|
This is an excellent example of a terrible post. Plexa posts a wonderful and detailed OP, and includes analysis and replays, and you simply dismiss all of that based on your gold-level experience. It doesn't even cross your mind to watch the replays, much less even possibly consider the fact that the OP might be a decent player, and that your limited experience might be, well, limited. But no! The only logical conclusion is that both Plexa and HwaNi are such bad Protosses that they lose to muta/ling.
I do not wanna sound bitchy but can you somehow enforce the need for replay rule somewhat harder? Its so annoying piling through threads that have a good discussion going and having to read posts by ppl that think plat and low rank diamond league (or even gold) means something and that they know what they are talking about. I know a few names only on the forums I would take seriously and that I "listen to" and it makes it hard for me to each any conclusions. And you watch replays finally posted and realize that it must be from gold league or smth by the poor play.
I was diamond phase 1 and I consider myself a pretty bad player. I do not think ppl realize how bad the play is below diamond. All you need to get to diamond is good macro and decent micro, how you do it (what build) matters very little up until that point. Or you can have a decently OP build and just do that over and over, that will also take you far. Doesn't mean its good on high level play though
back on topic.
I couldn't watch replay 1-3 again it says its game version 0.21?
Game 4 - Brink vs Xiaozi, fairly interesting use of Mutalisks. Results in a gg, so you mayaswell watch it anyway.
I do not see how the mutas helped him winning this game at all? I think he was lucky that going mutas didn't completely cost him the game. He killed something like 1 pylon with them? Am I missing something?
|
I love love love muta ling. I don't even play Zerg but when I play against muta ling I feel so helpless. I won't pretend to have the insight to criticize the OP or his practice partner, but I love muta ling and I hope to see it used more. When I'm Terran it keeps me contained to two bases while they expand like crazy. When I'm Protoss i often open phoenixes against Zerg and it works well, but that's platinum so it doesn't mean a whole lot. What I like about the Phoenix opening is that it gives you map control which is awesome agaist Zerg, but the better players get infestors and FG them. I don't think anyone has mentioned that yet but FG really hurts.
|
On July 19 2010 04:00 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 02:45 kNyTTyM wrote:On July 19 2010 02:27 Floophead_III wrote:
I've done testing a long time ago before people realized that muta/ling was even viable. The solution is zealots+ht/archon. Yes, 1 archon doesn't beat 15 mutalisks. But 1 archon will obliterate 3. They're very cost effective, decimate lings, and when army sizes grow the addition of 3-4 storms from just 2 HTs is enough to turn the tide so massively in favor of protoss it makes muta/ling worthless.
Your problem isn't that you went archons. Your problem is you didn't go archons + storm. What exactly do you do with that army? The annoying thing about fast mutalisks is you are forced to keep forces in your main to defend counters. Cannons are ok to buy time but if 15 mutalisks start bouncing in and out of your main they are going to find stuff to kill. This forces you to leave a templar at home because there just isn't any way you can get back fast enough especially if your main antiair is an archon. So the result is protoss sitting at the natural until he can spare 1-2 templar at his main and then he takes his 3rd which he must sit his main army at until he gets cannons + a ht. Otherwise mutalisks run in, kill it and leave. All the while zerg should have fully saturated 3 bases and taking the fourth at the island. You have a gigantic mineral surplus with zealot/HT/archon. You can plop down 5 cannons, and if zerg is really stupid enough to try to backstab with mutas you can push out right for his main and steamroll him. Sure he can spend 10 mutas to kill those cannons making your main useless, but you just killed his entire production. At some point you just have to shift the pressure and if he wants to base trade let him because your army is much much better. A passive protoss is a losing protoss. Also, forgot to mention that when you have instant warpin storms (amulet and storm are researched) you can safely move out because you can just warp in some HT if he tries to backstab and bam his mutas are stormed.
Mineral surplus is good but 5 cannons actually doesn't cover your whole main. You also have to cannon up the natural just as hard. Zerg's response to any kind of aggression is spam sunkens before mutalisks even start harassing. It is something xiaozi did and I am pretty sure it was due to people trying to mass gateway counter him. Shifting pressure onto the zerg is probably the hardest thing against a heavy mutalisk opponent.
I thought this was a good scbw video that relates. It is savior vs free on zodiac back in gom s3 msl. You can see what a mass mobile mutalisk ball does without unlimited select, increased storm strength, and better archons
+ Show Spoiler +
|
Hi, I am HwaNi who played Saracen in game 3.
