Well, now that one of my favorite units is back (the infested terran, for those of you who are slow), I figured I would write a mini tutorial on its proper usage. I've honed their usage in countless combat situations, as well as the unit tester. This tutorial represents my own personal knowledge, and I would appreciate if the TL community would add to my knowledge by suggesting improvements.
1) Micro - Before using infester abilities, always hit the "S" key. This is the stop command. Since you almost always have to hold shift while using infester abilities (if you are using more than 1, which is pretty much every time), you don't want to have your infester go to their current rally point before casting spells.
2) Keep infesters in their own control group. This is for easy access, and so you don't order your entire army to stop. I keep infesters in control group 3.
3) If you have the energy, fungal growth first. FG does 36 damage to each target, so if it hits 10 targets, thats 360 damage...easily worth 3 infested terrans.
4) But you already knew all that...this step is the key. In battle and while holding shift, spawn infested terran as fast as humanly possible in the center of the opponents army. Speed is critical here. If you successfully que it up, the infester will spawn as many as 8 eggs simultaneously when he gets within range. The eggs will fall to the nearest open spot from where you clicked. If you do it right, they will form a semi circle around the opponents army. Reapply fungal growth.
Example:
3 (or whatever control group infesters are in) s (stop command) f (fungal growth) (holding shift) click click (two applications of FG) s (stop) t (infested terran) (holding shift) clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick s (stop) f (fungal growth) click
Its sort of a flank on demand. If you click slightly behind the center of your opponents army, the semi circle will form behind them, cutting off retreat (if you didn't save energy for a second application of FG). You must play around with it a bit in the unit tester, as full scale infested terran battles rarely occur more than once per game.
Infesters work well with roaches, becasue infested terrans share upgrades with roaches, infesters/roaches can both move while burrowed, and their costs stack well in terms of minerals and gas. Infesters are terrible with hydras, because they get bunched up while casting spells. They are so-so with lings, but that combo allows you to hypertech to hive.
Updated Infested Terran usage: Burrowed use
A few things changed during the last patch. Namely, the infested terran can now be used burrowed. The OP is still 100% valid, but there is now a new way to use the IT. Shift point rallying.
While burrowed, move the infester to a point near the battle. Make sure that point is within infested terran's casting range. Also make sure it will take at least 2 seconds for the infester to travel there. Then, holding shift, click IT a bunch of times in the area behind to opponents main force.
s (stop) left click near deployment point (holding shift) t (infested terran). Do this while infesters are traveling to the point. (holding shift) clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick
As soon as the burrowed infester reached the rally point, they will blow their entire load load of eggs. Because the infesters will reach the point at almost the same time, they will all shoot their egg loads at almost the same time. The "shift rallying" is really just a method of speeding up egg creation.
Alternative use: I had about 600 energy on some infesters I wasn't using, and I was able to take advantage of this against a protoss when I noticed his expo didn't have any detection. From halfway across the map, I told the infesters to go to the center of his mineral line. I then told them to shift spew eggs on arrival in a semicircular pattern around the nexus, then to return home. Since this was all done with shift queuing, I also doom dropped his main while his army was away. The ITs took out the nexus and all the probes, 2 extractors and 2 pylons.
On July 08 2010 08:42 RMmanlots wrote: lol, good luck getting 32 infested terrans in a semi circle around the opponents army out of overseers at 125 energy a pop
Can someone explain to me the exact mechanics of shift-queueing? I usually find that my FGs and ITs come out as fast as I can click and all I do his spam T + click. Does it just allow you to queue them up from out of range so that when they get close enough they will unload everything instantly (because IT has zero casting delay?)?
what he means is the semi circling strategy didnt work with overseers now that they are back on infestors they can be used now using htat strat PERSONALLY i preferred it on the overseer but thats just me
Shift queuing does two things. First, it queues up actions. If you want your scouting SCV to go to the watch tower, then to the natural to scout an expo, then to the main, you can shift click on all these destinations and he will go to all of them in order.
Second, shift queuing preserves your current action. Lets say you want to cast 4 fungal growths. you can "f click f click f click f click", or "(holding shift) f click click click click." Holding shift preserves the fungal growth action.
These two things do not work well together. If the infesters are part of your main army (what day[9] calls the "one control group syndrome"), they will obey those orders before shift queuing to the fungals. If you "a move" them with the rest of the army, they will obey that order first before FGing. Because infesters don't have an attack, they simply move to the spot then cast FG. High templar have the exact same problem, which is why you see them thrown away in a pro replay ALL the time.
Also, to those of you who think the infested terran is useless, I'm guessing you haven't tried it since the damage buff. It does 8 damage every 0.86 seconds, or about 9.3 dps. An infester with full energy can cast 8 at a time, for a total dps of about 74 damage per second. They also have 400 hp.
The real value though, is that all the ranged units in the opponents ball will pick a unique target from the semi circle. They will fire at the ITs rather than your more valuable units.
I just want to mention that we don't know whether the infested terran ability is identical to the way it was before. Maybe it operates by targeting enemy units instead.
On July 08 2010 08:30 RMmanlots wrote: 1) Micro - Before using infester abilities, always hit the "S" key. This is the stop command. Since you almost always have to hold shift while using infester abilities (if you are using more than 1, which is pretty much every time), you don't want to have your infester go to their current rally point before casting spells.
2) Keep infesters in their own control group. This is for easy access, and so you don't order your entire army to stop. I keep infesters in control group 3.
