EPT[D] PvZ Muta/Ling - Page 12
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Zeroes
United States1102 Posts
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pm_squad
Mexico180 Posts
 . I have bluffed a 2 Gate pressure to force a Roach Warren and at least delay the inevitable Mutas, but that was one game out of the 20 or so I've lost like this.I've just pretty much given up on going for late game against Zerg's and much rather do a 4gate all in before they can even tech to Muta's. | ||
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Deltawolf
United States105 Posts
With the various changes since then: Zealot build time slowed down, roach range increased, and many players throwing down shameless amounts of spine crawlers so they don't use gas, I feel it much more difficult to put that necessary pressure on early. I try to open very standard 2 gate/robo every game especially with the prevalence of heavy roach builds too. Keep the scout alive as long as possible until I get an Obs out then I react from there depending on what I see. So let's assume I see lair tech going up with no roach warren, double gas. Sometimes I can make a timing push and shut down the player right after they get lair. That seems to be your strongest chance to break them. However, if you can't do enough damage fast enough or get in there to cancel the spire, you still aren't in too bad of a position so I don't feel like you lose the game there. You pretty much guarantee at least near equal damage with a zealot/stalker/immo push, but it's luck of the draw if you actual come out ahead or not, a huge factor being if it is cross positions or not. I feel the first 6 muta are pretty easy to deal with if your attack fails. I can spread pylons maybe make an extra obs for vision since I'm no longer making Immo with the muta/ling out. Then I get a forge out for the weapons upgrades for my zealots to deal with the lings. If the muta numbers continue to climb into 12 or more. That's when I try to get a few cannons to help and get blink. But actually keeping the muta numbers down is the hard part. I can't get a 3rd unless the zerg makes a pretty big mistake (which I shouldn't rely on happening), and once his numbers are around 15, that's when he starts to break me. Because the stalkers have to be spread out to cope with the hit and run, and any given time he is fighting 1/4 of my army, before the rest of my units can get there, he can pick them off. I can't get vision (especially if he makes overseers) or map control to tell if he is going more muta or ling heavy. So if I overrespond with stalkers, I lose to the ling, more zealots, screwed by muta etc. Even if he never does any damage, as long as he doesn't lose his muta, I can't take a 3rd but he can expand as many times as he wants. If you try to get for a death ball, he can tech anything he needs too as long as he is smart enough to fight you at your own front door when you move out. That buys him too much time to make anything else. If you try to just bust out and attack his base it is complete luck. Most higher level zerg have creep spread and overlords placed well so it is no surprise what you are doing so they will attack your probes until right before you reach their base, try to stall for time, then they will run back and fight you. I haven't been running SC2 gears the last couple of weeks, I'll try to play some PvZ soon and get some replays up. Thanks for the read, please continue this discussion if at all possible. This strat is hurting my soul. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
Recently I had a practice session with iNcontroL where he (and some other guys too) completely roflstomped me for 2 hours straight. I've got the whole thing recorded, if you guys want to check it out to see what works against me. All the commentary is geared toward how to approach the matchup from the Zerg perspective, but maybe you guys can get something out of it. http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter/video?clipId=pla_cbc6e062-d0a2-40a4-a012-f53cf2fe1dcd&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb Fast forward to 25:08. Everything before that is just me setting up the stream, warming up, etc. | ||
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Incursus
United States415 Posts
I'm at a loss as to how to properly fight it, sure Blink Stalkers can hurt them, but there's the whole issue of instant map control and being able to macro and take over the map with ease. Is there a way, other than being super aggressive to stop this? Should I go any anti Muta build (which is required to survive any muta/ling strats) I will find myself being stomped by whatever they unleash. I'm heavily contemplating switching to Zerg at this point. | ||
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Brutalfish
Finland1 Post
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On November 02 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote: I'm a 2100 Zerg player and I go muta/ling every chance I get vs Toss. Recently I had a practice session with iNcontroL where he (and some other guys too) completely roflstomped me for 2 hours straight. I've got the whole thing recorded, if you guys want to check it out to see what works against me. All the commentary is geared toward how to approach the matchup from the Zerg perspective, but maybe you guys can get something out of it. http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter/video?clipId=pla_cbc6e062-d0a2-40a4-a012-f53cf2fe1dcd&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb Fast forward to 25:08. Everything before that is just me setting up the stream, warming up, etc. Haven't watched the whole thing, but I don't agree with InControl's commentary near the beginning. It's not necessary to hit a timing window with 5-6 gate pushes. There are at least 2 other styles that can deal with muta/ling well that I've seen. Scouting well and getting 2 stargates if you see that they are going muta works very well. Also, I've seen some (top foreign level) players beat muta/ling with storm and blink. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
