hellion push. With active creep expansion, T1 unit defense is very viable.
- Idra didn't get zergling speed, and I think that's a bit of a blunder looking at the first marauder/hellion push. I would have felt a bit more comfortable with zergling speed instead of a few roaches. A pack of zerglings hitting the back of the push could really help in combination with a meat shield of roaches in the front.
- Idra put down a hydra den shortly before securing his 3rd base. On a larger map, mutalisks would have probably been a better idea. Even with thors on the map, it would prevent the hellion/marauder midgame aggression because of the thors' immobility. On Steppes of War, maybe hydras are a better idea given the short rush distance.
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Can we have replays?
Not to disrespect jinjo but your claim has as little value as the ppl saying marine tank melts Z t1 when you have no replays going yet.
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I havent had the chance to play much yet (hoping to change that this weekend :>) and I'm not particularly good, but I had a ZvT placement where roach ling did well. 10 roaches with t2 upgrades and good map/tower control can pressure expansions and keep the T guessing (especially on larger maps where a slow tank push doesn't cover the natural after moving out). Spotting unseiged tanks and throwing some lings at them can really hurt as well, and you can even follow up with an attack from your main army.
Will definietly try this again mixing in more queens and banelings. Would love to see some replays showing the intial opener and lair timing.
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its actually not a bad idea to build a few mutas. you don't need 7, but just having a spire and a handful of mutas sends a terran (like me) into oh s--- armory thor turrets mode. either that, or pumping more marines than i normally would. regardless, more thors in my army (probably babysitting my base too) means less tanks in my army, and that can only be good for your zerg ground army =P
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im playing like that on blistering sands. just mass roach and speedlings and abuse his backdoor.
i did not try it on other maps to be honest just because the backdoor is not there ^^ time to test it
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This is pretty much the kind of strategy I've been working on.
I open with some early roaches (4-5 on one base) and use them to punish certain terran openings like 1:1:1, reapers, or straight factory builds. Then grab my expansion and go into speedlings/roach/baneling. I don't see the value in delaying tier 2 all that much though. Roach speed, ovie speed and baneling speed are all vital. I suppose you don't need to hit it right away, but I feel like delaying it too much is really risky.
The problem with mutas is simple... even if he does 'waste' money on thors and missiles turrets...
1. He can just stall out the game until the cost of the missile turrets is inconsequential
2. His Turrets still help vs any future doom drops or muta harass
3. Thors are still extremely combat efficient vs any Zerg ground unit when supported (especially with NP nerf).
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I still don't understand how this helps with cloaked banshees which are used a LOT as terran folllow ups to their intial harassment. Are you dropping an early evo chamber and making some AA defense? Do you try an attack before the Terran player normally has cloak finished? Part of the reason I feel like I have to rush to t2 is my ability to spawn detectors and to actually have a chance at scouting my opponent before dying to marines.
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ya I've been rolling Terrans utilizing slings and roaches. It's all about positioning. Always have a group of lings out ready to flank the Terran push.
Scout with OLs. Position OLs all over the map. It's okay to lose them, the scouting is more important. Sac one going into their base if you have to. With speed even vikings have trouble chasing them down.
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Much respect to you, and I will be bookmarking this. 
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Not sure how this works for some of you, when I try to defend with roaches while getting expansions at all, I get mass marauder medivac'd an mass speedling/bling I get a ton of hellions to cook it all up with thors an marines in the back, an if i do a mix the mass rauder with medivac with stim can just kite all my stuff. Atleast this is how it is for me, an the only thing i've found that works is all in baneling bust.
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On August 06 2010 08:04 Calamity wrote:I've posted this before but I think with this strat, you can use this tactic quite effectively with good micro and multi tasking. + Show Spoiler +Possible playing around with overlords and drops?
1. Upgrade ovie sacs and speed.
2. Load Queen.
3. Move to untaken mineral expos of opponent.
4. Ovie generate creep, Queen makes creep tumor.
5. Spread the creep tumors with the regenerating ability.
6. Repeat at all other expos.
Best used against Terran since they need to have a scan to remove the creep tumor. If they get a Raven, it's high up on the tech tree and requires a bit of gas to make as well. You can even sneak a drop into the main of the Terran, lay down 1 - 3 tumors and spread them one at a time into the Terran's base. You'll get scouting, him wasting gas for a raven, or him wasting a scan. If you spread them one at a time and you lay like 3 tumors, you can make him waste 3 scans :D
If you do this early enough, his base is gonna have a bunch creep that he can't build on. And it set you up for a drop where the creep will give you a huge advantage if he doesn't do anything about it.
The problem with this is that Terran can support themselves off of one base.
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On August 06 2010 09:01 imbored89 wrote:
Awesome OP. Has anyone tried it out? I'd love to see some replays. I'll try to get some replays of my own out here for others to study/critique/etc.
This is exactly how I play and it works. Mass T1 units roach/ling and you'll be fine, T2 units dont fare well and it's better to swarm with T1 very cost effective and works. T2 not cost effective and generally doesnt work. I usually play defense until I get ultras out. I think the OP left out a very crucial part of this matchup, scouting. First 2 overlords should be placed at the sides of a Terran's base so you can float them in and sac for info(I usually time it so i can see if a starport is going up), also a good idea to sac lings every now and then to see his army comp. This usually allows me to power drones.
general info from scouting:
more rax, bio - make more units... hes gearing up for an early push
starports with tech labs - make more queens and think about dropping some cash on spores (dont be afraid to power drones hard hes investing in air tech and most likely wont push the front with a huge ground army)
CC - power drones hard and think about taking a 3rd while teching fast to ultras(but at the same time dont skimp too much on units)
This match up is difficult, i wouldnt say it's imba. Pretty tired of all the zerg crying, even if it is that bad its still possible to win. Figure it out and stop crying.
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On August 07 2010 06:14 AnodyneSea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 09:01 imbored89 wrote:
Awesome OP. Has anyone tried it out? I'd love to see some replays. I'll try to get some replays of my own out here for others to study/critique/etc. This is exactly how I play and it works. Mass T1 units roach/ling and you'll be fine, T2 units dont fare well and it's better to swarm with T1 very cost effective and works.
I'm guessing, and it's I think it's important to make clear, you still get lair and then all the upgrades pretty quickly. This worked well for me again today against a not great terran, I scouted he was going tank/bio, and as he pushed with about 6 tanks and maybe 20 marine/maruader I finished burrowed roach movement (I could/should of got it faster). Roaches came up on the tanks unsieging as the bio ball pushed forward and got attacked by lings and a few more roaches. My build needs smoothing out and he wasn't great (I don't have enough experience to know how strong his push was compared to what it could be), but I felt safe the whole time after he opened reapers.
What should I skew my composition towards against a massive bio ball with a lot of maruaders?
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Baa?21242 Posts
I don't understand how you survive Marauder/Hellion with this. If you watch Idra vs. qxc, qxc had an insufficient force that he didn't micro, and so Idra was able to hold it off. I tried stuff similar to this and couldn't find a real answer to Hellion/Marauders.