4) But you already knew all that...this step is the key. In battle and while holding shift, spawn infested terran as fast as humanly possible in the center of the opponents army. Speed is critical here. If you successfully que it up, the infester will spawn as many as 8 eggs simultaneously when he gets within range. The eggs will fall to the nearest open spot from where you clicked. If you do it right, they will form a semi circle around the opponents army. Reapply fungal growth.
1) If you're the kind of person that hits the hotkey BEFORE holding down shift, you do not need to tell them to stop. It's the only logical way of giving units orders. 2) Not necessarily necessary due to (1), but probably useful. Generally I might group infestors with hydralisks or other slow units, since they are the same speed and ranged. 4) IMO casting infested terrans is just pretty useless. Because of the time it takes for them to hatch you can either run away or kill infestors before they can do anything. Speedlings are automatically zerg's anti-retreat and/or flanker unit because they move so fast. Sure infested terrans can wall, but they are stupidly slow, have less combined health than 2 lings, and have a really short timed life. Maybe you have fun with them - or even consider them worth it and useful - but I am certain they are a completely inefficient unit as they are right now.
To explain about your last point, yes a full energy infestor worth of ITs is useful, but it takes a long time to generate energy, from 0 energy it takes about 377 game seconds to get to. In that time frame, one can build much more firepower to take you out before you can accumulate enough energy. Also, Let's say you cast a bunch of ITs... all the opponent needs to do is run away from them. The ITs won't be able to do anything unless they were spawned right beside an immobile target. Against a planetary fortress or any production facility they are screwed because of attack(with splash)/repair or because they can lift off. You're left with throwing out all your infestor's energy just to kill a few depots vs terran. Vs zerg you'd be dead before you could do it, and while it's nice vs protoss, 1 colossus can own an infinite number of infested terrans (negating positional data such as surrounds), and units like blink stalkers are really good at killing infestors.
The thing I love about the infester midgame is their low larva/mineral cost. You can make 3-4 infesters along with a handful of lings/roaches/spine crawlers, and then power drone your third. This is simply not as effective without the IT.
When the opponent moves out, queue up a round of lings/roaches, and try to delay the push with FG and ling backstabs. If he is able to engage you, the IT provides an instant, on the spot, and effective army out of thin air.
Xapti, we can argue all day but it will accomplish nothing. As soon as the beta is back online (I'm hoping for tomorrow), give this a try in the unit tester, so we can put this to rest with finality.
On July 08 2010 11:16 Xapti wrote: Blizzard needs to buff infested terrans. Then I won't have a problem with you saying this stuff, because that is how things SHOULD be.
Even then, I think infested terran is a stupid ability concept.
Infested Terran did get a buff. They last longer (30 seconds, up from 20 seconds) and they can be cast while burrowed. They last longer which can be quite nice for drops, as it means a 50% damage increase if they are not killed. The "cast while burrowed is probably situational, but I like it. I would much prefer they also do it for fungal growth but I guess that would be a "bit" overpowered
I just thought I should mention that it only takes one infestor's full load of infested terran to focus down a hatchery/nexus/command center. You could completely ignore the mineral line and just destroy that, without even putting your infestor in too much danger. Or, assuming you had 2 infestors, you'd only need half energy, so you could spend the rest on fungal growthing the workers. Of course, this assumes almost no interference.
But the best part is that you're not losing any money if they kill some of the infested terrans, since they were going to die anyway. All you're losing is energy that could arguably be spent better elsewhere.
On July 08 2010 16:55 TedJustice wrote: I just thought I should mention that it only takes one infestor's full load of infested terran to focus down a hatchery/nexus/command center.
Infested terrans do 8 damage/hit. Cooldown is 0.8606 This means a DPS of 9.29368. Lifetime of 1 infested terran is 30 (according to Zelniq). This means a total damage output of 278.81.
If the energy cost is still 25, a full infestor spawns 8. This means total damage output = 2230 dagamge. (1951 with 1 armour).
Let us assume a Orbital Command, without additional armor. It has an armour of 1. One full infestor does 1951 damage, enough to kill the OC in 23 seconds. Including the spawn time, this means you need 28 seconds.
Following timings are including 5 second spawn time OC with no upgrade: 28 seconds to kill OC with upgrade: Survives with 105 HP left PF: Unlikely you'll kill it
Hatchery: 24.2143 seconds to kill Lair: 32.66 seconds to kill Hive: 548 HP left
Nexus: TBD, need to check up on shield and shield armor. But probably around the same timing.
EDIT: Think I got it. 10.08 seconds to remove shields from Nexus (without shield upgrade) 11.5286 seconds to kill without shields. Total: 26.6086 seconds to kill.
On July 08 2010 16:55 TedJustice wrote: I just thought I should mention that it only takes one infestor's full load of infested terran to focus down a hatchery/nexus/command center.
Infested terrans do 8 damage/hit. Cooldown is 0.8606 This means a DPS of 9.29368. Lifetime of 1 infested terran is 30 (according to Zelniq). This means a total damage output of 278.81.
If the energy cost is still 25, a full infestor spawns 8. This means total damage output = 2230.
Let us assume a Orbital Command, without additional armor. It has an armour of 1. One full infestor does 1951 damage, enough to kill the OC in 23 seconds. Including the spawn time, this means you need 28 seconds.
Following timings are including 5 second spawn time OC with no upgrade: 28 seconds to kill OC with upgrade: Survives with 105 HP left
Hatchery: 24.2143 seconds to kill Lair: 32.66 seconds to kill Hive: 548 HP left
Nexus: TBD, need to check up on shield and shield armour. But probably around the same timing.
Rather than number crunching, I just tried it out in the unit tester.
Nexus went down, without any shield upgrades anyway.
