On September 28 2010 03:14 Jayrod wrote: I wish I had saved the replay, but did not. The 1 less zealot you get out of a 2 gate or the delay is enough for them to easily hold, it seems. Its like they were going to produce a huge speedling ball anyways for an early breakthrough attempt so you arent really setting them back with pressure and once they get the speed upgrade its super easy to surround whatever you send. Ive done FE's with some success but its just so hard to take a 3rd with the mobility mutas give them... especially on certain maps like blistering sands.
Personally when I go FE I either go with some 6 or 7-gate all-in off 2 base and try to end it before they can mass muta (obviously very similar to 4-gate so it works better on maps where their natural is more exposed), or play the long game and open phoenix into double robo colossi. Phoenix allows you to regain map control and even counter harass.
On September 28 2010 03:24 DamageInq wrote: Open phoenix>Pick off drones/queens/overlords>Force Zerg to get hydras>tech to 2 robo collosi.
You'll need to constantly scout with your small group of phoenix, killing off overlords and watching for drops and nydus networks.
the problem with opening pheonix off a fast expand is that you'll die to many aggressive builds from the zerg (2 base quick hydra for example)
I like to go for a 6warpgate push, which isnt great vs muta/ling but the timing attack allows me to see the sunkens and still apply pressure-or defend until i can build 2 stargates and gain map control once i have a good pheonix count.
There's a timing push for hydras before you can get that critical number of colossi w/ range for sure, but by no means is it a hard counter. Sometimes I am forced to throw down a few cannons, but as long as you don't get caught w/ your pants down you should be perfectly fine.
i am in plat and playing against a lot of diamond players and that is probably the hardest build for me to deal with out of all races i really have no solution for that i think the only way to deal with it is to somehow not let the zerg get the insane amount of mutas maybe put very early pressure and snipe the spire or anything of this sort
i just cant seem to kill a zerg with mutas on LT/Meta, its seriously close to impossible for me, i think im 1-30 against it on the ladder on those maps. im 1600+ Diamond...... iv gone Stalker/HT, DT/Stalker/Archon.
i guess i could open blindly Phoenix or something, but ill fall soooooooooo far behind if he just doesnt go Muta, and even then he has the advantage of just takeing out 2 corruptors or with the larvaa mechanic just outproduce my mutas.
iv scimmed trough this thread like 10-20 times, and have yet to find something usefull that deals with muta.. its come to the point where i compare Reapers and Mutas... pre nerf.
I was just remembering some of Bisu's old style where he get dark templars to contest the zerg expansions. If you produce a few DT's you can contest his expansions (kill drones or buildings) and his map control aswell as stay in your base to defend from the mutas with stalkers (assuming you fast expand or get it fairly fast) until your ready to push. A zerg response would be to either get a lot of overseers and to spread out his lings around his bases limiting his map control, or to get a overseer at his army and 1 at each bases and a spine crawler at each bases, though this should delay or reduce his muta count.
If and this is getting very situational, he has all his defence up and your DT's cannot do any direct damage you can get archons and bolster your army. There is not really a amazing counter as in broodwar, so relying on other techniques is nessesary.
On September 28 2010 21:43 Morgynia wrote: i just cant seem to kill a zerg with mutas on LT/Meta, its seriously close to impossible for me, i think im 1-30 against it on the ladder on those maps. im 1600+ Diamond...... iv gone Stalker/HT, DT/Stalker/Archon.
i guess i could open blindly Phoenix or something, but ill fall soooooooooo far behind if he just doesnt go Muta, and even then he has the advantage of just takeing out 2 corruptors or with the larvaa mechanic just outproduce my mutas.
iv scimmed trough this thread like 10-20 times, and have yet to find something usefull that deals with muta.. its come to the point where i compare Reapers and Mutas... pre nerf.
I am also having alot of trouble vs muta/ling combos. Even after getting into the midgame economically ahead.
I have gotten really fast ups, like +2attack+2 armour and still have been cleaned out by unupgraded mutas.
I have also gotten a few gaurdian sheilds, but it doesnt help when im still getting out massed 2-1 mutas to stalkers.
I tried mixing in an archon or 2, but the gas commitment just isnt worth it. It really cuts into the stalker/sentry count. Mutas just don't stack like they used to, they spread way too much in a-moves to justify the archon splash. The 300 gas just isnt worth it when you could just have more stalkers.
Also trying to get to ht's is a bit iffy. I havn't tried it, but there is a really long time span to get the first templar archives, get 200 more gas for the research, then another 300 just for 2 temps. Thats 600 gas timewise u have to sit through with 0 attacking potential. In this time, i just feel like mutas can pick me apart if i don't keep up with my stalker production.
It would be nice if a REALLY good P enlightend us. Not just plat suggestions that simply don't work.
I'm just platinum league, but i had some success against muta/ling with blink stalkers + psi storm. Mutalisks can run out of the storm but this means that he gets a few more shots from the stalkers without being able to shoot back.
Also stalkers have a higher range than mutalisks, so by blinking damaged mutalisks back you can kill them without too many losses.