I think I should have transitioned to robo earlier, and I think I could had that game.
I really think the only solution for that build is to go pheonix first, forcing zerg to get hydra, then switch to robo.
But, muta/ling is still tricky for me, and I am bad.
|
On July 19 2010 06:44 hwanikani wrote:
Hi, I am HwaNi who played Saracen in game 3.
I think I should have transitioned to robo earlier, and I think I could had that game.
I really think the only solution for that build is to go pheonix first, forcing zerg to get hydra, then switch to robo.
But, muta/ling is still tricky for me, and I am bad.
Can quick phoenix do well against an outmacroing zerg though? It seems that even though phoenixes beat mutas flawlessly on paper, but fall to zerg players who micro their mutalisks due to phoenixes being generally outnumbered.
At least that is my personal experience.
|
On July 19 2010 04:50 Izzachar wrote:
I do not see how the mutas helped him winning this game at all? I think he was lucky that going mutas didn't completely cost him the game. He killed something like 1 pylon with them? Am I missing something?
I couldn't move out because mutalisk counter was always on my mind. Think of it like brood war Terran versus Zerg. The original purpose of 3 hatch mutalisks was to contain until you got lurkers and a 3rd while forcing as many turrets as possible. In the rep he bounced in and out so I feared counters and put up extra cannons + left templars at home. Meanwhile he expands and continues harassing.
Here is a zvp I played today using mutalisks on LT.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ij97b9u6jhqibup
|
Won't Collo + Stalker + Sentry own this build? Sentries can throw up force fields while stalkers shoot down mutas and collo micros away from lings. Trust me, collo will own anything on the ground, and since it has fairly high HP, it can tank a lot of shots and get more shots down before it dies.
|
On July 19 2010 08:55 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 04:50 Izzachar wrote:
I do not see how the mutas helped him winning this game at all? I think he was lucky that going mutas didn't completely cost him the game. He killed something like 1 pylon with them? Am I missing something? I couldn't move out because mutalisk counter was always on my mind. Think of it like brood war Terran versus Zerg. The original purpose of 3 hatch mutalisks was to contain until you got lurkers and a 3rd while forcing as many turrets as possible. In the rep he bounced in and out so I feared counters and put up extra cannons + left templars at home. Meanwhile he expands and continues harassing. Here is a zvp I played today using mutalisks on LT. http://www.mediafire.com/?ij97b9u6jhqibup
Thanks for reply (and replay)! =) (annoyingly pach 18 hasnt seeded on EU?! so I cant watch)
Ah I first thought that the cannons and leaving a HT or 2 behind would have been enough and you could have just moved out a bit earlier and it would have hurt him more at that point. But I totally disregarded the fact that you obviously do not know if there are more mutas coming to reinforce and that could have meant loosing your probe line I guess.
|
Problem listed arises when you let Z expand unharassed in early game. Good use of gate units (including DT or HT & blink stalkers) early will put you in much better mineral shape and able to compete using your blink stalkers, a few pheonix/cannons, and you can morph your early HT/DT investments into archons if he really commits to mutas.
|
On July 19 2010 08:36 Bair wrote:
Can quick phoenix do well against an outmacroing zerg though? It seems that even though phoenixes beat mutas flawlessly on paper, but fall to zerg players who micro their mutalisks due to phoenixes being generally outnumbered.
At least that is my personal experience.
Phoenix micro >>>>>>>>> muta micro.
Phoenix move faster than mutas, and can shoot while running away. I've been doing very well with a 1-base mutaling build against protoss (expand just after my first batch of mutalisks is out, which is usually 5-6 mutas), but earlier today played against a protoss who built an early startgate. My first 5 mutas lost one and were unable to kill his pheonix, even though I caught him by surprise from behind while he was overlord hunting. This was really the first time I'd seen anybody build a lot of phoenix against me, and people who build not very many phoenix have been killed pretty handily in the past, so I kept building mutas expecting to be able to overwhelm him. He just threw down a second stargate (we were both on 2 bases at this point, with my 3rd going up). Every phoenix/muta clash, I came out a pretty big loser. He'd have to start running first, but then I'd have to stop chasing cause he was still shooting at me while running, and I couldn't ever catch up. So although it felt like I should have had map control, I really didn't, because even though he couldn't stand and fight, I couldn't chase.
