EPTand corruptors are pretty good against collossi too.. which is kinda a big part of zvp
anyways i heard some good arguments against
[D] PvZ Muta/Ling - Page 10
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
and corruptors are pretty good against collossi too.. which is kinda a big part of zvp anyways i heard some good arguments against | ||
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Tenshik
124 Posts
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
I have found that adding a stargate and going stalker/zealot pheonix broodwar style, peforms really well. Chronoboost the stargate to get as many pheonixes as possible. This compositions has the benift of deterring the zerg player from raping you economy as you move out for a big push. You just hover around the mutas attacking your cannons, probably with 4-5 vs his 14-20, but enough to make him pay for staying to take out the cannons. If the zerg takes ~9 in-game seconds to take out your 3 cannons, on paper, you can do ~800 damage to his mutas, a pretty good exchange, seeing that you will force an engagement as his natrual as soon as your push arrives. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On September 25 2010 10:55 charlie420247 wrote: against muta ling THE ANSWER IS. templar with storm. lol. storm completely rapes both units whats left to discuss. cannons are also great for holding off both units untill templar hit the scene. Whats left to discuss is it is impossible to get out sufficient amounts of storm before the initial muta harass hits, and it is impossible to hold off that harass without mass stalkers if you're rushing storm. You have to have some kind of stopgap measure to handle that period if you're going storm. | ||
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adrift
192 Posts
At this point I will have scouted the spire and gone up to 6 gates + council. I'll start getting +2 and blink but this is where it goes downhill. Once enough mutas are out I lose map control completely and I don't know how to get it back. I try very hard to use my mass gateways with blink and +2 to keep pressure and not let him take a third but it usually ends up badly for me. A lot of the time I win the first engagement or at least force him to fall back but end up still not being able to actually damage his third due to reinforcements and/or spinecrawlers. I don't lose every game or anything but I just seem to have so much more trouble with muta/ling than anything in any other matchup. So here are some questions: I'm teching storm so should I just turtle on two bases and then do a big timing push with blink stalker/zealot/storm? I really hate doing plays like this because if the zerg is good he will have expanded to 3 or 4 bases so sitting on two bases so long makes this pretty all in for me. I can never get the right army composition. I either have too few zealots and my stalkers get raped by lings or too many zealots and my stalkers get focused down by the mutas before I can kill them. I have at least one sentry for guardian shield and try to forcefield the lings ECT, What kind of zealot:stalker ratio do you go for assuming he is doing the normal of putting all his gas into mutas and using lings to dump minerals (usually with an extra hatch)? In the fights I try to focus fire the mutas with my stalkers but its hard with the mobility. It also seems hard to fight with good positioning ever again because of the mobility and the fact that I'm the one on the offensive. This is why I'm starting to think that pushing before storm might be a bad idea but I just hate to surender map control completely. Archons: They seem strong in small numbers but never worth making more than a few because of their terrible range and huge hitbox (and huge gas cost). I do start to add more in if the game continues to the zerg making ultras though. PS: I'm looking for help using a standard kind of early forge FE into gateways build. I do not like stargate even when I scout spire because hydra is such an easy transition for zerg whereas storm or collossus is a much slower transition for me. | ||
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McFoo
United Kingdom180 Posts
On September 26 2010 22:34 adrift wrote: PS: I'm looking for help using a standard kind of early forge FE into gateways build. I do not like stargate even when I scout spire because hydra is such an easy transition for zerg whereas storm or collossus is a much slower transition for me. Here's a great match between oGsInCa and Fruitseller (Cool), both are in the top 8 of the GSL. http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/1639 + Show Spoiler + InCa beats Cool seemingly effortlessly. Cool plays well though. It seems he has this nice BO were he can scout his opponents main with the first 2 zerglings and that's about when he gets his first 100 gas so if his opponent has expanded he goes lair and if not he goes zergling speed. It also allows him to get a much faster expo. I guess this build is motivated by the zealot rush nerf. Notice how he gets 6 gateways all at once so that they finish about when warp gate tech finishes. Also, make not of his upgrade and blink tech timings (he goes +2 attack). He gets a monstrous amount of probes so fast lol. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On September 28 2010 02:11 Jayrod wrote: How are people dealing with it when Zerg goes expansion before pool? Ive seen it a bunch lately, but I dont have any replays. I got absolutely stomped by it. He produced a ton of speedlings to apply pressure and still had his expo/second hatch before pool. Mutas followed up really early and I was stuck in base. How are you guys opening up when you've seen hatch before pool? I've only beaten this once and it was in an extremely epic and long match, but it was his match to lose. Mutas just give so much control. I even opened phoenix and the mutas kept me locked down. What exactly is the difference of going hatch first that I'm missing here, other than being more economy-focused for the zerg player? To me my basic response is the same, either a timing push on 1 base or to FE yourself. Obviously going hatch first makes them more vulnerable to 2-gate openings. I do not suggest going phoenixes off 1-base unless you plan to incorporate them into your timing push. Any 1-base/non-FE play forces you to try to do a timing push to end it otherwise zerg will just outmacro you. | ||
