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On August 04 2010 09:01 BrTarolg wrote:
Btw just so you know
1/1/1 (done properly) absolutely trashes this build
if he holds the marines at the top of the ramp (as opposed to behind the wall) to damage the initial stalkers and then keeps pumping marines and then get shis first tank out by the time you get your 4th stalker (with the 2 gate variant) void rays are much too late
Otherwise if you go 1 gate fast ray then he will have 6-7 marines by the time your first voidray arrives. When tank comes out your harass is over and he can almost a-move you if you didnt add on gates
All micro dependent ofc, but its the same way that seige expand or FD in SC1 > 2gate goon if played properly (enough to defend and push out to expand)
Still you can hold enough to transition out (if you do the 2 gate variant) into an expansion or more 1 base play (if you are afraid of 1 base t)
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for those of you who dont think that 1/1/1 beats this (esp the 1 gate variant) then just try the BO a few times or check out my youtube video and the timings are pretty obvious
I don't do the exact build that OP does, but I really haven't had problems against 1/1/1. If they skimp on marines they lose to the stalkers, and if they have a lot of marines and your stalkers haven't picked off a lot of them you can just go robotics facility rather than stargate.
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I also might add i did do your build but its a variation as well
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Question: Is it better to target maruaders or marines with your void rays fighting with a stalker (zealot) void ray army.
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You always want to kill the marines first as they are the only early game unit that can damage your voids.. once the marines are dead you can have a field day with the marauders and buildings.
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did more pvt in plat 4th place in league now. most people will mass mauarders at the sight of initial stalkers. i lost one because i build 3 voidrays and only 4 stalkers and the terran massed marines and pushed out with siege/marine 
shoot marines unless theres a big ball of it. and if there is you probably cant push anyways.
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I do your build a lot with little variations too.
What i really like is faking an early expend... Building the gate at the ramp of the natural (like in steppes). That way, they usually get marine faster in case of a rush or think i'm going for a quick expend and dont do a lot of unit to defend...
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That way I can get my stalker in his base 20-30 sec earlier.
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It's similar to what I do only replace the void rays with phoenix. You can get the 1st one out to scout very quickly with chrono, it's better for worker harass (I always go after their gas miners first) and if the terran gets tanks you can get a nice timing push by lifting them during your 1st attack.
The stat comparison
2 voidrays = $500 300gas 2minutes 6 supply
3 phoenix = $450 300gas 2min15sec 6 supply
The fact that phoenix are much faster than voidrays, and can move while shooting, makes their abilities to scout, harass, snipe medevacs or ravens, deal with vikings and most importantly STAY ALIVE better than void rays IMO.
When I get that 1st scout in I basically decide to either go more chargelot vs bio or add immortal vs mech and I decide whether or not to expo or wait.
I've Been rolling Terrans with phoenix, whenever I go void rays I get smoked by marine/FE or maurader all in's. Because the extra build time on void rays, the fact that it takes twice as long to move across the map means you get a much earlier scout with phoenix at a more crucial timing (because you'll have time to react). At this point in the game the terran will most likely be walled and you wont have obs yet if you went stargate 1st.
I think this would work very well with the stalker harass and recharge idea because you can keep them running back and forth from their choke to their minerals and keep doing damage to their income or force them to turtle. Also, when they try to repair a structure you grab the scv and snipe him before he does any repairing. Sniping his 1st medevac will be way easier (and devastating). When the first siege tank arrives you can instantly take it out of the fight.
The OP is obviously better than me from the information he gave about his league and rank. I bet you'd have Terrans crying IMBA if you started using phoenix's instead of voidrays.
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Hey everyone, sYz-Adrenaline has been kind enough to give me a couple of replays.
In his replays he does a slight variation on the dual-stalker rush, opting to get 2 zealots out before the 2 stalkers. It does delay his attack time considerably - so much so that the early harass doesn't work in either replay, but it has some immediate advantages: With the zealots there to tank it becomes less micro-intensive, and it also has more balance against early marauders.