Also I tried to play like a SC2 equivalent of the 3 Hatch Ultra build that Eva did in Broodwar, where you just stall on tier 1/1.5 units for forever until you get a bunch of Ultras, and I've gotten mixed results. Personally, I'm still not convinced of the merits of Ultralisks compared to Broodlords :3
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On August 06 2010 09:29 Sixes wrote:
Just an odd idea, would it be possible to go from the tier 1.5+lair upgrades, 3 base and skip to tier 3 ?
Thinking mostly about ultras for that transition though straight to corrupter/broodlord could be fun too.
This is my current gameplan.
After some though about the ZvT matchup, tier 2 units just aren't very good for their cost.
Mutas - way too expensive (gas-wise) for how easily they can be fended off, either by a Thor, which is very cost efficient, or by marines which cost no gas, ie they're practically free.
Hydras - they're okay, but just not too great against terran. Hellion/Tank rolls these guys pretty bad. That said, I still plan on getting them to help cope with Zerg's crippling lack of anti-air (Queen is fine defensively, but you can't have map control against air units with them)
Nydus - is okay, but from what I've seen nydus into a terran's base either results in
a) nydus is killed and opponent lols,
b) you pump your army out and he owns it with a good defensive positioning (tanks are tough to get to between buildings, etc.)
c) you base trade, but he floats away and then cleans up your army when he's done demolishing your bases
Infestor - I haven't experimented much with this guy. I've pretty much just done the standard fungal growthing. But I realized that fungal isn't really that great, and it's pretty much the same as a baneling, minus the immobilization. Banelings are cheaper unless you can get a lot of use out of one infestor.
So overall, I just decided there's nothing I really wanted to tech to in tier 2. However, ling/baneling seems to do okay, and leaves much gas open for all those upgrades, like evo chambers, burrow, overlord ups, etc.
So my current gameplan involves mass ling/baneling with very fast evo chamber (like, first 150 gas, evo placed before pool is finished). I then defend and macro with speedlings/banelings and tech straight to ultras. Roach and/or Hydra Den only as needed. If your lings have better ups than your opponent's army, they can be surprisingly effective.
So far I've only played a couple games with it, but I'm satisfied with the results so far.
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On August 06 2010 06:53 KingRajesh wrote:
Mass t1 gets melted by Siege Tanks with marine support.
The new standard for Terran is the BioMech push, with tons of marines and 3-4 tanks at around the 7-9 min mark. It sucks.
In my limited low, low chobo-diamond league experience, this isn't the case. The key is good scouting. If you catch them on the move you'll take relatively little losses. Then again, I really don't use roaches a lot (I go lingspeed -> lair -> baneling nest -> spire in that order with my gas, expanding around 22 with 6 zerglings out).
The thing is, I really, really like using mutalisks and feel naked without them (versus T). I know that getting overlord drop and speed is probably the smarter overall play (and it's necessary on LT and Kulas for the threat of thor drops).
I really should incorporate roaches into my ZvT sooner since it seems like everybody these days is a LzGamer copycat... I freaking hate reapers.
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I've seen alot of Heavy Roach play lately and they really are a beast to deal with. With upgrades they are really deadly. The think about tanks is that they are a critical mass unit. You can get far more roaches out then I can marauders/tanks if i go 1rax. If you're pushing 2-3 rax early its still gonna be trouble.
If you scout anything other than a fast air tech mass Roaches with zergling support is super strong. I think when they changed roaches to 2 supply alot of people got scared off, but they are just so strong.
-RawK Diamond Terran.
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In my experiences roaches are still great units even after the food nerf. I usually roll with mostly roach and just a few hydras. Hydras are such great DPS that even a couple backing up mostly roaches can be a pretty scary army. But yea, roaches with upgrades rock.
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On August 07 2010 06:28 Dromar wrote:
This is my current gameplan.
After some though about the ZvT matchup, tier 2 units just aren't very good for their cost.
Mutas - way too expensive (gas-wise) for how easily they can be fended off, either by a Thor, which is very cost efficient, or by marines which cost no gas, ie they're practically free.
Sure lings roach are good against what is common play by T now. But thats only cause going mutas has become pretty much standard play by Z. The whole reason I think muta play evolved was cause helion marauder totally own and omfg rape Z tier 1. Especially with some tank support.
The reason you go muta is to, force marines, force thors, force turrets in base. Just by forcing that you get T where you want him. you want less tanks and less marauders.
Since metagame has evolved so much now in some games maybe its enough to just build the spire put it smack middle of your base so that T scans it. Maybe T goes for marine, thor, tank, turrets anyway? Well then you dont even need the spire. Dont make any mutas. Just make pure t1. If terran switched to marine, thor thats really good for you with that composition. Hide the roach warren. Rally outside of base. Burrow units all around it so that a scan wont reveal what you have? could work what do I know =)
Mutas are gold in some games and absolutely needed if T likes to expand and gets a 3rd on gold. You need to be able to harass him our he will outmacro you.
This is my experience from VODs and high level replays. My own games I usually fail earlier due to I have not yet completely grasped Ts early timing attack power.
Another way to handle this is to just go tier 1. And then get infestors. Cause they can help you with the bioball, helions and marauders.
Here is an interesting replay. Brat ok staying clear of mech though. But it kinda shows that tier 1 can deal with T going marauder helion. So maybe I should stop being so sceptical
http://www.sc2win.com/starcraft-2-replays/tvz-zvt/thelittleone-vs-bratok-4/
Also game features a pretty unorthodox opening by TLO
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@icx, why would you respond to banshees with hydra when you could use muta. 3-5 mutas completly shut down banshees with queen support. and banshees also cant target overseers.
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Page 3, is OP ever gonna deliver with a replay? Tbh the style I'm using atm is not marine+tank...I don't even think that is new that's old TvZ. I'm using the newly popular hellions into maruader+thor and t1 zerg gets raped by it. Banes are not cost effective against either unit and roaches are just a bad idea....so you have zerglings to counter the thor IF you can get past the maruaders and get all around the thors.
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Anybody have a BO for this?
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I've been doing a fairly standard 15 gas 14 pool fast expand, then defending with only speedlings and speedblings to defend pushes. Then a muta fake building a spire and only two mutas. From there I tech to to ultras on 4-5 bases.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5348294/ZvT.SC2Replay
Here's the first time I've done this, both me and my opponent are horrible players.
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Yeah on second thought nvm. I'm playing my tourney match tomorrow and then watching season 4 of Dexter. So no replays till the day after tomorrow.
;D LOVE YA.
15-pool
16-expand }work your own timing for speed in here. There's precious little that Terran can put out early that absolutely requires ling speed, so delaying it in any capacity isn't the worst idea in the world.
Whatever happens, queue two queens in a row on your main hatch, and queue another on your expansion when it finishes. If you put three drones on gas when you start a queen, you have about 100 gas when the queen finishes. So take drones off gas between your speed gas and your lair gas for minerals. Lair after second queen on first hatch finishes.
