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Do any of these replays include the protoss going for medium numbers of phoenix after seeing heavy muta? Guess I could just download them all and watch, stop being lazy. 
Ok, I guess the third replay is supposed to be showing how to beat a protoss who does go phoenix (like duh, my version, trying to just overwhelm them, obviously doesn't work)
What it really showed though was how to beat a protoss who enters a major battle with 1/3 to 1/2 of his army milling around in the back not shooting due to poor positioning. With a better arc, or better micromanagement so that there aren't so many units not doing anything for so long, I'm pretty sure protoss wins that first big battle hands down, leading to expansion death and likely loss of the game for zerg.
Edit again:
Since I'm watching them anyway, here are my comments on the other games.
Game 1: Protoss was 1 base behind at every point, and engaged an army that was 50% larger in both supply and resources. And yeah, lings are pretty damn good against stalkers.
Game 2: Again, 2 bases to 1, 3 bases to 2, 4 bases to 3. Saracen wasn't saturating all his bases, but was gassing at them, which is HUGE. After the first good-sized fight at Saracen's second, where the expansion lived by a mere 17 hp, the zerg was extremely far ahead in army resources and food at every point.
Game 3: Already commented on that one a little. I exaggerated a little, but there were 7-9 stalkers and or sentries not actually attacking through most of that battle. Towards the end, almost a third of the entire force was simply not attacking. 33% damage boost change anything maybe?
I couldn't get Game 4 to play. Old replay version maybe?
Anyway, what I'm really seeing here is that if you let a really good zerg player get a large macro advantage on you, or let a big part of your army hang out not attacking in battle, the zerg is probably going to win. I'm not convinced the protoss would have won any of these games no matter what the zerg's composition was. Well, the zealot/archon mix just might have omgwtfpwned a pure zergling army, but any reasonable mix is going to be pretty strong when spending 2-3x the resources on it.
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On July 20 2010 09:02 Saracen wrote:Also, please watch the replays. In game 2, .
I can't  So I just have to end my discussion there. But just wanna add cant you just shift queue stalkers on the mutas and ignore the lings? Let the sentries FF and zealots deal with the lings.
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In my own experience, like others have said before me, archons are very good versus both lings and mutalisk. They do not rape every mutalisk or ling in sight like in brood war, but they are still quite good. You have to make sure your anti-air is actually targeting the mutalisk, this business of lings taking hits for the mutalisk is ridiculous because you should be targeting with your archons & stalkers.
I don't have any recent replays, I just know I never had any problem against that type of play. Also for those saying how you cannot leave your base, the entire point is that you want to fight his army, so you have to be aggressive. If you move out and he backstabs with mutalisk just keep going. Your cannons and warp in archon/stalkers should be enough to hold him off and then he will be forced to return to fight you on your terms.
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This is a great post. Mutalisks are so versitle when you're not against some ridic anti air army. Opens up so many doors getting a fast hive and spire instead of roach warren/hydra den.
I'm only silver though. I'm still pretty firm in my belief that silver players simply don't know how to handle air well enough so they just get stomped. I certainly am one of those players as well.
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I hate how muta/ling are so versatile vs protoss, mutas keep u contained constantly, even though i find blink stlakers good in defending, thats gas you wont be using on the defence on the speedlings which shut down any expo you then try taking other then ur natural... Its true though that you need to be mroe agrresive,e its just ahrd when you knwo the mutas will be back harassing any outlaying units or tkaing down the 3 cannons at the main or expo if you try to push out... Id prefer to play a zerg with hydra or anything else as I normally lose from my own errors then.
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I know its a rebump but i seriously just have to reiterate
i am sick and tired of this build
REALLY sick and tired
Every single game its 1 mutalisks into some crazy contain
Ive pretty much summed up that you CANNOT 2gate FE vs any sort of 1 base muta play, as you WILL get contained on 2 bases, you WILL lose a lot of your probes with the initial harass, and you WONT have time to tech up to phoenix (or archons lol) before the game is at a decided loss
attempting to stay on gateway units is basically asking to lose to lings. This isnt SC1, where you can have "critical mass ranged" - its the other way around, and people need to realise this
Its critical mass speedlings where once they get enough you are going to get surrounded and attacked with mutas at same time and lose your entire air attacking army and you can basically type gg right there.
