EPT[D] PvZ Muta/Ling - Page 8
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On August 06 2010 21:29 Plexa wrote: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136186.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136187.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136188.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136189.jpg) Just played a bunch of games against Muta/Ling. I think the key in fighting them is warp prisms (see game 1 for why that is) and Dark Templar - to merge into Archons (50 gas less than HT) (see game 4 for this). watched #4: he is just a really bad zerg. the fact that your main is untouched without a single cannon or attack unit is unbelievable when somebody using mutas the 3rd cannon as your nat was overeacted bc u could easily hold position 2 remain stalker at the front and the 2 cannons will do the dps => u got ur nexus way earlier (yeah, your nexus is too delayed). mostly when one go cyber, they have a delayed forge or forge and delay cyber. getting both like you really hurt urself economically. a good Zerg would have a overseer(for speed) after 2 queen is out just to scout your base and if he see more than 1 cannon, he should get his 3rd base already. about the archon: first battle at your 3rd, they easily got stuck and simply become useless. mutas out range them and since they are air, micro can be done quite easy. there was a few time they shine with +2 attack +1 shield but mostly because Zerg upgrades has been delayed. the fact that he tried to switched to ultra out of 3 bases (main is almost out) is retarded. getting +1 melee attack b4 the amour is something i see bad Z hv done a lots. amour not only gv to Zerglings but also to spine and queen and hatch and drones which can gv him MUCH MORE defend adv. in the end, i just want to say that the true key to counter lings muta is upgrades. as you have +2, stalkers melts mutas faster than ever. also the fact that u can get +2 means you hv the council which bring the chance of getting blink to counter the mobility of mutas. what about lings? colossi, get 3 of them and start push out while getting storm up. for more information, watch HuK recents PvZ replays on metro. | ||
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Creation85
51 Posts
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
 i might just be playing crap zergs though | ||
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
On August 19 2010 16:25 Mykill wrote: I've noticed that mainly stalker/zealot army with colossi is good. add a few sentries for force fields i might just be playing crap zergs though Nice anti air you got there, probably works wonders versus mutas | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
Phoenix sounds good ... but once you have critical mass of mutas, they function mostly as a speed bump. Having 3, or 4 bases, using all gas for mutas or spire upgrades, you can mass them pretty fast, but you get to have a ton of minerals left over. When I am successfull with this, as a zerg, I don't build much speedlings. Against Terran, sure, but not against protoss. Yes, I have lings at each expansion and overlords at islands, but, I use extra minerals mostly for spinecrawler defense and extra overlords I move in front of my mutas when I attack (soak up damage, I leave them behind to die when I run). I find that moving from base to base, constantly, once you have a good force, while just building more mutas and upgrading from 2 spires (am I the only zerg who builds 2 spires for upgrades?), will slowly but surely tear down a protoss that waits too long with pushing out. Wasting your mutas, ie, letting them die before you have massed enough, will lose me the game, as will not building crawlers at expansions. | ||
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sparC
Germany162 Posts
i immediatly throw down a stargate and spammed stalker sentries only, i also had 2 cannons at my mineral lines, but when i realised, that he's going mass muta, i added a 2nd stargate and more cannons.. but cannons are worth nothing, they don't do enough dmg and die too fast, i wasn't even able to be a threat to these mutas eventhough i had constant phenix production from 2 stargates and 5 warpgates pumping stalker sentry, in the meantime he had his 3rd up and ~20spinecrawlers. i wasn't able to get a force up that can deal with this amount of mutas since he kept the pressure up and killed all units as soon as they entered the battlefield. i cannot see another solution then to end the game before he gets +12 mutas. | ||
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Torture
Canada221 Posts
I was originally planning on Zealot/Collossi, but that is straight up owned by Muta/Ling even if you have lots of Stalker/Sentries. Anyways, I managed to survive for awhile with Stalker/Setnry/Collosus (not the best mix obviously but I had the Robo Bay already..) but eventually got beaten when he added in Ultras (which I didn't scout so I didn't have immortals out in time. I hate Muta/Ling. I'm going to try opening 2 Gate/Stargate against Zerg, but that's pretty much going to be countered by the other popular strategy - Roach/Hydra. (Which Collosus do so well against!) And there isn't any tell tale sign when you're looking at the Zerg's base early game with your scouting probe to find out if it's Muta/Ling vs Roach/Hydra. Just played a bunch of games against Muta/Ling. I think the key in fighting them is warp prisms (see game 1 for why that is) and Dark Templar - to merge into Archons (50 gas less than HT) (see game 4 for this). Interesting. Curious what you use the warp prism for, I'll be sure to check out the replay tomorrow. | ||
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Acidlineup
123 Posts
The point im tryin to make here is if he is having a critical mass of mutas (by critical i mean hes able to 1-2 shot ur archon) u have to have also a critical mass of archons and the upgrades scale much better for archons (for 1+w u get like +15 to dmg to bio). Now i know what u will say. The problem with this clever aproach is that he will have superior mobility and avoiding facing ur army directly while harrasing ur expo or ur third or if ur main army is out of possition ur main. Dont attack him head on and turtle while waiting storm to finish. Now move out and by the time ur movin out u should have a couple of cannons (2-3 for each of ur base) and is he wont engage ur army directly while ur moving out to his base just warp in a couple of templars at whatever hes attacking u. Combined with cannons and a few stalkers u can afford, HT will repel this harassment. And also he cant harass u and letting his main base be killed. In this way he will be forced to pull back his mutas and then u have a perfect counter advantage but numerical and attacking disatvantage (he is defending so count spine crawlers and also he has slighly larger numbers) and then it all comes down to micro. I tried today going 3 gate robo against mass muta-ling and failed horribly  That build is no longer valid against smart zergs.__________ LOL this is my 100 post on TL | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
