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This guide was very informative. I hope you do more in the future (ZvT ZvZ) and I really hope other gg players follow your initiative and write their own guides on TL.
I have one question related to this quote...
On June 29 2010 05:05 Sheth wrote:
I prefer going 13 pool 13 gas 15 overlord 16 drone and then producing some zerglings and upgrading speed whenever you get 100 gas.
How many zerglings is some zerglings? You mentioned 8 zerglings for "if your opponent went for a forge outside of hise base" Is 8 always your standard number?
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United States2095 Posts
Bensio Thanks :D
Strike, its awesome that you have a blog to help players! It totally depends on the map and the situation. Vs. protoss I generally like broodlords the best in just about any situation. If my opponent has a large pheonix or void ray force I might prefer ultralisks, or if they have too many sentries ultras are exceptional! So its very place / time sensitive, but lately I've been seeing more uses for the great ultralisk!
Fates, Thanks and I'll hopefully work on a ZvT vs. Mech article. (Its tough!!!!)
monkh not right now, I deleted my replay section, but I'll look for one or just make one after beta comes back up.
Interfect that is very true thanks for that! I will update it with that in it. Also I havn't seen many people do two extracters (with the exception of an 8 pool). I don't think it feels natural to me. I havn't seen any reseach on it, or done research on it personally like I have with the other 3 builds I mention so I can't really let you know with any surety.
CatZ Thanks Paulo <3!
Xapti Let me seperate these two posts and make 1 just for ur question cuz it requires some explanation!
Nairul depending on the builds I try and make just enough to defend there offense or just enough to make them make alot of defence. I know thats not super informative so I'll try and be more explanatory. I continue to make zerglings non-stop if I see the protoss with 1 gateway and no other buildings, I will continue to make zerglings non-stop if I see the p with 2 gateways. If the protoss has started a forge along with his gate then I might make just enough to defend the zealots that hes already produced, but I won't continue to make them because usually he will then be planning on defending and not attacking too much.
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Awesome, thanks Sheth, always a baller.
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United States2095 Posts
Xapti, this post is all for you ;p
If you had read a bit more maybe you would have found some of the reasoning behind why I do this, but I'll explain it a little more in depth.
You said "For SC2, things are quite different, and getting an early gas and (slightly) early pool like that is going to throw oneself behind on minerals"
I find this to be extremely in accurate. Lately more and more protoss' have been intelligent enough to simply leave their probe at the zerg's natural. This no matter how u do it, doesn't allow you to get a hatchery until you have zerglings out. If you do something like 14 pool this will end up being a 18/19 hatchery. If you do a 15 pool, it might even be a 21/22 hatchery. (Don't forget protoss can simply put a pylon down!) This will completely destroy the ammount of minerals you have. You will have way too many minerals. To avoid that execsive ammount I do this pool with speed build. You might be thinking then why not just go 13 pool and not get the gas and speed. Thats a possibility, but I believe the speed allows me to deal with early zealot harass well. At higher levels 10 gate zealot harass can cause SERIOUS problems for a zerg that goes simply 13 pool. (Especially on close positions!) The speed allows surround much easier, and you can put quicker pressure on the protoss once you have stopped it.
I wasn't by any means only talking about when protoss goes FE first. You would have definitely figured that out if you had read more! :D Also the important note I have up top says that after the drones get 100 gas they go back on minerals. This allows you to get all the minerals you need to have a proper amount of drones or zerglings and queens depending on what you need for early game.
Also notice how I didn't call your build stupid 
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On June 29 2010 07:47 Xapti wrote:
I didn't read it all because there was a lot to read, but it looks like the only thing you recommended was a 13pool 13 gas opening?
Versus protoss that sounds kinda stupid.
Come on, man. You say you didn't read it, then you say he only recommends one thing, and then you say that one thing is stupid. That's the triple crown of useless comments. "I didn't read it, so I'll assume everything after the first sentence was fluff. And oh yeah--that first sentence was pure shit!"
Take 3 minutes and read the freaking post before you spend 10 minutes typing up why you think it's stupid!
Good post Sheth. I was a mid-level diamond P before close of beta, and PvZ was by far my strongest match-up because I knew how to make Z players pay for reaching for that fast expo before they could defend it. My builds would have been quite weak against a fast zergling speed into expand, but fortunately, I almost never ran into that. Here's hoping this won't change following your post!
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A lot of good info in here but its hard to parse.
Would be much better if you fixed the layout.
It should be like
basic points about zvp:
.....
Build:
Speedling build blah blah
Why? Blah blah
Toss openings
2 gate/1 gate forge:
blah blah
1 base:
blah blah cyber core
other points:
...
midgame plan:
The guide is good but you kinda go all over the place bouncing back and forth.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
nice!^^
especially like the tips at the end.
except the infested terran one.
that ones stupid.