In this replay he built a little too few zerglings at the end, he might have had more success against my stalkers with 20-40 lings more. Oh, and i play random, i'm not that good as toss, so this strategy might not apply to diamond or pro level.
I think I got a decent suggestion. Watch the replays, and see when its possible to scout, and what can be done then. As in whats the fastest the mutas come out. A one base push ( youd decide that from what you scout) with plus 1 attack should be enough to handle with gateway units.
I think the problem with everyone looking for solutions is they all happen after the mutas are roaming around. If you get in there before either the spire or as the mutas are getting made, shouldnt be dealing with too many ling. Of course depending on how fast the persons going for them.
In a straight up fight this stuff isnt all a bad idea, but it seems like solutions to a problem that couldve been stopped earlier. Also the problem doesnt really exhist in some cases. Yeah enough archons might be good in a straihgt fight with the mutas, but they arent good running back and forth between main and natural chasing the things all over the place. The solution shouldnt be to prepare for it, it should be to react soon as you can see it. Most of the solutions im reading just take too much time to be reactions. If you like opening with the stargate, then thats cool, you probably dont have to worry much about this.
If youre opening includes a robo, get that early observer. Should be able to scout whats up in time to attack and end the game right there. Likely if you cant end the game there then he spent too much on other stuff, and wouldnt be able to mass them fast enough--you'd probably have time to get phoenixs out. If you feel like you have to wait till you have two bases till you attack/poke, and the first time you know he has mutas is when you see 12 of them you might be screwed.
If you let someone mass something (without knowing soon enough) and youre trying to play catchup youre probably screwed. Especially if its against a real mobile air unit. So yeah an early observer then maybe some aggresion is my suggestion.
As a zerg player, in my practice I have been unable to beat a protoss that goes Gate>Core>Stargate and pumps phoenix. When I 15 hatch, their stargate is done with my second queen, and it's quite difficult to be 3-5 phoenixes that early. Thats with a super fast lair, and them continuing to pump phoenix. Trust me, they're quite good.
mass stalkers with sentries demolishes zergling-muta. Stalkers beat mutas cost effectively, and when you add sentries in forcefield and guardian shield makes them demolish both lings and mutas even better.
The reason fantaprime switches to roaches in that game is because it is nearly impossible to mass enough lings to deal with so many stalkers, and even when you do, blink becomes a big issue, or forcefield.
Not only does forcefield make stalkers strong vs zlings, not only does blink make stalkers strong vs zlings, but when you have a large enough army... mass stalkers vs mass lings, stalkers will win with NO MICRO AT ALL. (although obviously things would likely be different if it's a mixed force of mutas and zlings
On October 04 2010 06:08 Xapti wrote: mass stalkers with sentries demolishes zergling-muta. Stalkers beat mutas cost effectively, and when you add sentries in forcefield and guardian shield makes them demolish both lings and mutas even better.
The reason fantaprime switches to roaches in that game is because it is nearly impossible to mass enough lings to deal with so many stalkers, and even when you do, blink becomes a big issue, or forcefield.
Not only does forcefield make stalkers strong vs zlings, not only does blink make stalkers strong vs zlings, but when you have a large enough army... mass stalkers vs mass lings, stalkers will win with NO MICRO AT ALL. (although obviously things would likely be different if it's a mixed force of mutas and zlings
Stalker sentry may beat muta/ling head on, but the problem protoss is, there is nothing you can do to protect your mineral line when you move out after the mutas reach a critical mass. So when you do move out, most of the time it ends up being an all-in attack, and if the zerg knows this, he can usually defend quite fine.
Sentries are essential, but they are slow, and can be sniped by mutas.
On October 04 2010 06:08 Xapti wrote: mass stalkers with sentries demolishes zergling-muta. Stalkers beat mutas cost effectively, and when you add sentries in forcefield and guardian shield makes them demolish both lings and mutas even better.
The reason fantaprime switches to roaches in that game is because it is nearly impossible to mass enough lings to deal with so many stalkers, and even when you do, blink becomes a big issue, or forcefield.
Not only does forcefield make stalkers strong vs zlings, not only does blink make stalkers strong vs zlings, but when you have a large enough army... mass stalkers vs mass lings, stalkers will win with NO MICRO AT ALL. (although obviously things would likely be different if it's a mixed force of mutas and zlings
Stalker sentry may beat muta/ling head on, but the problem protoss is, there is nothing you can do to protect your mineral line when you move out after the mutas reach a critical mass. So when you do move out, most of the time it ends up being an all-in attack, and if the zerg knows this, he can usually defend quite fine.
Sentries are essential, but they are slow, and can be sniped by mutas.
Well, I don't see how any other strategy would counter this either, except possibly HTs + some cannons in your base.
I'm thinking that there are only two answers to mutas:
(1) Open 1-base phoenix and harass and expand your way into midgame.
(2) Open with expansion and/or gateway pressure and rely on blink stalkers in midgame.
Since phoenixes are bugged out right now, I'm using option #2. (1 gate + forge expand into 6-gate adding twilight for blink during push) I think that adding a single stargate to build a few phoenixes to support your stalkers would be a good choice, but the micro is REALLY hard. The phoenixes can die almost instantly if you engage away from your stalkers.
