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[G] Gnial's PvT Stalker-Void Ray Strategy - Page 7

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
August 10 2010 20:23 GMT
#121
This is an amazing thread, I will check out the replays later.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
August 10 2010 20:41 GMT
#122
On August 11 2010 03:28 wongster wrote:
Hi everyone,
I have a question about the dual stalker opening. Everything seems to be pretty standard up until after the 14 gas. Do you start saving chronoboost right after your second chrono? More importantly, when do you resume, or know to resume probe production?

9 pylon
chrono nexus
12 gate
scout
chrono nexus - start saving chrono?
14 gas
15 gate
15 core
16 pylon
16 build both stalkers
chrono gateways - chrono both gateways?
resume probe production?



On August 03 2010 05:33 Jaeger wrote:
About the dual stalker opening. I've been doing something similar for a while that I practiced a lot during the downtime between phase 1 and phase 2 of the beta in a build order tester.

The order is similar but not exactly the same

9 pylon
chrono nexus
12 gate
scout
chrono nexus
rally 13th probe to vespene geyser
14 gas
15 gate
asym should finish, put 2 probes on gas
15 core
put worker that built core on gas
chrono nexus
build probes to 18
pylon when you can (16 or 17)
18 build both stalkers (you should be basically at a perfect 250m 100g when your core finishes)
chrono gateway
you should be at 21-23 energy on your nexus
chrono 2nd gateway

since stalkers take more than the full duration of a chrono boost to build both your stalkers come out at the same time and you have a slightly better economy

I can post some replays after I get off work if anyone is interested, love this opening


If you get a unfavorable split, build your buildings far from your minerals, or get harassed at all by an enemy worker you're probably going to have to cut a probe and build stalkers on 17. If you time it right your gateway core and 2nd pylon all finish together.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Elanshin
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia216 Posts
August 10 2010 21:44 GMT
#123
Having come up against this, as a terran, i found that my 2 rushed cloaked banshee is very effective against this. Early bunker prevents any real stalker action going up the ramp, and when my tank pops out that just stops any stalker harass cold, with 5-6 marines most toss will not send 1 vr alone in as theres too much chance of it dying and opting to wait for the 2nd vr. This allows me to get my 2nd banshee and cloak up (both will pop almost at the same time).

After ward it really becomes a micro war, terran will try and delay long enough to get vikings and have that 1 / 2 banshee destroy the toss mineral line, where as toss will try and pull the marines out of place so the stalkers can waltz into the base, its even more micro intensive if that viking pops. Also i find that if you are up against this, try to snipe the factory tech lab, it will make life inifinately easier for you if you dont let siege tech go up.
Harrry
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1 Post
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 10:54:22
August 11 2010 10:53 GMT
#124
Hi, great strat, been trying it out recently with some success.

However, i have one question about the last game you posted against roam. Don't you think it would have been safer to just throw down a robo bay + another robo fac and pump out colossi and switch to stalkers+zlots (blink stalkers to snipe the vikings) from your gates instead of the HT in the late game? i just seems like u put in countless money into the high templars and a good portion of them were not used to their full potential (i.e. getting stormed, getting sniped off, etc)..... and i have a feeling that colossi+stalkers would have destroyed that army comp
K Love
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia45 Posts
August 11 2010 13:14 GMT
#125
LOVE this strat, very creative
Here's my take on it
http://www.mediafire.com/?t9xnt5fka23v5cf
Rank 1 platinum level
Kangaroo Love
RushGG
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom212 Posts
August 11 2010 13:47 GMT
#126
Great guide and this build works really well, I just need to remember to keep up my macro while i am microing!
~ 안녕, 저는 현재 한국어를 배우는 중이에요 :D ~ Follow me on Twitter @RushGeeGee
wongster
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada13 Posts
August 11 2010 17:01 GMT
#127
Great strategy, the second gate, core, and pylon pop exactly at the same time right into 2 stalkers. Props!

