EPT[G] Gnial's PvT Stalker-Void Ray Strategy - Page 7
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On August 11 2010 03:28 wongster wrote: Hi everyone, I have a question about the dual stalker opening. Everything seems to be pretty standard up until after the 14 gas. Do you start saving chronoboost right after your second chrono? More importantly, when do you resume, or know to resume probe production? 9 pylon chrono nexus 12 gate scout chrono nexus - start saving chrono? 14 gas 15 gate 15 core 16 pylon 16 build both stalkers chrono gateways - chrono both gateways? resume probe production? On August 03 2010 05:33 Jaeger wrote: About the dual stalker opening. I've been doing something similar for a while that I practiced a lot during the downtime between phase 1 and phase 2 of the beta in a build order tester. The order is similar but not exactly the same 9 pylon chrono nexus 12 gate scout chrono nexus rally 13th probe to vespene geyser 14 gas 15 gate asym should finish, put 2 probes on gas 15 core put worker that built core on gas chrono nexus build probes to 18 pylon when you can (16 or 17) 18 build both stalkers (you should be basically at a perfect 250m 100g when your core finishes) chrono gateway you should be at 21-23 energy on your nexus chrono 2nd gateway since stalkers take more than the full duration of a chrono boost to build both your stalkers come out at the same time and you have a slightly better economy I can post some replays after I get off work if anyone is interested, love this opening If you get a unfavorable split, build your buildings far from your minerals, or get harassed at all by an enemy worker you're probably going to have to cut a probe and build stalkers on 17. If you time it right your gateway core and 2nd pylon all finish together. | ||
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Elanshin
Australia216 Posts
After ward it really becomes a micro war, terran will try and delay long enough to get vikings and have that 1 / 2 banshee destroy the toss mineral line, where as toss will try and pull the marines out of place so the stalkers can waltz into the base, its even more micro intensive if that viking pops. Also i find that if you are up against this, try to snipe the factory tech lab, it will make life inifinately easier for you if you dont let siege tech go up. | ||
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Harrry
Canada1 Post
However, i have one question about the last game you posted against roam. Don't you think it would have been safer to just throw down a robo bay + another robo fac and pump out colossi and switch to stalkers+zlots (blink stalkers to snipe the vikings) from your gates instead of the HT in the late game? i just seems like u put in countless money into the high templars and a good portion of them were not used to their full potential (i.e. getting stormed, getting sniped off, etc)..... and i have a feeling that colossi+stalkers would have destroyed that army comp | ||
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K Love
Australia45 Posts
Here's my take on it http://www.mediafire.com/?t9xnt5fka23v5cf Rank 1 platinum level | ||
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RushGG
United Kingdom212 Posts
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wongster
Canada13 Posts
Seems to work good some of those fast marauder builds that are so popular since they can't attack your void rays. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Also if T goes heavy mech with mostly vikings as AA, a switch to mass speed rays can be instant GG. Basically a stargate opening is very viable vs T, especially on particular maps. | ||
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divinesage
Singapore649 Posts
The only map I can currently think of which favours P for this is Kulas, because there is no ramp on that map. In fact I've been abusing 3 gate stalkers on that map to pressure terrans easily simply because of the lack of ramp and this I'm able to snipe off the tech lab without losing units. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On August 12 2010 02:29 divinesage wrote: There must be quite a high amount of micro involved at the ramp, since the stalkers have to actually walk uphill to snipe units and this walking up and down of the ramp takes time and disadvantages the toss. Won't the strategy become useless the moment marauders have researched Concussive Shells? The only map I can currently think of which favours P for this is Kulas, because there is no ramp on that map. In fact I've been abusing 3 gate stalkers on that map to pressure terrans easily simply because of the lack of ramp and this I'm able to snipe off the tech lab without losing units. You scouting probe should be able to tell if he's going tech lab first before marine, and while you're on the way to his base with your stalkers you'll get to see either a reaper or a marauder. If he does something insanely fast like 10rax marauder, concussive, marauder you won't be able to do any direct damage, but you'll be in a pretty good shape with a good start on your tech and production you can just delay your next round of gateway units and warp gate research and get your second gas and stargate asap followed by a sentry to buy time if he pushes. If he does a more standard 12rax marauder first on close positions you should be able to hit him before concussive shells are done. In either event send a probe up the ramp first to see if he has shells and take the first volley of shots for your stalkers. | ||