This gives you the three queens for dealing with early banshees, and the lair timing is for dealing with cloak. Use the third queen's energy solely for creep expansion/transfusion, as you see fit. And I literally mean using all of it on creep tumors if you can. The speed at which the creep expands can let it get to their front door by the time you're thinking of a 2-base roach harassment, and can let you prep areas for flanking. Keep producing queens from the second hatch until you have 4-5 (general rule of thumb I keep is to have two queens creeping the map, a 5th would be if your purpose was to take a 3rd base quickly, which kickstarts the economy/spending better. With two queens and all existing tumors creeping at the same time, your scouting net becomes immense.
Use the lair for your choice of burrow/OL speed/slow drop when it finishes, dependent on strat.
And that's it really. You lay the baneling nest or roach warren depending primarily on what you scout the Terran doing, and when they're doing it. Bionic is just asking for a baneling skewed composition, whereas mech asks for roaches.
Marauder/Hellion isn't the strongest composition in the world, just send in roaches first to absorb the initial hellion burst, and flank exposed hellions with zerglings. Once hellions get surrounded by lings, their dps isn't that amazing, and the marauders crumple to more lings. It's not that strong and it eats at a Terran's ability to do anything else because of how mineral heavy it is.
Mass cloaked banshee is fucking retarded, but it nonetheless needs to be accounted for. Honestly just start massing queens if they start massing banshees. You've already got 4-5 on the field in the first place, so snowballing isn't that hard. Queens can be focused, true, but they're probably more efficient AA than hydras in the first place. A ball of queens just isn't approachable by a ball of banshees. They get outranged and take two volleys for every one they launch. The only difference between your retarded armies is that the Zerg one doesn't take gas and synergizes well with any composition, so you're pretty much free to tech whatever at that point. Mutas would be lolzy.
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On August 07 2010 18:38 JinjoBust wrote:
Yeah on second thought nvm. I'm playing my tourney match tomorrow and then watching season 4 of Dexter. So no replays till the day after tomorrow.
;D LOVE YA.
15-pool
16-expand }work your own timing for speed in here. There's precious little that Terran can put out early that absolutely requires ling speed, so delaying it in any capacity isn't the worst idea in the world.
Whatever happens, queue two queens in a row on your main hatch, and queue another on your expansion when it finishes. If you put three drones on gas when you start a queen, you have about 100 gas when the queen finishes. So take drones off gas between your speed gas and your lair gas for minerals. Lair after second queen on first hatch finishes.
This gives you the three queens for dealing with early banshees, and the lair timing is for dealing with cloak. Use the third queen's energy solely for creep expansion/transfusion, as you see fit. And I literally mean using all of it on creep tumors if you can. The speed at which the creep expands can let it get to their front door by the time you're thinking of a 2-base roach harassment, and can let you prep areas for flanking. Keep producing queens from the second hatch until you have 4-5 (general rule of thumb I keep is to have two queens creeping the map, a 5th would be if your purpose was to take a 3rd base quickly, which kickstarts the economy/spending better. With two queens and all existing tumors creeping at the same time, your scouting net becomes immense.
Use the lair for your choice of burrow/OL speed/slow drop when it finishes, dependent on strat.
And that's it really. You lay the baneling nest or roach warren depending primarily on what you scout the Terran doing, and when they're doing it. Bionic is just asking for a baneling skewed composition, whereas mech asks for roaches.
Marauder/Hellion isn't the strongest composition in the world, just send in roaches first to absorb the initial hellion burst, and flank exposed hellions with zerglings. Once hellions get surrounded by lings, their dps isn't that amazing, and the marauders crumple to more lings. It's not that strong and it eats at a Terran's ability to do anything else because of how mineral heavy it is.
Mass cloaked banshee is fucking retarded, but it nonetheless needs to be accounted for. Honestly just start massing queens if they start massing banshees. You've already got 4-5 on the field in the first place, so snowballing isn't that hard. Queens can be focused, true, but they're probably more efficient AA than hydras in the first place. A ball of queens just isn't approachable by a ball of banshees. They get outranged and take two volleys for every one they launch. The only difference between your retarded armies is that the Zerg one doesn't take gas and synergizes well with any composition, so you're pretty much free to tech whatever at that point. Mutas would be lolzy.
thanks for a more detailed explanation. I still feel this is pretty standard play from Z. I do not get that many queens though will try that out. The one thing I think is different (and I guess the sole reason for you posting this) is not getting t2 units or their tech at all. So you have a lot of gas freed up for getting upgrades for t1 instead. Spire and 5 mutas is 700 gas after all. You could spend that on OL speed, OL drop, burrow, roach speed, roach burrow move and still have some to spare =) Going hydra for AA would mean smth like maybe 350 gas invested which is till more then drop tech or full roach tech.
Replays are welcome when you have the time =)
I also think throwing down a spire and wait for T to scan - then cancel it could be a viable thing to incorporate in this play? Since every response to that is beneficial for your t1 army?
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On August 07 2010 20:16 Izzachar wrote:
thanks for a more detailed explanation. I still feel this is pretty standard play from Z. I do not get that many queens though will try that out. The one thing I think is different (and I guess the sole reason for you posting this) is not getting t2 units or their tech at all. So you have a lot of gas freed up for getting upgrades for t1 instead. Spire and 5 mutas is 700 gas after all. You could spend that on OL speed, OL drop, burrow, roach speed, roach burrow move and still have some to spare =) Going hydra for AA would mean smth like maybe 350 gas invested which is till more then drop tech or full roach tech.
Replays are welcome when you have the time =)
I also think throwing down a spire and wait for T to scan - then cancel it could be a viable thing to incorporate in this play? Since every response to that is beneficial for your t1 army?
My issue with that spire trick, and with everyone who's suggested it is that it isn't thinking far enough. If you're clever enough to think of Terrans falling victim to an otherwise standard scout timing for mutas, you'd have to think at least one Terran would be smart enough to account for same. Personally I feel that Terran doesn't really need to scan, especially with their myriad other options to scout the opponent (That don't cost 270+ minerals each time). They could make a reaper, use a banshee w/ cloak specifically as an invisible scout, get a sense of what you're doing from hellion harass. There's all these things. Just because you haven't seen someone make use of a tool, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Oh and on a completely separate note, the extra queens deal with the hellions directly. While going pure-speedling early on, I've oftentimes never even built one spine crawler. I just micro the drones away and A-move the queens along optimal paths. People should just do that period, you can hold off 4 hellions like this without losing more then 2-3 drones.
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Been doing something in the style of this lately, though I failed to foresee thee need of queens. Anways great great post, and well explained and going into good enough detail ! More posts like this !
Oh Replay please <3
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What Build Orders do you usually start with when going for this strategy?
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I'd just like to point out that you absolutely have to tech to Lair at least just for Overseers (even if you make no other T2 units). If you tried going no Lair 'til 3rd base against any decent T you'd be eating cloaked banshees to the face in no time.
