EPT[G] ZvT (Not a Balance Thread) - Page 2
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brad drac
Ireland202 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
Thinking mostly about ultras for that transition though straight to corrupter/broodlord could be fun too. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 06 2010 07:03 Saracen wrote: This is exactly how I'm playing ZvT at the moment, and it's working just fine. The only exception is if he's going extremely marauder heavy with medivacs, in which case I add mutas. It's probably worth it to note that you're going to need another hatch somewhere or else your minerals are going to soar midgame (which complements the extra early queens nicely). Yep. He did manage to beat me with it yesterday in fact. It was a close game though, but I almost never lose TvZ. The strategy is very viable. HOWEVER! Get burrow. Burrowed banelings are the most cost efficient defender. They force ravens or slowpushes, are not a big investment, and can cut off choke points. It's so important to abuse them. Another point to note: Roaches demolish tank/marine before stim is out, and roach/baneling is very effective vs tank/marine. It becomes a very control-based fight. Just spread your banelings out and run roaches in to absorb the first volleys. And lastly, when hitting hive tech get greater spire, crackling, and ultra, and make sure you get a nydus up too or at least have drop researched. It's really hard to win off of pure ultra or pure broodlord. Having both makes a considerable difference. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Idra vs. Qxc King of the Beta Semifinals! Game 2 is very relevant to the OP and current discussion. Summary: + Show Spoiler + In this Idra vs. Qxc game from the King of the Beta tournament, Idra scouts a factory from Qxc, and immediately throws down a roach warren in his main. He blunts the hellion harass with a spine crawler and a handful of roaches, and holds off Qxc's subsequent marauder/hellion push with roach/ling/queen without any of the T2 upgrades. He later transitions into Hydras and secures his third base. He destroys Qxc's mech push with roach/hydra/ling, then transitions into broodlords to win the game. Idra certainly didn't play perfectly, but there are many learning points to take from the game. - You have to be very active with creep expansion to even think about defending with roaches. Roaches get ripped apart by marauders without speed. - Zerg got an extremely late lair. Idra didn't start his lair until about 6:30-6:40 in the video, just after he fends off the marauder/hellion push. With active creep expansion, T1 unit defense is very viable. - Idra didn't get zergling speed, and I think that's a bit of a blunder looking at the first marauder/hellion push. I would have felt a bit more comfortable with zergling speed instead of a few roaches. A pack of zerglings hitting the back of the push could really help in combination with a meat shield of roaches in the front. - Idra put down a hydra den shortly before securing his 3rd base. On a larger map, mutalisks would have probably been a better idea. Even with thors on the map, it would prevent the hellion/marauder midgame aggression because of the thors' immobility. On Steppes of War, maybe hydras are a better idea given the short rush distance. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
Not to disrespect jinjo but your claim has as little value as the ppl saying marine tank melts Z t1 when you have no replays going yet. | ||
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f0rk
England172 Posts
Will definietly try this again mixing in more queens and banelings. Would love to see some replays showing the intial opener and lair timing. | ||
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n3mo
United States298 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
i did not try it on other maps to be honest just because the backdoor is not there ^^ time to test it | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
I open with some early roaches (4-5 on one base) and use them to punish certain terran openings like 1:1:1, reapers, or straight factory builds. Then grab my expansion and go into speedlings/roach/baneling. I don't see the value in delaying tier 2 all that much though. Roach speed, ovie speed and baneling speed are all vital. I suppose you don't need to hit it right away, but I feel like delaying it too much is really risky. The problem with mutas is simple... even if he does 'waste' money on thors and missiles turrets... 1. He can just stall out the game until the cost of the missile turrets is inconsequential 2. His Turrets still help vs any future doom drops or muta harass 3. Thors are still extremely combat efficient vs any Zerg ground unit when supported (especially with NP nerf). | ||
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Hann1bal
United States46 Posts
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epik640x
United States1134 Posts
Scout with OLs. Position OLs all over the map. It's okay to lose them, the scouting is more important. Sac one going into their base if you have to. With speed even vikings have trouble chasing them down. | ||
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
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shoe1452
United States7 Posts
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
On August 06 2010 08:04 Calamity wrote: I've posted this before but I think with this strat, you can use this tactic quite effectively with good micro and multi tasking. + Show Spoiler + Possible playing around with overlords and drops? 1. Upgrade ovie sacs and speed. 2. Load Queen. 3. Move to untaken mineral expos of opponent. 4. Ovie generate creep, Queen makes creep tumor. 5. Spread the creep tumors with the regenerating ability. 6. Repeat at all other expos. Best used against Terran since they need to have a scan to remove the creep tumor. If they get a Raven, it's high up on the tech tree and requires a bit of gas to make as well. You can even sneak a drop into the main of the Terran, lay down 1 - 3 tumors and spread them one at a time into the Terran's base. You'll get scouting, him wasting gas for a raven, or him wasting a scan. If you spread them one at a time and you lay like 3 tumors, you can make him waste 3 scans :D If you do this early enough, his base is gonna have a bunch creep that he can't build on. And it set you up for a drop where the creep will give you a huge advantage if he doesn't do anything about it. The problem with this is that Terran can support themselves off of one base. | ||
