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Zerg (2625 minerals, 1125 gas, 60 supply)
15 Roaches
30 zerglings
10 banelings
5 infesters (full energy)
neural parasite, zergling/baneling speed, burrow
While I love infested terran as well, I don't like your example that much because it is an unrealistic army composition. At that stage in the game, the zerg, if he has 5 infestors will probably have on average between 50 and 125 energy each. So instead of 40 infested terran, realistically you could spawn about 15 - 20.
I think when comparing costs the typical assumption should be made that infestors have around 75 - 100 energy, unless you include build orders, and/or the energy upgrade in your analysis.
Saying the infestors all have 200 energy, is similar to those that talk about using queens for defense, always assuming they have lots of energy for transfusion when realistically they are using most of their energy.
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If you've ever watched a pro replay where the protoss throws away all their high templar, you know why the use of the stop command is so critical.
i see this every time i go high templar.
thanks to the op for the post!
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Infested terrans in his current form is pretty nice. I don't understand why everyone complain about it. I mean, comon.. Eggs have 1000 hit point, ITs have more dps than a roach, cost only 25 energy, can be cast while burrowed, is the only ground to air unit beside hydra and queens and beneficiate of the same upgrade than hydra/roaches. They have their role, just ... try them without thinking " ITs are bad, it's a fact and will never change "
Did i forget to tell that u can thrown them on highground without having vision ?
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Okay guys, aside from what I've already said, I'll be saying some more reasons (possibly repeating some) why ITs are not good enough as they are now.
Unless you're fungaling the opponent, they can run away from the ITs. Even if you do fungal the opponent they can run away from the ITs.
Good players will not be running around without available detection unless they had good reason (mobility, pressure, too early on)
Lets say there's a scenario where infestors were in the right situation, and took advantage of using their abilities well (be it IT or any other ability). Not only did they have to wait 50-100+ seconds to use their abilities in the first place, but once they've been used, you have to wait another 150-200+ seconds before you can use them again! Anyone notice a problem with that?
in that time frame 2 upgrades can finish, and you can build 2 or more very expensive units like thors or battlecruisers (out of only 1 production building).
In case I haven't pointed it out clearly enough, what I'm getting at is that infestor doesn't have enough sustainability power. They can explode and deal some damage, but after that they can't fight for a long time, but still use up your precious food. It's the same reason why queen isn't very useful in brood war. Sure queens are cost-effective versus and army of high templar, ultralisks, and siege tanks, (even technically units like goons or gols if you use BL more than once), but it reduces your army size, and is a compeltely vulnerable unit that takes a long time before you can use it, as well as after you use it. Starcraft is a fast-paced games where the opponent will ALWAYS rebuilt their army, even if it was a decisive loss. If the main cause of the victory was due to units like infestors, you will have no ability to do any more damage to the opponent, since their rebuilt force will adequately defend, or even counter.
That said, I think Infested terrrans do have some units, but I wouldn't call them balanced because of it. With the fact that infestors can cast while burrowed, they are quite useful at hitting thor-tank without detection -which is rather rare though - at cost/supply equality. The problem of requiring time investment before and after using them still exists though.
On July 14 2010 07:36 Noocta wrote:
Infested terrans in his current form is pretty nice. I don't understand why everyone complain about it. I mean, comon.. Eggs have 1000 hit point, ITs have more dps than a roach, cost only 25 energy, can be cast while burrowed, is the only ground to air unit beside hydra and queens and beneficiate of the same upgrade than hydra/roaches. They have their role, just ... try them without thinking " ITs are bad, it's a fact and will never change "
Mentioning the upgrades is just stupid, because every ground unit has to be either melee or ranged, and both are useful. Yeah IT's DPS is more than a roach (although it's closer to equal when you consider many targets have 1 armor, and is actually less when you compare 3-3 upgrades), but roach has one of the worst DPSes in the game (alongside the mutalisk and infested terran). Want to compare things? lets compare things. IT only lasts 30 seconds. IT moves 2 to 3 (or more) times slower than virtually every unit in the game. IT has only 50 health and 0 armor. IT doesn't have stimpack, burrowed movement, fast regeneration, or any other special ability. What's my point? probably that it shouldn't be compared to any unit at all in the first place because it costs energy. Although I can say, at an amazingly HIGH 56 to 60 to 106 second build time (egg,energy / egg infestor / egg, energy, infestor), it is definately by far the unit with the smallest power to build time ratio. In a game like Starcraft, that cannot be a good thing. 25 energy is not something to take too lightly. It's 46 seconds of the game, which is enough time to build a lot of low tier and mid-tier units (one to 4 per production facility). You could also call 25 energy 1/4 to 1/8th the cost of an infestor, as I would say it's rather common for an infestor to die after spending 100-200 energy.