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I might be missing the point of this, but what's new or different about this? Everybody tries to get 2 base and secure a third, and everybody agrees that zerg has a fragile early game vT and not that good of a midgame unles he's ahead. And everybody knows and agrees about the usefulness of creeptumors and then anti-air purpose of the queens. Hydras are very bad against terran, nobody goes for that except a few scenarios, so yeah im sitting here and dont understand what's new about your "strategy".
Zergs tend to have problems on maps where they canot take a safe 2nd base early on: Delta Qadron, XelNaga's Cavern, Desert Oasis (really wide open natural bases impossible to be covered with crawlers, not close enough to the base to protect if from reapers etc) Lost Temple (cliff abuse) etc. You might want to come up with sg to that.
yes many zergs play differently, but probably just as many play in a way you suggest, if the situation allows it, which most of the times doesnt given the current map pool.
Oh sorry, i get it, no lair till 3rd base, now that's new
And very bady in 95% of the situations
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Awesome post. This is exactly how I play ZvT except I never considered queens. Fucking brilliant addition. THANK YOU!
Please please please post some replays of this.
Just some thoughts from my own experience using a similar build to this: the bio mech push terran does can be shut down pretty hard with roaches banelings and some speedlings. A pretty key upgrade for roaches at the mid game is burrow move and I would also advocate getting drop pretty soon after maybe your third base.
Drop lets you baneling drop the tanks AND his mineral line. Really useful.
Again please post some replays.
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i really liked the thoughtprocess and i really have to agree!
Lets face it, except for some very special occasions mutas and hydras just suck ass against terran.
So we need more roaches/lings/blings and to fend of air we need queens!
I totally took this concept in my game and i made it 3-0 today vs other diamond terrans (where i normally lose a ton) most of my games were very long, one of the wins was even on kulas ravine which im especially proud of
My approach included a 14 pool / 16 hatch, relatively quick speedlings, and then getting a banelingnest and roachwarren pretty soon.
On Kulas i couldnt scout at all, so i was surprised a bit by 2 banshees but i had 2 queens to fend it off at my natural (+1 in my main and one more building at the nat), and thanks to those queens i also had creep everywhere. I put up some sporecrawlers and one overseer and that was good enough for air in that game. With the baneling nest i was able to pressure him quite well, i got through his wallin and killed 2 tanks with speedlings, but it kept him on his toes more then beeing gamedeciding. I got a spire eventually and made like 5 mutas so he built turrets everywhere, and also i could scout all the expansions on the map with patrol mutas. Once i got the 3rd and the 4th at gold up, i was just a matter of time until my ultras ran over him.
Another game on steppes of war: here i like to scout with the 8th drone to harrass his supply depot worker, which gets terran totally out of their timing usually. Got one scv kill before my drone died aswell, and then i was easily able to hold off the obligatory hellions with 2 spines and alot of speedlings and 3 queens. I figured he might panic into banshees since i though i was well ahead, so i spent 300 minerals on 2 sporecrawlers which i never needed in the end. I got both roachupgrades as soon as the lair finished and burrow, to harrass a bit and keep mapcontrol. With no money spent on hydraden or spire, i could get all those nice upgrades and again just take 3rd and 4th and 5th at free will, doomdropping him every now and then or greeting his pushes out of his natural with 2-3 fungal growths.
man, ill never make lair for hydras or mutas every again!
3-4 queens are so awesome, just for the creep everywhere alone, and the quick saturation of new expos.
Roaches are the best zerg unit there is vs terran, so both upgrades + burrow + creep are just awesome. And of course ultras and broodlords are known to be the GG unit, if theres enough money behind them 
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i expect your replays, its seems very smilar to my playstyle !! the only problem its against mass banshees, if they catch u with ur pants down they abuse you..
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Good Read. Most of it is already known , but much is new as well. Would gladly watch some replays :D
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Ok, I've changed up my ZvT a bit. Pure roach/ling/baneling doesn't have the DPS required to deal with a mid/lategame marine/marauder/thor ball, no matter how many you have. You need infestors. The key is to NP the thors and have them kill eachother. That way, your units don't spend unnecessary time attacking the thors and the thors don't damage your army (they do ridiculous DPS). Also, if they have banshees, you can use infested terrans.
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Lately I think my play has been like your new play Saracan.
Right now my ZvT playbook is this...
14 pool
17 gas
Queen + 4x lings -> Roach Warren -> 2nd queen -> 4-6 roaches
I use the 2x queen for any run bys while getting tumors started and the roaches pressure the wall to force the Terran to make some units
I then follow up with an expansion + ling speed -> lair.
From there I have the mid-game that you're describing, infestor/roach/ling/bling.
The only thing is it's worthless.
The Terran, on seeing your opening, has the option to go banshees/vikings in time for the mid game if they don't see you preparing air defense. If they do they stay with their mech or bio path and push on your weaker ground army. You can get a 3rd queen out in time maybe, but really that's about it. Any more than 3 queens and you won't really have lair in time to deal with the threat of cloak.
I feel like 90% good about the opening, but don't know how to bend it to account for air without having it fall apart to anything else.
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just make 1 sporecrawler in each base?
when you dont make hydra/muta youll need the evochamber anyways to spend your gas on upgrades :p
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On August 08 2010 07:27 Viruuus wrote:
just make 1 sporecrawler in each base?
when you dont make hydra/muta youll need the evochamber anyways to spend your gas on upgrades :p
Spore crawlers are good vs banshees (obviously), but they won't do much vs Vikings which can still pick off your OL's from beyond their range, though when it's just 1 viking you can queen defend of course.
Either way a big part of the problem is scouting it. I need to hit the Starport when..
-It has a tech lab on it
-A reactor and only 1 rax down
-spot vikings coming out of it/hanging around.
If the starport is there and there's more than 1 rax it might be medivacs for bio.
If the starport is there and naked it might be for a tank or Thor drop (I suppose spore crawlers would still help here)
The other hard part I'm unsure how to deal with is how do I know when to commit and when to stop on air defense. If I see 1 banshee do I just sit on one spore crawler or is he going to pump more? Same with vikings.
It's a real shame to have to sac 2 overlords (provided vikings don't snipe them before they scout) within 40-60 seconds of each other =/. Well overseer works too.
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Updated post, so bumping for that =P.
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Good write up, easy to read and great information :D
I've been having a lot of success using nothing but Roaches, Speedlings (Banelings when and if necessary) and Queens for base Defending, they seem to counter any Terran Unit composition quite nicely, and are very cheap. But as Logo said the only real problem is when the Terran player goes Viking it's very hard to defend your overlords due to their range.
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I must say zerg players can play safely in order to secure the third expansion but just the lack of opening options available to Z in a ZvT that doesn't involve all-in is bothersome. Have you thought about using speed-banelings to counter terran infantry? Or does that not work?
I'm a protoss player but I'm highly interested in the ZvT metagame :3
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I almost always play like this, and it works great.
Two things I'd like to add however
1) like any build scouting is key. The 2 things that can cause problems for me are banshees and preigniter helions. Regular ones are pushovers but the +10 vs light makes lings obsolete and banelings explode before reaching anything. Banshees arent actually too bad, but you do have to transition out when you start seeing them.