Seems to work good some of those fast marauder builds that are so popular since they can't attack your void rays.
The consciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
August 11 2010 17:07 GMT
#128
You should really experiment more with phoenixes during your mid-game tech. They are awesome mid-game if they try to supplement their bioball with tanks, gives you complete map control, are great scouts, shuts down any dropship shenanigans, and can continue to be a great harassing unit even with vikings on the field. In most cases you probably do need that initial void ray first b/c of the threat of a marauder pushes, but once you transition out of voids mid-game due to vikings or turrets or whatever phoenixes really start to shine.

Also if T goes heavy mech with mostly vikings as AA, a switch to mass speed rays can be instant GG. Basically a stargate opening is very viable vs T, especially on particular maps.
divinesage
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore649 Posts
August 11 2010 17:29 GMT
#129
There must be quite a high amount of micro involved at the ramp, since the stalkers have to actually walk uphill to snipe units and this walking up and down of the ramp takes time and disadvantages the toss. Won't the strategy become useless the moment marauders have researched Concussive Shells?

The only map I can currently think of which favours P for this is Kulas, because there is no ramp on that map. In fact I've been abusing 3 gate stalkers on that map to pressure terrans easily simply because of the lack of ramp and this I'm able to snipe off the tech lab without losing units.
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
August 11 2010 18:31 GMT
#130
On August 12 2010 02:29 divinesage wrote:
There must be quite a high amount of micro involved at the ramp, since the stalkers have to actually walk uphill to snipe units and this walking up and down of the ramp takes time and disadvantages the toss. Won't the strategy become useless the moment marauders have researched Concussive Shells?

The only map I can currently think of which favours P for this is Kulas, because there is no ramp on that map. In fact I've been abusing 3 gate stalkers on that map to pressure terrans easily simply because of the lack of ramp and this I'm able to snipe off the tech lab without losing units.


You scouting probe should be able to tell if he's going tech lab first before marine, and while you're on the way to his base with your stalkers you'll get to see either a reaper or a marauder. If he does something insanely fast like 10rax marauder, concussive, marauder you won't be able to do any direct damage, but you'll be in a pretty good shape with a good start on your tech and production you can just delay your next round of gateway units and warp gate research and get your second gas and stargate asap followed by a sentry to buy time if he pushes. If he does a more standard 12rax marauder first on close positions you should be able to hit him before concussive shells are done. In either event send a probe up the ramp first to see if he has shells and take the first volley of shots for your stalkers.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Cham
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
797 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 18:40:07
August 11 2010 18:38 GMT
#131
EDIT mistake!
Cham
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
797 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 18:40:43
August 11 2010 18:39 GMT
#132
Accidently hit quote instead of edit :[ Great strategy seems hard for a lower skill level. Was there even diamond in beta phase 1?
phamou
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada193 Posts
August 11 2010 19:02 GMT
#133
Tried it on few diamond players (I'm plat), and works great. As long as you harass them first before they harass you(send a stalk to their ramp before they get in ur base with reaper or marauder), they'll stay in their base and mass maraud. Meanwhile you just voidray and gg.
Gnial
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada907 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 22:21:50
August 11 2010 22:00 GMT
#134
On August 11 2010 06:44 wackedupwacko wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Having come up against this, as a terran, i found that my 2 rushed cloaked banshee is very effective against this. Early bunker prevents any real stalker action going up the ramp, and when my tank pops out that just stops any stalker harass cold, with 5-6 marines most toss will not send 1 vr alone in as theres too much chance of it dying and opting to wait for the 2nd vr. This allows me to get my 2nd banshee and cloak up (both will pop almost at the same time).

After ward it really becomes a micro war, terran will try and delay long enough to get vikings and have that 1 / 2 banshee destroy the toss mineral line, where as toss will try and pull the marines out of place so the stalkers can waltz into the base, its even more micro intensive if that viking pops. Also i find that if you are up against this, try to snipe the factory tech lab, it will make life inifinately easier for you if you dont let siege tech go up.