Right now I'd say Infestors are like the Dark Archon and Queen of SC2 - very rarely used because of lack of efficiency. High templars are maybe up there, but they have the excellent feedback, and templars are not vulnerable to corruptors or vikings like colossus are.
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Uh I don't see much use for infested terrans. I've only seen one replay where they were used (as a last resort AA unit) and I've never used much of them myself. I do however like that the infester can spawn them while burrowed now and have been meaning to try harassing with that.
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On July 09 2010 11:15 Mjolnir wrote:
That being said, can someone with more game "know-how" or experience please explain to me the possible reasoning for reducing Neural Parasite to 12 seconds?
I've seen this discussed a lot, but I've never seen someone post the obvious answer.
In Phase 1, you could NP a SCV, build a command center and have access to the entire terran tech tree. Now you can't.
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Right now I'd say Infestors are like the Dark Archon and Queen of SC2 - very rarely used because of lack of efficiency.
I can't believe u say that seriously. Even with the neural parasite nerf, Infestors are still probably the best caster unit in the game. Fungal is essential to deal with very mobile units and NP is a good tool to turn a fight at your advantage. IT are just the bonus thing when u need to spend energy before dying or in very particular cases when u need AA quick or to tanki some damages.
Of course infesteds terrans are not as good as a real unit, it's a temporary unit that come as harass mechanic and support.
I don't see your point by saying " Infestors are bad because ITs are not as powerfull as a real unit "
I mean, noone will make infestors just for ITs...
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Updated Infested Terran usage: Burrowed use
A few things changed during the last patch. Namely, the infested terran can now be used burrowed. The OP is still 100% valid, but there is now a new way to use the IT. Shift point rallying.
While burrowed, move the infester to a point near the battle. Make sure that point is within infested terran's casting range. Also make sure it will take at least 2 seconds for the infester to travel there. Then, holding shift, click IT a bunch of times in the area behind to opponents main force.
s (stop)
left click near deployment point
(holding shift) t (infested terran). Do this while infesters are traveling to the point.
(holding shift) clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick
As soon as the burrowed infester reached the rally point, they will blow their entire load load of eggs. Because the infesters will reach the point at almost the same time, they will all shoot their egg loads at almost the same time. The "shift rallying" is really just a method of speeding up egg creation.
Alternative use: I had about 600 energy on some infesters I wasn't using, and I was able to take advantage of this against a protoss when I noticed his expo didn't have any detection. From halfway across the map, I told the infesters to go to the center of his mineral line. I then told them to shift spew eggs on arrival in a semicircular pattern around the nexus, then to return home. Since this was all done with shift queuing, I also doom dropped his main while his army was away. The ITs took out the nexus and all the probes, 2 extractors and 2 pylons.
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RMmanlots, why should you press S before you begin all your shift queueing? I'm new to SC and SC2 so I don't understand the reasoning behind pressing stop before you do anything.
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On July 14 2010 11:56 SolHeiM wrote:
RMmanlots, why should you press S before you begin all your shift queueing? I'm new to SC and SC2 so I don't understand the reasoning behind pressing stop before you do anything.
Because then they immediately do what you tell them to do, rather than doing their current orders first. It also prevents them from running out in front of your army.
Take the following scenario. You have 15 roaches in ctr group 1, 30 lings in ctr group 2, and 5 infesters in ctr group 3. You see the army you want to attack. You 1a2a3a, or tell all three groups to attack move to the same point.
If you cast fungal growth 3 times (f click f click f click), 2 of the infesters will still travel to that spot and die (because they weren't given overriding orders). If you (holding shift) f click click click, all 5 infesters will travel to that spot, then 3 of them will cast fungal growth. In either event, its just a good habit to always hit s before issuing orders.
This applies to all spell casters, but doubly applies to infesters and high templar because they do not have an attack.