2) When my lair finishes (i think i get my lair later then the OP suggested) I immediately morph in two overseers, they are great scouts and now i can delay any tech by 60 seconds.
on other note I find zling speed not as necessary as some do so i usually opt for more minerals by delaying my extractor until after my pool is up
edit: if they dont have a raven yet (likely) delaying it with contaminate basically makes any kind of mech push impossible since you have burrow-move roaches
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Thanks, this was very informative. Can't wait for the replays :D
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My main concern with this build is total loss of scouting due to no air units. This build is easily scouted and any Terran in his right mind will go air, at least Vikings to keep your ovies in your queen defended base. And at that stage you lose total vision of what he's up to. I always sacrifice ovies to see what's up and I feel that just saying screw air control until a 3rd is dangerous.
And the whole queen ball idea is weak IMO because of the lack of mobility. Basically your giving your opponent to harass, stop you from expanding, etc.
Basically, I think your relying to much on the idea that the Terran will not adapt to your build, will not abuse your immobility air wise, and just continue with some regular stuff. This build is too easily scoutable for this to be true.
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I've tried something like this a few times before and it seems pretty dependent on scouting, to make it work I've always had to get overlord speed quickly and sac a few to constantly check his unit composition
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Hey all.
Right after I read this thread, I hopped on battle.net and played a few games, and figured I'd implement these strategies as best I can in my play.
The results are great. Instead of holding around teching to T2 units that get wrecked by the terran ball, I felt a lot more free using my T1 units (with T2 upgrades) and then transitioning to T2 units when my economy was in place.
Disclaimer: I am a fairly average platinum player. I try to play my best and always keep up on everything I need too, but I still have much to work on, so I ask your forgiveness in some of my non-standard and mis-timed play.
Game 1
KlausRaynor(me) v daxile
Diamond player with a decent amount of games under his belt. I go for a 14 hatch -> 15pool opening. I do make quite a few mistakes and actually kinda "cheat" by using a nydus canal (hey this can work great too!) Decided for the nydus because just as I was about to scout his base with my overlord, I realized I could plop a nydus in the back of his base and work some damage in from there. Seems to have worked, gg.
Game 2
KlausRaynor v Jay
This game is a bit more standard, in that I take him head on. I go 14pool -> 16expo then get a roach warren as lair is morphing, and a baneling nest shortly after that (note also I wouldn't recommend following these builds exactly, they are extremely flawed and not as thought out as they should be)
Again forgive my small micro and macro mistakes, but with this I am able to fend off a small reaper harass, as well as repeated marauder/hellion attacks at my door (I build two spine crawlers to help with defense).
hopefully more people will submit higher level games to supplement these few examples. any critique on my play is fine, but I more than likely already know most of the flaws in my game. These are used explicitly to reinforce the fact that I felt a lot more comfortable against terran using these builds.
Take from these replays what you will.
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This thread needs some high level replays already.
I still feel forced to make mutas way to often.
Marauder/helion pushes I fear so much. Marauders own spines, marauders are cost efficient vs roaches, helions are cost efficient vs lings.
Also terran has way better eco in the start of the game thanks to mules and not having to use larvae for army.
First, stop thinking in hard counters. When e-famous people like Day9 start making incomprehensible noises whenever the word is mentioned, it's time to stop using it
Day9 says there are no hard counters. But man if someone puts pressure on you with an army that is more efficient vs yours while having better economy the only way you should come out on top in that situation is being a superior player. Or is this tactic relying on getting a perfect surround on his force in the battle to have a chance at winning and if we fail once we loose? What if the T actually makes an effort and also micros his units? Rauders shell kite roaches. Sure lings can surround and keep them in place but what are the helions used for? Getting helions surrounded bu roaches sounds silly, and getting surround with speedlings is probably as easy as avoid getting surrounded by the helions.
To overcome this I feel mutas are my only choice as they are very efficient vs marauders and helions.
Naturally if T goes something like marine thor to start with its very easy to deal with. But why would they if they scout you on pure t1 units?
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Muta imo are a great choice, and I see nothing wrong with that transition. What can Terran do then? They can go heavier marine (baneling'd) they can supplement that with tanks (immobile, and you have baneling drops/muta to take care of them), and they can build a lot of static D (you now own the map).
If you fight his army at your static D, you'll come out the victor, which teching to T2. Of course it's somewhat map and skill dependent, but your economy should be fairly strong at this point and you should have the resources and larva to fend off his marauder/hellion till your muta come.
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Well, a key assumption I make is that the zerg playing this build is good at his micro. Personally I always take micro challenges in stride. I'm always confident that I'm the better microer, and I would carry that confidence into any game. If the enemy was better at micro in a situation that you should have been, then he's a better player and deserves his advantage. Always aspire to be better, on all fronts.
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Brrrr. Theory and reality are different things. Everyone knows you have to survive most of the pushes with roach/ling/bling combinations. But as long as it's not 800p+ zerg claiming you can do this with 50%+ success against top terrans, I don't buy it. I have too much experience of the matchup by playing very much like this, and it doesn't feel like I'm playing exactly even with equally skilled terrans. By no means are there huge imbalances, but it's not absolutely even. Terran army is simply more powerful until ultras pop, and maps' minisizes capitalize the difference. Issues is mostly related to maps really, complaints about matchup would be reduced a LOT if maps were bigger and wider like proleague maps are in SC1.
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Do you guys add an additional hatch as soon as your minerals pop over 300 and you have 0 larvae, or? Doing this build i really felt like i didn't have enough larvae to support these lowcost units once i got decent larvae saturation, how many hatches do you guys suggest i have on 2base?
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On August 09 2010 05:01 Izzachar wrote:
Or is this tactic relying on getting a perfect surround on his force in the battle to have a chance at winning and if we fail once we loose? What if the T actually makes an effort and also micros his units? Rauders shell kite roaches. Sure lings can surround and keep them in place but what are the helions used for? Getting helions surrounded bu roaches sounds silly, and getting surround with speedlings is probably as easy as avoid getting surrounded by the helions.
Er, have you played broodwar? Getting epic surrounds with ling or lurker/ling was really the only thing stopping you from getting rolled in standard TvZ.
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I'm not good enough to provide any meaningful replays of this, but I'll definitely try it out in my next few games. To be honest, I don't see it working (maybe because I'm bad), but I do so hope it does.
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terrans super op its ridiculous. Zerg is no longer the swarm Now it's just a matter of "How can i make his army less efficient, so his equal numbers and stronger units dont absolutely rape mine"
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yeah imo TvZ isn't imba, remember BW, ZvP? Without Nal_rA and Bisu inventing Forge FE and Corsair play, it would still be imbalanced. You never know, after a few years the standard ZvT BO would be Mass queens into fast infestors (idk just for example).
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Anticipating those replays. This seems like a very good idea, hydras are pretty lackluster vs terran and it feels like I only get them to be safe from banshee surprise.
