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I have hard time seeing why mutaling was somehow hard to counter. Pure gatespam beats it, while puregate doesn't beat roach mass. It's just playing straight to opponent's hands who skip robo imo.
FF hard counters lings so harshly. Blink stalkers own air and lings in small amounts (<50). Also roach+corruptor(+hydra) definately handles the ultimate stalker/colo army better than muta+ling.
It might be I just play roaches more effectively than avg - I've heard from many tosses that they rarely see mass burrow roaches, and it shows in how rarely anyone actually makes a single immo. If I was to play pvz, I'd definately try to find out what his massed unit is before mindlessly going for something else than immos. I've tried masslings to ultras/broods and it's not even funny how bad lings are raped by FF. Also he's not punished for making lots of zlots with minerals if you do lings.
From original pointlist I can't agree on anything  Mutas feel damn vulnerable to anything, sentry/stalker definately being enough, and I don't see why few phoenixes wouldn't do good also if you just use them near your stalkers/cannons. And HTs don't "waste 75 energy" if it ticks even once on some mutas, it's worth it. Because "some" translates to half of the bunch, muta swarm can't just run from storm to another.
Broods are nice in lategame, but I don't think muta upgrades are playing big part there. It's cheaper switch also to go for broods from already made corruptors, that you used as anti-colo.
I also don't see how you could switch TO lingmuta. Lings require upgrades to have any efficiency mid/late, and if they don't have even +1melee they're just cannon fodder. I could however see starting off with fakemutas, killing bunch of probes, making opponent go more stalker/sentry heavy army, then eat him with roach(/ling). But imo that makes you less likely to defend 3rd properly.
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Iv struggled hard against Mutas and im trying to find a decent build to counter some kind of muta build. what iv started to do is once i get my FE up i make a Stargate + Phoenix to scout with, if theres no sign of a muta build i put down robo and gates and if i do see somethings lurking around the corner i keep pumping phoenixes + Stalkers. the thing is i get pinned to my base so badly when i get harassed by the mutas so its impossible for me to expand becouse of the constant ling harass. Late/midd game i just simply get out expod and at some point he just crushes me with eather MASS MUTA or X900000 Hydras from the transition, and theres liturally nothing i can do with it. ofc the Harass from mutas wont be that Effective, but i cant move out eather so he just takes 2-3 expos and finishes me off.
If anyone does have something to "counter" this then Please do share, becouse its a really annoying place to be in fortunally i havent seen alot of players go this yet. just a couple here and there.
Very very strong
Zerg players should try going muta builds more so we can actully test this to see its full potential.
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The only reliable way to deal with Mutalisks is making enough Pheonixes. Blink Stalkers will allow you to defend yourself if you keep them at your base, but not without economy damage. I try to keep pressure on my opponent to keep him from getting Mutalisks because they are simply too difficult to deal with if you are playing defensively.
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Day9 recently did an episode on HuK's phoenix play. He simply shut down the zerg econ and forced hydras. I think that's a pretty good way to beat mutas, considering your phoenixes will be out before he has any mutas whatsoever. It's hard to explain, you should watch the cast!
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Phoenix is the ultimate. I thought ZvP was easy. But ive beeen getting trounced by anyone who opens Phoenix. Try it. Theres nothing i could do. Ive tried roaches. 3 of them die to phoenix on their way to the toss base for the early attack. theres usually only 3 zlots and a cannon tho. speedling/ bling bust gets anhilated by the cannons.....
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...roaches against phoenix?
Game 3 actually is an example of why muta switches wouldn't work, imo, see how Saracen had to pump hydras first to respond to the phoenix, and then to the mass gateway units? Should Hwani had transitioned into colossus sooner, he would've been able to force Z to react again by trying to hive for ultra or going corruptors. It is simply too hard to try to switch to mutes without the opponent being already at a disadvantage. Like Blasius said, if a Z can have a 1k gas surplus while matching P production, the P is in trouble even without mutes.
Also game 4 rep doesn't work for me =/
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On July 18 2010 14:54 MooiSh wrote:
Hey. I have been using Muta-ling as my strategy almost exclusively in ZvP for the last 3 months abusing it's power to the full extent. Unfortunately this composition is not broken in any way as proven by my Protoss practice partner who manages to succsessfully beat with ease any muta ling based play within the first 15 minutes of the game. The 'usual' builds protoss use are simply not the correct direction in my belief to approach a zerg who can potentially Muta-ling, although are not neccessarily completely helpless. I'm not sure my Practice partner will want me sharing a Rep Pack of him vs me, i'll have to ask him first. But believe me, once protoss' start approaching this MU correctly you will see it's far from broken.