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Ran some tests vs bio balls, and seems FG is still more useful than 3 additional ITs. So, use lots of FG as first priority, and with what's left support ITs; they also help a lot in battle. (Edit: After some more tests, I'd say NP > FG+IT > 4 ITs , as long as there are applicable conditions for NP and/or FG. So energy-wise NP>FG>IT in battle efficiency, as long as there are powerful units to NP, and/or clumped balls to FG)
8x ITs per infestor make zerg very powerful vs static defenses and buildings (even if the terran lifts off, oops ITs shoot air). So something like this works well - use a ton of ITs to destroy the static detectors of the enemy, and before he reorganizes, sneak in burrowed infestors in his base, hidden in some corner where he won't scan. Wait to recharge and harass mineral line and buildings (while distracting him with some other attack, for optimal results). This could be combined with sneaking roaches as well, and with baneling busts (ITs + banelings works great, because the enemy attacks the attacking units, so banelings reach the targets). Basically, turtling XvZ is now more difficult than it was before - which is great!
But personally I hope IT's energy gets nerfed (25 is too little), and some other zerg features get buffed instead.
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On July 14 2010 10:15 maragin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 11:15 Mjolnir wrote:
That being said, can someone with more game "know-how" or experience please explain to me the possible reasoning for reducing Neural Parasite to 12 seconds?
I've seen this discussed a lot, but I've never seen someone post the obvious answer. In Phase 1, you could NP a SCV, build a command center and have access to the entire terran tech tree. Now you can't.
You still can, you just need a bunch of infestors to re-Neural Parasite the SCV after 12 seconds.
This is what bothered me in the patch (Don't know the number :s) where there was a timing on Parasite. Don't feel like it makes sense.
Most likely it's a balance issue. During big mech fights where you don't roll over your enemy in 12 seconds, it makes some difference.
1)If NP lasts forever, you can take their Thors from battle and attack the rest of the army.
2)If NP lasts 12 seconds, you can their Thors from battle, but you would be "sort of" forced to attack it in that span of 12 seconds.
That's the way I see it, more of a balance issue. I'm not saying it was needed or anything.
At least the attacking player has a decision to make now
"Can I comfortably survive this battle for 12 seconds without that unit?" Before there was only 1 option, push for the infestor. Once again, not sure if this was a good or needed change.
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On July 14 2010 07:36 Noocta wrote:
Infested terrans in his current form is pretty nice. I don't understand why everyone complain about it. I mean, comon.. Eggs have 1000 hit point, ITs have more dps than a roach, cost only 25 energy, can be cast while burrowed, is the only ground to air unit beside hydra and queens and beneficiate of the same upgrade than hydra/roaches. They have their role, just ... try them without thinking " ITs are bad, it's a fact and will never change "
Did i forget to tell that u can thrown them on highground without having vision ?
Eggs do not have 1000 hit points
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On July 14 2010 14:28 figq wrote:
Ran some tests vs bio balls, and seems FG is still more useful than 3 additional ITs. So, use lots of FG as first priority, and with what's left support ITs; they also help a lot in battle. (Edit: After some more tests, I'd say NP > FG+IT > 4 ITs , as long as there are applicable conditions for NP and/or FG. So energy-wise NP>FG>IT in battle efficiency, as long as there are powerful units to NP, and/or clumped balls to FG)
I completely disagree that NP > FG+ITs, especially with the Neural parasite nerf. Which is better will always depend on the situation. While NP can be situationally golden, it is too inconsistent for regular use. Sure, if the terran is pushing out with mass thors and no tanks, Neural parasite will win the game for you. But how often does that happen?
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IT is now zerg's equivalent of Protoss blink and reapers. With vision given by an overlord/overseer it's now possible to bypass a walled in Terran/toss with a small group of burrowed infestors. Sure with detection this is avoidable but there are counters to blink and reapers as well.
Even if it's only 30 seconds, a surprise group of 12-16 ITs will seriously screw up a base.
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On July 23 2010 19:43 SeaSmoke wrote:
IT is now zerg's equivalent of Protoss blink and reapers. With vision given by an overlord/overseer it's now possible to bypass a walled in Terran/toss with a small group of burrowed infestors. Sure with detection this is avoidable but there are counters to blink and reapers as well.
Even if it's only 30 seconds, a surprise group of 12-16 ITs will seriously screw up a base.
Can you burrow under buildings? I believe I tried one time and it didnt work
A surprise group of 30 roaches will screw up a base aswell though (and be cheaper?)..
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Can you burrow under buildings? I believe I tried one time and it didnt work
A surprise group of 30 roaches will screw up a base aswell though (and be cheaper?)..[/QUOTE]
No you can't burrow under buildings. What I mean is you can throw them over cliffs into your opponent's main, doing damage without busting the wall.