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As a T player the tier1 macro sounds like a good idea to even out the score in ZvT. It'll become a micro game of marauding roaches and flaming lings while avoiding blings.
BUT i think I see a loophole. If T can 1/1/1-tech to viking he can hunt OLs all day. Your 6 queens wont be able to protect against it except if you sacrifice ALL scouting and camp your OL in base (and they can still be sniped there).
EDIT: ok you'll still have map control but I think it's a big sacrifice anyways. You wont see his unit composition...
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On August 10 2010 17:32 Cibron wrote:
As a T player the tier1 macro sounds like a good idea to even out the score in ZvT. It'll become a micro game of marauding roaches and flaming lings while avoiding blings.
BUT i think I see a loophole. If T can 1/1/1-tech to viking he can hunt OLs all day. Your 6 queens wont be able to protect against it except if you sacrifice ALL scouting and camp your OL in base (and they can still be sniped there).
EDIT: ok you'll still have map control but I think it's a big sacrifice anyways. You wont see his unit composition...
Early on you need very simplistic scouting, you basically need to know 1: Where is he? 2: What's his unit mix? 3: When is he attacking?
Drone scout gives you #1 and part of #2, zerglings peeking his ramp/nat should give you most of #2. Only sac ovies to scout if you're reasonably suspicious. If you can confirm at least 2 rax and some marauders, chances are it's not a big thor drop play(etc etc, this is where your experience comes in, I can't list them all). #3 you get from the creep highway.
More scouting becomes important in the late game, past 3 bases. Pretty much all T2 transitions are AA to some extent, so it sets you up nicely for map scouting at that point.
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Hm... I actually kinda transfer into this after i open 1 Base Muta. But you don't need to sacrifice Overlords and have no problems with Viking-Harass and Banshee's.
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Hey Jinjo !
We need replays ! <3
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On August 10 2010 16:43 TriniMasta wrote:
yeah imo TvZ isn't imba, remember BW, ZvP? Without Nal_rA and Bisu inventing Forge FE and Corsair play, it would still be imbalanced. You never know, after a few years the standard ZvT BO would be Mass queens into fast infestors (idk just for example).
Thing is there is so much potential in Ts play that we do not see cause they are to used to easy wins and do not need to get inventive with their play.
The fact that Z needs one more base then T means Z will be spread out. Way open for drops and harass during the entire game. But T has so good chances of winning by just massing a ball so they do not even try stuff like this. If Z got dropped by helions, 1-2 cloaked banshees, a nuke in your base or smth else during an attack and harassed not only in the first 5min of the game I think T would push his advantage way way more. And that would make Zs base advantage less then 0. And T is still safe turtling and massing up his ball.
As I see it there is waaaay more room for improvement in Ts play vs Z then the other way around.
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Ok. Scouting can be solved one way or the other. Sacrificing OL for 100minerals isn't worse than doing a scanner sweep
But T will be able to scout unhindered. Z will be prone to drops and harass by reapers and hellions. If Z can defend until tier2 they will own the macro game. There are pros and cons with every build I guess...
I hope to see more of this on the ladder. Now all I see is gg after failed bling busts.
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Bumping because I updated, there's replay #1 peepz.
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This is a rage post reflecting RL annoyance. Plz ignore it.
Let me tell you what I saw in this replay.
First off 3 rax reaper requires very good micro to pull off - something this terran did not have - he made so many mistakes (like leaving 3 doing nothing while attacking with 3). Also when he saw you had a giant roach ball instead of starting switching to marauders he built 6 more reapers. Building that many reapers and doing nothing (well he killed 2? drones) sets terran behind immensely. In the end he just let them sit in middle of map and just lost all of them cause he didn't tend to them.
You have trouble spending your minerals why? Well first off you skip 2 gas for a long time and miss many inject. 2nd you are building t1 units. With 2 fully saturated bases you can't produce enough t1 to keep your money down you need a third to produce units from / get gas from if you wanna play like this (but I wanna add you werent even close to being saturated).
Miserable scouting by both of you.
You are so stubborn in your t1 mentality that you failed to tech switch when he went 100% marauder to counter you roach. Your opponent forgot stim.... I mean lol. As if that wouldn't have turned the outcome? He also didn't have shells. Kite your roaches to death? But 2nd time around you get steam rolled cause your macro is lacking, you do nto scout, you are not saturated and you do not tech switch accordingly.. And this is even when T did such a uber fail opening. If he just opened helion marauder instead of wasting all that time and gas on reapers it would just be GG way way way sooner and there would be no timing window for you. There was now as his opening was uber fail. But if he had made marauders instantly upon seeing roaches I very much doubt you could have done anything to his base.
If you actually had went baneling/ling/muta or switched into it you would have dominated the game.
So your intended "this is how you could play zerg vs terran replay" only really shows exactly how fragile it is (even when the Ts opening is such a huge fail) and shows exactly why mutas and hydras are a good choice in this MU (at times).
I'm not saying that speedling and roach opening do not have their place. Of course they have. Of course roach/(ling) timing attacks could be viable. They are in ZvP as well (vs FE).
But something that annoys with all this is that; There are ppl on forum that are obviously not in diamond or are is as low in diamond as I am (which is ~250 rating) (I play terrible quite often, not consider myself even slightly good, Im clueless in many games) come on forums and post their guides on how to beat terran. Cause it got them into plat or low diamond. But does this mean that you have an answer to mech terran? No it does not!
In everything below diamond the only concept you need to master is keeping macro up and not building wrong units. If you start to get those 2 right you will get to plat/diamond EASILY. Just look at your own macro! Its severely lacking! and I bet you are in platinum yourself. If you advance to diamond it only means you have good macro and has started getting a game sense. Not that you come up with a strategy that works that everyone else in mid high diamond has failed to try and make work. I do not think you realize how big of difference there is even between 100 diamond and 350, its huge. I own everyone below 200 but get my ass kicked as soon as I approach 300. I mean im 100% confident I could win all matches in gold with only ling/queen. But that doesn't mean its a valid strategy.
And it takes 2 weeks to get a replay that shows the strategy failing. Seriously? What is your intention with this? Did you expect to revolutionize the MU with your limited experience in the lower leagues?
Saying that I who are in diamond should stop QQ about Z and learn to play I find a bit funny coming from someone that clearly has less experience. Ok you are right I should stop QQ cause that doesn't add anything to the discussion.
And I totally respect your attempt to bring something to the table. But please realize that what works in plat doesn't have to work in diamond. Baneling busting is a good example here of a strategy that works in lower leagues but is a huge fail in diamond.
In my eyes what needs to happen to this MU is that Z develops a really strong timing window for when terran is expoing or teching to hard, that we can punish this (roach could very well be an option here). Or a solid defense to keep 2-3 bases running while being able to harass terran into 1-2 bases. Ppl that are high end diamond might already do this. But for us lower ranked players (ooh that sound patronizing) I really want something more solid to focus my game on. As it is now there are loads of different ideas and strategies floating around, 1 base muta, 2 base muta, roach, ling,ultra,infest etc etc. All can probably work in the hands of a solid player. But not in the way spamming helions/marauders and maybe thors of 1-2 base works for T.
