EPTscouting muta is pretty easy because if you see mass lings with your probes, you can adequately prepare with double stargate and charge.
[D] PvZ Muta/Ling - Page 13
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Tossup
United States208 Posts
scouting muta is pretty easy because if you see mass lings with your probes, you can adequately prepare with double stargate and charge. | ||
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-Frog-
United States514 Posts
On November 06 2010 13:19 kcdc wrote: I've recently had a lot of success against muta-ling by going double gas 3-gate sentry expand, adding 2 more gates and pushing out with a small sentry-stalker push to slow droning, and adding a robo and a twilight council during the push. The robo keeps you safe if they go roach/hydra, and you can quickly research blink if you see them defending with crawlers and lings, indicating mutas are going to pop shortly. When I see the speedling/crawler defense, I chrono out blink and get 1 cannon in each mineral line, and split my stalkers into 2 control groups. Once you get the timings down, it's possible to get the poke done and be back in time to lose little to nothing to muta harass. At this point, you need to rush out psi storm as quickly as possible as you really can't leave your base without it, and Z will most likely be setting up his third while you're contained on 2 bases. Fortunately, sentry/blink-stalker/stormer is ridiculously efficient against muta-ling, and a timing push at completion of storm should deal big damage. I wouldn't recommend trying to take your third until Z has committed his units to defense as it will be a free kill if you start the nexus while you're setting out. You'll also want to check mid-game upgrades on the lings and mutas as this will give you a good idea whether Z will favor ultras or broodlords in the late game. The basic gameplan is 3-gate expand/pressure -> defend with blink stalkers -> push with psi storm and take 3rd -> add immortals/void rays to deal with Z T3. Also, feel free to storm your own units if the mutas sit on top of you. The mutas will be more clustered than your units, are more expensive than your units, have lower health than your units, and you know where the next storm will be making storm dodging easy. Even if you just land 3 storms and each does the minimum damage before the mutas move out, your blink stalkers will easily clean up. This is great advice, I'm a zerg player and when I go muta/ling this is the strategy that is the most effective against it. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On November 06 2010 13:19 kcdc wrote: I've recently had a lot of success against muta-ling by going double gas 3-gate sentry expand, adding 2 more gates and pushing out with a small sentry-stalker push to slow droning, and adding a robo and a twilight council during the push. The robo keeps you safe if they go roach/hydra, and you can quickly research blink if you see them defending with crawlers and lings, indicating mutas are going to pop shortly. When I see the speedling/crawler defense, I chrono out blink and get 1 cannon in each mineral line, and split my stalkers into 2 control groups. Once you get the timings down, it's possible to get the poke done and be back in time to lose little to nothing to muta harass. At this point, you need to rush out psi storm as quickly as possible as you really can't leave your base without it, and Z will most likely be setting up his third while you're contained on 2 bases. Fortunately, sentry/blink-stalker/stormer is ridiculously efficient against muta-ling, and a timing push at completion of storm should deal big damage. I wouldn't recommend trying to take your third until Z has committed his units to defense as it will be a free kill if you start the nexus while you're setting out. You'll also want to check mid-game upgrades on the lings and mutas as this will give you a good idea whether Z will favor ultras or broodlords in the late game. The basic gameplan is 3-gate expand/pressure -> defend with blink stalkers -> push with psi storm and take 3rd -> add immortals/void rays to deal with Z T3. Also, feel free to storm your own units if the mutas sit on top of you. The mutas will be more clustered than your units, are more expensive than your units, have lower health than your units, and you know where the next storm will be making storm dodging easy. Even if you just land 3 storms and each does the minimum damage before the mutas move out, your blink stalkers will easily clean up. Do you have some replays of this? I'd definitely love to take a look. Thanks! | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-162497.jpg) We have no answer to mutas, I know I didn't play perfect that game, but I outmined him by 6k and was just crushed by 1-0 mutas compared to 3-1, everything. | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