I really dont understand why more pros don't do mutalisk openings instead of hydra. Is there some timing window or something im missing? Yeah, my initial 2gate will force him to make crawlers or lings but its not like there is some timing for me to attack before he has mutalisks out
The ONLY way ive seen that even comes close to defending this opening a blind stargate after you expand as your first tech, and even then you are going to be playing 1 phoenix vs 6 mutas so you are STILL going to take heavy econ harass. Obviously, if you lose your phoenix just type GG
I would really, REALLY like to hear some high level opinions on this (im 600 rating atm on EU)
I really just cannot and out of the 10 or so times ive played vs it recently i havnt managed to win once#
edit: oh and seriously i HATE it when people tell you to ignore the harass and push out lol... Thats basically his chance to "make 30 lings and win the game right there" - kill all your econ, get mutas back in time (easy) and then surround with lings
500 minerals worth of lings can easily kill a 1k protoss army without a problem so dont give me that bs about cost efficiency because mutas force you to go heavy stalker sentry
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On August 02 2010 09:25 BrTarolg wrote:
I know its a rebump but i seriously just have to reiterate
i am sick and tired of this build
REALLY sick and tired
Every single game its 1 mutalisks into some crazy contain
Ive pretty much summed up that you CANNOT 2gate FE vs any sort of 1 base muta play, as you WILL get contained on 2 bases, you WILL lose a lot of your probes with the initial harass, and you WONT have time to tech up to phoenix (or archons lol) before the game is at a decided loss
attempting to stay on gateway units is basically asking to lose to lings. This isnt SC1, where you can have "critical mass ranged" - its the other way around, and people need to realise this
Its critical mass speedlings where once they get enough you are going to get surrounded and attacked with mutas at same time and lose your entire air attacking army and you can basically type gg right there.
I really dont understand why more pros don't do mutalisk openings instead of hydra. Is there some timing window or something im missing? Yeah, my initial 2gate will force him to make crawlers or lings but its not like there is some timing for me to attack before he has mutalisks out
The ONLY way ive seen that even comes close to defending this opening a blind stargate after you expand as your first tech, and even then you are going to be playing 1 phoenix vs 6 mutas so you are STILL going to take heavy econ harass. Obviously, if you lose your phoenix just type GG
I would really, REALLY like to hear some high level opinions on this (im 600 rating atm on EU)
I really just cannot and out of the 10 or so times ive played vs it recently i havnt managed to win once
so what, is your 2gate being beaten back by lings?
can i ask that you post a replay of exactly what is happening?
is ur 2gate getting in their base at all? can you see their buildings? if they have 2gas and only1base and are lairing i would still expand and go a little overboard with cannons and back those up with stalkers
like, 2 cannons behind your gates
and then 2-3 more cannons behind those protecting your exp minerals
then 2 cannons at nat
and stalkers
after the cannons are up bring out the robo while making more stalkers
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On August 02 2010 09:25 BrTarolg wrote:
I know its a rebump but i seriously just have to reiterate
i am sick and tired of this build
REALLY sick and tired
Every single game its 1 mutalisks into some crazy contain
...
This^
I'm a mid diamond and i'm having terrible problems with this build as well. As he mentions you really have to go blindly towards some kind of archon/phoenix build if you're going to have any chance. Lately, I've teched stright towards phoenix after the FE, for scouting purposes and harassing any dislocated OV's. I havn't faced any who have teched muta after seeing the phoenix though.