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Are you serious? he admits in his OP that he's a weak player, but the strategy itself is supported by solid reasoning so you can't criticise that. Why does it matter what level the player is as long as the logic behind the strategy he's suggesting is solid?
I can vouch from a 500~ point diamond Zerg point of view (which is meaningless, but whatever) that this strategy and the logic behind makes perfect sense and is completely practical. I'm actually really comfortable with this style, and so are various others in this thread it would be seem. You're right that macro augments a players skill like nothing else and is the main thing people should focus on, but I don't see how that has any relevance. He wasn't asking for advice.
I totally respect your attempt to bring something to the table. But please realize that what works in plat doesn't have to work in diamond.
you're a 250 diamond player yourself, the exact same as the OP (sc2ranks.com), but you know better? lol gtfo
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Izzachar, I wouldn't be able to answer you directly without sounding rude and vain, so I'll state my facts and be gone.
-The strategy was played to a degree that showcased it's effectiveness within an acceptable margin of error.
-Winning or losing have no impact on the viability of a strategy, as stated the goal was to make it to three bases, wherein multiple viable transitions are possible.
-Scouting was bad because it was a practice match, we both knew what we were doing because it was stated before hand.
-Micro of that fight: With stim and concussive shells you can kite, but my ideal engagement would have been a zergling flank to prevent just that. Roach dps comes in punches, and gets a lot of power from out numbering the enemy. In this case a stim reduces their health, and the auto-targetting from my roach volleys would kill more units. This trades off well with the stim in terms of fight outcome.
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i highly doubt that the healthpoints lost would make up for the additional damage from Marauders... If it would be that way no one would EVER stim when not having a ton of Medivacs because it would be stupid.
In General i agree with you:
Roach/Ling/Bling from 2 Base is better than Hydras of 2 base than Hydras... Hell, Roaches are not "THAT" bad against Marauders.
But i disagree on one thing:
Wanting to utilise mainly T1 units does not mean you need to wait any longer for going T2, in fact i tech faster when i want to stick with T1 units for longer.
Reasoning?
1: You can reasonably produce T1 units from 1 base, you still need your expansion rather quick but when not wanting to go straight into Mass-Hydra or Muta the 3d and 4th Gas are just not as important, this also gives you an easyer time against harass.
2: Just drop down your Hydraden when you reach T2 and produce a "few" hydras, They are awesome at dealing with low numbers of Hellions, Reapers and Banshee's, when fighting this units you want two things: DPS and RANGE, Hydras, even in very low amounts, deliver that way better than Roaches, Speedlings and Queens (but getting one extra Queen just for Tumors is worth it anyway).
3 and most important: Roach and Banelingspeed are just sooo critical, you want them asap. Slow Banelings and Roaches offcreep are basically worthless. These 2 upgrades allow you to punish a Terran that loses a fight, instead of him retreating to safety whiteout worries (except if you still have Speedlings which often tend to be dead after a fight while your slow-Roaches still stand and are unable to follow the remainings of your enemies force).
Just try Stalker vs Roaches with and whiteout upgrade, it's basically the same in ZvT against Marauder/Marine just even better.
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On August 11 2010 05:47 Izzachar wrote:
UNADULTERATED RAGE.
Congrats on pointing out all the flaws of the OP's play, but have you done anything constructive to the discussion at hand? This thread is a discussion of strategy, not individual replays, and despite whatever the OP did, using T1 units to defend an early push is completely sound logic endorsed and performed by many top players.
In fact, there's nothing in your post that would suggest that his strategy was bad. All the flaws you pointed out in the OP's play are easy fixes in play that prove this strategy's viability and solidity against early terran aggression.
So please, if you're not willing to do anything constructive for this thread, take your attitude and "wisdom" somewhere else.
Or as setanta wisely said:
On August 11 2010 06:00 setanta wrote:you're a 250 diamond player yourself, the exact same as the OP (sc2ranks.com), but you know better? lol gtfo
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roach/ling/baneling seems to be really the way to go these days. Muta/Hydra are far squisher than the T1. Hydras die to tanks/marines and mutas die to marines/thors both much worse than roaches vs maraudres when he can't just kite you to death (on creep, or have lings to surround, or burrow under him)
T1-->T3 is how i play, except fast lair for scouting anyway, and i need drop/speed for baneling drops.
In fact really I don't think like that at all. I think units, I always have lair in time for any "pushes" but i consider hydra/muta just to be weak, with ling/baneling is really good and roaches are solid opener to defend hellions/reapers with very little if any losses, and also decent against everything but marauders.
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On August 11 2010 06:03 JinjoBust wrote:
Izzachar, I wouldn't be able to answer you directly without sounding rude and vain, so I'll state my facts and be gone.
-The strategy was played to a degree that showcased it's effectiveness within an acceptable margin of error.
-Winning or losing have no impact on the viability of a strategy, as stated the goal was to make it to three bases, wherein multiple viable transitions are possible.
-Scouting was bad because it was a practice match, we both knew what we were doing because it was stated before hand.
-Micro of that fight: With stim and concussive shells you can kite, but my ideal engagement would have been a zergling flank to prevent just that. Roach dps comes in punches, and gets a lot of power from out numbering the enemy. In this case a stim reduces their health, and the auto-targetting from my roach volleys would kill more units. This trades off well with the stim in terms of fight outcome.
Im not trying to start a flame war. I was rude in my initial post so kudos to you for keeping it clean sorry for my outburst.
I try and be more constructive.
I think you should make a practice game where the T does not go 3 rax reaper as its a very difficult opening unless you can micro very well. And it gives no pay out if you mass that amount of roaches and make him practicly waste 600gas. So it gives your opening an huge advantage playing like this
You are correct about the fight vs the marauders.
I still really like to see it deal with helion marauder until you get 3 bases. Does it keep enough map control vs igniter helions for you to take 3 bases? Does it stand up to timing attacks?
I really feel that you want crawlers when you FE to hold off 1 base terran timing attacks. But I might be wrong here. Maybe ling roach is enough to hold on, macro up enough to secure a third.
Again sorry for the outburst. I apologize
In fact, there's nothing in your post that would suggest that his strategy was bad. All the flaws you pointed out in the OP's play are easy fixes in play that prove this strategy's viability and solidity against early terran aggression.
If marauders steam roll it, and not teching to mutas to solve that, before taking a 3rd it is bad. But if it can hold its own until 3 base t3 goodness that its all good. But that replay doesn't show that as the T wastes 600gas or more on 12+ reapers.
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I'd also suggest infestors between getting the t2 upgrades and setting up a 3rd base for ultras. Especially if the terran is focusing more on bio. You need a infestation pit anyway.
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Oh I definitely intend to get some replays against the more standard timing pushes, I just got moon-eyed at the thought of wrapping my head around that new opening for T. Might skip the Thor drop one, since I think it's just spines--->roaches--->drop--->macro roaches/win game. I'll see about the hellion/tank push and hellion/marauder push, especially for the latter's micro. I also want to get some against different banshee builds.