They take a while to hatch out of the egg, that's my main complaint.
Infested terrans are good to throw on cliffs that have a tank on them, if you don't have drop or air. Better now with burrow as you don't risk getting shot moving to the cliff.
Finally the IT back on the infestor =). I used to use it a whole lot as i would open infestor against terran, the fungal growth + IT combo was great against banshees. And allowed for a quick hive tech.
I was a little sad when they removed it and replaced it with frenzy ( which I never used ). I promptly stopped going infestors as an opening because of the unviability against air.
Now however, with the IT being cast from the infestor while burrowed, I'm gonna have a whole lot of fun .
Infester opening is just a good strat vs. terran in general. It shuts down banshee harass, is ridiculous against the bioball, and allows for fast tech to Ultras if they go mech. Its rather weak vs. 1 base all in/timing attacks, so you have to constantly scout.
Infestors will not be using infested terrans in ZvZ - simple as that.
Terrans can repair command center, and/or lift it off and fly away (AFAIK they move faster than ITs)
Protoss are the only ones kinda screwed.
The buff to 30s life is rather significant, as it offers a 50% potential damage total boost without that boost infested terrans would not kill a nexus in time. I am still not sure how well they will be, since 8 infested terrans would still take a long time to kill a nexus (over 20s for 8-9 of them PLUS an extra 10(?) seconds in the egg, which is a serious problem), regardless of the fact they can actually do it, because almost anything could do it, given time.
If you just used 40 zerglings instead of 2 infestors (similar equivalent costs), you'd be dealing much more damage. Hell, even 16 zerglings would have 50% better DPS than 8 infested terrans. While lings are sacrificial, infestors are also sacrificing energy, and that's worth a lot. Also, infestors will not necessarily survive, such as if they have anti-air units and/or detectors; although it's true they would have the survival advantage. Overall, SC is about making justifiable sacrifices... infestors are a less solid sacrifice to make compared to zerglings, due to their cost, as well as the fact hat's it's not necessary to get away with ZERO physical losses when you're destroying someone's NEXUS.
Well the n1 thing is now you can burrowmove your infestors to your enemys mineral line then unburrow, cast fungel groth(75) and then spawn 1 infested terran that will oneshot all the enemy workers (well works vs drones and probes 2 shots on scv). That way you need only 1 infestor with 100 energy to kill alot of workers if your enemy doesn´t react fast enough.
Or just spam him with IT while burrowd I hope that really has changed would be so n1. But i guess since IT are so slow all the workers would just run away.
On July 09 2010 04:29 Xapti wrote: Infestors will not be using infested terrans in ZvZ - simple as that.
Terrans can repair command center, and/or lift it off and fly away (AFAIK they move faster than ITs)
Protoss are the only ones kinda screwed.
The buff to 30s life is rather significant, as it offers a 50% potential damage total boost without that boost infested terrans would not kill a nexus in time. I am still not sure how well they will be, since 8 infested terrans would still take a long time to kill a nexus (over 20s for 8-9 of them PLUS an extra 10(?) seconds in the egg, which is a serious problem), regardless of the fact they can actually do it, because almost anything could do it, given time.
If you just used 40 zerglings instead of 2 infestors (similar equivalent costs), you'd be dealing much more damage. Hell, even 16 zerglings would have 50% better DPS than 8 infested terrans. While lings are sacrificial, infestors are also sacrificing energy, and that's worth a lot. Also, infestors will not necessarily survive, such as if they have anti-air units and/or detectors; although it's true they would have the survival advantage. Overall, SC is about making justifiable sacrifices... infestors are a less solid sacrifice to make compared to zerglings, due to their cost, as well as the fact hat's it's not necessary to get away with ZERO physical losses when you're destroying someone's NEXUS.
I don't get what your point are. Obviously infested terrans aren't optimal if you want to take down a nexus or a command center. Having 2 infestors offers you MUCH more versatility than the equivalent cost of zerglings. You can use it in combination with FG to protect against harrass and as support units in close combats. Considering the out damages the roach, casting a bunch of IT's can really be effective in certain situations. If not you use fungal or neural.
infested terrans, you use the infestor to burrow into the enemy base, get behind the mineral line pop - infested terrans hopefully some worker kills. if it fails reburrow the Infestor and run away (unless scanned and then it's splat for the infestor!)
nihlon, I'm referring only to infested terran use. Infestor is indeed useful for FG, and perhaps NP (debatable).
archerofaiur, TLO mentions a ZvT build where zerg goes zergling > infestor > ultralisk designed to counter mech. NP can be used on thors, and occasionaly tanks, while ultra-ling keeps pressure(suicide runs) on them so that you can economy/macro advantage. Personally, I'm not a fan of it.
Problem with using infested terrans for worker harass/kills are the IT's eggs. Even with FG if you build the eggs (ITs) first, the opponent will have a moment of time to run his workers away before you can FG them. If you FG first, the FG will wear off (allowing workers to escape) before the eggs hatch (I THINK, unsure about this).
A few banelings dropped into a mineral line is instant, guaranteed worker kills. I think it's no contest between baneling and any other zerg unit for killing workers.
On July 09 2010 06:30 Xapti wrote: nihlon, I'm referring only to infested terran use. Infestor is indeed useful for FG, and perhaps NP (debatable).
archerofaiur, TLO mentions a ZvT build where zerg goes zergling > infestor > ultralisk designed to counter mech. NP can be used on thors, and occasionaly tanks, while ultra-ling keeps pressure(suicide runs) on them so that you can economy/macro advantage. Personally, I'm not a fan of it.