My old favorite 2robo colo build is dead
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On August 02 2010 09:33 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 09:25 BrTarolg wrote:
I know its a rebump but i seriously just have to reiterate
i am sick and tired of this build
REALLY sick and tired
Every single game its 1 mutalisks into some crazy contain
Ive pretty much summed up that you CANNOT 2gate FE vs any sort of 1 base muta play, as you WILL get contained on 2 bases, you WILL lose a lot of your probes with the initial harass, and you WONT have time to tech up to phoenix (or archons lol) before the game is at a decided loss
attempting to stay on gateway units is basically asking to lose to lings. This isnt SC1, where you can have "critical mass ranged" - its the other way around, and people need to realise this
Its critical mass speedlings where once they get enough you are going to get surrounded and attacked with mutas at same time and lose your entire air attacking army and you can basically type gg right there.
I really dont understand why more pros don't do mutalisk openings instead of hydra. Is there some timing window or something im missing? Yeah, my initial 2gate will force him to make crawlers or lings but its not like there is some timing for me to attack before he has mutalisks out
The ONLY way ive seen that even comes close to defending this opening a blind stargate after you expand as your first tech, and even then you are going to be playing 1 phoenix vs 6 mutas so you are STILL going to take heavy econ harass. Obviously, if you lose your phoenix just type GG
I would really, REALLY like to hear some high level opinions on this (im 600 rating atm on EU)
I really just cannot and out of the 10 or so times ive played vs it recently i havnt managed to win once so what, is your 2gate being beaten back by lings? can i ask that you post a replay of exactly what is happening? is ur 2gate getting in their base at all? can you see their buildings? if they have 2gas and only1base and are lairing i would still expand and go a little overboard with cannons and back those up with stalkers like, 2 cannons behind your gates and then 2-3 more cannons behind those protecting your exp minerals then 2 cannons at nat and stalkers after the cannons are up bring out the robo while making more stalkers
I was going to write a longer reply but it simply is just difficult to articulate all the problems with this
No, there is no scouting issue, and you make it sound like 2gate is an autowin vs lings. Any decent zerg will make lings to defend. If he gets speedlings, then you will at some point or another, lose all your zealots to a critical number of lings unless you continually spam zealots and hinder your own economy (i.e not expanding and giving him MORE time for his lair to pop)
Yes, i see the lair, i see the double gas, i see the lings (or some zergs like to make 2 crawlers and minimal lings instead this works fine too)
Your cannon suggestion is almost rediculous... 1k minerals on cannons when the first 7 mutas pop? Esp given that the mutas can snipe the cannons since they are only 2 at a time. You would have to do some SERIOUS probe cutting in order to place that many cannons, god forbid if you manage to get any stalkers out.
---
Really, economically wise its not a terrible situation for protoss, it ios simply that as the game goes on longer, the more powerful mutas and lings become and the more that zerg can abuse this advantage to either completely overrun and outharass you or take over the whole map and take complete econ advantage
Once again, ihmo blind stargate is the only way to seriously defend this if you plan on FE
edit: just to reiterate with the cannons, even if you had the minerals to place all of those cannons at that point in the game, the more mutas he makes the more cannons you are going to have to make or the more stalkers you will have to make, and as the game goes on longer the more likely he will hit critical mass to be able to demolish one of your cannoned areas without taking casualties.
You have to make sure that all 3 areas are defended equally to avoid losing the game, and that all 3 areas have sufficient mutalik defence. Cannons being immobile, whilst cost effective, are not cost effective if you have to have 3x the usual amount compared to when defending with just one base.
And basically, going stalkers is just absolute suicide vs lings lol
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I don't really liek going mutalisks against protoss mostly because of the huge gas investment and my super ability to play against every protoss that all-ins at some weird timing with gateway units.
Hydra/roach or hydra/ling with infestor support if they have robo bays is usually what i get against Protoss.
Ironically the best equipped to deal with mutalisks in large numbers is terran and i find myself more often than not going muta against Terran to abuse the mech immobility and just be a general pain in the ass (returning the favor for hellion harass).
