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Gnial ... i met someone who uses this tactic and ... donno ... but .... i really HOPE my protoss opponed DOES ur build !
I am a 400 diamond player and ... i usually have the harrasing position ... and only get owned by 4-5 gateways powered by players with good micro skills ...
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Plz answer this ... i never build a marine ... i always tech barrack and reaper then mara (or just maraurder - depending on the map .. mood, etc) ... This depends a lot of the scouting ... even if you have a core - i build the reaper anyway (at 14-15) because he will keep you in your BASE ! U need to protect those probes ... at least one stalker ...
The maraurder provides very good defence (except on kulan ravine - where the reaper is in your base already) ... shock shells being researched the same tine - it s a FREE KILL a single stalker at my gates !
I go barracks ... tech ... 2nd barracks reactor ... 3rd barracks tech ... and push.
It s gg right there unless u go 4 gates ! I don t understand how u can counter this ... I was never countered with your build or fast immortal tech , etc
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yeah you guys should so check out my PvT on LT 
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It hasn't even been a week since I posted a bare-bones stalker-void ray build, and we are already starting to see this strategy evolve towards responsive stargate tech rather than just void ray tech, and towards a more diverse gateway composition rather than just stalkers in the later early-game! So thanks to everyone for contributing with your ideas and personal flairs with the build.
I have added a discussion about the phoenix as a possible replacement for the void-ray against the 1-1-1 build. Now, I have to emphasize that I have not tried it yet - but I have had so many people promoting the phoenix in place of the void ray, in particular against the 1-1-1 build, that I had to include it - especially since it is so easy to change from going stalker-void ray to stalker-phoenix...simply click the build phoenix hotkey instead of the build void ray hotkey.
I hope to expand upon that discussion and move it into its own section once I have more information and support - so I will be accumulating replays as people send them, and when I get back to playing in a few days I will create some of my own replays. Send me phoenix vs. terran replays if you have them ! (+++ if the replay also shows stalker harass - but its ok if it doesn't.)
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Phoenix stalker is no new thing unfortunately :< I went phoenix/zealots (before tc upgrades) then phoenix/stalkers because I saw some other Protoss doing it vs me.
And people using this strategy is kind of obvious isn't it :D
This is TL the nr1 sc2 site for the western people 
Posting something here will come into ladder games quite quickly if it is successful then you'll only see this coming more and more.
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On August 06 2010 17:34 shannn wrote:Phoenix stalker is no new thing unfortunately :< I went phoenix/zealots (before tc upgrades) then phoenix/stalkers because I saw some other Protoss doing it vs me. And people using this strategy is kind of obvious isn't it :D This is TL the nr1 sc2 site for the western people Posting something here will come into ladder games quite quickly if it is successful then you'll only see this coming more and more.
Heh, point taken.
Still, although phoenix-stalker may not be 'new' to the greater SC2 community, it seems like anyone going stalker-void ray should make themselves familiar with it to give themselves the flexibility to adapt to a 1-1-1 build (or any other T build, for that matter) that is done in anticipation of void rays presenting themselves on the battlefield.
Myself, I have virtually no experience with phoenixes in the PvT matchup, so in order to write on it with any measure of credibility I hope to support the pro-phoenix feedback I have received with some replays, as well as get some replays illustrating the weaknesses of a phoenix variation.
That said, if the phoenix zealot variation you mentioned works better than phoenix stalker against the 1-1-1 build, I'd love to include that too! Easy enough to transition out of stalkers into zealots.
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Void rays give diminishing returns fairly quickly at least for someone like me without the multitask to properly control them separately and keep them charged, alive, and shooting what they should be.
In addition they cost an awful lot and are pretty slow (both in build time and travel time). I've adapted into building 1 void ray as it already forces plenty of response and then phoenix and more gateway units since phoenix are cheaper (after 180s you can have 4 phoenix which cost 600m 400g 8s or 3 void rays which cost 750m 450g 9s) easier to control, quicker to reinforce, and bolster everything you're doing. They're also much better at dealing with a marine viking response to your void rays.