Problem with using infested terrans for worker harass/kills are the IT's eggs. Even with FG if you build the eggs (ITs) first, the opponent will have a moment of time to run his workers away before you can FG them. If you FG first, the FG will wear off (allowing workers to escape) before the eggs hatch (I THINK, unsure about this).
A few banelings dropped into a mineral line is instant, guaranteed worker kills. I think it's no contest between baneling and any other zerg unit for killing workers.
I still don't understand your point. You can't discuss the usefulness of the IT's if you don't take into consideration the infestors complete abilities in relation to it. (or as a comparison with zerglings as you did) Very few players will make infestors solely for it's.
And as for harass, you would assume that the ability to cast IT's while burrowed will make it easier to harass since he might not see it coming and move his workers in time. And with fungal you could potentially do a lot of damage.
Decent thread to get people to use INFESTORS better, unfortunately my enjoyment reading it was brought down drastically by your constant misspelling of "Infestor" (The correct spelling of the name of the unit) :o
First off, I'll state that I play random exclusively in the SC2 Beta.
That being said, can someone with more game "know-how" or experience please explain to me the possible reasoning for reducing Neural Parasite to 12 seconds?
Is it:
a) an attempt balance Infestors since they now have the Infested Terran ability? b) an attempt to balance an overpowered spell? c) an attempt to stop Infestors from stealing units and keeping them in strong defensive positions? d) some alternative I'm not thinking of? [please explain]
Because I really don't get it. Infestors die remarkably easily, are put in danger with the range of NP (i.e. Siege Tanks), and are shut down for the duration of NPs use (they can't move and the NP target can't go very far). I suppose the argument could be made that most battles don't last 12 seconds but I've seen some pretty drawn out fights that last at least that long, and some much longer. I personally believe this is a really huge nerf on an ability that keeps a unit previlously perceived as lackluster, useful.
On July 09 2010 06:30 Xapti wrote: A few banelings dropped into a mineral line is instant, guaranteed worker kills. I think it's no contest between baneling and any other zerg unit for killing workers.
The adventage infested terrans have is that you're not losing any money.
It all depends on what you're doing. If you've got infestors sitting around at full energy, there isn't really any reason not to try some IT harass.
As for the eggs, a player might get lucky and see them, or notice them on the minimap, but the best thing about them is that they won't attack until they're hatched, so there won't be any notification of them until it's too late if they don't see them before that.
And the hatch time really isn't that long. If the workers do run away, you can always try sniping out the hatchery/CC/Nexus. And if you fail, you can now get your infestors out of there with no real losses, unless they have detection.
Annother thing i thought about IT's, you can use them like zealot bombs while burrowed. Simply take your infestor, burrow it, move into range of the tank, and send an IT at the tank. Im not sure, but you may have to use 2 though.
First off, I'll state that I play random exclusively in the SC2 Beta.
That being said, can someone with more game "know-how" or experience please explain to me the possible reasoning for reducing Neural Parasite to 12 seconds?
Is it:
a) an attempt balance Infestors since they now have the Infested Terran ability? b) an attempt to balance an overpowered spell? c) an attempt to stop Infestors from stealing units and keeping them in strong defensive positions? d) some alternative I'm not thinking of? [please explain]
Because I really don't get it. Infestors die remarkably easily, are put in danger with the range of NP (i.e. Siege Tanks), and are shut down for the duration of NPs use (they can't move and the NP target can't go very far). I suppose the argument could be made that most battles don't last 12 seconds but I've seen some pretty drawn out fights that last at least that long, and some much longer. I personally believe this is a really huge nerf on an ability that keeps a unit previlously perceived as lackluster, useful.
I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.
I personally never used NP myself for the reasons you described. It costs 100 energy, make the infester completely useless, require an upgrade, etc... Lets not forget the most significant of all, NP puts a gigantic KILL ME sign on the infesters head.
Remember possession from WC 3? A Banshee would sacrifice herself to mind control an enemy unit.
Banshee - Two food unit. Possession permanent. Lost the banshee, gained full 100% control of unit. Could move all over the map. Balanced because possession took 1 second to cast, and banshee was vulnerable to ranged damage while casting.
Infester - Three food unit. Possession lasts 12 seconds. Lost use of the infester, gained control of the unit within a limited range. Could be canceled by killing infester or walking out of range. Balanced because it is shitty.
In any event, blizzard is attempting to balance neural parasite by lowering the usefulness of the spell, rather than giving it a critical weakness. The real slap in the face is that the spell was already fairly balanced (maybe even underpowered) due to death of the infester canceling the spell.
But, this won't effect my play, because I never used NP.
On July 09 2010 11:43 AnxietE wrote: Annother thing i thought about IT's, you can use them like zealot bombs while burrowed. Simply take your infestor, burrow it, move into range of the tank, and send an IT at the tank. Im not sure, but you may have to use 2 though.
YES YES YES! This is about as hard counter to sieged tanks as you can get. Toss a marine handgrenade right at the tank and watch his buddies blow him up. I haven't been able to use it yet, but I am excited.
On July 09 2010 11:43 AnxietE wrote: Annother thing i thought about IT's, you can use them like zealot bombs while burrowed. Simply take your infestor, burrow it, move into range of the tank, and send an IT at the tank. Im not sure, but you may have to use 2 though.