Theoretically a small group of stalkers and a sentry or two should be able to dispatch of a muta harass force. I haven't found mutalisks particularly effective against gateway units and Stargates in general and if Protoss opts for robo bay I prefer infestors to corruptors.
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On August 02 2010 09:25 BrTarolg wrote:
I know its a rebump but i seriously just have to reiterate
i am sick and tired of this build
REALLY sick and tired
Every single game its 1 mutalisks into some crazy contain
Ive pretty much summed up that you CANNOT 2gate FE vs any sort of 1 base muta play, as you WILL get contained on 2 bases, you WILL lose a lot of your probes with the initial harass, and you WONT have time to tech up to phoenix (or archons lol) before the game is at a decided loss
attempting to stay on gateway units is basically asking to lose to lings. This isnt SC1, where you can have "critical mass ranged" - its the other way around, and people need to realise this
Its critical mass speedlings where once they get enough you are going to get surrounded and attacked with mutas at same time and lose your entire air attacking army and you can basically type gg right there.
I really dont understand why more pros don't do mutalisk openings instead of hydra. Is there some timing window or something im missing? Yeah, my initial 2gate will force him to make crawlers or lings but its not like there is some timing for me to attack before he has mutalisks out
The ONLY way ive seen that even comes close to defending this opening a blind stargate after you expand as your first tech, and even then you are going to be playing 1 phoenix vs 6 mutas so you are STILL going to take heavy econ harass. Obviously, if you lose your phoenix just type GG
I would really, REALLY like to hear some high level opinions on this (im 600 rating atm on EU)
I really just cannot and out of the 10 or so times ive played vs it recently i havnt managed to win once#
edit: oh and seriously i HATE it when people tell you to ignore the harass and push out lol... Thats basically his chance to "make 30 lings and win the game right there" - kill all your econ, get mutas back in time (easy) and then surround with lings
500 minerals worth of lings can easily kill a 1k protoss army without a problem so dont give me that bs about cost efficiency because mutas force you to go heavy stalker sentry
Hydras FEEL like a safer way to play against Protoss to me because they demolish every unit the protoss can get with the exception of high templar and colossus. I don't typically go mutalisks unless they two gate and put a lot of early pressure and I know they wont have the gas to defend against it.
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On August 02 2010 09:59 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2010 09:33 travis wrote:On August 02 2010 09:25 BrTarolg wrote:
I know its a rebump but i seriously just have to reiterate
i am sick and tired of this build
REALLY sick and tired
Every single game its 1 mutalisks into some crazy contain
Ive pretty much summed up that you CANNOT 2gate FE vs any sort of 1 base muta play, as you WILL get contained on 2 bases, you WILL lose a lot of your probes with the initial harass, and you WONT have time to tech up to phoenix (or archons lol) before the game is at a decided loss
attempting to stay on gateway units is basically asking to lose to lings. This isnt SC1, where you can have "critical mass ranged" - its the other way around, and people need to realise this
Its critical mass speedlings where once they get enough you are going to get surrounded and attacked with mutas at same time and lose your entire air attacking army and you can basically type gg right there.