Cham
797 Posts
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Cham
797 Posts
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phamou
Canada193 Posts
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Gnial
Canada907 Posts
On August 11 2010 06:44 wackedupwacko wrote: + Show Spoiler + Having come up against this, as a terran, i found that my 2 rushed cloaked banshee is very effective against this. Early bunker prevents any real stalker action going up the ramp, and when my tank pops out that just stops any stalker harass cold, with 5-6 marines most toss will not send 1 vr alone in as theres too much chance of it dying and opting to wait for the 2nd vr. This allows me to get my 2nd banshee and cloak up (both will pop almost at the same time). After ward it really becomes a micro war, terran will try and delay long enough to get vikings and have that 1 / 2 banshee destroy the toss mineral line, where as toss will try and pull the marines out of place so the stalkers can waltz into the base, its even more micro intensive if that viking pops. Also i find that if you are up against this, try to snipe the factory tech lab, it will make life inifinately easier for you if you dont let siege tech go up. I've only gone against the double banshee build a couple of times - but both times were almost exactly as you've described it. Good breakdown of the banshee vs stalker-void builds. However, I don't think 5-6 marines is always enough (it wasn't in either of the games I played). The void ray can abuse any cliffs that have stalkers underneath to whittle down the marines below the ideal amount. On levels like steppes of war or blistering sands, with a very small cliff near the ramp, you can probably get away with making fewer marines if your bunker and production buildings are placed really well. You would probably want to play your marine count a little bit safer on maps like metalopolis or desert oasis though. On August 11 2010 19:53 Harrry wrote: + Show Spoiler + Hi, great strat, been trying it out recently with some success. However, i have one question about the last game you posted against roam. Don't you think it would have been safer to just throw down a robo bay + another robo fac and pump out colossi and switch to stalkers+zlots (blink stalkers to snipe the vikings) from your gates instead of the HT in the late game? i just seems like u put in countless money into the high templars and a good portion of them were not used to their full potential (i.e. getting stormed, getting sniped off, etc)..... and i have a feeling that colossi+stalkers would have destroyed that army comp My standing army would be stronger with the colossi, especially if he stayed primarily on MMM. However, it would be much less mobile. It probably just comes down to personal preference. I LOVE having a mobility advantage over my opponent - particularly terran which tends to have the stronger standing army. If I throw down pylons everywhere I can expand almost anywhere I want, and in order for him to attack he has to deal with wave after wave of templar/storms on the attack route. A pure gateway composition definitely has a disadvantage over colossi in those big scrimishes though, so perhaps I should try to incorporate both into the late game - especially since they both use the same weapon and armor upgrades. Go colossi if it makes sense - I think they would have worked in the game against roam. On August 11 2010 22:14 K Love wrote: + Show Spoiler + LOVE this strat, very creative Here's my take on it http://www.mediafire.com/?t9xnt5fka23v5cf Rank 1 platinum level The proxy pylon was a very cute tactic - that makes me think, on maps with big cliffs like desert oasis or metalopolis, it could be great to build a pylon below the cliff and use the void ray to give vision to warp in up top, with virtually the same effect. I'll add that weapon to my PvT arsenal  P.S. I added your replay to the replays section. Thanks for the contribution  On August 12 2010 02:07 Skyro wrote: + Show Spoiler + You should really experiment more with phoenixes during your mid-game tech. They are awesome mid-game if they try to supplement their bioball with tanks, gives you complete map control, are great scouts, shuts down any dropship shenanigans, and can continue to be a great harassing unit even with vikings on the field. In most cases you probably do need that initial void ray first b/c of the threat of a marauder pushes, but once you transition out of voids mid-game due to vikings or turrets or whatever phoenixes really start to shine. Also if T goes heavy mech with mostly vikings as AA, a switch to mass speed rays can be instant GG. Basically a stargate opening is very viable vs T, especially on particular maps. Yeah, I'm going to give it a shot in some of my future PvT's - I keep getting matched up against zerg and protoss on the ladder recently so I haven't been able to try many of the new ideas that have been suggested :/ If you have any replays you'd like to share in which you do the stalker into phoenix (or stalker into void ray - phoenix) PM me and hopefully I can get them from you | ||