Before this I had several games where the terran player would just marine tank push me and let my void rays destroy his main as there were too many marines to engage his ball with my void rays. My army was just too small and seige + scan deals with FF at my ramp pretty quickly as the sentries die right before or after casting. However with 1 vr into phoenix when he tries this you have more stuff, your void ray can still trash his main and you can take most or all of his tanks out of the initial seconds of the fight which lets stalker sentry zealot destroy marines, especially if you managed to sneak a +1 armor and got a guardian shield off.
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okay im a noob just got the game and somehow scraped by into plat, and i just tried this build and got owned so hard. I don't know what i did wrong but the terran just went mass marauders with concussive shot and he out numbered my stalkers so bad that even if he didn't slow them down and pick them off i would have lost. I got out my void ray, but by that time i was in my own base defending and he had enough marines to pick it off and then it was game over. What should I do?
EDIT i played this on steppes of war, is that a bad map to do it on? but a few posts above mine a terran player posted his strat against it, which is pretty much it seems like what just happened to me and i couldn't stop it.
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Mayco: If terran is doing early all in marauder push, you need sentries with forcefield to block your ramp while u get a few VR out.
Marauders with conc shell will destroy protoss ground armies.
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okay so that probably is what he was doing... so they wont usually have that many marauders?
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
I watched most reps since im hurting vs t atm and wanted to try the void raid variant. I have one qualm, however. You say its a neat way to go into mid game and expo and whatnot. However I only saw one rep in which you expoed(Steppes of War), and I think it was due to the t taking your gas and you going 3 gate instead. All others seem to you killing the terran outwright or the strat being stopped, so isnt this more like an all in?
Edit: Also I would like you to reply to tomtaieot(first poster in this page), since that opening is quite strong/common among diamond players nowadays and thats pretty much what im losing to every time.
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I've been using this build all day, and have only lost twice. Once the guy went all in marauders, which seems to counter it (vs me atleast). and the other time the guy snuck hellions into the back of my base killing most of my probes or I would have won. This is my favorite PvT build already because it lets me be on the offensive and I love void rays
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The VR build is pretty much the only way to contain a Terran and make them spend a lot on turrets, splitting up their army to defend multiple locations. It's like harassing mutalisks on steroids.
If they mass vikings its fine, shoot and scoot, they can't be everywhere, vikings are slow. Forcing marine stim to chase is also good, as it weakens them for your follow up ground forces. I don't like to rely so much on a single unit but its pretty much the only strat with reasonable success vs T. Gateway units (and immortals) are no match for stim marines/rauders with tanks.
The other option vs T is HT for feedback n storms.
What sucks is the tech tree. You are kinda forced to have an observer regardless of which tech you pick.
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On August 08 2010 14:44 SwaY- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I watched most reps since im hurting vs t atm and wanted to try the void raid variant. I have one qualm, however. You say its a neat way to go into mid game and expo and whatnot. However I only saw one rep in which you expoed(Steppes of War), and I think it was due to the t taking your gas and you going 3 gate instead. All others seem to you killing the terran outwright or the strat being stopped, so isnt this more like an all in?
Edit: Also I would like you to reply to tomtaieot(first poster in this page), since that opening is quite strong/common among diamond players nowadays and thats pretty much what im losing to every time.
It is definitely possible to play this strategy like an all-in strategy which is why I try to emphasize harassing cautiously with the intension of not losing troops. Unfortunately most of my games have tended to end earlier rather than later which is less than ideal for educational purposes. However, you'll notice that on both steppes of war replays, and on the desert oasis replay, I do save enough minerals to get my expansion while keeping the pressure on.
That said, it feels a lot less all-in if more sentries and zealots are mixed in to the gateway composition after the initial harass. Personally, now that I'm back from vacation, I'm going to be experimenting with different gateway compositions - and phoenixes - to see if I can improve the feel of the strategy.