The first replay is posted in the replays section.
In the second replay he doesn't follow up his rush with stargate tech, so it doesn't really fit into this strategy thread...but it is one of the coolest replays I have seen in a long time. I won't give too much away, but note that a) it is high level play, b) I have never seen so many gateways from one person before, and c) can you say carriers?
Because he went carriers I have put a link to the replay in the 3. Mid-game Transition Carriers section.
And before I go...
On August 04 2010 12:32 Reborn8u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +t's similar to what I do only replace the void rays with phoenix. You can get the 1st one out to scout very quickly with chrono, it's better for worker harass (I always go after their gas miners first) and if the terran gets tanks you can get a nice timing push by lifting them during your 1st attack.
The stat comparison
2 voidrays = $500 300gas 2minutes 6 supply
3 phoenix = $450 300gas 2min15sec 6 supply
The fact that phoenix are much faster than voidrays, and can move while shooting, makes their abilities to scout, harass, snipe medevacs or ravens, deal with vikings and most importantly STAY ALIVE better than void rays IMO.
When I get that 1st scout in I basically decide to either go more chargelot vs bio or add immortal vs mech and I decide whether or not to expo or wait.
I've Been rolling Terrans with phoenix, whenever I go void rays I get smoked by marine/FE or maurader all in's. Because the extra build time on void rays, the fact that it takes twice as long to move across the map means you get a much earlier scout with phoenix at a more crucial timing (because you'll have time to react). At this point in the game the terran will most likely be walled and you wont have obs yet if you went stargate 1st.
I think this would work very well with the stalker harass and recharge idea because you can keep them running back and forth from their choke to their minerals and keep doing damage to their income or force them to turtle. Also, when they try to repair a structure you grab the scv and snipe him before he does any repairing. Sniping his 1st medevac will be way easier (and devastating). When the first siege tank arrives you can instantly take it out of the fight.
The OP is obviously better than me from the information he gave about his league and rank. I bet you'd have Terrans crying IMBA if you started using phoenix's instead of voidrays.
You are not the first one to try to convince me about the awesomeness of phoenixes - I will have to give it a try. Phoenixes can't provide that devastating punch that a void ray can - but forcing them to throw down some turrets and move away from their front could be useful indeed, and being able to win the air vs air battle could be nice. I may have to bump them up on my high-ground scouting unit spectrum if things go well. At the very least we may be able to identify maps and scenarios where they do have a distinct advantage over void rays, such as maps/positions where the terran is likely to go for drops or some sort of earlier air composition.
Edit: I also added a new replay - Plexa vs Figgy.
Thanks sYz-Adrenaline and Plexa for taking the time to send me some replays
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A quick note on teching to carriers
Ive done the 1 gateway version into 2 base carriers twice, and won once and lost once with it
Carriers are incredibly cost effective vs most terran armies, as terrans rarely get enough vikings to counter it
The main problem is that during your switch to carriers they take a LONG time to tech and leave a big window of oppourtunity to push against you
The way i did this was going 1 gate 1 stargate and then expanding after my second voidray, then dropping an additional 2 gates to start pumping mass stalker/sentry whilst adding probes
You pretty much are forced to drop the additional 2 gates if you want to defend any kind of terran push once he gets a viking (as then your harass ends) - however the stronger his push NOW, the weaker his later timing attack is
Then you need to drop a robo, and your fleet beacon and start pumping carriers from 2 stargates
THIS is when you are really weakest ihmo because you are living off 3 gate stalker sentry all game and a big marauder push right now spells big trouble for you if he pushes halfway when your carriers are done
Once you got 4 carriers its easygame though, just add additional gates whilst your 4th's are building and then when you push out warp a bunch of stalkers, the terran rarely has 12 vikings to deal with it and also carriers have a biig range so you can focus vikings if you are lucky
Still a rickety transition though
Oh, and never play on lost temple or any droppable natural because you wont be able to defend it (just in standard PVT anyway its an autoloss vs a decent player)
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Yeah, we've trying this with a terran friend, he went thor+ghost vs my stalker contain + vr.