Why not just open pheonix? I'm only diamond and not a pro but I've been opening phoenix since early beta and fast hydra doesn't usually break me. I generally get +1 zealots with a few sentrys for guardian, though still with a focus on zealots. If hes slow enough I can even get charge. If I don't get a queen or few drones and overlords then I can reinforce my choke with a few cannons for the inevitable push, or if there is a nice cliff or river a voidray with proper micro can dominate. (phoenixs should obviously be lifting hydras)
With that strategy the thing that generally gives me trouble is when the zerg doesn't attack, because then my expo is behind. I'd post a replay, but I mostly play zerg now and the best ones are beta so they don't work
I used to lose to this combo a lot but it's not really very hard to defend for me once i just started sending my zeals to my nat with cannons, and keeping my stalkers in my base. Then i can successfully mass a game ending army while he does very little damage with his extremely expensive mutas.
I believe this is the type of Game we are all having trouble with. Muta's Just Reach a critical mass, and since we 'wall off' we leave the Zerg's economy unchecked and it implodes Into a group of 30+ Mutalisks and 60+ Zerglings which no amount of Stalkers can deal with effectively.
A strategy I have been testing against zerg is a cannon walled off quick expand into two gate two stargate pheonix+blink stalker play. I havn't been saving replays but it reeally is something to look into if your ahving problems with this.
On October 04 2010 22:32 pm_squad wrote: I believe this is the type of Game we are all having trouble with. Muta's Just Reach a critical mass, and since we 'wall off' we leave the Zerg's economy unchecked and it implodes Into a group of 30+ Mutalisks and 60+ Zerglings which no amount of Stalkers can deal with effectively.
wow, if it were'nt on a totally different level of skill this could've been one of my replays - it's EXACTLY how I lose nowadays vs zerg
I'm really choking right now when playing against mutas, as day9 would put it, I "don't have a plan" as to how I should play; this game from huk vs artosis is perfect, it shows precisely all of the problems I have too against this:
a) high ling-count: as opposed to slow "plz kite me" roaches, lings "do" scare off blinked stalkers when in high numbers; the cooldown of blink is too high to constantly keep blinking away from speedlings; without force-fields you effectively can't apply any kind of pressure in mid-game; but then again sentries can't blink which kinda negates your blink/stalker-advantage
b) pinned down on two bases: I generally have no problems defending two bases against muta-harass; I just group my stalkers up in 2 groups and blink accordingly when there's incoming harass; nevertheless I'm NEVER capable of establishing my third "somewhat safely"; while the zerg happily mass-expands throughout the map (artosis didn't even do this "that" good, he could've taken the right side much earlier to be able to just sack the left one without engaging and massing more mutas)
c) applying pressure without sacrificing probes: as we've seen, huk tried to push out multiple times, but was always forced to pull back with more stalkers because the mutas reached a critical mass where they could snipe cannons; this is exactly what happens to me too, all the time; always when I'm feeling "ok, now he definitely won't have ultras, I can rush out with my stalker/sentry-heavy force" I move out and once I'm a few steps away from my base the mutas fly in, snipe 1-2 cannons and force me to retreat if I don't want to all-in;
d) this is something we didn't see in the game: hive/ultralisks; when I'm able to hang on a bit longer and maybe win 1-2 battles, there comes this crucial turning point where the ultra-tech is done; here a HUGE tech-switch is required, if I haven't been preparing already, I have a really hard time getting immortals out in the numbers that are needed
ok, before anybody gets the wrong impression: I'm definitely NOT saying "QQ zerg > protoss"; I know that it's my flawed play that prevents me from getting the upper hand; I'm just wondering how you do it? interestingly, I haven't seen "that" many pro ZvP games where the Z goes for ling/muta.....why? there has to be a reason for that which I'm missing; does protoss have some sort of "unstoppable" timing push that just kills zerg with high win-%? so that pros don't even bother going mass ling/muta vs P? I think the most important point in the game is when I've established my 2nd (and secured it against ling-runbys too....xel naga and metalopolis come to my mind on this one) while the zerg is just on the way of running of 3 bases; if I don't do critical damage here, the 6 gas vs 4 gas won't end well for me;
I'd be thankful for any kind of advice that doesn't involve early (!) phoenixes (I love them, but their bug is just so annoying right now....) but what I'd call "standard-play"; would you go very early DT? fast tech to HT? I think the fast HT is at least "possible", because muta/ling can't attack straight out; lately I even started to think about heavy turtling while taking bases rather quickly; meaning, you defend you 2 bases with just the necessary amount of stalkers while throwing up LOTS of cannons; then you straight away take your third (gold) again, throwing up TONS of cannons; then - theoretically - with 6 gas you should be able to afford the necessary amount of templars to deal enough damage to be able to deal with ultras later on, even if your initial stalker-count isn't "that" high;
also I'd really appreciate any reps that show how to play vs this (possibly no all-in BS); and yes, I know the game of tester vs fruitseller, but the master of the fruit decided to switch into roaches due to a reason unknown to me
EPT