I've only gone against the double banshee build a couple of times - but both times were almost exactly as you've described it. Good breakdown of the banshee vs stalker-void builds. However, I don't think 5-6 marines is always enough (it wasn't in either of the games I played). The void ray can abuse any cliffs that have stalkers underneath to whittle down the marines below the ideal amount. On levels like steppes of war or blistering sands, with a very small cliff near the ramp, you can probably get away with making fewer marines if your bunker and production buildings are placed really well. You would probably want to play your marine count a little bit safer on maps like metalopolis or desert oasis though.

On August 11 2010 19:53 Harrry wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Hi, great strat, been trying it out recently with some success.

However, i have one question about the last game you posted against roam. Don't you think it would have been safer to just throw down a robo bay + another robo fac and pump out colossi and switch to stalkers+zlots (blink stalkers to snipe the vikings) from your gates instead of the HT in the late game? i just seems like u put in countless money into the high templars and a good portion of them were not used to their full potential (i.e. getting stormed, getting sniped off, etc)..... and i have a feeling that colossi+stalkers would have destroyed that army comp


My standing army would be stronger with the colossi, especially if he stayed primarily on MMM. However, it would be much less mobile. It probably just comes down to personal preference. I LOVE having a mobility advantage over my opponent - particularly terran which tends to have the stronger standing army. If I throw down pylons everywhere I can expand almost anywhere I want, and in order for him to attack he has to deal with wave after wave of templar/storms on the attack route. A pure gateway composition definitely has a disadvantage over colossi in those big scrimishes though, so perhaps I should try to incorporate both into the late game - especially since they both use the same weapon and armor upgrades.

Go colossi if it makes sense - I think they would have worked in the game against roam.

On August 11 2010 22:14 K Love wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
LOVE this strat, very creative
Here's my take on it
http://www.mediafire.com/?t9xnt5fka23v5cf
Rank 1 platinum level


The proxy pylon was a very cute tactic - that makes me think, on maps with big cliffs like desert oasis or metalopolis, it could be great to build a pylon below the cliff and use the void ray to give vision to warp in up top, with virtually the same effect. I'll add that weapon to my PvT arsenal

P.S. I added your replay to the replays section. Thanks for the contribution

On August 12 2010 02:07 Skyro wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
You should really experiment more with phoenixes during your mid-game tech. They are awesome mid-game if they try to supplement their bioball with tanks, gives you complete map control, are great scouts, shuts down any dropship shenanigans, and can continue to be a great harassing unit even with vikings on the field. In most cases you probably do need that initial void ray first b/c of the threat of a marauder pushes, but once you transition out of voids mid-game due to vikings or turrets or whatever phoenixes really start to shine.

Also if T goes heavy mech with mostly vikings as AA, a switch to mass speed rays can be instant GG. Basically a stargate opening is very viable vs T, especially on particular maps.


Yeah, I'm going to give it a shot in some of my future PvT's - I keep getting matched up against zerg and protoss on the ladder recently so I haven't been able to try many of the new ideas that have been suggested :/

If you have any replays you'd like to share in which you do the stalker into phoenix (or stalker into void ray - phoenix) PM me and hopefully I can get them from you
1, eh? 2, eh? 3, eh?
Gnial
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada907 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 19:11:18
August 13 2010 19:10 GMT
#135
Hey everyone,

JHancho invited me to do some commentaries on the build, so I've posted the links up in a new section just above the replays section called "Commentated Replays". Hope you all enjoy.
1, eh? 2, eh? 3, eh?
Freeborn
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany421 Posts
August 16 2010 02:34 GMT
#136
Dude, I love you

This strategy is almost brilliant. I had quite some problems with PvT especially vs early marauder push or mm + ghost.

I think I won like 7-8 games vs T in a Row using it (I'm now rank ~20 diamond btw).

there are so many cool aspects to it I cant even mention them all.

