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On August 02 2010 16:02 iMaNeRD wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Im a zerg player and I think what the protoss player was getting at here is that mutas force you to multi-task and defend many points at once. Vs Terran I always go banelings and protoss I always go Mutalisks. Yes there are many variable factors but in general mutas work well.
Ill give an example of why they work well. Lets say the map is lost temple and the protoss is on the left hand side 9 oclock and im at the 12. This is a game I recently played. I will fly to the expo from the top and try to attack his probes, if he has defence I will fly away and then fly from the bottom to get his main probes. if that is defended as well, I will fly in from the right and attack his gateways, stargates etc.
The guy was talking about the harrassments and not being able to move out. Yes in a perfect game u would have mass pheonix or whatever u need. Also I find pheonix really hard to fight with mutas. For Zerg players I have found baiting them works quite well. What I mean is if pheonix fly back so I can't hit them, i will star attacking a building etc so they come back and attack me, at that point I will target the pheonix with all my mutas and I get a chance to attack. Also if the pheonix hurt ur mutas, when ur regrouping with ur new mutas heal them with your queens.
The main point is really Mutas give Zerg players scouting as they can fly all around the map checking for expos and when u hit the base u can also see what the protoss is going. I have lost going mutas but find as a zerg player Mutas vs protoss and Banelings vs Terran as the main units I use.
Also I have not come across a protoss player who has used archons / storm on my mutas yet. This kind of thing is what really gave me trouble, and is now why i normally open pheonix against zerg. While it's true that you can protect your probes with some cannons, it's nearly impossible to stop mutas from getting in your base at all. Zerg takes advantage of this map control to expand and whore drones when they run out of gas, but by then it just feels like I've been out macro'd so badly that my main army is nothing compared to his.
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Yeah unless someone proves to me otherwise playing cannons and stalkers is a sure way to lose vs muta ling
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I also got some huge problems ZvP when the zerg goes muta/ling....
Too many stalkers and you die to lings, too few stalkers and more zelots/sentry and the mutalisks rape you in 5 seconds....
But, what im going to try is to defend the early muta harass with stalkers + cannons and tech to colossi and when I got 2-3 colossi, attack. Im going to have atleast 4 sentrys to block of most of the lings and let the colossus kill the lings while my stalkers shoot the mutas, might work... but probably not, the mutalisks will probably just rape my stalkers in seconds with their bouncing bazooka shots 
Dunno what to do, really....
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Am I the only one that goes roach/corruptor/ling? It is very versatile.
No detection? Burrow the roaches. Enemy walls in? Morph banelings. Need a finishing move? Morph brood lords. P has a hard time with corruptor/brood lord as it is.
Collossi/Carriers get owned by corruptors Immortals get owned by lings Corruptors can go tail to tail with Phoenix and can increase their damage against Phoenix.
The only counter I see to this are high templar as they can feedback overseers necessary for detection and feedback corruptors needed for anti-air.
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So if you're 1 base muta/ling what timings do you use for gases and lair?
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Against mutaling, is it viable to take a hasty third and over-cannon (which means as many cannons as you need)? Zealot cannon (pheonix or archon), is a pretty sick defense. You take away the zerg's threat of totally outdroning you in exchance for a (temporary) contain. If the zerg mass expands, you theoritically should be able to amass a 3 base economy force of some sort take it out. If you're know you are going to lose most map control with mutas, why not go into lockdown mode?
Note: I haven't played sc2 since phase 2 and against mutaling for even longer, just putting ideas out, muta/ling is a bitch.
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Just played against this on LT.
I forge FE'd and managed to repel the mutas with a mix of cannons/stalkers/archons but I lost it when i had my forces at the front to fight off his push and he came in with broodlords in the back of my main.
Looking back, i probably could've held the front with just zealots/templar and kept my archons/stalkers in the back. But still at that point I was on 2-base and he already had the gold for quite some time.
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Okay so I tried a muta/ling build in the BO tester a few times and this is what I used:
9 overlord 12 extractor 13 pool 15 overlord 15 Queen + ling speed 17 zergling keep droning Lair when queen pops out (around 20) 20 Extractor Drone until 24 Lings until 30+ 30 Spire then build 2 overlords and like 6-8 lings and then when your spire pops you should have ~ 800/500 and you can queue 5 muta and expand.
I got pressured with some early zealots on Steppes of war but i basically walked over this protoss with that strat because he got gas so late.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135215.jpg)
My macro at the end was pretty terrible because i wasn't used to this strategy but i made short work of his probes and got enough lings to bust his front and finish it.