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This seems interesting and I'd be willing to try it out in some practice matches if anyone is interested. Jinjo if you'd like help brainstorming I play zerg and am looking for new openings as well (Hit me up online Clockwerk - 226).
A little bit more on topic, I think this build, or rather the thinking behind it, highlights some important points for zerg. Yes we can get t1 out very fast and in great numbers, but they are rather frail and the upgrades for tier 1 lie in tier 2 tech. Therefore instead of trying to hold on with t1 while getting an acceptable t2 army, we can find ways to buff up our t1 units en masse and utilize timing windows (should we discover them ;p) to become more effective in the early game. Of course this is major theorycrafting but I think it will do well to break the mold of "OH GOD MY UNITS SUCK I HAVE TO GET TO T3 FFFFUUUUU-"
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If anyone watched the recent Day[9] Daily (#162), it shows a pretty interesting game between TLO and Brat_OK that can illustrate some important points about T1 defense. While terran does go for an early expand build, TLO's (Zerg) play shows some options against mid-game bio pushes.
Just a couple of points from the game:
1) As Day9 notes, Zerg's midgame strategy is primarily zergling, infester, creep. The primary advantages of using T1 units are mobility over raw DPS, and using creep/infesters complements these advantages perfectly. Creep allows your T1 army to keep map control through increased speed, while infestors both stall pushes and enable T1 units to surround and flank.
2) Zerg uses mutalisks and zergling runbys to keep the terran army in its base. It's important to understand that "defending" is not limited to an army vs. army engagment. T1 units, especially zerglings, are great at backstabbing, eliminating reinforcements, and stalling for time against pushes. Mutalisks are another unit great at keeping contain. They don't do much damage, but they stall for expansions and unit production.
So while Brat_OK vs. TLO was very mid-game oriented, we can adapt many of TLO's techniques into Zerg play against early aggression.
- Creeping the map very aggressively in the early game pays dividends when engaging a terran bio-ball. Flanks and surrounds make a zerg army exponentially more effective. Getting a very early 3rd queen (for creep tumoring) out of the natural hatchery would be very helpful for early-game defense.
- Backstabbing with a small group (10-12) of zerglings can be an excellent way to contain terran in the early game (this was also rather common in broodwar). Because of zergling speed, zerglings can attack Terran workers and depots, and make it back to the zerg base in time to provide a very useful flank attack against the terran push.
- Rushing to Infestors probably isn't a practical solution against an early game push, but since most T1 defenses will rely heavily on zerglings, banelings seem like a very supply/cost effective solution to deal with the bio-ball early game.
- Infestors and Mutalisks can be a great transition tech bridging T1 to T3. The goal of these units are to stall for time: get a 3rd/4th base up to get the economy for T3 tech.
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People have been reading this thread cause I got destroyed by mass lings/roaches trying to push FE zergs yesterady.
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I think Baneling drops are an excellent aid to transitioning out of the midgame. You will already have a Baneling nest, and Overlord upgrades are practically mandatory once you've got two bases saturated. A good baneling drop from two speed Overlords (two Overlords because they drop two Banelings instantly, and it takes two to kill workers) can wipe out an entire worker line at very low cost (assuming you already have the upgrades).
One problem is that sometimes passive Terran players rage so hard after a Baneling drop that they just 1a your base with all of their Tanks, Thors, and Marines... And that can kill you, since you haven't been preparing for such a huge spike in aggression. :|
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This sounds like an excellent strat. Thanks OP, I've been having major troubles against Terran, I'll definitely start praccing this right away.
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I think early marauder push will kill you as you will not have speed lings and roaches die to marauders.
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On August 12 2010 18:06 -Archangel- wrote:
I think early marauder push will kill you as you will not have speed lings and roaches die to marauders.
It doesn't. Marauders take time+money to build up. Early pushes should be scouted and ling speed researched appropriately. There isn't really a distinct vulnerability to it. Any perceived things that break it just need small adjustments. These adjustments you need to figure out for yourself.
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On August 12 2010 18:06 -Archangel- wrote:
I think early marauder push will kill you as you will not have speed lings and roaches die to marauders.
I had a guy go 3-4rax MM on me on Scrap Station... He had units killing the rocks immediately, and pushed into my base with Marauders and Marines. Mass Speedlings took him out fine- if they go Marauders, they won't have enough Marines to take them all out. And when he DOES get enough Marines.... Banelings start to become really effective.
Bio play is unexpected, and throws you for a loop, but it is also very counterable.
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Seems pretty strong. I really like the idea, as tier two seems to melt to Terran.
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Well I'm in the same boat you are.
To start out I did play Zerg in SC:BW, and loved it. I liked both non mirror matchups and learned to tolerate ZvZ. However it seems in SC2, that Terran is so dominant. Ive watched replays from WhiteRa, and knowing he's a good player he still has a hard time vs most Terran.
Now I havent played anything on multiplayer yet. I'm still wanting to learn all the hotkeys and get comfortable playing before I start online. But even Very hard / Insane AI computers as terran light my ass up with just massing marines/marauders and medivacs. I have tried banelings with support from Lings/Hydras/Mutas/etc.. but it still won't take out an army that is just being pushed out non stop.
Any suggestions? I'd like to play TvZ and TvP but I really don't like mirror matches and would like to play Toss or Zerg vs Terran. Any help, advice, replays would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Mass Tier 1 units off of two bases still leaves you with some spare gas. Especially if you use a Zergling heavy unit composition. Might I humbly suggest (not having tried it at all) adding a more aggressive unit upgrade stance.
If he's going more Mech, then get the attack upgrades quick. Possibly even start +1 before starting the Lair. If he's going more with the Bio, particularly Marine-heavy, that +1 armor is going to do you a world of good.
Now, I'm not sure how this will all work out in actual play. I'm not convinced that this strategy will stop high-level Mech play. I think it depends primarily on how much you can delay his expansion. If he tries to fast-expo against you, you have the tools to hurt him. At the same time, he can easily have a Sieged Tank or two on a ledge protecting the entrance to his natural, which would make anything less than an all-out attack auto-fail.
Plus, worst-comes-to-worst, he can always lift his CC off and pull his SCVs back to his base. But if you can actually own the ground of his natural, make him have to one-base to build up an army big enough to come out of his wall-in and forcibly remove your units, then I think you have a good shot at breaking the Terran.
It might even be worth the 300 gas to stick a Nydus Worm there if you can truly hold that ground for long enough.
It is an intriguing strategy. Assuming it can be pulled off.
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I have a question, what do you do against drops on cliffs?? like in desert oasis, lost temple, the new 4 player map (crossfire i think? the one with an expo in the main covered by rocks), kulas ravine and so on?
Because im tired of facing that strat and i have found that mutas are the only counter to it.
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To make a point to my previous post, I guess maybe I wasn't using enough banelings? I think with 8-10 the splash will just melt down most early MM attacks.
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Bumping for moar edits; not completely necroing, check mah editz.
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EPT