I would have to say it appears phoenix can do VERY well against mutas even if they're signifcantly outnumbered.
|
On July 19 2010 09:50 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 08:36 Bair wrote:
Can quick phoenix do well against an outmacroing zerg though? It seems that even though phoenixes beat mutas flawlessly on paper, but fall to zerg players who micro their mutalisks due to phoenixes being generally outnumbered.
At least that is my personal experience. Phoenix micro >>>>>>>>> muta micro. Phoenix move faster than mutas, and can shoot while running away. I've been doing very well with a 1-base mutaling build against protoss (expand just after my first batch of mutalisks is out, which is usually 5-6 mutas), but earlier today played against a protoss who built an early startgate. My first 5 mutas lost one and were unable to kill his pheonix, even though I caught him by surprise from behind while he was overlord hunting. This was really the first time I'd seen anybody build a lot of phoenix against me, and people who build not very many phoenix have been killed pretty handily in the past, so I kept building mutas expecting to be able to overwhelm him. He just threw down a second stargate (we were both on 2 bases at this point, with my 3rd going up). Every phoenix/muta clash, I came out a pretty big loser. He'd have to start running first, but then I'd have to stop chasing cause he was still shooting at me while running, and I couldn't ever catch up. So although it felt like I should have had map control, I really didn't, because even though he couldn't stand and fight, I couldn't chase. I would have to say it appears phoenix can do VERY well against mutas even if they're signifcantly outnumbered.
I would actually say that muta micro and phoenix micro are about even early on. The mutalisks run, the phoenixes follow, and the mutas double back and get a focused shot on a phoenix before the p player can react. Rinse and repeat. Never ever chase phoenixes. Go for his base and force him to come to you.
Mutalisks are the bigger threat as far as harassment goes as well. I will gladly let 6phoenixes run free in my base if I have 6 mutas running free in his. Mutalisks can even fight off static d by taking out pylons and cannons.
Phoenix with their moving shot are not the iwin button many players seem to think.
|
dude this actually works i tried it against 2 Protoss dues and won both....
|
On July 19 2010 10:38 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 09:50 Skrag wrote:On July 19 2010 08:36 Bair wrote:
Can quick phoenix do well against an outmacroing zerg though? It seems that even though phoenixes beat mutas flawlessly on paper, but fall to zerg players who micro their mutalisks due to phoenixes being generally outnumbered.
At least that is my personal experience. Phoenix micro >>>>>>>>> muta micro. Phoenix move faster than mutas, and can shoot while running away. I've been doing very well with a 1-base mutaling build against protoss (expand just after my first batch of mutalisks is out, which is usually 5-6 mutas), but earlier today played against a protoss who built an early startgate. My first 5 mutas lost one and were unable to kill his pheonix, even though I caught him by surprise from behind while he was overlord hunting. This was really the first time I'd seen anybody build a lot of phoenix against me, and people who build not very many phoenix have been killed pretty handily in the past, so I kept building mutas expecting to be able to overwhelm him. He just threw down a second stargate (we were both on 2 bases at this point, with my 3rd going up). Every phoenix/muta clash, I came out a pretty big loser. He'd have to start running first, but then I'd have to stop chasing cause he was still shooting at me while running, and I couldn't ever catch up. So although it felt like I should have had map control, I really didn't, because even though he couldn't stand and fight, I couldn't chase. I would have to say it appears phoenix can do VERY well against mutas even if they're signifcantly outnumbered. I would actually say that muta micro and phoenix micro are about even early on. The mutalisks run, the phoenixes follow, and the mutas double back and get a focused shot on a phoenix before the p player can react. Rinse and repeat. Never ever chase phoenixes. Go for his base and force him to come to you. Mutalisks are the bigger threat as far as harassment goes as well. I will gladly let 6phoenixes run free in my base if I have 6 mutas running free in his. Mutalisks can even fight off static d by taking out pylons and cannons. Phoenix with their moving shot are not the iwin button many players seem to think.
The whole point of the phoenix is to shoot down your mutalisks. Phoenixes are incredibly good at this on a cost for cost basis. If anything, this advantage is accentuated at smaller numbers of mutas/phoenixes. Harassment is a secondary objective after the mutalisk force has been destroyed.