One thing i can add however, is that from all my experience in the last 3 months, Archons are the way to stop muta ling. No questions asked. If your examples of Archons failing against muta ling come from any situation in which the Zerg has managed to produce over 20 Mutalisks against low archon counts, it is illogical to expect the archon to be at all effective. Archons are the viable solution to this build, but it simply comes down to not letting the Zerg Mass those Mutalisks.
Im sure he wont mind if you upload a recent, representative replay to back your statements.
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My Experience with Muta/Ling so far has been that it only works if i either get quite far ahead at the beginning, or if my opponent is inferior to me. Against a standard 10 pylon 10 gate into forge FE opening you do little damage and just die to the 8 gate push.
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I think the most realistic way to fight this is with gateway units. You'll need blink stalkers, guardian shield, and zealots with +1 or +2 (whatever you need to 2 shot lings). While using blink and forcefields to stave off the zergling surrounds on your stalkers, use the zealots as a meatshield and focus fire the mutas. Best chance, a stargate switch most likely won't work.
I've played HwaNi before, he is a very good toss.
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The archon splash is the same. TI just try in the unit tester and if u pack mutas together, archons kill them all instantly.
The only thing that make archon not be the anwser to muta anymore is the fact that u don't stack muta.
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Why are your replays saying version 21? I can't watch them
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are archons worth the 100 minerals and 300 gas? plus storm juice
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As a zerg player, i used to go exclusively muta-ling in the midgame, the only reason I don't is if the protoss gets two stargates up before you get your spire up there is no way in hell you are going to be able retain air control, ive lost to protoss players scouting my spire, then in response throwing down two stargates and pumping phoenixes, if they are microed well enough you do not need more than 1 phoenix per 3 muta.
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i find collosus stalker to be good
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I find muta ling to be a great opener because it forces the protoss to not go colossus (if they do you should have enough mutas to kill the stalkers and then eat the colossi at your leisure).
If they go stargate just do a tech switch to hydra (which is a pretty easy switch I find) and keep your mutas back a little. Remember also that phoenixes have to be somewhat microed vs muta unless he has lots of them (in which case that becomes a ton of resources wasted with the hydra switch).
What it comes down to is that mutas are better against most things than phoenixes are against anything but mutas and the switch from stargate to colossus is much harder than the switch from muta to hydra. Zerg are adaptable, so adapt, if ever the phoenixes are taken down (because of over committing them or losing them while harassing) make sure to have a few mutas harass to force more of them out.
The other option is to just make 3 corruptors and run them with the 6ish mutas. They are the death of phoenixes and there is no tech cost for you.
Yet another thing to bear in mind is that if you force colossi out you already have the spire to make corruptors meaning that there is no tech cost there either.
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I dont see your point at all. In my experience nearly EVERY damn thing beats muta/ling.. even some decently microed stalkers with few zeals and storm do fine.. I've come to the conclusion, that mutas are dead in my zvp matchup, if I cant surprise my opponnent.
They are way too weak to do anything to a decently formed protoss army plus phoenix rape them hard (mutas dont even hit them, if you micro half decent) so imo your problem is selfmade and should be solved by just playing better
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I can just watch the 4th game which is imho not very significant.
Btw an idea against these Spine Plants may be an observer with VR to snipe the tumors.
Although I can understand the problem and responses here, I wonder why so much ppl persist on their Stalker/Colossi/Sentry Ball of Death.
Currently PvZ is my absolute favority matchup, with the following build:
10 Gate Zealot Pressure into FE wall in at the 4:00 Min Mark followed by Double Gas.
Stargate with the first 150 Gas and CB a Phoenix to scout your opponents Transition (pops around 7:00). Generally get more Phoenixes and Transition to Speedzealot+HT asap.
Upgrade Ground Weapons, Air Weapons and SHIELDS every time you can afford it. The Reason for it is that Armor is virtually useless to your Archons while all your Units benefit from Shields and in addition it bolsters the durability of your wall.
