EPT[G] ZvT (Not a Balance Thread) - Page 5
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
BUT i think I see a loophole. If T can 1/1/1-tech to viking he can hunt OLs all day. Your 6 queens wont be able to protect against it except if you sacrifice ALL scouting and camp your OL in base (and they can still be sniped there). EDIT: ok you'll still have map control but I think it's a big sacrifice anyways. You wont see his unit composition... | ||
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JinjoBust
Korea (North)130 Posts
On August 10 2010 17:32 Cibron wrote: As a T player the tier1 macro sounds like a good idea to even out the score in ZvT. It'll become a micro game of marauding roaches and flaming lings while avoiding blings. BUT i think I see a loophole. If T can 1/1/1-tech to viking he can hunt OLs all day. Your 6 queens wont be able to protect against it except if you sacrifice ALL scouting and camp your OL in base (and they can still be sniped there). EDIT: ok you'll still have map control but I think it's a big sacrifice anyways. You wont see his unit composition... Early on you need very simplistic scouting, you basically need to know 1: Where is he? 2: What's his unit mix? 3: When is he attacking? Drone scout gives you #1 and part of #2, zerglings peeking his ramp/nat should give you most of #2. Only sac ovies to scout if you're reasonably suspicious. If you can confirm at least 2 rax and some marauders, chances are it's not a big thor drop play(etc etc, this is where your experience comes in, I can't list them all). #3 you get from the creep highway. More scouting becomes important in the late game, past 3 bases. Pretty much all T2 transitions are AA to some extent, so it sets you up nicely for map scouting at that point. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10840 Posts
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KiFFran
France3 Posts
We need replays ! <3 | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
On August 10 2010 16:43 TriniMasta wrote: yeah imo TvZ isn't imba, remember BW, ZvP? Without Nal_rA and Bisu inventing Forge FE and Corsair play, it would still be imbalanced. You never know, after a few years the standard ZvT BO would be Mass queens into fast infestors (idk just for example). Thing is there is so much potential in Ts play that we do not see cause they are to used to easy wins and do not need to get inventive with their play. The fact that Z needs one more base then T means Z will be spread out. Way open for drops and harass during the entire game. But T has so good chances of winning by just massing a ball so they do not even try stuff like this. If Z got dropped by helions, 1-2 cloaked banshees, a nuke in your base or smth else during an attack and harassed not only in the first 5min of the game I think T would push his advantage way way more. And that would make Zs base advantage less then 0. And T is still safe turtling and massing up his ball. As I see it there is waaaay more room for improvement in Ts play vs Z then the other way around. | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
 But T will be able to scout unhindered. Z will be prone to drops and harass by reapers and hellions. If Z can defend until tier2 they will own the macro game. There are pros and cons with every build I guess... I hope to see more of this on the ladder. Now all I see is gg after failed bling busts. | ||
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JinjoBust
Korea (North)130 Posts
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
Let me tell you what I saw in this replay. First off 3 rax reaper requires very good micro to pull off - something this terran did not have - he made so many mistakes (like leaving 3 doing nothing while attacking with 3). Also when he saw you had a giant roach ball instead of starting switching to marauders he built 6 more reapers. Building that many reapers and doing nothing (well he killed 2? drones) sets terran behind immensely. In the end he just let them sit in middle of map and just lost all of them cause he didn't tend to them. You have trouble spending your minerals why? Well first off you skip 2 gas for a long time and miss many inject. 2nd you are building t1 units. With 2 fully saturated bases you can't produce enough t1 to keep your money down you need a third to produce units from / get gas from if you wanna play like this (but I wanna add you werent even close to being saturated). Miserable scouting by both of you. You are so stubborn in your t1 mentality that you failed to tech switch when he went 100% marauder to counter you roach. Your opponent forgot stim.... I mean lol. As if that wouldn't have turned the outcome? He also didn't have shells. Kite your roaches to death? But 2nd time around you get steam rolled cause your macro is lacking, you do nto scout, you are not saturated and you do not tech switch accordingly.. And this is even when T did such a uber fail opening. If he just opened helion marauder instead of wasting all that time and gas on reapers it would just be GG way way way sooner and there would be no timing window for you. There was now as his opening was uber fail. But if he had made marauders instantly upon seeing roaches I very much doubt you could have done anything to his base. If you actually had went baneling/ling/muta or switched into it you would have dominated the game. So your intended "this is how you could play zerg vs terran replay" only really shows exactly how fragile it is (even when the Ts opening is such a huge fail) and shows exactly why mutas and hydras are a good choice in this MU (at times). I'm not saying that speedling and roach opening do not have their place. Of course they have. Of course roach/(ling) timing attacks could be viable. They are in ZvP as well (vs FE). But something that annoys with all this is that; There are ppl on forum that are obviously not in diamond or are is as low in diamond as I am (which is ~250 rating) (I play terrible quite often, not consider myself even slightly good, Im clueless in many games) come on forums and post their guides on how to beat terran. Cause it got them into plat or low diamond. But does this mean that you have an answer to mech terran? No