On August 06 2010 21:29 Plexa wrote: Just played a bunch of games against Muta/Ling. I think the key in fighting them is warp prisms (see game 1 for why that is) and Dark Templar - to merge into Archons (50 gas less than HT) (see game 4 for this). I watched these and wasn't particularly impressed by Z's play. In 1 of the games he gets completely WORKED by early zealots making it a foregone conclusion, and gets severely hampered by a 2-gate in another. In the 4th game he completely forgets about defensive upgrades for his lings, and then bizarrely goes for ultras when your composition is zealot/archon/templar. Umm... what? BL's would have made infinitely more sense there. On several of the replays, he has overlords covering the map but somehow can't see drops coming. =( | ||
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-140671.jpg) http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=140671#disc Ugh, This was a pain in the butt. Almost no lings were made, and even still is was just to much. | ||
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TriniMasta
United States1323 Posts
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MadMike
United States7 Posts
In this first game, there wasn't much early aggression with speed lots. Because the zerg player didn't early expand, I assumed tech (either hydra to infestor, then ultra or muta/ling). For scouting and anti-roach early aggression purposes, I went phoenix. The zerg player sent 5 mutas to my base, and encountered my 3 phoenixes with a few stalkers/sentries. I lost 1 phoenix, he lost 5 mutas (neither of our micro was good). It went downhill for the zerg player after that initial lost of investment. Even worse, he then switched to hydra AND expanded. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-140702.jpg) | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
The solution is either early aggression i.e. 2-gate to stop the FE or 4-gate timing push to wipe out the expo, or FE yourself and toss down a stargate and scout w/ your first phoenix and if see a spire quickly toss down another stargate or 2 and start massing phoenix and upgrade air weapons. If you survive until you get enough phoenix you can regain map control and contain the zerg until he transitions out of mutas into most likely hydras. You can then counter this with chargelots plus either HTs and/or DTs as you can use your phoenix to snipe the overseers. | ||
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attacknme
79 Posts
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daywiss
United States83 Posts
as a zerg player i love 2 base mutaling against toss. i would say though that the 4/5 warpgate timing push is equal in difficulty to hold off for the zerg as mutaling is for the toss. i think the solution for the toss player once it gets to mutaling is actually dt's. thats what i fear as a zerg player. dts double as both archon defense and force the zerg to spend money; at best in overseers at worst in static d, or even delaying muta attack. if done at the critical time this can mean a couple less muta, enough to put a 4 or 5 gate toss over the edge in terms of stalker firepower. | ||
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Stutte
Sweden13 Posts
I too am having a great deal of trouble with this build, even though I pretty much anticipate muta-ling and go fast stargate to start building phoenix, it still does not work - because the zerg just builds like 5-6 corruptors mid-game and all my phoenixes are void. I find no way as protoss to have air superiority in this matchup. Apparently Void Rays counter corruptors, but since phoenix relies on heavy micro to damage the mutas without taking damage themselves you just can't build void rays, and if you do they get focused and killed by the mutas in one blow long before they can charge up on the corruptors. Even if I pump phoenix off two-base with three stargates I am still outnumbered in the muta department because phoenix are so expensive. (1.5x the minerals) - and if I don't build zealots I don't need to tell you what happens. As soon as you're in this situation it's pretty much gg, the Z will keep expanding until he outmacroes you, I've glanced some at this thread, but has anyone given any actual solid builds that actually work? Cheers! | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On August 21 2010 04:57 Stutte wrote: Hello! I too am having a great deal of trouble with this build, even though I pretty much anticipate muta-ling and go fast stargate to start building phoenix, it still does not work - because the zerg just builds like 5-6 corruptors mid-game and all my phoenixes are void. I find no way as protoss to have air superiority in this matchup. Apparently Void Rays counter corruptors, but since phoenix relies on heavy micro to damage the mutas without taking damage themselves you just can't build void rays, and if you do they get focused and killed by the mutas in one blow long before they can charge up on the corruptors. Even if I pump phoenix off two-base with three stargates I am still outnumbered in the muta department because phoenix are so expensive. (1.5x the minerals) - and if I don't build zealots I don't need to tell you what happens. As soon as you're in this situation it's pretty much gg, the Z will keep expanding until he outmacroes you, I've glanced some at this thread, but has anyone given any actual solid builds that actually work? Cheers! Phoenix and corruptors are pretty close in a straight up battle, but the key to turning the tide in your favor is +1 air weapons. Also if you're going up against mutas and corruptors I would definitely just focus fire his mutas down first. Even if you end up losing the engagement chances are you'll really damage his army due to mutas being so expensive and corruptors won't be able to counter push you since they have no ground attack. Lastly, blink stalkers are a great compliment to an air force, especially if you eventually transition into carriers. Carriers still can do very well vs mutas, hydras, and even corruptors if you can manage to outpace their armor upgrades with your weapon upgrades. | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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