I open 14 pool, 15 hatch; however, when the 9 scout reaches my base at about 4, the protoss makes damn sure it's a hassle to get the hatch down. Furthermore: he opens by putting 2 pylons and a cannon at the bottom of my natural. If the zerg wanted to creep tumor his way to his ramp, then build a crawler, to deal with this, this would delay his 2nd base far too much. So: with time on his mind, I, the zerg, build a roach warren. BING BING BIGN you have an advantage. See if I go roach warren, I have to make roaches to make it useful. Roaches cost gas. So if you keep zealot pressure up, he will need to make roaches to counter you. Now what you may ask? Well now he still hasn't gotten his lair, still is on one to two gas, and most importantly: you now have a stargate. Phoenix harassment killing the overlords causes a major stop in the economy as he can't power any units out if you kill his overlords. Believe me, this happens every game, I know that this remains true. So: what position are we in now? a 1-2 base protoss with tier 2 tech vs. a zerg who is on 2 bases that are only partially being mined and frantically building overlords to cope with your phoenixes, not to mention lairing for hydralisks so that he can get your damn phoenixes out of there. I think you can handle the game from there. Fact of the matter is you dictate his playing dramatically by doing these things. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 08 2010 03:25 Jeffbelittle wrote: Well, I am a 1400 point diamond zerg player, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt; however, I will tell you what has worked in the past to prevent muta/ling success: I open 14 pool, 15 hatch; however, when the 9 scout reaches my base at about 4, the protoss makes damn sure it's a hassle to get the hatch down. Furthermore: he opens by putting 2 pylons and a cannon at the bottom of my natural. If the zerg wanted to creep tumor his way to his ramp, then build a crawler, to deal with this, this would delay his 2nd base far too much. So: with time on his mind, I, the zerg, build a roach warren. BING BING BIGN you have an advantage. See if I go roach warren, I have to make roaches to make it useful. Roaches cost gas. So if you keep zealot pressure up, he will need to make roaches to counter you. Now what you may ask? Well now he still hasn't gotten his lair, still is on one to two gas, and most importantly: you now have a stargate. Phoenix harassment killing the overlords causes a major stop in the economy as he can't power any units out if you kill his overlords. Believe me, this happens every game, I know that this remains true. So: what position are we in now? a 1-2 base protoss with tier 2 tech vs. a zerg who is on 2 bases that are only partially being mined and frantically building overlords to cope with your phoenixes, not to mention lairing for hydralisks so that he can get your damn phoenixes out of there. I think you can handle the game from there. Fact of the matter is you dictate his playing dramatically by doing these things. Patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp, man. Letting P pylon/cannon your ramp is a good way to lose ZvP every time. | ||
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ZaneZaneZane
United States68 Posts
On November 08 2010 02:33 Minigun wrote: We have no answer to mutas, I know I didn't play perfect that game, but I outmined him by 6k and was just crushed by 1-0 mutas compared to 3-1, everything. I was on the stream when you played that. It was painful to watch. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On November 08 2010 02:33 Minigun wrote: We have no answer to mutas, I know I didn't play perfect that game, but I outmined him by 6k and was just crushed by 1-0 mutas compared to 3-1, everything.  Do you feel like if you had gone phoenix a bit earlier, possibly even before blink stalkers first you could have controlled the air a bit better, or do you think ht/blink stalkers is superior early/mid game? | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On November 08 2010 08:08 Nasdrova wrote: Do you feel like if you had gone phoenix a bit earlier, possibly even before blink stalkers first you could have controlled the air a bit better, or do you think ht/blink stalkers is superior early/mid game? Phoenix's aren't a realistic counter to a decent zerg, I was just desperate, nothing else was working. There are many reasons but you can probably figure it out. I have found that you basically just have to do a well timed 9 minute 5 warpgate push on two bases. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
But now I feel like a shitty mid-diamond player who 4 gates all the time, even if it is only one match up. Phoenix openings are too unreliable at this point, too much micro, really weird expenditure of resources, and too easy to lose phoenixes. | ||
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
On November 08 2010 02:33 Minigun wrote: We have no answer to mutas, I know I didn't play perfect that game, but I outmined him by 6k and was just crushed by 1-0 mutas compared to 3-1, everything. Reinforcing your initial push with a proxy pylon, OR possibly taking out his main + spire instead of his natural both of these choices would have won you the game | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-163991.jpg) | ||
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terr13
United States298 Posts
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On November 08 2010 14:11 terr13 wrote: I'm just curious why Phoenix's are such a horrible choice. I'm about 1300 Zerg, and everytime I start to see Phoenix's, I almost immediately switch out of Mutalisks, since just a couple Phoenixes shred through my mutas, as well as forcing me to withdraw my OLs, and put up extra defenses for my Queens. Phoenixes work best vs mutas in low-mid range muta numbers (so 1 control group or so max). If you go muta and they start going so many phoenix to counter that, throw up some spores and go mass hydra. They cannot spend their remaining money on anything to counter hydras effectively. This means that the ideal phoenix number is definitely <15, and 15 can deal with around 30 mutas very good, but that's about the ceiling. It gets to a point where mutas deal damage so fast through splash and the fact that they stack and can just focus fire every phoenix. So phoenix work best in preventing mutas from ever becoming a problem, but if you see them going mutas and you start going phoenix afterwards, you are gonna have alot of trouble. | ||