This is certainly possible, seen here in the editor:
I think the infested terran ability fits where it's at right now, we haven't really had enough time to try it out yet though and I think many people are pretty rusty from the beta downtime. But for what it's worth my experience with it so far is surprisingly awesome. I think most people totally ignore the whole ability because "it sucks compared to FG" and then also totally ignore it when they are in a battle, it's like FFFFFFF and when no infestor has the mana for any more fungal growths people just ignore the unit. I'v tried to use it as often as possible just because I think it's fun, but even during big battles it has been really helpful to just use the "useless" energy you got left after fungal growthing on infested terrans, even if they die before they hatch they've soaked some damage that would otherwise be on your other units and if they survive they do decent damage. I have also sniped like 3x cc/hatch/nex with it, I admit that wasn't against the best players but it really doesn't take long for 24 infested terrans to snipe it and there's often a good chance to make it out of there alive so I really think it got potential as harassment as well.
As I said though, noone has played enough yet so I got no idea how viable it really is in a really good game situation but people shouldn't be so quick to call it useless piece of shit unit.
First off, I'll state that I play random exclusively in the SC2 Beta.
That being said, can someone with more game "know-how" or experience please explain to me the possible reasoning for reducing Neural Parasite to 12 seconds?
Is it:
a) an attempt balance Infestors since they now have the Infested Terran ability? b) an attempt to balance an overpowered spell? c) an attempt to stop Infestors from stealing units and keeping them in strong defensive positions? d) some alternative I'm not thinking of? [please explain]
Because I really don't get it. Infestors die remarkably easily, are put in danger with the range of NP (i.e. Siege Tanks), and are shut down for the duration of NPs use (they can't move and the NP target can't go very far). I suppose the argument could be made that most battles don't last 12 seconds but I've seen some pretty drawn out fights that last at least that long, and some much longer. I personally believe this is a really huge nerf on an ability that keeps a unit previlously perceived as lackluster, useful.
I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.
probably reason b. i disagree with the nerf, i think proper np usage rewards skill and crisp execution. but i guess zerg probably needed a nerf after they got buffed a ton
I think the idea behind the NP nerf was probably that Zerg could gain an overwhelming advantage by controlling a ton of powerful units at once and leaving none alive while defending... or possibly going with near-exclusively Infestors against compositions that involve mostly or entirely key units (mass BCs).
I still disagree with the change as the first situation is not so bad when you remember that Infestors can't move during NP and die when the wind blows, and the second situation simply encourages cheaper, mobile support units to snipe controlling Infestors.
Just a funny note: When "egg-bombing" tanks as in that video, it is indeed most useful to use 1-2 eggs at once, because eggs actually have 100 HP and 2 armor for two or rarely three tank shots, while infesties themselves only have 50 HP and 0 (+1) armor. Thus, if you use a bunch of eggs quickly, they take more splash and non-tank damage, and also hatch to take fewer tank shots. Yes, the eggs are actually better than their contents while the tanks are alive.
Just watched DaBoOoO's stream were he had 5 cloaked banshees coming at him and he didn't have any detection and only infestors and lings. FG no. 1 + IT's -> 4 banshees gone in a flash. FG no 2 + IT's -> the last banshee gone. GG. They are defiantly not useless.
I'm a crappy bronze player, but I still found it...awesome how I got pwned here by infested Terrans. I was like "oh my" *watchinges my own destruction and forgetting to defend
1. If you're playing games where people don't notice the eggs building in your worker line, you're at too low of a level to even bother discussing strategy at all because you can do anything to win.
2. The difference between casting an egg burrowed and quickly unburrowing, casting, and burrowing again is negligible for something like worker harass. The useful thing for casting while burrowed is vs the siege tank.
3. Vs siege tanks, zerg has a higher chance of casting eggs beside them now that infestors can stay burrowed. Nonetheless, infestors not only cost more than siege tanks, but require a fair bit of energy to cast enough eggs - both time and money not being on one's side - It's like broodling in BW. This strategy won't even work at all if they spot the moving infestors and scan, or do safe pushes with missile turrets, or wait for a raven. Also, in the video example, the biggest problem one might notice, is that the zerg still looses, even when they used so many infested terrans on the tanks. In the second part where the eggs are thrown 1 at a time, as soon as the first egg is thrown, the terran would scan, and destroy the infestors. It's much more viable to attempt a NP (as weak as it is right now) than IT bombing. Zealot bombing is different for 2 reasons: 1) it doesn't use gasy units that are slow and can die when found 2) tanks don't overshoot like they did in brood war. You'd have to drop MULTIPLE zealot on EACH tank no matter how many tanks they had. Oh, another thing is that zealots had a buttload more health - Infested terrans will die to 1 tank shot. eggs do have more health (100), but they will only be targetted if there are no other hostile units around. If that was the case then just 1 scan will reveal the infestors, making a problem for the zerg.
1) Try to win microing the zerg army WITHOUT using infested terran. If you can find a way to win, I'll be shocked.
2) Try to win microing the zerg army using all energy on infested terrans. If you can find a way to lose, I'll be shocked.
Before too many people get their panties in a bunch saying "d00d, the other side isn't microing ROFL", recall how hard it is to micro while bing fungal growthed (that, and note the massive resource difference).
Edit: Remember, when casting infested terrans, clicking speed is everything.
While I love infested terran as well, I don't like your example that much because it is an unrealistic army composition. At that stage in the game, the zerg, if he has 5 infestors will probably have on average between 50 and 125 energy each. So instead of 40 infested terran, realistically you could spawn about 15 - 20.
I think when comparing costs the typical assumption should be made that infestors have around 75 - 100 energy, unless you include build orders, and/or the energy upgrade in your analysis.
Saying the infestors all have 200 energy, is similar to those that talk about using queens for defense, always assuming they have lots of energy for transfusion when realistically they are using most of their energy.