:D
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Thank you for the guide, good stuff in it 
You said in your article that if he goes fast forge + cannon in his natural and tries to fast expand you should do lings and try to poke in (or protoss fast expand in general). How do you feel instead of trying to find a whole to squeeze in, you just double expand and power like crazy? Of course have to be careful and know when to stop powering and just make tons of lings and spines to prepare for his push. I have seen machine doing this against WhiteRa in their matches.
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On June 29 2010 09:50 Artosis wrote:
nice!^^
especially like the tips at the end.
except the infested terran one.
that ones stupid.
:D
WOW BM! 'Dan' that tip was mad cool, especially cause you can use TWO! infested terrans and probably kill a good 4 or so workers, it sounds sick, ima have to try it!
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If I see everyone playing like Sheth once the game is out again, I will hunt you down. =(
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United States2095 Posts
Kcdc Thanks alot for the support!!
Slayer91, thanks for the constructive criticism. I tried to bunch it up by topics, at first is early tips (10ol extract + 9ol) and then it went into my build order (13pool 13 gas) and then it went into the three or so different openings the protoss could go. Followed by the little tips at the end. Maybe next time I'll put nice headers or something in between.
Dan, Thanks <3
Piski, Yes I really like to do that too. Thats why I tried to say "PURE DRONES" at one point, so the zerg can start possibly taking a 3rd and macro'ing up a storm. Machine has definetly been a huge inspiration to me in ZvP.
Catz, LoL <3
Antimage, There shall be one thousand Sheth's, you will never know when a new Sheth will appear. And you will always wonder if its the real Sheth. Will the real slim Sheth please stand up?.... And I will never stand up.
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Kind of off-topic, but what does zealot step micro accomplish? Can you hit and step back before the zergling gets its second attack off, thereby effectively evening out zealot and zergling rate of attack?
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On June 29 2010 10:45 kcdc wrote:
Kind of off-topic, but what does zealot step micro accomplish? Can you hit and step back before the zergling gets its second attack off, thereby effectively evening out zealot and zergling rate of attack?
Prevents the Zealots from getting surrounded.
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agreed with the making some lings early on. most competent players know zerg will expand at every opportunity. every second u delay the natural with a worker is golden especially since drones are the weakest ones of all. against toss, it takes a long long time to get rid of a probe with just drones.
u sac a bit of early econ to get those lings but once u get them with speed, toss has to always be ready for ling run bys. even getting 4 lings into the toss main can suck a lot -.-. plus once u get the queen out, u can make massive amount of drones w/e u wanna macro. priority should be to not die instead of trying to be greedy with the early expansion imo.
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nice post, although you only really covered how to survive a zealot rush (by going 13pool and massing speedlings). While this works well, and you will rarely die you also won't advance in a good position into the lategame unless they go all in so you should have also explain the advantages of going 15pool or 14hatch (I guess where our styles diverge, I never 13pool :p). Considering that most tosses do some sort of early zealot harrassment, knowing how to defend it is important, especially when they will follow up with an expo + cannons right after on most maps. A spine crawlers and queens with transfusion can work wonders against later zealot rushes, and not waste larvae on lings (not to mention having 5 spine crawlers is awesome in the midgame to push), although in SC2 I don't find myself running out of larvae that often.
I really like the part about not going early hatchery of steppes of war, a lesson I didn't learn until the end of beta and cost me MANY games.. On this map you can only really do a pool before 14 or die to the innevitable zealot rush.
nice guide chosen <3
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Wow awesome guide Sheth. Thanks so much. I really appreciate when big name players such as yourself take the time to help out the sc2 community (I'm sure everyone else on tl.net appreciates it too).
I was rank 1 diamond in my division for a while (not that it means much anyways), and I still found this really helpful. It would be great to hear your perspective for ZvZ and ZvT. Thanks again.
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Really nice guide, I dont play zerg but good read nonetheless
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United States2095 Posts
truceji Thanks bud.
Ostojiy yea I wasn't saying your build was worse or anything, just that I'm only really familiar with how to prevent things like 2 gate and 1 gate early pushes with 13 pool. (I've tried so many games vs. a great protoss while going 15 pool and I'll die if its remotely close positions no matter what!) However if there is no rush its definetly a nice macro build, however I would argue that my build order can lead to a nice mid game and end game macro advantage as well.
Thanks bontez, I will definetly work on a ZvT guide next I think!
TheAntZ Glad you read it! =)
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While I can agree with some things I don't agree with getting speed that fast before expanding that is one of the things I don't like about your build but overall seems pretty solid.
You don't need speed to kill the probe blocking your hatchery (to me it seemed like you implied that you need to get speed to stop a probe from blocking your hatch when just 2 lings can do that unless he's doing an aggressive opening then obviously make more hehe).
Good to see you writing a guide though don't really see a lot of these from top players  .
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Thank you very much for this guide.. I mean wow I was a platinum player and I never thought about doing 20 drones all on minerals first but now it all makes sense. No wonder some zerg player macro really good. Tnx sheth
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EPT