If he goes mass roaches (all in'ish), build stalker to repel them at your wall, CB a VR after some phoenix, rush his base with your Air-Units, lift up his queens and kick his Hatch/Lair -> gg
If he goes fast Hydras repel them with your initial Phoenixes and Groundunits, finish your HT Transition and win due superior upgrades, storm and a crapload of Units.
If he goes Muta/Ling just continue Zealot/Phoenix/HT production and you might be fine.
If he goes Hydra/Roach switch to Stalker/HT and win again due superior upgrades, storm and a crapload of Units.
In any circumstances if he is going for Broodlords it opens you an excellent timing window to punish him, because corruptors cant catch phoenixes and have no colossi to kill, so they are pretty useless until their morph is finished.
If he is going for Ultralisks, just continue Zealots and HT(Archons). Ultralisk are not the flavor of the month against this composition.
Infestors should not be a huge problem aswell, just lift them up while engaging, or feedbeck em.
And also important is, to make use of your phoenixes. Harass his Drones/Queens, kill overlords, deny XelNaga Scouts, scout for enemy expansions etc
Also spread Pylons around the map, to warp in small zealot harassments and let them join your army afterwards if possible.
The responding transitions of this build are such so smooth and efficient, its so flexible, mobile and strong, I cant even understand why Colossi/Stalker/Sentry is so favored.
I did not play SC1, but I heard a lot about the PvZ Evolution and i think there is a reason, the FE into fast Corsair Play became Standard and therefore cant understand why so few ppl give it a try at this game.
At least I am _possessed_ by this idea and therefore I am glad that I found a way to make it work, at least in Plat League right know and hopefully with some refinement and improvement, soon in Diamond League (65% Winrate & Rank4 but no Promotion yet  ).
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First off, I'd like to say that most of you that are saying that Muta/Ling is incredibly easy to deal with have not actually faced a zerg who executes it well or are confusing it with some early muta/ling push. Plexa is talking about mid to late game mass speedlings with 20+ mutalisks. Mutalisks in SC2 are much more resilient than in SC1, and can take down stalkers and archons with relative ease in such large numbers. MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, they allow the zerg complete map control, containing the protoss and allowing them to mass expand. Trying to keep up with zerg production on fewer bases will result in the P not being able to get enough stalkers/pheonix/archons to deal with the mutalisks.
Therefore, I completely agree with Plexa in that P is basically at the mercy of Muta/ling should the Zerg reach critical mass with his mutas. However, I believe I have a solution.
The gist of the build goes like this: Forge Fast Expand (2 Cannons -> Nexus -> Gate), then quick Cybercore, then Stargate and robo. Pump CB Pheonixes out. The zerg, unless going some crazy 1 hatch muta build, will not have enough mutas to deal with the pheonixes. Scout with your pheonixes and do a little harassment, but it is IMPERATIVE that you do not let your initial Pheonixes die. Remember, there are no scourge in SC2, so a little time and management will allow you to keep most of your Pheonixes alive. Remember, however, that you need to use the Pheonixes as a scout primarily and a harassment unit secondarily. Scout for tech switches and EXPANSIONS.
Zerg usually responds in the following way.
1. Zerg correctly switches to hydras in order to counter the Pheonix threat.
What I like to do when I see the Hydralisk Den going is to start getting Collossi with Stalkers. The stalkers are there just incase the zerg also makes corruptors. Build a Twilight council and begin researching charge, adding zealots to your army as well. When the zerg finally tries to push and gain a third base, you should have an ideal unit composition to crush the zerg army, or at least win by the skin of your teeth. Use this powerful midgame army to expand yourself, for your pheonix should still allow you to have MAP CONTROL.
2. Zerg decides to continue to get mutas and turtles.
Take the map while continuing to produe hydras. The protoss now has map control, for the zerg cannot simply send mutas out to destroy expansions, as the high pheonix count will render that impossible for a very long time, until the protoss economy becomes too strong.
Basically this strat revolves around quick scouting in order to get the ideal composition to gain a substantial lead in the early-mid game. Use this lead and the mobility of the pheonixes to secure an economic edge as well that will carry on into the late game.
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Xanatoss that sounds very interesting, and i would love to get back to phoenix centric play. Do you have any replays of this strategy?
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I do, but I doubt my Games are a reference due to the fact that neither me (yet ) , nor most of my opponents are Diamond League.
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EPT