Infested terrans in his current form is pretty nice. I don't understand why everyone complain about it. I mean, comon.. Eggs have 1000 hit point, ITs have more dps than a roach, cost only 25 energy, can be cast while burrowed, is the only ground to air unit beside hydra and queens and beneficiate of the same upgrade than hydra/roaches. They have their role, just ... try them without thinking " ITs are bad, it's a fact and will never change "
Did i forget to tell that u can thrown them on highground without having vision ?
Okay guys, aside from what I've already said, I'll be saying some more reasons (possibly repeating some) why ITs are not good enough as they are now.
Unless you're fungaling the opponent, they can run away from the ITs. Even if you do fungal the opponent they can run away from the ITs.
Good players will not be running around without available detection unless they had good reason (mobility, pressure, too early on)
Lets say there's a scenario where infestors were in the right situation, and took advantage of using their abilities well (be it IT or any other ability). Not only did they have to wait 50-100+ seconds to use their abilities in the first place, but once they've been used, you have to wait another 150-200+ seconds before you can use them again! Anyone notice a problem with that? in that time frame 2 upgrades can finish, and you can build 2 or more very expensive units like thors or battlecruisers (out of only 1 production building).
In case I haven't pointed it out clearly enough, what I'm getting at is that infestor doesn't have enough sustainability power. They can explode and deal some damage, but after that they can't fight for a long time, but still use up your precious food. It's the same reason why queen isn't very useful in brood war. Sure queens are cost-effective versus and army of high templar, ultralisks, and siege tanks, (even technically units like goons or gols if you use BL more than once), but it reduces your army size, and is a compeltely vulnerable unit that takes a long time before you can use it, as well as after you use it. Starcraft is a fast-paced games where the opponent will ALWAYS rebuilt their army, even if it was a decisive loss. If the main cause of the victory was due to units like infestors, you will have no ability to do any more damage to the opponent, since their rebuilt force will adequately defend, or even counter.
That said, I think Infested terrrans do have some units, but I wouldn't call them balanced because of it. With the fact that infestors can cast while burrowed, they are quite useful at hitting thor-tank without detection -which is rather rare though - at cost/supply equality. The problem of requiring time investment before and after using them still exists though.
On July 14 2010 07:36 Noocta wrote: Infested terrans in his current form is pretty nice. I don't understand why everyone complain about it. I mean, comon.. Eggs have 1000 hit point, ITs have more dps than a roach, cost only 25 energy, can be cast while burrowed, is the only ground to air unit beside hydra and queens and beneficiate of the same upgrade than hydra/roaches. They have their role, just ... try them without thinking " ITs are bad, it's a fact and will never change "
Mentioning the upgrades is just stupid, because every ground unit has to be either melee or ranged, and both are useful. Yeah IT's DPS is more than a roach (although it's closer to equal when you consider many targets have 1 armor, and is actually less when you compare 3-3 upgrades), but roach has one of the worst DPSes in the game (alongside the mutalisk and infested terran). Want to compare things? lets compare things. IT only lasts 30 seconds. IT moves 2 to 3 (or more) times slower than virtually every unit in the game. IT has only 50 health and 0 armor. IT doesn't have stimpack, burrowed movement, fast regeneration, or any other special ability. What's my point? probably that it shouldn't be compared to any unit at all in the first place because it costs energy. Although I can say, at an amazingly HIGH 56 to 60 to 106 second build time (egg,energy / egg infestor / egg, energy, infestor), it is definately by far the unit with the smallest power to build time ratio. In a game like Starcraft, that cannot be a good thing. 25 energy is not something to take too lightly. It's 46 seconds of the game, which is enough time to build a lot of low tier and mid-tier units (one to 4 per production facility). You could also call 25 energy 1/4 to 1/8th the cost of an infestor, as I would say it's rather common for an infestor to die after spending 100-200 energy.
Right now I'd say Infestors are like the Dark Archon and Queen of SC2 - very rarely used because of lack of efficiency. High templars are maybe up there, but they have the excellent feedback, and templars are not vulnerable to corruptors or vikings like colossus are.
Uh I don't see much use for infested terrans. I've only seen one replay where they were used (as a last resort AA unit) and I've never used much of them myself. I do however like that the infester can spawn them while burrowed now and have been meaning to try harassing with that.
On July 09 2010 11:15 Mjolnir wrote: That being said, can someone with more game "know-how" or experience please explain to me the possible reasoning for reducing Neural Parasite to 12 seconds?
I've seen this discussed a lot, but I've never seen someone post the obvious answer.
In Phase 1, you could NP a SCV, build a command center and have access to the entire terran tech tree. Now you can't.
Right now I'd say Infestors are like the Dark Archon and Queen of SC2 - very rarely used because of lack of efficiency.
I can't believe u say that seriously. Even with the neural parasite nerf, Infestors are still probably the best caster unit in the game. Fungal is essential to deal with very mobile units and NP is a good tool to turn a fight at your advantage. IT are just the bonus thing when u need to spend energy before dying or in very particular cases when u need AA quick or to tanki some damages. Of course infesteds terrans are not as good as a real unit, it's a temporary unit that come as harass mechanic and support.
I don't see your point by saying " Infestors are bad because ITs are not as powerfull as a real unit " I mean, noone will make infestors just for ITs...
A few things changed during the last patch. Namely, the infested terran can now be used burrowed. The OP is still 100% valid, but there is now a new way to use the IT. Shift point rallying.