Also, I'm not sure how you think that your mutas are going to get a focused shot on a phoenix without taking serious damage. The protoss player doesn't even have to react; his phoenixes will shoot at your mutalisks automatically. If the protoss player is paying attention, you won't be able to run away after getting that one shot off, and you'll lose all of your mutalisks if you don't have a vastly superior force.
|
My two cents - If you are going muta/ling against zealot/archon, throw some banelings into the mix. 10-15 banelings will pretty much eat up the zealots, and only cost 8 supply if its a maxed out situation.
|
On July 19 2010 10:50 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 10:38 Bair wrote:On July 19 2010 09:50 Skrag wrote:On July 19 2010 08:36 Bair wrote:
Can quick phoenix do well against an outmacroing zerg though? It seems that even though phoenixes beat mutas flawlessly on paper, but fall to zerg players who micro their mutalisks due to phoenixes being generally outnumbered.
At least that is my personal experience. Phoenix micro >>>>>>>>> muta micro. Phoenix move faster than mutas, and can shoot while running away. I've been doing very well with a 1-base mutaling build against protoss (expand just after my first batch of mutalisks is out, which is usually 5-6 mutas), but earlier today played against a protoss who built an early startgate. My first 5 mutas lost one and were unable to kill his pheonix, even though I caught him by surprise from behind while he was overlord hunting. This was really the first time I'd seen anybody build a lot of phoenix against me, and people who build not very many phoenix have been killed pretty handily in the past, so I kept building mutas expecting to be able to overwhelm him. He just threw down a second stargate (we were both on 2 bases at this point, with my 3rd going up). Every phoenix/muta clash, I came out a pretty big loser. He'd have to start running first, but then I'd have to stop chasing cause he was still shooting at me while running, and I couldn't ever catch up. So although it felt like I should have had map control, I really didn't, because even though he couldn't stand and fight, I couldn't chase. I would have to say it appears phoenix can do VERY well against mutas even if they're signifcantly outnumbered. I would actually say that muta micro and phoenix micro are about even early on. The mutalisks run, the phoenixes follow, and the mutas double back and get a focused shot on a phoenix before the p player can react. Rinse and repeat. Never ever chase phoenixes. Go for his base and force him to come to you. Mutalisks are the bigger threat as far as harassment goes as well. I will gladly let 6phoenixes run free in my base if I have 6 mutas running free in his. Mutalisks can even fight off static d by taking out pylons and cannons. Phoenix with their moving shot are not the iwin button many players seem to think. The whole point of the phoenix is to shoot down your mutalisks. Phoenixes are incredibly good at this on a cost for cost basis. If anything, this advantage is accentuated at smaller numbers of mutas/phoenixes. Harassment is a secondary objective after the mutalisk force has been destroyed. Also, I'm not sure how you think that your mutas are going to get a focused shot on a phoenix without taking serious damage. The protoss player doesn't even have to react; his phoenixes will shoot at your mutalisks automatically. If the protoss player is paying attention, you won't be able to run away after getting that one shot off, and you'll lose all of your mutalisks if you don't have a vastly superior force.
Nonono, you misunderstand me. Phoenixes are indeed one of the best counters to mutalisks in the game, but the presence of phoenixes on the field does not make mutalisks powerless, that is all I am saying.
You can micro mutalisks to be able to hit a phoenix (and get a single hit, maybe two depending on lag and reflexes) as a way to combat phoenix with mutas. Generally the damage is balanced by the fact that the nix's are outnumbered.
|
On July 19 2010 10:57 RMmanlots wrote:
My two cents - If you are going muta/ling against zealot/archon, throw some banelings into the mix. 10-15 banelings will pretty much eat up the zealots, and only cost 8 supply if its a maxed out situation.
That's why you need storm, storm > banelings big time.
|
On July 19 2010 10:57 RMmanlots wrote:
My two cents - If you are going muta/ling against zealot/archon, throw some banelings into the mix. 10-15 banelings will pretty much eat up the zealots, and only cost 8 supply if its a maxed out situation.
The Archons would soak up a lot of the baneling damage being so fat and non-light however. Not sure if it'd be cost effective.
But on topic while definitely in a vacuum phoenixes do very well vs mutas, zergs ability to tech switch quickly means you have to be very careful not to overproduce phoenixes. If you were already going for a phoenix build sure, make a few more but tossing down 2 stargates and massing phoenixes as a reaction to mutas isn't all that effective if they tech switch. Blink generally far more cost effective
There's really 2 things you have to keep in mind if you see zerg massing mutas:
1) Make it dangerous for them to attempt harass either via blink stalkers or phoenixes who can pick off a couple of mutas here or there as they run away, coupled with a few cannons if necessary.
2) Don't let yourself be contained and give up map control as this will be your death sentence. You don't have to always move out with your entire army. Leave a few stalkers/sentries back with some cannons. Remember that mutas aren't great in head-to-head battles, you can get by w/ not bringing your entire army.