I really dont understand why more pros don't do mutalisk openings instead of hydra. Is there some timing window or something im missing? Yeah, my initial 2gate will force him to make crawlers or lings but its not like there is some timing for me to attack before he has mutalisks out
The ONLY way ive seen that even comes close to defending this opening a blind stargate after you expand as your first tech, and even then you are going to be playing 1 phoenix vs 6 mutas so you are STILL going to take heavy econ harass. Obviously, if you lose your phoenix just type GG
I would really, REALLY like to hear some high level opinions on this (im 600 rating atm on EU)
I really just cannot and out of the 10 or so times ive played vs it recently i havnt managed to win once so what, is your 2gate being beaten back by lings? can i ask that you post a replay of exactly what is happening? is ur 2gate getting in their base at all? can you see their buildings? if they have 2gas and only1base and are lairing i would still expand and go a little overboard with cannons and back those up with stalkers like, 2 cannons behind your gates and then 2-3 more cannons behind those protecting your exp minerals then 2 cannons at nat and stalkers after the cannons are up bring out the robo while making more stalkers I was going to write a longer reply but it simply is just difficult to articulate all the problems with this No, there is no scouting issue, and you make it sound like 2gate is an autowin vs lings. Any decent zerg will make lings to defend. If he gets speedlings, then you will at some point or another, lose all your zealots to a critical number of lings unless you continually spam zealots and hinder your own economy (i.e not expanding and giving him MORE time for his lair to pop) Yes, i see the lair, i see the double gas, i see the lings (or some zergs like to make 2 crawlers and minimal lings instead this works fine too) Your cannon suggestion is almost rediculous... 1k minerals on cannons when the first 7 mutas pop? Esp given that the mutas can snipe the cannons since they are only 2 at a time. You would have to do some SERIOUS probe cutting in order to place that many cannons, god forbid if you manage to get any stalkers out. --- Really, economically wise its not a terrible situation for protoss, it ios simply that as the game goes on longer, the more powerful mutas and lings become and the more that zerg can abuse this advantage to either completely overrun and outharass you or take over the whole map and take complete econ advantage Once again, ihmo blind stargate is the only way to seriously defend this if you plan on FE edit: just to reiterate with the cannons, even if you had the minerals to place all of those cannons at that point in the game, the more mutas he makes the more cannons you are going to have to make or the more stalkers you will have to make, and as the game goes on longer the more likely he will hit critical mass to be able to demolish one of your cannoned areas without taking casualties. You have to make sure that all 3 areas are defended equally to avoid losing the game, and that all 3 areas have sufficient mutalik defence. Cannons being immobile, whilst cost effective, are not cost effective if you have to have 3x the usual amount compared to when defending with just one base. And basically, going stalkers is just absolute suicide vs lings lol
in what way did i make it sound like 2gate is auto win vs lings? what?
and you're already making 2 cannons behind ur gates anyways right? i am simply advocating 4-5 more cannons. with stalkers it should be very easy to hold vs mutas and your 2base vs 1 base advantage will kick in quite quickly
it kind of depends on the map but the maps id advocate 2gate ---> fe the FE is right next to the choke so im actually defending 2 or 2ish spots, not 3. when u have a 2nd base up and he's been on one im not advocating attacking with stalkers... you mass stalkers to go with collossus while your resource advantage kicks in. you won't lose any cannons because you've been massing stalkers to help you defend. then you move out with some collossus and a crapload of stalkers and a couple sentries. sure he can hit your base when you move out but u just keep pressing forward and run him over.
this is how i'd deal with that, anyways.
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So I'm just now finding this thread... Clicking through the pages I'm seeing lots of really interesting stuff, but most these posts are from beta. So that leaves me with questions:
For starters, I never go muta vP. Basically every game for me is Gas, Pool, Expand, Hydra/Roach/Ling.
How well does this 1 base muta play work against the flavor of the month 4 warpgate Protoss player? I can't help but feel like he's going to have an ample amount of stalkers in plenty of time to deal with the muta.
Is anyone still actively using this build post retail? I'd love to see a BO.
I've not downloaded any of the older replays yet either... Can I even play them with the retail version of the game?
Thanks in advance.
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On August 02 2010 11:22 MrBitter wrote:
So I'm just now finding this thread... Clicking through the pages I'm seeing lots of really interesting stuff, but most these posts are from beta. So that leaves me with questions:
For starters, I never go muta vP. Basically every game for me is Gas, Pool, Expand, Hydra/Roach/Ling.
How well does this 1 base muta play work against the flavor of the month 4 warpgate Protoss player? I can't help but feel like he's going to have an ample amount of stalkers in plenty of time to deal with the muta.
Is anyone still actively using this build post retail? I'd love to see a BO.
I've not downloaded any of the older replays yet either... Can I even play them with the retail version of the game?
Thanks in advance.