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Hey guys! I figured it out!
If you 4-gate them, you win! :D
-_- it actually worked, but they went fast mutas and just skipped spine crawlers all together
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On August 03 2010 12:50 Backpack wrote: Hey guys! I figured it out!
If you 4-gate them, you win! :D
-_- it actually worked, but they went fast mutas and just skipped spine crawlers all together
Yeah. Always a good build to rely on, but I've done this before and I lose to spine crawlers. If he has enough spines with a good amount of speedlings and a queen or two to transfuse, it's either lose all your units or fall back. This easy composition only requires minerals, and the gas he can save up for mutas.
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that was supposed to be sarcastic 
4-gating is always hit or miss
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I just wanted to share this game I just played
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135483.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +Opponent went fast 4 gate stalkers with fast blink and walled off, his stalkers couldnt catch my mutas and put pressure at the same time. I eventually won with a muta/ling bust on the gateway that was forming the bulk of the wall and overran him.
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On August 04 2010 10:26 Phrost wrote:I just wanted to share this game I just played + Show Spoiler +Opponent went fast 4 gate stalkers with fast blink and walled off, his stalkers couldnt catch my mutas and put pressure at the same time. I eventually won with a muta/ling bust on the gateway that was forming the bulk of the wall and overran him.
Toss didn't even cannon up after losing 1/2 his drones and then decided to leave home looking for harass. Barely even decided to get a forge after losing the majority of his drones a second time.
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On August 03 2010 09:56 Fiel wrote: Am I the only one that goes roach/corruptor/ling? It is very versatile.
No detection? Burrow the roaches. Enemy walls in? Morph banelings. Need a finishing move? Morph brood lords. P has a hard time with corruptor/brood lord as it is.
Collossi/Carriers get owned by corruptors Immortals get owned by lings Corruptors can go tail to tail with Phoenix and can increase their damage against Phoenix.
The only counter I see to this are high templar as they can feedback overseers necessary for detection and feedback corruptors needed for anti-air.
Someone tried that against me yesterday and I absolutely wrecked him with stalker-heavy force with some sentry and templar support. I'd have to look at the replay to see what happened with the food count, but the army value graph showed me losing ~15-20% of my army in the big battle compared to him losing 90%.
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I'll share some additional thoughts on what I've been doing in PvZ (~550 diamond) with a good degree of success.
As I see it, the optimal strategy for toss early on is to pressure the zerg and prevent muta/ling or hydra/roach from becoming an issue at all. Towards this end, 2-gate pressure where you get stalkers reasonably quickly (start core after 5th zealot to deal with roaches) can really mess with a zerg if you're in close positions and often end the game outright.
Eventually, however, you will have to tech. My preferred techpath in PvZ has been to build a stargate followed immediately by a twilight council. The stargate produces a phoenix as soon as its complete, then I go check on the zerg's tech. If I see mutas, then I'm good to go because Phoenixes are far and away the best solution to mutas (note that you may want to throw down a second stargate). If I see hydra/roach, then I already have my twilight council up and can spend the gas on charge and templar tech. I like to get charge first just so that I can put some early pressure on a zerg if he decides to be greedy and snatch a third. Chargelots are brutal against smaller numbers of hydras.
I don't really have this locked down into a concrete build order yet and I'm still feeling it out. However, it seems promising so far.
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XDaunt, I'd be interested in seeing some replays of this approach. I've been doing 12gate 14gate pressure into core as an opening. Usually I follow up with a robo & observer ... see the spire and warp in stalkers + cannon my mineral line + get council for blink. Against good muta harass, they find something to kill before blink is done researching.
I'll give skip-robo approach and scout with phoenix a few tries.
http://rapidshare.com/files/413603533/Xel_Naga_Caverns_-_PvZ_vs_mutaling_2gate_stalk_phoenix.SC2Replay
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I just made a thread about this and what I have been reading to be the best solution is early pressure but on larger maps like 3 v 9 metal or desert oasis it is very difficult to be aggressive early
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xDaunt's pressure into blind Phoenix (for scout during the lings-rule-the-map time) instead of blind robo ->obs seems to be superior. I'm set with chrono'd phoenixes if I scout the spire, and I catch the hydras in time to go chargelots into HT's.
My micro with lots/charge seems to not work against the better macroing Zergs who just throw enough hydras & roaches at the problem to win, but I'm fairly sure that's my skill as a player rather than an inferior plan for the hydralisk den.
589 points diamond as of now
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