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driftme
United States360 Posts
On September 25 2010 10:55 charlie420247 wrote: against muta ling THE ANSWER IS. templar with storm. lol. storm completely rapes both units whats left to discuss. cannons are also great for holding off both units untill templar hit the scene. i've never had good luck defending these attacks with storms. if the zerg player is good, the storm does like 1 tick of damage.. both types of units are so blazing fast. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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DamageInq
United States283 Posts
You'll need to constantly scout with your small group of phoenix, killing off overlords and watching for drops and nydus networks. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/81764-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands This is an older replay of what I have refined much more. I cut a lot of probes for the opening, but I really do want to strike first. I think that against Zerg, you have to show your initial cards to force their hand, which is why I show fast stalkers to get them to do speed... Lair tech I want to delay enough so my Phoenixes have time to accumulate. 1st stage: Fast stalker harass - can force a gg if you do enough damage... I target overlords now exclusively. 2nd stage: Phoenix harass to hold them in their base/scout... There is a point here where you can win the game with 1 void ray if your harass is that effective. 3rd stage: Expand and HT tech... This is the final stage of the strategy that will allow you to go high templar, but also have the economy to be flexible and responsive to the Zerg player if they come with any weird stuff | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
I have had much success with Muta/ling. In fact, its one of the only strats I use verses protoss. I remember one game distinctly (I lost  ), the protoss massed stalkers then used high temps with storms. Seriously, temps OWN muta ling. Also, phoenix are a very good counter as they can outmicro mutas. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On September 28 2010 03:24 DamageInq wrote: Open phoenix>Pick off drones/queens/overlords>Force Zerg to get hydras>tech to 2 robo collosi. You'll need to constantly scout with your small group of phoenix, killing off overlords and watching for drops and nydus networks. the problem with opening pheonix off a fast expand is that you'll die to many aggressive builds from the zerg (2 base quick hydra for example) I like to go for a 6warpgate push, which isnt great vs muta/ling but the timing attack allows me to see the sunkens and still apply pressure-or defend until i can build 2 stargates and gain map control once i have a good pheonix count. | ||
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RoboSnail
United States59 Posts
4 gate is a thing of the past, learn a different build. I transition into Muta/Ling after holding off the 4 gate push and try to keep the toss contained to 1 base if he manages to take a 2nd i take a 3rd and mass muta then its GG. Both Phoenix and blink stalkers rape my Muta/Ling if you have = army value if you don't of course your gonna lose. The reason the toss never has = army value is cause of to much 1 base all in play. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On September 28 2010 04:05 RoboSnail wrote: I'm happy to announce that lately I have been winning more then 75% of my ZvP games. I have found the counter to protoss 4 gate (the only build toss use) and now manage to smash toss all day. When a toss goes 4 gate its pretty much an all in. Some try to stay and take there and they may or may not succeed, but after a failed 4 gate push they will never take a 3rd. Because they have no third they will never compete with zerg's gas, therefore they die. 4 gate is a thing of the past, learn a different build. I transition into Muta/Ling after holding off the 4 gate push and try to keep the toss contained to 1 base if he manages to take a 2nd i take a 3rd and mass muta then its GG. Both Phoenix and blink stalkers rape my Muta/Ling if you have = army value if you don't of course your gonna lose. The reason the toss never has = army value is cause of to much 1 base all in play. What's your defense against 4-gate, and do you know what kind of 4-gate it is? What units attack you? | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
After holding off the 4gate I grab all my gas and go ling/muta, teching to Ultras as fast as possible. If for some reason they have phoenixes, once you've already committed to this, add corrupters. Otherwise go 2 hatch hydra and win. If first harrass is successfully, take a third. Keep track of how many cannons they add to deal with your mutas, how many pylons you snipe, etc, and it becomes increasingly safe to take a 4th and 5th. Its the only time I, as Zerg, feel completely safe and that I'm going to secure a win well in advance. Keep spotter lings throughout the map so that when a surprisingly strong push comes (it always does) you can macro up ground army to deal with it. Very fun  | ||
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