While burrowed, move the infester to a point near the battle. Make sure that point is within infested terran's casting range. Also make sure it will take at least 2 seconds for the infester to travel there. Then, holding shift, click IT a bunch of times in the area behind to opponents main force.
s (stop) left click near deployment point (holding shift) t (infested terran). Do this while infesters are traveling to the point. (holding shift) clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick
As soon as the burrowed infester reached the rally point, they will blow their entire load load of eggs. Because the infesters will reach the point at almost the same time, they will all shoot their egg loads at almost the same time. The "shift rallying" is really just a method of speeding up egg creation.
Alternative use: I had about 600 energy on some infesters I wasn't using, and I was able to take advantage of this against a protoss when I noticed his expo didn't have any detection. From halfway across the map, I told the infesters to go to the center of his mineral line. I then told them to shift spew eggs on arrival in a semicircular pattern around the nexus, then to return home. Since this was all done with shift queuing, I also doom dropped his main while his army was away. The ITs took out the nexus and all the probes, 2 extractors and 2 pylons.
RMmanlots, why should you press S before you begin all your shift queueing? I'm new to SC and SC2 so I don't understand the reasoning behind pressing stop before you do anything.
On July 14 2010 11:56 SolHeiM wrote: RMmanlots, why should you press S before you begin all your shift queueing? I'm new to SC and SC2 so I don't understand the reasoning behind pressing stop before you do anything.
Because then they immediately do what you tell them to do, rather than doing their current orders first. It also prevents them from running out in front of your army.
Take the following scenario. You have 15 roaches in ctr group 1, 30 lings in ctr group 2, and 5 infesters in ctr group 3. You see the army you want to attack. You 1a2a3a, or tell all three groups to attack move to the same point.
If you cast fungal growth 3 times (f click f click f click), 2 of the infesters will still travel to that spot and die (because they weren't given overriding orders). If you (holding shift) f click click click, all 5 infesters will travel to that spot, then 3 of them will cast fungal growth. In either event, its just a good habit to always hit s before issuing orders.
This applies to all spell casters, but doubly applies to infesters and high templar because they do not have an attack.
Ran some tests vs bio balls, and seems FG is still more useful than 3 additional ITs. So, use lots of FG as first priority, and with what's left support ITs; they also help a lot in battle. (Edit: After some more tests, I'd say NP > FG+IT > 4 ITs , as long as there are applicable conditions for NP and/or FG. So energy-wise NP>FG>IT in battle efficiency, as long as there are powerful units to NP, and/or clumped balls to FG)
8x ITs per infestor make zerg very powerful vs static defenses and buildings (even if the terran lifts off, oops ITs shoot air). So something like this works well - use a ton of ITs to destroy the static detectors of the enemy, and before he reorganizes, sneak in burrowed infestors in his base, hidden in some corner where he won't scan. Wait to recharge and harass mineral line and buildings (while distracting him with some other attack, for optimal results). This could be combined with sneaking roaches as well, and with baneling busts (ITs + banelings works great, because the enemy attacks the attacking units, so banelings reach the targets). Basically, turtling XvZ is now more difficult than it was before - which is great!
But personally I hope IT's energy gets nerfed (25 is too little), and some other zerg features get buffed instead.
On July 09 2010 11:15 Mjolnir wrote: That being said, can someone with more game "know-how" or experience please explain to me the possible reasoning for reducing Neural Parasite to 12 seconds?
I've seen this discussed a lot, but I've never seen someone post the obvious answer.
In Phase 1, you could NP a SCV, build a command center and have access to the entire terran tech tree. Now you can't.
You still can, you just need a bunch of infestors to re-Neural Parasite the SCV after 12 seconds. This is what bothered me in the patch (Don't know the number :s) where there was a timing on Parasite. Don't feel like it makes sense.
Most likely it's a balance issue. During big mech fights where you don't roll over your enemy in 12 seconds, it makes some difference. 1)If NP lasts forever, you can take their Thors from battle and attack the rest of the army. 2)If NP lasts 12 seconds, you can their Thors from battle, but you would be "sort of" forced to attack it in that span of 12 seconds. That's the way I see it, more of a balance issue. I'm not saying it was needed or anything.
At least the attacking player has a decision to make now "Can I comfortably survive this battle for 12 seconds without that unit?" Before there was only 1 option, push for the infestor. Once again, not sure if this was a good or needed change.
On July 14 2010 07:36 Noocta wrote: Infested terrans in his current form is pretty nice. I don't understand why everyone complain about it. I mean, comon.. Eggs have 1000 hit point, ITs have more dps than a roach, cost only 25 energy, can be cast while burrowed, is the only ground to air unit beside hydra and queens and beneficiate of the same upgrade than hydra/roaches. They have their role, just ... try them without thinking " ITs are bad, it's a fact and will never change "
Did i forget to tell that u can thrown them on highground without having vision ?
On July 14 2010 14:28 figq wrote: Ran some tests vs bio balls, and seems FG is still more useful than 3 additional ITs. So, use lots of FG as first priority, and with what's left support ITs; they also help a lot in battle. (Edit: After some more tests, I'd say NP > FG+IT > 4 ITs , as long as there are applicable conditions for NP and/or FG. So energy-wise NP>FG>IT in battle efficiency, as long as there are powerful units to NP, and/or clumped balls to FG)
I completely disagree that NP > FG+ITs, especially with the Neural parasite nerf. Which is better will always depend on the situation. While NP can be situationally golden, it is too inconsistent for regular use. Sure, if the terran is pushing out with mass thors and no tanks, Neural parasite will win the game for you. But how often does that happen?