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AnodyneSea
Jamaica757 Posts
On August 06 2010 09:01 imbored89 wrote: Awesome OP. Has anyone tried it out? I'd love to see some replays. I'll try to get some replays of my own out here for others to study/critique/etc. This is exactly how I play and it works. Mass T1 units roach/ling and you'll be fine, T2 units dont fare well and it's better to swarm with T1 very cost effective and works. T2 not cost effective and generally doesnt work. I usually play defense until I get ultras out. I think the OP left out a very crucial part of this matchup, scouting. First 2 overlords should be placed at the sides of a Terran's base so you can float them in and sac for info(I usually time it so i can see if a starport is going up), also a good idea to sac lings every now and then to see his army comp. This usually allows me to power drones. general info from scouting: more rax, bio - make more units... hes gearing up for an early push starports with tech labs - make more queens and think about dropping some cash on spores (dont be afraid to power drones hard hes investing in air tech and most likely wont push the front with a huge ground army) CC - power drones hard and think about taking a 3rd while teching fast to ultras(but at the same time dont skimp too much on units) This match up is difficult, i wouldnt say it's imba. Pretty tired of all the zerg crying, even if it is that bad its still possible to win. Figure it out and stop crying. | ||
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f0rk
England172 Posts
On August 07 2010 06:14 AnodyneSea wrote: This is exactly how I play and it works. Mass T1 units roach/ling and you'll be fine, T2 units dont fare well and it's better to swarm with T1 very cost effective and works. I'm guessing, and it's I think it's important to make clear, you still get lair and then all the upgrades pretty quickly. This worked well for me again today against a not great terran, I scouted he was going tank/bio, and as he pushed with about 6 tanks and maybe 20 marine/maruader I finished burrowed roach movement (I could/should of got it faster). Roaches came up on the tanks unsieging as the bio ball pushed forward and got attacked by lings and a few more roaches. My build needs smoothing out and he wasn't great (I don't have enough experience to know how strong his push was compared to what it could be), but I felt safe the whole time after he opened reapers. What should I skew my composition towards against a massive bio ball with a lot of maruaders? | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
Also I tried to play like a SC2 equivalent of the 3 Hatch Ultra build that Eva did in Broodwar, where you just stall on tier 1/1.5 units for forever until you get a bunch of Ultras, and I've gotten mixed results. Personally, I'm still not convinced of the merits of Ultralisks compared to Broodlords :3 | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On August 06 2010 09:29 Sixes wrote: Just an odd idea, would it be possible to go from the tier 1.5+lair upgrades, 3 base and skip to tier 3 ? Thinking mostly about ultras for that transition though straight to corrupter/broodlord could be fun too. This is my current gameplan. After some though about the ZvT matchup, tier 2 units just aren't very good for their cost. Mutas - way too expensive (gas-wise) for how easily they can be fended off, either by a Thor, which is very cost efficient, or by marines which cost no gas, ie they're practically free. Hydras - they're okay, but just not too great against terran. Hellion/Tank rolls these guys pretty bad. That said, I still plan on getting them to help cope with Zerg's crippling lack of anti-air (Queen is fine defensively, but you can't have map control against air units with them) Nydus - is okay, but from what I've seen nydus into a terran's base either results in a) nydus is killed and opponent lols, b) you pump your army out and he owns it with a good defensive positioning (tanks are tough to get to between buildings, etc.) c) you base trade, but he floats away and then cleans up your army when he's done demolishing your bases Infestor - I haven't experimented much with this guy. I've pretty much just done the standard fungal growthing. But I realized that fungal isn't really that great, and it's pretty much the same as a baneling, minus the immobilization. Banelings are cheaper unless you can get a lot of use out of one infestor. So overall, I just decided there's nothing I really wanted to tech to in tier 2. However, ling/baneling seems to do okay, and leaves much gas open for all those upgrades, like evo chambers, burrow, overlord ups, etc. So my current gameplan involves mass ling/baneling with very fast evo chamber (like, first 150 gas, evo placed before pool is finished). I then defend and macro with speedlings/banelings and tech straight to ultras. Roach and/or Hydra Den only as needed. If your lings have better ups than your opponent's army, they can be surprisingly effective. So far I've only played a couple games with it, but I'm satisfied with the results so far. | ||
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
On August 06 2010 06:53 KingRajesh wrote: Mass t1 gets melted by Siege Tanks with marine support. The new standard for Terran is the BioMech push, with tons of marines and 3-4 tanks at around the 7-9 min mark. It sucks. In my limited low, low chobo-diamond league experience, this isn't the case. The key is good scouting. If you catch them on the move you'll take relatively little losses. Then again, I really don't use roaches a lot (I go lingspeed -> lair -> baneling nest -> spire in that order with my gas, expanding around 22 with 6 zerglings out). The thing is, I really, really like using mutalisks and feel naked without them (versus T). I know that getting overlord drop and speed is probably the smarter overall play (and it's necessary on LT and Kulas for the threat of thor drops). I really should incorporate roaches into my ZvT sooner since it seems like everybody these days is a LzGamer copycat... I freaking hate reapers. | ||
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RawK
United States125 Posts
If you scout anything other than a fast air tech mass Roaches with zergling support is super strong. I think when they changed roaches to 2 supply alot of people got scared off, but they are just so strong. -RawK Diamond Terran. | ||
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