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teh leet newb
United States1999 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On November 08 2010 14:11 terr13 wrote: I'm just curious why Phoenix's are such a horrible choice. I'm about 1300 Zerg, and everytime I start to see Phoenix's, I almost immediately switch out of Mutalisks, since just a couple Phoenixes shred through my mutas, as well as forcing me to withdraw my OLs, and put up extra defenses for my Queens. From my experiences, phoenixes can only be used as reactionary to mutas, not to prevent mutas. If I build 4 phoenixes blindly off one stargate, I will lose straight up to any roach play. I can only go phoenix if I know that mutas are coming. Now if I know mutas are coming, phoenixes are so slow to pump out that I won't be able to respond in time so I will take pretty heavy damage. | ||
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inFeZa
Australia556 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 08 2010 14:29 Chairman Ray wrote: From my experiences, phoenixes can only be used as reactionary to mutas, not to prevent mutas. If I build 4 phoenixes blindly off one stargate, I will lose straight up to any roach play. I can only go phoenix if I know that mutas are coming. Now if I know mutas are coming, phoenixes are so slow to pump out that I won't be able to respond in time so I will take pretty heavy damage. I disagree it's harder to use phoenix as a reactionary measure as by the time you can throw down a stargate and pump any significant amount of phoenixes mutas will have done their damage. You do have to somewhat build a stargate blindly, but there are signs such as a large amount lings and/or spine crawlers. Roaches for me aren't a problem when I open stargate as I can hold them off with cannons and stalkers. Hydras are the real issue. If you guess wrong and they tech straight to hydras I've found you pretty much need multiple cannons or you won't be able to hold off the push as you won't have colossi in time. You're forced to turtle until colossi come up so you end up fighting a somewhat uphill battle unless you are really active with picking stuff off with your phoenix. That said I haven't seen stargate openers work off 1 base vs a 2 base zerg, it's almost always followed by protoss' own FE. edit: You can also just build 1 void ray to shut down any early roach play. | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
It just seems protoss have to do so much more than zerg to get a victory now. Zerg dont really need to scout, or they have easy ways to scout. I just feel the complete removal of 15 nexus FE BO due to roach range buff plays a huge role. Toss has to pressure early, guess the tech, constantly scout to make sure zerg is droning and not pumping units out of 2 bases, so many things to do. Is a huge skill lvl to climb, I am not saying it is impossible, it is just harder. A less skilled zerg can well win a more skilled toss. BUT i believe the protoss beyond my skill level will find scouting a norm. My inability to macro/micro/multitask makes me feel zerg is freaking OP now, cause is so god damn hard to play against them. And i refuse to admit all zerg that beats me with attack move roaches or mutalisk harrass and having 2k minerals left over is better than me | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On November 08 2010 02:33 Minigun wrote: We have no answer to mutas, I know I didn't play perfect that game, but I outmined him by 6k and was just crushed by 1-0 mutas compared to 3-1, everything. Well he was very heavy on mutas with not so many lings, and when the game was starting to turn in Cellawerra's favor you ended a few battles with him having no lings, several mutas, and you had 10 zealots. After two or three battles of being wiped out then you were just playing catch-up which is hard to do if he keeps massing mutas (which any sensible player would do). I know I'm looking in perfect hindsight, and it's not anything that a gold leaguer couldn't point out, but I figured if you asked for advice I'd say gauge how muta heavy his mutaling army is going to be and increase the number of blink stalkers you make accordingly. Your HTs may have scared off his push a couple times, but I can't help thinking those resources invested in some more stalkers would have been more beneficial than storming your own zealots (because you have to, it wasn't bad playing by you). One last thing is that you had 86 probes at your peak with only 2 bases. I know muta harass means you can lose bases and workers easily if he splits up his lings and mutas (which he did to take out your 9'o'clock expo) but I feel like you could have also used those resources on more gates/stalkers/zealots/motherships. You played well, ignoring the outcome, especially killing his expos three times. | ||
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