It's tricky, i cannot really harras the ramp against this, because he gets a marauder when my stalker gets there. And later on it will depend on my VR against his thor, 1v1 with SCVs repairing is a no-go, so i have to go into a more harras mode and try to break the front, when i get 2 VRs if i charge both i can burn the thor even with all the scvs repairing... Still tricky, but not particulary as hard as i thought.
We are gonna try practicing against 1-1-1 that doesnt sound a lot more scarier...
On August 04 2010 03:55 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 03:43 Crosswind wrote:
VRs versus Thors isn't actually as one-sided as one might think.
In particular, I'm pretty sure that a single charged VR will beat a Thor, 1v1. Seeing as Thors are incredibly slow, you should be able to get up to full charge before fighting it.
There's nothing that comes out of a factory that is particularly scary to a VR. The scary bits are vikings and marines.
-Cross The only time a Thor wins one-on-one is if its getting repaired.
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I think it's important, when doing the 2 stalk opening to send a probe up the ramp first, it can either be your 12 scouting probe if you kept it alive or an additional probe you send out before your stalkers finish. Helps deal with early concussive shell, and lets your stalkers abuse their range advantage to get first hits on marines.
For anyone doing the 12gate15gate15core opening, if there is a scv scout in your main do you prefer to kill it before sending your first 2 stalkers to the enemy ramp, wait for your 3rd stalker to clean it up, or just ignore it for long periods of time and what is your reasoning?
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On August 05 2010 02:17 Jaeger wrote:
I think it's important, when doing the 2 stalk opening to send a probe up the ramp first, it can either be your 12 scouting probe if you kept it alive or an additional probe you send out before your stalkers finish. Helps deal with early concussive shell, and lets your stalkers abuse their range advantage to get first hits on marines.
For anyone doing the 12gate15gate15core opening, if there is a scv scout in your main do you prefer to kill it before sending your first 2 stalkers to the enemy ramp, wait for your 3rd stalker to clean it up, or just ignore it for long periods of time and what is your reasoning?
I leave it until I want to throw down the stargate, this way he'll see the constant stalkers and hopefully make more marauders. When I kill the SCV I'll build the stargate and start sending voids to catch him unprepared.
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I feel like trying this bu I'm kinda weary as atm most terrans open marauder rush with concussive shells to pressure my ramp. Going only stalker would be insta lose to that as far as I can tell.
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I will definitely try this out.
How does it play against the increasingly popular mass marine/tank?
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God I love this build Using it in Plat and I haven't lost to Terran yet. I love how flexible it is for such an all in build
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What about tanks? My main problem vs Terrans in general is tanks  Seems like once he gets even one out I can no longer touch his main.
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I came across something like this in my laddering earlier today, and let me say, it's annoying as hell to deal with. I just always seem to have the wrong unit. Grr.
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On August 05 2010 14:36 HeyJude wrote:What about tanks? My main problem vs Terrans in general is tanks Seems like once he gets even one out I can no longer touch his main.
void rays will handle that, so will immortals
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I must say that it is impressive how effective the stalker harass is on its own. I started doing this build today (more or less, I do some "gut feeling" adjustments), and I have managed to win to games with the first 4 stalkers alone.
Seems like people are not quite as used to early stalker harass as they were the similar goon harass at the wall in BW.
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As a terran doing the 1-1-1 build I would like to ask for some advice. I always lose to some stalkerblinkintoyourbase (like this strat) strat and I am wondering how I can hold it. Stalkers are so fast that they can seriously screw your mineral line very fast. Some protosses add phoenixes and then it's completely over (they lift your tanks).
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EPT