it does not! In everything below diamond the only concept you need to master is keeping macro up and not building wrong units. If you start to get those 2 right you will get to plat/diamond EASILY. Just look at your own macro! Its severely lacking! and I bet you are in platinum yourself. If you advance to diamond it only means you have good macro and has started getting a game sense. Not that you come up with a strategy that works that everyone else in mid high diamond has failed to try and make work. I do not think you realize how big of difference there is even between 100 diamond and 350, its huge. I own everyone below 200 but get my ass kicked as soon as I approach 300. I mean im 100% confident I could win all matches in gold with only ling/queen. But that doesn't mean its a valid strategy. And it takes 2 weeks to get a replay that shows the strategy failing. Seriously? What is your intention with this? Did you expect to revolutionize the MU with your limited experience in the lower leagues? Saying that I who are in diamond should stop QQ about Z and learn to play I find a bit funny coming from someone that clearly has less experience. Ok you are right I should stop QQ cause that doesn't add anything to the discussion. And I totally respect your attempt to bring something to the table. But please realize that what works in plat doesn't have to work in diamond. Baneling busting is a good example here of a strategy that works in lower leagues but is a huge fail in diamond. In my eyes what needs to happen to this MU is that Z develops a really strong timing window for when terran is expoing or teching to hard, that we can punish this (roach could very well be an option here). Or a solid defense to keep 2-3 bases running while being able to harass terran into 1-2 bases. Ppl that are high end diamond might already do this. But for us lower ranked players (ooh that sound patronizing) I really want something more solid to focus my game on. As it is now there are loads of different ideas and strategies floating around, 1 base muta, 2 base muta, roach, ling,ultra,infest etc etc. All can probably work in the hands of a solid player. But not in the way spamming helions/marauders and maybe thors of 1-2 base works for T. | ||
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Setanta
99 Posts
I can vouch from a 500~ point diamond Zerg point of view (which is meaningless, but whatever) that this strategy and the logic behind makes perfect sense and is completely practical. I'm actually really comfortable with this style, and so are various others in this thread it would be seem. You're right that macro augments a players skill like nothing else and is the main thing people should focus on, but I don't see how that has any relevance. He wasn't asking for advice. I totally respect your attempt to bring something to the table. But please realize that what works in plat doesn't have to work in diamond. you're a 250 diamond player yourself, the exact same as the OP (sc2ranks.com), but you know better? lol gtfo | ||
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JinjoBust
Korea (North)130 Posts
-The strategy was played to a degree that showcased it's effectiveness within an acceptable margin of error. -Winning or losing have no impact on the viability of a strategy, as stated the goal was to make it to three bases, wherein multiple viable transitions are possible. -Scouting was bad because it was a practice match, we both knew what we were doing because it was stated before hand. -Micro of that fight: With stim and concussive shells you can kite, but my ideal engagement would have been a zergling flank to prevent just that. Roach dps comes in punches, and gets a lot of power from out numbering the enemy. In this case a stim reduces their health, and the auto-targetting from my roach volleys would kill more units. This trades off well with the stim in terms of fight outcome. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10840 Posts
In General i agree with you: Roach/Ling/Bling from 2 Base is better than Hydras of 2 base than Hydras... Hell, Roaches are not "THAT" bad against Marauders. But i disagree on one thing: Wanting to utilise mainly T1 units does not mean you need to wait any longer for going T2, in fact i tech faster when i want to stick with T1 units for longer. Reasoning? 1: You can reasonably produce T1 units from 1 base, you still need your expansion rather quick but when not wanting to go straight into Mass-Hydra or Muta the 3d and 4th Gas are just not as important, this also gives you an easyer time against harass. 2: Just drop down your Hydraden when you reach T2 and produce a "few" hydras, They are awesome at dealing with low numbers of Hellions, Reapers and Banshee's, when fighting this units you want two things: DPS and RANGE, Hydras, even in very low amounts, deliver that way better than Roaches, Speedlings and Queens (but getting one extra Queen just for Tumors is worth it anyway). 3 and most important: Roach and Banelingspeed are just sooo critical, you want them asap. Slow Banelings and Roaches offcreep are basically worthless. These 2 upgrades allow you to punish a Terran that loses a fight, instead of him retreating to safety whiteout worries (except if you still have Speedlings which often tend to be dead after a fight while your slow-Roaches still stand and are unable to follow the remainings of your enemies force). Just try Stalker vs Roaches with and whiteout upgrade, it's basically the same in ZvT against Marauder/Marine just even better. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On August 11 2010 05:47 Izzachar wrote: UNADULTERATED RAGE. Congrats on pointing out all the flaws of the OP's play, but have you done anything constructive to the discussion at hand? This thread is a discussion of strategy, not individual replays, and despite whatever the OP did, using T1 units to defend an early push is completely sound logic endorsed and performed by many top players. In fact, there's nothing in your post that would suggest that his strategy was bad. All the flaws you pointed out in the OP's play are easy fixes in play that prove this strategy's viability and solidity against early terran aggression. So please, if you're not willing to do anything constructive for this thread, take your attitude and "wisdom" somewhere else. Or as setanta wisely said: On August 11 2010 06:00 setanta wrote:you're a 250 diamond player yourself, the exact same as the OP (sc2ranks.com), but you know better? lol gtfo | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