IT is now zerg's equivalent of Protoss blink and reapers. With vision given by an overlord/overseer it's now possible to bypass a walled in Terran/toss with a small group of burrowed infestors. Sure with detection this is avoidable but there are counters to blink and reapers as well.
Even if it's only 30 seconds, a surprise group of 12-16 ITs will seriously screw up a base.
On July 23 2010 19:43 SeaSmoke wrote: IT is now zerg's equivalent of Protoss blink and reapers. With vision given by an overlord/overseer it's now possible to bypass a walled in Terran/toss with a small group of burrowed infestors. Sure with detection this is avoidable but there are counters to blink and reapers as well.
Even if it's only 30 seconds, a surprise group of 12-16 ITs will seriously screw up a base.
Can you burrow under buildings? I believe I tried one time and it didnt work
A surprise group of 30 roaches will screw up a base aswell though (and be cheaper?)..
Can you burrow under buildings? I believe I tried one time and it didnt work
A surprise group of 30 roaches will screw up a base aswell though (and be cheaper?)..[/QUOTE]
No you can't burrow under buildings. What I mean is you can throw them over cliffs into your opponent's main, doing damage without busting the wall.
Also, people are thinking of ITs as units, which is a mistake IMO. They cost energy, not resources. If your burrowed infesters can spit the eggs and flee you've lost nothing. I believe ANY damage done in this case is a win. It's like a spy storm only it destroys buildings...and in large numbers they do it quickly.
On July 08 2010 11:16 Xapti wrote: Blizzard needs to buff infested terrans. Then I won't have a problem with you saying this stuff, because that is how things SHOULD be.
Even then, I think infested terran is a stupid ability concept.
I think it will get nerfed because of the low energy costs. The infester is a very versatile unit that can be used defensively, offensively and as a harassment unit.
2 Infesters in an enemy proble line with 2 fungal growth and couple of infestet terrans shut down everything. They can be used to block ramps, with fg or delay enemy units or simply damage them and soften them up. 5 full energy infesters equal I think 25 infestet terrans and heir stats are also not bad. Infestet terrans can also be used against air harassment as a defense.
They are an excellent support unit and spellcaster.
Energy in Starcraft is another word for Time. That being said, time is a valuable resource in an RTS. Buying infestors invests into this abstract "time" resource, and you only get the pay back after this time has passed, not like a regular unit where you can use it right away. This also means that the longer the unit stays alive, the more energy it gets, and the more it pays for itself. This energy (time) can only be spent on 3 things in this case: ITs, FG, and NP (If you invested the resources/time into the upgrade). The arguement isn't really are ITs good, but are they worth the time when compared to FG and NP and are infestors even worth investing in with this "time" resource.
Personally, I think infestors are a great unit for harass and for gaining a positional advantage with your army, but its a tricky balance to figure out what you can get away with. If you make too few infestors, its almost a waste, and if you're teching to hive you really want to try and make use of the tech you have. If you make too many infestors, your main army will be lacking and you'll get owned because infestors can't really hold their own as an army (even with ITs).
I also think people are looking at the uses in the wrong way. Infestors can be used in multiple situations other than in your main army. They are great at defending small air harass (FG + ITs clean it up well) and they can also throw the ITs up on cliffs to defend from cliff harass or to harass a walled in base as mentioned earlier. They can easily harass an undefended expansion (in certain cases i'd argue that ITs can take out detection such as cannons as well, so not even just expansions without detection). ITs can also be used to destroy siege lines. FG can be used to stop quick forces from retreating, and NP can be used to gain a slight advantage over your enemy's army for 12 seconds.
I don't want to sit here and explain how infestors work to a bunch of people who already know, so I won't go into detail about it, but you get the point. Each ability has its uses and each ability is useful. Is it efficient based on the energy cost? I'm not here to argue that, though that is a balance issue and I believe the abilities are quite balanced based on their energy cost atm. Perhaps NP costing 100 energy is a bit much for only 12 seconds while making the infestor so vulnerable, but once again i'm not an expert.
The reasons explained in this thread for ITs being good aren't really the best reasons if you ask me, though. Sure, throwing a line of them behind the enemy is cool and it draws fire, but I don't think that was the point of the unit in the first place. I think harassment is the point and defense is the point. Infestors are great at harass with good control because you won't lose them if controlled properly, and they are also effective at defense from harass because they are moderately effective at killing small forces with queens.
In conclusion, I think IT is good, but FG is also good and NP has its uses. I don't think that anyone has the knowledge of the game to argue whether or not IT is good or bad, or if FG > IT, because there are so many other factors than just how effective they are in a battle. I personally use all 3 and find them to be necessary to make the infestor a worthwhile investment, considering the time it takes to build/get energy. They are fragile but if you can keep them alive time will pay back your investment more and more. The abilities make it a useful unit while not overpowered; and each ability contributes to the utility and value of the unit in it's own way.
P.S. I suck at writing comprehensive, worthwhile arguments but I am very good at rambling and making an ass of myself, so please try to disregard anything to that end. I'll write a TL;DR version to make up for it. =3
TL;DR - Infestors are a worthwhile investment if you can put the time into them. Each ability has its uses, both for defense and harass as well as gaining an advantage in a battle. It is a risky unit, and requires a lot of control, but can turn the tide of battle into your favor. Nobody has the knowledge to argue whether or not any ability needs to be buffed or nerfed, and I personally believe that they are fine as they are.
my only question is how do u know which way the semi circle will form? isn't spam clicking the exact same spot a bit unreliable? don't u need to somewhat draw a form a semi circle with your mouse?
EPT
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I hope that really has changed would be so n1. But i guess since IT are so slow all the workers would just run away. 