With regards to Tomtaietot's strategy, sending a reaper against a fast stalker build - and then going delayed (after reaper) mass marauder against an early void-ray timing, seems like a terrible idea to me. I discuss reapers in the "weaknesses" section of the guide if you're interested. I think Tomtaietot over-estimates the effectiveness of temporarily delaying 1 stalker for the time/resource cost of having to build a reaper, but I won't go into any specific discussion about Tomtaietot's build unless I am provided with a replay that will allow us to gauge timings, etc. If you want to watch a replay exhibiting reapers, my opponent in one of the steppes of war replays tries a later-supply reaper harass after I slightly delay his barracks, much as Tomtaietot suggests he would do. I have 4 stalkers out before the reaper reaches my base...
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Gnial, fantastic build and strategy. I'm just getting into sc2, played a lot of wc3 and messed around in brood war, however i'm finding sc2 is a big step up in terms of the quality of players on ladder. Got dumped in silver after placements, and have been using this strategy in PvT with great success and now top of my division, hoping for promotion soon! I basically attribute all my recent PvT wins to you and this thread.
Probably already mentioned, but I have also found if they are going very marauder heavy early, getting some sentries for FFing your ramp is a good way to buy time to get your VRs into position or produce more.
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Very good build.
I gave it a try when someone did it against me (TvP). Dual gateway for stalker rush into void ray... it's pretty fun to play and damn effictive/safe.
I mean... I won like 10 PvT in a row with this against plat/diamond players in custom game and I only played like 7-8 times with protoss before that xD.
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@ LtLolburger and Ganil
Congrats on the wins Its always good to hear some positive feedback ^^.
@ SwaY
As luck would have it, the one PvT I played today went into the late game, so I've posted the replay (#7 Gnial vs. Roam) in the replay wins section. Hope it helps.
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Honestly the past 8 Terran I have played just bunker regardless, even when I single gate, so it kind of makes the rush for 2 stalkers a little more pointless - at least I think.
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I think people misunderstand about this build.
First, this is a polyvalent but hard build to play. You need to be able to multitask and apprehend the enemy strategy quickly (I won't talk about macro, you NEED to have a good macro no matter what) so that you can see what will be the best : continue to poke the enemy with stalkers and adding VRs laters, going for a wall death outright by sniping the marines with Stalkers and your VRs very close, attacking the wall with stalkers while having VRs going for the economy, etc...
There are plenty of things you can do with this strategy. Be innovative, surprise a Terran. The only way you can win is by knowing the risks, because this is a very polyvalent strategy, but hard to master.
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Hi everyone,
I have a question about the dual stalker opening. Everything seems to be pretty standard up until after the 14 gas. Do you start saving chronoboost right after your second chrono? More importantly, when do you resume, or know to resume probe production?
9 pylon
chrono nexus
12 gate
scout
chrono nexus - start saving chrono?
14 gas
15 gate
15 core
16 pylon
16 build both stalkers
chrono gateways - chrono both gateways?
resume probe production?
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On August 11 2010 03:28 wongster wrote:
Hi everyone,
I have a question about the dual stalker opening. Everything seems to be pretty standard up until after the 14 gas. Do you start saving chronoboost right after your second chrono? More importantly, when do you resume, or know to resume probe production?
9 pylon
chrono nexus
12 gate
scout
chrono nexus - start saving chrono?
14 gas
15 gate
15 core
16 pylon
16 build both stalkers
chrono gateways - chrono both gateways?
resume probe production?
I start saving after the second chronoboost so that I can chrono out the first 4 stalkers, or after chronoing out the first 2 stalkers I can chrono something else like warp gate or void rays.
As for when to resume probe production, you resume probe production once you start making the 2 stalkers. You are trying to have exactly 250 minerals and 100 gas when your cyber core and second gateway finish in order to build the 2 stalkers simultaneously, so you want to make as many probes as you can beforehand without overspending. Then you can resume after those first 2 stalkers have entered production.
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EPT