T1-->T3 is how i play, except fast lair for scouting anyway, and i need drop/speed for baneling drops. In fact really I don't think like that at all. I think units, I always have lair in time for any "pushes" but i consider hydra/muta just to be weak, with ling/baneling is really good and roaches are solid opener to defend hellions/reapers with very little if any losses, and also decent against everything but marauders. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
On August 11 2010 06:03 JinjoBust wrote: Izzachar, I wouldn't be able to answer you directly without sounding rude and vain, so I'll state my facts and be gone. -The strategy was played to a degree that showcased it's effectiveness within an acceptable margin of error. -Winning or losing have no impact on the viability of a strategy, as stated the goal was to make it to three bases, wherein multiple viable transitions are possible. -Scouting was bad because it was a practice match, we both knew what we were doing because it was stated before hand. -Micro of that fight: With stim and concussive shells you can kite, but my ideal engagement would have been a zergling flank to prevent just that. Roach dps comes in punches, and gets a lot of power from out numbering the enemy. In this case a stim reduces their health, and the auto-targetting from my roach volleys would kill more units. This trades off well with the stim in terms of fight outcome. Im not trying to start a flame war. I was rude in my initial post so kudos to you for keeping it clean sorry for my outburst. I try and be more constructive. I think you should make a practice game where the T does not go 3 rax reaper as its a very difficult opening unless you can micro very well. And it gives no pay out if you mass that amount of roaches and make him practicly waste 600gas. So it gives your opening an huge advantage playing like this You are correct about the fight vs the marauders. I still really like to see it deal with helion marauder until you get 3 bases. Does it keep enough map control vs igniter helions for you to take 3 bases? Does it stand up to timing attacks? I really feel that you want crawlers when you FE to hold off 1 base terran timing attacks. But I might be wrong here. Maybe ling roach is enough to hold on, macro up enough to secure a third. Again sorry for the outburst. I apologize In fact, there's nothing in your post that would suggest that his strategy was bad. All the flaws you pointed out in the OP's play are easy fixes in play that prove this strategy's viability and solidity against early terran aggression. If marauders steam roll it, and not teching to mutas to solve that, before taking a 3rd it is bad. But if it can hold its own until 3 base t3 goodness that its all good. But that replay doesn't show that as the T wastes 600gas or more on 12+ reapers. | ||
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f0rk
England172 Posts
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JinjoBust
Korea (North)130 Posts
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Clockwerk
United States11 Posts
A little bit more on topic, I think this build, or rather the thinking behind it, highlights some important points for zerg. Yes we can get t1 out very fast and in great numbers, but they are rather frail and the upgrades for tier 1 lie in tier 2 tech. Therefore instead of trying to hold on with t1 while getting an acceptable t2 army, we can find ways to buff up our t1 units en masse and utilize timing windows (should we discover them ;p) to become more effective in the early game. Of course this is major theorycrafting but I think it will do well to break the mold of "OH GOD MY UNITS SUCK I HAVE TO GET TO T3 FFFFUUUUU-" | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Just a couple of points from the game: 1) As Day9 notes, Zerg's midgame strategy is primarily zergling, infester, creep. The primary advantages of using T1 units are mobility over raw DPS, and using creep/infesters complements these advantages perfectly. Creep allows your T1 army to keep map control through increased speed, while infestors both stall pushes and enable T1 units to surround and flank. 2) Zerg uses mutalisks and zergling runbys to keep the terran army in its base. It's important to understand that "defending" is not limited to an army vs. army engagment. T1 units, especially zerglings, are great at backstabbing, eliminating reinforcements, and stalling for time against pushes. Mutalisks are another unit great at keeping contain. They don't do much damage, but they stall for expansions and unit production. So while Brat_OK vs. TLO was very mid-game oriented, we can adapt many of TLO's techniques into Zerg play against early aggression. - Creeping the map very aggressively in the early game pays dividends when engaging a terran bio-ball. Flanks and surrounds make a zerg army exponentially more effective. Getting a very early 3rd queen (for creep tumoring) out of the natural hatchery would be very helpful for early-game defense. - Backstabbing with a small group (10-12) of zerglings can be an excellent way to contain terran in the early game (this was also rather common in broodwar). Because of zergling speed, zerglings can attack Terran workers and depots, and make it back to the zerg base in time to provide a very useful flank attack against the terran push. - Rushing to Infestors probably isn't a practical solution against an early game push, but since most T1 defenses will rely heavily on zerglings, banelings seem like a very supply/cost effective solution to deal with the bio-ball early game. - Infestors and Mutalisks can be a great transition tech bridging T1 to T3. The goal of these units are to stall for time: get a 3rd/4th base up to get the economy for T3 tech. | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
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