Foremost: it's really fun to play, and it scales with the amount of micro u put into it.

then the constant harrassment always lets you see what units he has and opens up a different action-oriented kind of game, with few pauses between the skirmishes.

if he goes mass marines you need a LOT of micro and attention but with stalker sentries u should be good, in case of marauders you can just rape his base. tanks usually mean he doesnt have enough marines so you can pick em off with voids.

And making your enemy move his marines back and forth between his mineral line (because you attack his gas) and the front (because of the stalkers), is simply awesome :D

something I like to do is get the +1 air attack at the core while the first or second void is being produced. its just 100-100, much cheaper than another void ray and a charged void ray with +1 does INSANE damage. really.
2 of them charged on the refinery can basically kill incoming marines as quickly as they come in (well almost;)

and even if u dont win instantly, ull have time to expand or get colossi/ HT.

funny thing is in two games i stopped pressuring for a moment and in both games the terran used the time to drop me with shuttles, and we effectively did a base trade. both games the terran built mostly marines so the voids couldn't do as much dmg before he got his medivacs.
but with voids you'll always kill buildings faster

I actually almost like TvP now...
mkchoi0801
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada125 Posts
August 17 2010 01:10 GMT
#137
I just ran into a terran that was expecting this build... He was like 'oh what, a voidray coming now?' LOL so I was shit my plan is exposed. So I quickly transitioned into DT to buy time for storm and rolled him So many people use this build. All my toss friends do. All of them. Every time.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
August 17 2010 21:00 GMT
#138
Sometimes it doesn't even matter if he's expecting it, there's just pressure all through the early game that he HAS to answer or be defeated. With the missile turret strategy, you're even reducing the size of the MMM ball because he has to drop several to cut down on the 1-2 void harass.

Then the transition into chargelots + HT (Which I've always preferred against MMM builds) comes with enough time to get the tech and enough to counter.

Replay:
http://rapidshare.com/files/413553314/Xel_Naga_Caverns_-_PvT_Gn__vs_MMM_turrets.SC2Replay

Mismicro the HTs/Sentries in the first/second big engagement, but still come out ahead.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Nah
Profile Joined February 2010
Poland50 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 22:59:45
August 17 2010 22:50 GMT
#139
Some fun facts about void rays:
* Void Rays have 150 hp and 100 shield, no armor.
* It takes 6 seconds and 50 output dmg to fully charge up.
* It takes 5 seconds and no output dmg to charge down.
* 3 marines do 108-126 dmg during 6 seconds of charging up.
* It takes then 3+3+3 seconds to kill all 3 marines thus taking additional 114-132 dmg (60+36+18 =
114)
* Without charging up the proccess would take 16 seconds and ~225 dmg (about the same amount).

Conclusion:
* Do not engage vs 3 or more marines when not charged up!
Protoss wins it all
Gnial
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada907 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 22:58:48
August 17 2010 22:57 GMT
#140
On August 18 2010 07:50 Nah wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Some fun facts about void rays:
* Void Rays have 150 hp and 100 shield, no armor.
* It takes 50 dmg and 6 second to fully charge up.
* It takes 5 seconds to charge down.
* 3 marines do 108-126 dmg during 6 seconds of charging up
* it takes then 3+3+3 seconds to kill all 3 marines thus taking additional 114-132 dmg (60+36+18 =
114)
*without charging up the proccess would take 16 seconds and ~225 dmg (about the same amount)

Conclusion:
* Do not engage vs 3 or more marines when not charged up!


You forget that the void ray does in fact deal damage while it is charging.

Also, if the marines are hurt already from something such as stalkers harass, they can be killed by void rays even faster.

In addition, it is possible to position your void ray so not all the marines can fire at the same time.

You could also try fazing, to ~double your uncharged (or charged) damage to kill marines faster. I Don't think they've patched that yet.

And finally, you can withdraw with the void ray before it takes hull damage, while still damaging/killing marines.

Conclusion:

Its cool to know that if you directly attack 3 healthy marines, you could be in trouble. I would have figured the number was higher than that. But if you take extra measures against those marines, 1 void ray can kill A LOT of them.
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