The only way I can see is just to all-in at his natural and pray for the best. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On November 03 2010 00:45 0mar wrote: I've hit a wall just now (~1800 diamond) where muta/ling just roflstomps me even when I pump their "counters". I've been doing some sort of FE, 2 gate, forge, etc etc, then tossing a stargate and scouting with a phoenix. If I see a spire, I'll throw down another stargate and start pumping phoenix stalker zealot as much as I can afford. The problem isn't the army, since I can kill their ling/mutas with my army, it's that I have no map control. Whenever I move out, mutas attack my mineral line and don't even care about the cannons there. I put down 3-4 cannons, but even that many cannons can't stop 12+ mutas from wrecking your mineral line. The only way I can see is just to all-in at his natural and pray for the best. Sounds like you have an issue with splitting up your army effectively. Phoenixes should allow you to regain some map control as you can scout, harass, and respond to harassment quite effectively with them. Split your stalkers/sentries b/w your bases mineral lines and if he attacks toss up GS and fly your phoenixes back to defend and the zerg player will take more losses than you. | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On November 02 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote: I'm a 2100 Zerg player and I go muta/ling every chance I get vs Toss. Recently I had a practice session with iNcontroL where he (and some other guys too) completely roflstomped me for 2 hours straight. I've got the whole thing recorded, if you guys want to check it out to see what works against me. All the commentary is geared toward how to approach the matchup from the Zerg perspective, but maybe you guys can get something out of it. http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter/video?clipId=pla_cbc6e062-d0a2-40a4-a012-f53cf2fe1dcd&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb Fast forward to 25:08. Everything before that is just me setting up the stream, warming up, etc. That was @#$%ing kickass. Thanks for pointing us to that. -Cross | ||
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Wayem
France455 Posts
On November 02 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote: I'm a 2100 Zerg player and I go muta/ling every chance I get vs Toss. Recently I had a practice session with iNcontroL where he (and some other guys too) completely roflstomped me for 2 hours straight. I've got the whole thing recorded, if you guys want to check it out to see what works against me. All the commentary is geared toward how to approach the matchup from the Zerg perspective, but maybe you guys can get something out of it. http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter/video?clipId=pla_cbc6e062-d0a2-40a4-a012-f53cf2fe1dcd&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb Fast forward to 25:08. Everything before that is just me setting up the stream, warming up, etc. Thank you very much for sharing this with us. I love you. | ||
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
On October 04 2010 23:21 Zeroes wrote: i find that toss can control what tech paths zerg has to go down. A standard 2 gate usually forces a roach warren and early phoniex/void ray forces hydras and if you do both you can pretty fuch force roach/hydra tech instead of muta/ling. so what your saying is protoss players should go 2 gate into phoenix harass to force roach hydra. from a zerg standpoint, i wish they would! lol! btw the answer imho is to use storms and stalker sentry and later on stalkers with blink. what makes this so potent against muta ling is the sentries shield that negates the hell out of muta fire. combo this with stalkers to keep the muta ling army from engaging. and just to keep your bases safe. storms and stalkers cause the zerg player to just not engage and instead expand. at this point you should be working yourself up to blink tech with upgrades on your stalkers. when you get to like 1/1 and blink its time to rape some face. at this point if the zerg hasnt gotten to ultras hes done. if he does have ultras mutas and lings your in a for a bumpy ride. micro is all you can do against an ultra as toss since they pretty much wreck every unit head on. so at this point the big thing that will give you the win is simply having more stuff! | ||
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teedee
United Kingdom15 Posts
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tofubox
2 Posts
Quickly get a stargate up and cb that first phoenix, used to scout that zerg base, as probe die too fast to lings Whilst building that phoenix, i build second SG, and waypoint to the first phoenix, if the zerg hides his overlords i snipe and scout, if not just scout, when the 2nd & 3rd comes, i take out the queen and focus solely on the overlords, then i make sure i build zealots generally 2-3 at base to handle the ling rush he does when they attack base and use FF to protect the gateway. So i focus i reducing his supply so its hard for him to go mutas, and by the time he transitions to hydra, i will have a fair few phoenix up (5-6 atleast) and just take out purely overlords. Mind you im a pretty low player, reached gold when game first came out, then stopped playing, and only started 2 weeks ago again, this time im in low silvers. But i find simply trying to match numbers against mutas is too hard, if he tries to take out my probe i have a few cannons there taking out what i can and keep the overlord harass on him to make him stop droning/zergling and simply build overlords count up, i ignore the drones at this stage as if i can force his supply down, the drones will only supply block him. When i tried using the phoenix to come back to base to defend against the 3-6 mutas he has at this point will result in their death or his transition into hydras and raping me | ||