Also, people are thinking of ITs as units, which is a mistake IMO. They cost energy, not resources. If your burrowed infesters can spit the eggs and flee you've lost nothing. I believe ANY damage done in this case is a win. It's like a spy storm only it destroys buildings...and in large numbers they do it quickly.
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On July 08 2010 11:16 Xapti wrote:
Blizzard needs to buff infested terrans. Then I won't have a problem with you saying this stuff, because that is how things SHOULD be.
Even then, I think infested terran is a stupid ability concept.
I think it will get nerfed because of the low energy costs. The infester is a very versatile unit that can be used defensively, offensively and as a harassment unit.
2 Infesters in an enemy proble line with 2 fungal growth and couple of infestet terrans shut down everything. They can be used to block ramps, with fg or delay enemy units or simply damage them and soften them up. 5 full energy infesters equal I think 25 infestet terrans and heir stats are also not bad. Infestet terrans can also be used against air harassment as a defense.
They are an excellent support unit and spellcaster.
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Energy in Starcraft is another word for Time. That being said, time is a valuable resource in an RTS. Buying infestors invests into this abstract "time" resource, and you only get the pay back after this time has passed, not like a regular unit where you can use it right away. This also means that the longer the unit stays alive, the more energy it gets, and the more it pays for itself.
This energy (time) can only be spent on 3 things in this case: ITs, FG, and NP (If you invested the resources/time into the upgrade). The arguement isn't really are ITs good, but are they worth the time when compared to FG and NP and are infestors even worth investing in with this "time" resource.
Personally, I think infestors are a great unit for harass and for gaining a positional advantage with your army, but its a tricky balance to figure out what you can get away with. If you make too few infestors, its almost a waste, and if you're teching to hive you really want to try and make use of the tech you have. If you make too many infestors, your main army will be lacking and you'll get owned because infestors can't really hold their own as an army (even with ITs).
I also think people are looking at the uses in the wrong way. Infestors can be used in multiple situations other than in your main army. They are great at defending small air harass (FG + ITs clean it up well) and they can also throw the ITs up on cliffs to defend from cliff harass or to harass a walled in base as mentioned earlier. They can easily harass an undefended expansion (in certain cases i'd argue that ITs can take out detection such as cannons as well, so not even just expansions without detection). ITs can also be used to destroy siege lines. FG can be used to stop quick forces from retreating, and NP can be used to gain a slight advantage over your enemy's army for 12 seconds.
I don't want to sit here and explain how infestors work to a bunch of people who already know, so I won't go into detail about it, but you get the point. Each ability has its uses and each ability is useful. Is it efficient based on the energy cost? I'm not here to argue that, though that is a balance issue and I believe the abilities are quite balanced based on their energy cost atm. Perhaps NP costing 100 energy is a bit much for only 12 seconds while making the infestor so vulnerable, but once again i'm not an expert.
The reasons explained in this thread for ITs being good aren't really the best reasons if you ask me, though. Sure, throwing a line of them behind the enemy is cool and it draws fire, but I don't think that was the point of the unit in the first place. I think harassment is the point and defense is the point. Infestors are great at harass with good control because you won't lose them if controlled properly, and they are also effective at defense from harass because they are moderately effective at killing small forces with queens.
In conclusion, I think IT is good, but FG is also good and NP has its uses. I don't think that anyone has the knowledge of the game to argue whether or not IT is good or bad, or if FG > IT, because there are so many other factors than just how effective they are in a battle. I personally use all 3 and find them to be necessary to make the infestor a worthwhile investment, considering the time it takes to build/get energy. They are fragile but if you can keep them alive time will pay back your investment more and more. The abilities make it a useful unit while not overpowered; and each ability contributes to the utility and value of the unit in it's own way.
P.S. I suck at writing comprehensive, worthwhile arguments but I am very good at rambling and making an ass of myself, so please try to disregard anything to that end. I'll write a TL;DR version to make up for it. =3
TL;DR - Infestors are a worthwhile investment if you can put the time into them. Each ability has its uses, both for defense and harass as well as gaining an advantage in a battle. It is a risky unit, and requires a lot of control, but can turn the tide of battle into your favor. Nobody has the knowledge to argue whether or not any ability needs to be buffed or nerfed, and I personally believe that they are fine as they are.
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my only question is how do u know which way the semi circle will form? isn't spam clicking the exact same spot a bit unreliable? don't u need to somewhat draw a form a semi circle with your mouse?
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EPT