Problem with that comp is colossi/HTs eat it alive. I go Muta/Ling with an eventual transition to BL + Corruptor.
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i find that as soon as zerg gets his 3rd running. Its game over. Theres no easy way for me harass or attack the 3rd on a big map even with warp in. Nor can i get my 3rd cos of that force. More and more i am going for dark templar. Since its easy to defend 2 bases with a ground army but impossible to move out.
Hopefully the dts will force the zerg to get lazy with his mutas and i can move out but yeahhh.. not my preffered style of play.
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On July 18 2010 14:28 xDaunt wrote:
As long as the protoss has an expansion and scouts the spire while it is being constructed, the protoss should be fine (which is why I prefer robo first builds against zerg). Put down a couple cannons at each mineral line, build two stargates, and crank out phoenixes to take care of the mutas. If you get +1 weapons early, your zealots will shred the zerglings. The real trick is to properly time a transition into either colossi or templar to deal with the inevitable tech switch to hydras.
I'm a firm believer that relying upon ground units to beat mutalisks is a bad idea for toss. The mobility of the mutalisks will just rape you, and your stalker/sentry force doesn't do enough damage to compensate for its relatively slower move speed.
This makes alot of sense to me. Another important thing is u need to pressure Z's economy aswell, letting them power up 3 bases is like a auto gg. 2 gate openings into exp+tech transitions are really strong imo.
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Im a zerg player and I think what the protoss player was getting at here is that mutas force you to multi-task and defend many points at once. Vs Terran I always go banelings and protoss I always go Mutalisks. Yes there are many variable factors but in general mutas work well.
Ill give an example of why they work well. Lets say the map is lost temple and the protoss is on the left hand side 9 oclock and im at the 12. This is a game I recently played. I will fly to the expo from the top and try to attack his probes, if he has defence I will fly away and then fly from the bottom to get his main probes. if that is defended as well, I will fly in from the right and attack his gateways, stargates etc.
The guy was talking about the harrassments and not being able to move out. Yes in a perfect game u would have mass pheonix or whatever u need. Also I find pheonix really hard to fight with mutas. For Zerg players I have found baiting them works quite well. What I mean is if pheonix fly back so I can't hit them, i will star attacking a building etc so they come back and attack me, at that point I will target the pheonix with all my mutas and I get a chance to attack. Also if the pheonix hurt ur mutas, when ur regrouping with ur new mutas heal them with your queens.
The main point is really Mutas give Zerg players scouting as they can fly all around the map checking for expos and when u hit the base u can also see what the protoss is going. I have lost going mutas but find as a zerg player Mutas vs protoss and Banelings vs Terran as the main units I use.
Also I have not come across a protoss player who has used archons / storm on my mutas yet.
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Mutalisk are not the way to go against a protoss player. It absolutely doesnt contain the protoss player (me atleast). When the protoss sees your mutalisk he immediately puts up some cannons at one of his bases, transfers his probes to that base (this is done really quickly). He then pushes out with his whole army and destroy the zerg who only has spines and zerglings. Mutalisk are so awful is combat that they get utterly destroyed when they come back to defend.
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i think the way to beat mutaling is a collosus sentry stalker timing push that is really well prepared and designed to hit RIGHT before the zerg gets ultras. maybe something even like an archon gateway push.
right now mutalisks feel so good against p and t, for me, but against p they have no definitive answer against it so it just grants you a 3rd base. you can take a 3rd or 4th while macroing a strong mutaling army and get ultras. now the transition between ultra and mutaling is the part where the toss can push the zerg. it all comes down to how effective the harass was or how well the zerg can react to this and tech up to ultras faster, and etc.
hydra roach is more of a robust build atm, and it's just solid. mutaling is very good but i don't think it's unbeatable.
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i think the way to beat mutaling is a collosus sentry stalker timing push that is really well prepared and designed to hit RIGHT before the zerg gets ultras.
lol.That is actually what all protoss players do: a timing attack with that unit composition.
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EPT