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Deltawolf
United States105 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
There are no phoenixes in the video I posted... | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
The basic gameplan is 3-gate expand/pressure -> defend with blink stalkers -> push with psi storm and take 3rd -> add immortals/void rays to deal with Z T3. Also, feel free to storm your own units if the mutas sit on top of you. The mutas will be more clustered than your units, are more expensive than your units, have lower health than your units, and you know where the next storm will be making storm dodging easy. Even if you just land 3 storms and each does the minimum damage before the mutas move out, your blink stalkers will easily clean up. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
Post patch i would pretty much say that the only sensible way to beat muta ling (due to massive indirect nerfs of other builds because of such superior roach play pretty much destroying any kind of mass T1.5 AND templar play) is just to some stupidly abusive timing attack when he gets them My intention is pretty much to fake an expand now and catch him with their pants down for being greedy asses and teching to mutas in the first place Either that or do a real expand and then just do some super all in 2 base early timing with +1 as mutas pop | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On November 02 2010 15:14 MrBitter wrote: I'm a 2100 Zerg player and I go muta/ling every chance I get vs Toss. Recently I had a practice session with iNcontroL where he (and some other guys too) completely roflstomped me for 2 hours straight. I've got the whole thing recorded, if you guys want to check it out to see what works against me. All the commentary is geared toward how to approach the matchup from the Zerg perspective, but maybe you guys can get something out of it. http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter/video?clipId=pla_cbc6e062-d0a2-40a4-a012-f53cf2fe1dcd&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb Fast forward to 25:08. Everything before that is just me setting up the stream, warming up, etc. I can't get this to play at all. It starts out with the audio fine, but then a video ad comes up ( with sound ) then when the ad is done the sound is gone. Anyone know how to fix this? | ||
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KuBa
Poland98 Posts
1. 2 Gate Robo with CB Immortals, which gives u a nice defense against roaches and some chances against spine crawlers. Additionally, there is a good potential of sniping vital tech structures. From that point u can expand. 2. 3 Gate Blink Stalker, which depends on my mood if I play it like an all-in or an expand while pressuring the zerg. And with mood I don't mean my mental state, but if my push "feels" very strong or just not as good. For example, as the zerg throws down a lot of spines, the push kinda always feel not as strong, from my point of view. 3. 3 Gate Stalker/Sentry into expand, which is really just about pressuring the zerg while throwing down a safe expansion without even trying to end the game quickly. In this strategy, the FF's are crucial, as u can just block stalkers and sentries from lings and to get a lot of uncontested shots while using guardian shield against roaches. So, those are my strategies in the beginning, aiming to pressure the zerg. And this is a very important way to get a feeling for the current matchup, because as u put pressure on the front of the zerg, u get a lot of information and can tell a lot of things right off the bat. For example, as the zerg is throwing down a lot of spines for defense, it's viable that he will transition after the push from ling/spines to mass muta, just because he needs to get the mobility and map control back he lost due to a lot of defensive structures. And if that happens, I like to throw down one stargate immediately, just to abuse the fact he has to sit on his ass and I can harass him a lot and get every information possible simultaneously. If I see a spire, I can just throw down another stargate and constantly produce phoenixes until he abandons his plan. If u didn't scout the spire in time, it can be really tough to deal with when u have no stalkers with blink at all, as it leaves u vulnerable for some time because u can't pressure and prevent him from droneing up at all. And transitioning to nixes AFTER he has got his mutas already is a bad idea because u simply won't keep up in production at all to have enough nixes. So, you just need to split up ur stalkers in different control groups and defend for some time, until blink is ready to rumble. And after u got ur blink stalkers, u have to try to snipe some mutas and watch out for the timing window where he has to pull back for a second, so u can try to push him while blinking up in the main and sniping tech and drones, especially on small maps or short ground spawns, and while that u probably have to transition to HT's, because they're pretty strong against muta and ling. So, all in all, the game plan is the following: 1. Pressure the zerg a lot, just to get a feeling what he's doing (a lot of spines are a good indicator for mass mutas later) 2. Get deeper scout information fast after ur push (Observer/Phoenix/Hallucination). 3. If u scout the spire getting thrown down, keep up producing nixes and forcing him to abandon his plan. 4. If u didn't scout the spire and he goes for mass muta/ling, defend with splitted up stalkers and try to get blink and HT's, try to find a timing to abuse blink stalker harassment. Result: Be aggressive and scout his frikkin front. SCOUT! Scout! Scout...  GN8, KuBa | ||
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