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Gnial
Canada907 Posts
JHancho invited me to do some commentaries on the build, so I've posted the links up in a new section just above the replays section called "Commentated Replays". Hope you all enjoy. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
This strategy is almost brilliant. I had quite some problems with PvT especially vs early marauder push or mm + ghost. I think I won like 7-8 games vs T in a Row using it (I'm now rank ~20 diamond btw). there are so many cool aspects to it I cant even mention them all. Foremost: it's really fun to play, and it scales with the amount of micro u put into it. then the constant harrassment always lets you see what units he has and opens up a different action-oriented kind of game, with few pauses between the skirmishes. if he goes mass marines you need a LOT of micro and attention but with stalker sentries u should be good, in case of marauders you can just rape his base. tanks usually mean he doesnt have enough marines so you can pick em off with voids. And making your enemy move his marines back and forth between his mineral line (because you attack his gas) and the front (because of the stalkers), is simply awesome :D something I like to do is get the +1 air attack at the core while the first or second void is being produced. its just 100-100, much cheaper than another void ray and a charged void ray with +1 does INSANE damage. really. 2 of them charged on the refinery can basically kill incoming marines as quickly as they come in (well almost;) and even if u dont win instantly, ull have time to expand or get colossi/ HT. funny thing is in two games i stopped pressuring for a moment and in both games the terran used the time to drop me with shuttles, and we effectively did a base trade. both games the terran built mostly marines so the voids couldn't do as much dmg before he got his medivacs. but with voids you'll always kill buildings faster I actually almost like TvP now... | ||
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mkchoi0801
Canada125 Posts
So many people use this build. All my toss friends do. All of them. Every time. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Then the transition into chargelots + HT (Which I've always preferred against MMM builds) comes with enough time to get the tech and enough to counter. Replay: http://rapidshare.com/files/413553314/Xel_Naga_Caverns_-_PvT_Gn__vs_MMM_turrets.SC2Replay Mismicro the HTs/Sentries in the first/second big engagement, but still come out ahead. | ||
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Nah
Poland50 Posts
* Void Rays have 150 hp and 100 shield, no armor. * It takes 6 seconds and 50 output dmg to fully charge up. * It takes 5 seconds and no output dmg to charge down. * 3 marines do 108-126 dmg during 6 seconds of charging up. * It takes then 3+3+3 seconds to kill all 3 marines thus taking additional 114-132 dmg (60+36+18 = 114) * Without charging up the proccess would take 16 seconds and ~225 dmg (about the same amount). Conclusion: * Do not engage vs 3 or more marines when not charged up! | ||
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Gnial
Canada907 Posts
On August 18 2010 07:50 Nah wrote: + Show Spoiler + Some fun facts about void rays: * Void Rays have 150 hp and 100 shield, no armor. * It takes 50 dmg and 6 second to fully charge up. * It takes 5 seconds to charge down. * 3 marines do 108-126 dmg during 6 seconds of charging up * it takes then 3+3+3 seconds to kill all 3 marines thus taking additional 114-132 dmg (60+36+18 = 114) *without charging up the proccess would take 16 seconds and ~225 dmg (about the same amount) Conclusion: * Do not engage vs 3 or more marines when not charged up! You forget that the void ray does in fact deal damage while it is charging. Also, if the marines are hurt already from something such as stalkers harass, they can be killed by void rays even faster. In addition, it is possible to position your void ray so not all the marines can fire at the same time. You could also try fazing, to ~double your uncharged (or charged) damage to kill marines faster. I Don't think they've patched that yet. And finally, you can withdraw with the void ray before it takes hull damage, while still damaging/killing marines. Conclusion: Its cool to know that if you directly attack 3 healthy marines, you could be in trouble. I would have figured the number was higher than that. But if you take extra measures against those marines, 1 void ray can kill A LOT of them. | ||
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