It is one of the reasons I like going for phoenixes on scrap station since it is hard to deny their FE and very tempting to go 2-base muta. Going quick phoenixes discourages that, and then I can transition into HT or colossi as they usually end up going mass hydra.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 19 2010 04:50 Izzachar wrote:Show nested quote +
This is an excellent example of a terrible post. Plexa posts a wonderful and detailed OP, and includes analysis and replays, and you simply dismiss all of that based on your gold-level experience. It doesn't even cross your mind to watch the replays, much less even possibly consider the fact that the OP might be a decent player, and that your limited experience might be, well, limited. But no! The only logical conclusion is that both Plexa and HwaNi are such bad Protosses that they lose to muta/ling.
I do not wanna sound bitchy but can you somehow enforce the need for replay rule somewhat harder? Its so annoying piling through threads that have a good discussion going and having to read posts by ppl that think plat and low rank diamond league (or even gold) means something and that they know what they are talking about. I know a few names only on the forums I would take seriously and that I "listen to" and it makes it hard for me to each any conclusions. And you watch replays finally posted and realize that it must be from gold league or smth by the poor play. I was diamond phase 1 and I consider myself a pretty bad player. I do not think ppl realize how bad the play is below diamond. All you need to get to diamond is good macro and decent micro, how you do it (what build) matters very little up until that point. Or you can have a decently OP build and just do that over and over, that will also take you far. Doesn't mean its good on high level play though While I don't profess to be an excellent player, I do believe that muta/ling is playable on both sides of the matchup. This is regardless of rank. I wish more people would upload replays to back up what they are saying - both the winning games and the losing ones. The only way to truly understand protoss vs muta/ling (from both sides of the matchup) is if people are prepared to post up their games and we can discuss the strengths and weaknesses of their approaches.
For instance, at the moment I am trying to work blink stalkers as my main PvZ build, with a 1gate pressure into VR as my variant. From the blink build, I'm finding that zergs really shy away from Mutalisks even if they have a spire out. Using blink the idea is to not lose stalkers and they build up to critical mass, and then with sentry/colo you're able to deal with anything the zerg is able to throw at you on the ground. While Zergs don't go muta/ling (which I think would still be valid against this) they really try to avoid it at all cost since blinking stalkers (as they build in numbers, hence why so important not to lose any) really rape any kind of mutalisk switches.
I would upload the replay, but there isn't much point since he doesn't actually build mutalisks and it's a fairly standard game (if there is interest, i will though).
This doesn't *solve* mutaling, but gives you a playstyle which Zergs tend to not make mutalisks against you.
I'm still thinking about blink stalker into DT/expo as an opening as well. This would be a lot stronger against muta/ling builds, but I'm a little concerned about Hydra with this. No zerg practice partners on atm so I can't test this.
I'm still pretty sceptical about phoenixs. At the moment it feels like stalker/sentry/colo is as solid as phoenix against muta/ling - however phoenixs really do not fit with my style. SC2 is still at a point where style matters a lot (for instance, you can't play a VR build unless it's in your style else you'll die).So yea, phoenix works for players like Nony, they don't for me - with that said theres still a lot of discussion from both sides about this. Both Zerg vs Phoenix and Phoenix vs Zerg.
|
Whynot just go zealot+ blink stalker and attack his base rather than get phoenixes.. works for me. Guy went mutaling vs me last game and unpowered everything in my base but my cannons protecting probes so I went to his base and owned him was an easy win since zealot beat zerglings and stalkers beat mutas. I only watched game 3 but if hwanni wouldve just spent his stargate+phoenix money on gateway units and attacked a little sooner wouldve been an easy win just like mine was.
If you get your bases up at same time then protoss will always be ahead till he gets another.. and then if he does just go attack at that time since you will still have your lead for a bit..
I used to go 1 base phoenix vs zerg to contain him while I expand but that gives him such an economic lead to the zerg if he defends it good.. but now I am liking the 10 gate zealot pressure to forge FE. Wont let him expand before you but gives him map control.. just dont let him macro up by making early attacks with small armies just to keep pressure / checking to make sure he isnt expanding everywhere or something..
|
While I see the build being annoying, I would think that any outright push would destroy the Zerg. The build gives you the best map control but a weak army. Couldn't a Protoss go Mass Blink Stalker + Colossi and push out when he has +2 Weapon Upgrade to one shot Zerglings with Colossi. He might not even need the upgrade.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
